You're Not Confused — You're Being Manipulated | Ep. 004

In this explosive episode, Lisa and Dr. Peter Salerno drop a truth bomb that will change how you see manipulation forever. They dive deep into the uncomfortable reality that abusers manipulate on purpose, exploring whether manipulators need to be "smart" or just strategic, the real reasons behind their behavior, and why being manipulated leaves you feeling so confused and traumatized. This is a must-listen episode that will validate your experiences and help you see the truth clearly.

Key Topics Covered:

• The shocking truth: Abusers manipulate intentionally, not accidentally

• Intelligence vs. strategy - what it really takes to be a manipulator

• The psychology behind why abusers choose to manipulate

• Why manipulation creates such deep confusion and trauma

• How to recognize when you're being deliberately confused

• Breaking free from the "maybe they don't know what they're doing" mindset

Resources Mentioned:

• Trauma Bond Recovery Group Coaching Program

• Unbreakable and Irreplaceable: Rebuilding After The Trauma Bond

• "The Nature and Nurture of Narcissism" by Dr. Peter Salerno

• "Traumatic Cognitive Dissonance" by Dr. Peter Salerno

About Dr. Peter Salerno:

Dr. Peter Salerno is a licensed therapist with a PsyD and MS in Clinical Psychology. He specializes in personality disorders and trauma, with extensive training in these areas. He's the author of two groundbreaking books on narcissism and trauma.

Follow him on Instagram 

Transcript

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Unknown
This is real talk with Lisa Sunny, Relationships Uncensored, the podcast. They don't want you listening to.

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Unknown
When you're in an abusive relationship, I think you spend an unbelievable amount of time being confused. And I have always felt like it's on purpose. So I really want to welcome Doctor Peter Salerno, psychotherapist and author of two incredible books,

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Unknown
one of which I want to kind of bring up today, which is traumatic cognitive dissonance. But the other one, which was the first that I read, was The Nature and Nurture of Narcissism.

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Unknown
Both of those books were just unbelievably eye opening.

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Unknown
And the reason I want to focus on the one about cognitive dissonance is because, like, that's the confusion, right? That's that's what makes this

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Unknown
so hard to get out of these relationships. Tell me, what led you to actually coined that term traumatic cognitive dissonance? What's different from regular cognitive dissonance to you?

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Unknown
To your point, what you just mentioned?

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Unknown
I'm

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just referring to this sort of dissonance.

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also traumatic because

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it's not just like an internal clash,

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based on something, you know, benign or even the discomfort of it isn't necessarily related to something that

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originates in

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ourselves.

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manifests as a result of being intentionally

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manipulated, coerced,

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and sort of messed with psychologically by somebody whose intentions are to create,

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the perception in you that you're confused when actually

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you're not confused, right?

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it's not a confusion that's originating inside of you. So

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I feel like that's a bit more of a traumatic

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internal clash

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because you're

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essentially developing contradictory beliefs, not because you don't have the ability to understand what's going on, because

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that ability is being compromised by somebody

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screwing with you, essentially.

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Unknown
So it's interesting because I don't know, like

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as a coach from where I sit, this constant, like he can't be doing it on purpose.

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Unknown
They're not really trying to confuse me. Right. And in my experience, both my personal experience and my professional experience, it is on purpose. That's the goal. Confusion serves a real purpose here. So the manipulation

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and that sort of mixed message, the hot, the cold, he loves me and he cheats on me. Or I realize she as well.

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it's manufactured.

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Right. This confusion is something that is intentional.

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I think 100%.

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I think

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there are people who exist, whether we want to believe it or not, because it

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it affects our,

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preferred idea of what human beings are all about.

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But I believe there are people out there who have,

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a predatory nature,

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and they enter into relationships specifically for the purpose of intentionally

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gaining an advantage over someone.

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And the best way to gain an advantage over someone is to

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get them to question their reality

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and sort of mess with them in a way where

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they are not completely sure

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what's going on. They also don't have any evidence to prove it because it's invisible.

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Unknown
but yeah, I mean, there's an intentionality

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to this for sure.

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I think that's the one of the hardest parts, though, to to really believe when I think back to my own experience, even like

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on purpose, it just feels like

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and what I hear often is that this person isn't smart enough.

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Unknown
I don't know if you hear that even in your work, like my partner is not smart enough to be this manipulative or this strategic.

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And I think for me, I see it as more instinctual.

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Is that

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how you see it?

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100%, first of all,

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there really is no

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correlation between intelligence and manipulation.

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You don't have to be intelligent to be a good manipulator.

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That's not really where it stems from. It's not about being like a master manipulator or like a mad

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genius.

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It's really more about

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I'm going to throw a bunch of stuff out and see what sticks.

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You know, so a lot of it is,

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there almost like conducting these social experiments with your

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mind and heart as they go along. It's not always premeditated

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in the sense that the manipulation is premeditated, but the strategy is sometimes spur of the moment.

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Unknown
Like, what can I get away with here? What can I try?

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Unknown
And I've even seen this in clinical practice with some clients who are highly manipulative, like,

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they're going to

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try to lead me down a track where

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let me see what I can say

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to get the response that I want,

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you know?

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I would say that certain people across the board are doing this with everybody

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from the cashier at the grocery store to the,

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person at the bank to their significant other. It's almost like their way, like you said, it's this instinctual way of being,

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it's in their nature to be

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very manipulative and coercive.

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And it's 100% intentional because it seems to work for them.

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Unknown
Yeah. Well, so something I hear a lot too is

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why do they all have the same playbook?

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Unknown
You know, if I make a video and like, do a skit or something and show,

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what someone says

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often, not always, but I'm using personal experiences and people are like, oh my God, that's my person.

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Unknown
That happened to me. He said the same thing. They said the same thing.

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Unknown
there's a joke like the Narcissist University, they all go to the same university and they learn how to do this. But

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Unknown
what you're describing is sort of this social test, the strategy. I'm going to say this and see if it gets me that reaction.

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Unknown
So do you think that they're using,

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life experiences even over multiple relationships? And it's like they know that certain things work, or do they study you to manipulate you?

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Unknown
Yeah, I think it's both. I think the idea that it's like they've all attended the same university or have the same education or mindset is a great way to also,

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validate

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the argument that I make a lot, which is that

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this has to do with these innate traits,

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and they're universal traits, you know,

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the people who are problematic

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seem to have the same

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or similar

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like levels of these

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pathological traits that happen to be antagonistic,

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manipulative,

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coercive. Right.

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Like

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this need for controlling people,

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and getting them to do what you want. So

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Unknown
I think it's a way of being for them.

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Unknown
You know, it's sort of like a lot of people. The way of being for a lot of people is,

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how can I be the most generous, kind,

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altruistic? There's other people out there that are like,

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Unknown
how can I

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be conniving and cunning and manipulative enough to get

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what I want without necessarily needing to,

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be accountable for it?

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Unknown
So to them, it is a playbook, and I think

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Unknown
they see relationships often as a game, too. It's like a win lose. It's not a

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how do I connect best with this person, but what do I get from it? And then how can I get what I want from it?

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Unknown
Yeah, it's so exploitative, right? When you are in this relationship thinking, what can I get from this relationship?

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Unknown
Or

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combined or worse,

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I deserve to get from this relationship and I don't have to give. I always feel like reciprocity is just chucked right out the window. It's not about that at all. And yet

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they're nice sometimes. And I really like that's the piece that I think is so confusing, is that we think that that contrast means

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they're nice sometimes and they're mean sometimes.

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Unknown
So it's from trauma and it's their mom was mean or whatever. We don't actually see it as a strategy, especially if we're

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Unknown
seeing it as something like they're not smart enough, which arguably some are. But again, it's not about intelligence. No more than why we stay. It has to do with our own intelligence. I think there's a lot more going on here.

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Unknown
But

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Unknown
the piece that is,

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Unknown
I think the hardest to believe is that

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the contrast in their behaviors is not an accident.

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People see this as your good,

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and so you do bad things as opposed to you're a bad person who's pretending to be kind. It's like

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too hard to hold that belief.

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Unknown
What makes that so hard for people?

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Unknown
Do you think?

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Unknown
Yeah.

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Unknown
I was going to ask you the same question. I think,

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what I know about

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what? Like kind of what we're taught about human beings is if somebody is being,

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manipulative or if they're harming someone, it's coming from a place of defense,

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like they're protecting something in themselves. There's a vulnerability or an insecurity that needs to be

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masked

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or, you know,

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not dealt with.

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And so

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it's like a lashing out

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because of a

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reaction or a response, because they're feeling threatened and,

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I think that we're taught that at an early age. I think that we're taught that,

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in the institutions we attend, whether it's,

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school.

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Unknown
Definitely psychology. Psychology operates off the premise that people only do things because, you know, they feel like they're backed into a corner or they're threatened or they're compensating.

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Unknown
It's not true. But

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that's the the narrative we've been

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fed since we were little.

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Unknown
And then,

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I know other institutions like,

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if you're raised in a religious

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institution, you know, where there's a certain, you know, it's like giving everyone the benefit of the doubt. Everyone's basically good. They just,

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they're wayward because something bad happened and you can steer them in the right direction.

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Unknown
I think there's all kinds of,

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associations made with it,

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like it's coming from this place of defensiveness or hurt.

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Unknown
There's just not a lot of evidence to really back that up.

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Unknown
Yeah. Which I know is very controversial, even though it like facts should not be controversial.

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Unknown
But I know that it's sort of not everybody knows that which, you know,

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read the nature and nurture of narcissism.

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It's life changing to read that

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research just for those that have not already read that book, but

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Unknown
I think, you know, you're you're really making me realize, especially as a parent, I've got little children and you think about

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what we teach children in the schoolyard. It's like if somebody is mean to you. Not all parents teach this, of course, but if somebody is mean to you, you know, maybe they have something hard going on at home.

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Unknown
You know, respond with kindness, or at least leave them alone and just, you know,

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feel something for them. And I know we're probably trying to create empathy, but also like, know there's people who will just hurt you for no reason,

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unprovoked.

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Unknown
And

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Unknown
I know for me, I got myself to a place while I was like, well, that's narcissists or that's people with cluster B or, you know, disordered.

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Unknown
You can kind of almost understand, hey, their brains work differently. Say what you want. What about when it's not someone who is pathological, somebody who's not disordered?

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Unknown
Are they still creating the confusion on purpose? And does that come from trauma?

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Unknown
I think there's people who are not disordered who can create confusion on purpose. I don't think it's because they're traumatized.

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Unknown
I would appreciate if people could start seeing trauma as like a risk factor

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that exacerbates something that's already there, rather than it being like the end all, be all cause of anything that's going wrong.

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So for example,

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like a bully

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the playground or someone who takes someone's

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cookie from their lunch every day, or someone who takes lunch money

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they're not,

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blindly going into that,

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and engaging because

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they have some deep seated

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pain

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and they just need to express it in that way.

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Unknown
I mean, that's just that's kind of silly to think that everybody who tries to

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gain an advantage over someone, even children, that they're really just

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like, wounded or they don't know better or they're operating completely unconsciously or they're having trouble at home.

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I know that

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teachers and nurses and people who interact with children on a daily basis, I don't think any of them truly believe

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that across the board.

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But we're almost expected to give that narrative.

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Unknown
Well, you don't know what's going on at home with them or,

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Unknown
you know, well, they don't have as much money as you. So that's why they need to they need to steal your lunch. It's like

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you're making excuses.

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Unknown
Making excuses. Yeah. You know, the expression hurt people? Hurt people.

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Unknown
I sure do, but I actually made a video on that once.

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Unknown
I hate it. Oh my God, do I hate that? That phrase, it made sense to me my whole life. And now I'm like,

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no,

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actually, absolutely no. I, I reject that notion completely because I've been hurt and I don't

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actively choose to hurt people.

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Unknown
So many people who are traumatized, childhood trauma adults, trauma.

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We are not hurting people.

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Unknown
So when we look at it as abusive ness

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is a choice.

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Unknown
I mean, I have a intentional habit of making things simple, sometimes, maybe even bordering oversimplified, but I think that in some contexts it's like,

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Unknown
yes, there's factors and risk factors, as you said, and environment plays a role in all these things. But fundamentally, like you're choosing to be abusive, that's just

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you can choose to not be

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horrendous

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if you want it to,

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but it serves you to not

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stop.

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Unknown
Yeah,

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Unknown
I totally agree with that.

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Unknown
I think people are trying their best to find a reason,

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you know,

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and like the hurt people, hurt people.

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Unknown
Reason is,

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Unknown
you know, it's trying to like, make sense of how somebody could get to the point where they

00:11:49:17 - 00:11:53:19
Unknown
mistreat someone so badly. And there are associations between,

00:11:53:21 - 00:11:54:22
Unknown
some people who

00:11:54:22 - 00:11:57:03
Unknown
are mistreated and then they go on to mistreat people.

00:11:57:04 - 00:11:57:22
Unknown
There's also

00:11:57:22 - 00:12:03:01
Unknown
a lot of other reasons for why that might be the case. It's not necessarily just that it's because they were hurt because, like you said,

00:12:03:01 - 00:12:06:00
Unknown
there are so many exceptions to that rule. I know people who have been

00:12:06:00 - 00:12:07:07
Unknown
absolutely

00:12:07:07 - 00:12:09:23
Unknown
brutalized in their childhood were

00:12:09:23 - 00:12:13:03
Unknown
neglected with no support system whatsoever.

00:12:13:03 - 00:12:15:01
Unknown
And they are stable

00:12:15:01 - 00:12:18:05
Unknown
people who are kind and generous and,

00:12:18:07 - 00:12:19:17
Unknown
not abusive, you know,

00:12:19:17 - 00:12:21:02
Unknown
and it's not simple

00:12:21:02 - 00:12:26:13
Unknown
or it's not to say that, like, their childhood didn't inform their their view of the world, but they

00:12:26:13 - 00:12:28:07
Unknown
are choosing not to be abusive.

00:12:28:07 - 00:12:28:17
Unknown
So

00:12:28:17 - 00:12:30:04
Unknown
we can't just say that it's

00:12:30:04 - 00:12:33:16
Unknown
a direct consequence and then there's nothing you can do about it. I just, I think that's

00:12:33:16 - 00:12:40:14
Unknown
that's an excuse. That's just not valid. Yeah. Well, it's interesting because I think that abusive people tend to, you know, like, hey, that's who I am.

00:12:40:14 - 00:12:41:04
Unknown
That's

00:12:41:04 - 00:12:44:08
Unknown
I didn't learn better, but it really it becomes an excuse.

00:12:44:12 - 00:12:45:17
Unknown
I didn't know better.

00:12:45:17 - 00:12:55:10
Unknown
Since when is that an excuse? I mean, to be fair, you talk about even, like, the criminal justice system, you can't go like. Well, I didn't know that I had to pay my taxes, or I didn't know that I had to file it in a certain way. It's like

00:12:55:10 - 00:12:58:03
Unknown
now you're an adult. You needed to know that you're not.

00:12:58:03 - 00:13:03:13
Unknown
You can't just say, I didn't realize that it would hurt someone, or you have to function in the world.

00:13:03:13 - 00:13:05:15
Unknown
Yeah, from the right kind of place.

00:13:05:15 - 00:13:06:13
Unknown
It's like they,

00:13:06:15 - 00:13:08:10
Unknown
they see, but they just disagree.

00:13:08:10 - 00:13:11:17
Unknown
I know, I mean, everyone has to pay their taxes, but they go.

00:13:11:17 - 00:13:13:21
Unknown
But I don't because I disagree,

00:13:13:21 - 00:13:17:04
Unknown
you know, it's some conspiracy were being were being screwed.

00:13:17:10 - 00:13:18:02
Unknown
What? Okay,

00:13:18:02 - 00:13:19:15
Unknown
let's say that there's some

00:13:19:15 - 00:13:20:21
Unknown
tiny truth to that.

00:13:20:23 - 00:13:23:08
Unknown
Yeah. There's an advantage to be gained for the taxes

00:13:23:08 - 00:13:25:22
Unknown
that we have to pay for. Someone's benefiting from it.

00:13:25:22 - 00:13:29:17
Unknown
That. But there's a lot of, you know, someone someone's benefiting from.

00:13:29:17 - 00:13:30:07
Unknown
You know,

00:13:30:07 - 00:13:36:12
Unknown
we have to stop at red lights so we don't cause accidents. Are we going to not stop because someone's benefiting from that signal?

00:13:36:14 - 00:13:36:23
Unknown
Like,

00:13:36:23 - 00:13:39:08
Unknown
it's it's sort of like now we're talking about,

00:13:39:10 - 00:13:46:15
Unknown
we have to collaborate and cooperate to make things run smoothly. And then there's people who just say, no, I actually don't have to do that.

00:13:46:15 - 00:13:52:13
Unknown
at some time, I think that's an intention. Yeah. It's entitlement. It's intentional resistance. It's not because

00:13:52:13 - 00:13:53:12
Unknown
they're so,

00:13:53:12 - 00:13:57:02
Unknown
wounded inside that they just don't know better and they don't know how to follow the rules.

00:13:57:02 - 00:14:01:14
Unknown
that hot and cold, though, you know, that they're good and they're bad.

00:14:01:14 - 00:14:03:08
Unknown
I think what is tricky

00:14:03:08 - 00:14:04:22
Unknown
and what gets people is

00:14:04:22 - 00:14:06:22
Unknown
people are not one thing.

00:14:06:22 - 00:14:07:09
Unknown
Right.

00:14:07:09 - 00:14:13:05
Unknown
I don't think we put people into like, you are all good and you are all bad. That's not a category or not something I've ever thought about.

00:14:13:05 - 00:14:15:22
Unknown
It's also a very black and white way of thinking, which is

00:14:15:22 - 00:14:16:11
Unknown
not

00:14:16:11 - 00:14:17:02
Unknown
typical,

00:14:17:02 - 00:14:17:15
Unknown
but

00:14:17:15 - 00:14:22:18
Unknown
It's not that they are all one thing, but it's can these two things coexist?

00:14:22:18 - 00:14:27:20
Unknown
Two things can be true at one time, but not two completely opposing things. So someone isn't

00:14:27:20 - 00:14:31:08
Unknown
repetitious, like cheating on you and they love you,

00:14:31:08 - 00:14:34:01
Unknown
or they respect you and they really want you to stay.

00:14:34:05 - 00:14:36:02
Unknown
They really love you. So much,

00:14:36:02 - 00:14:38:23
Unknown
but they're calling you names and treating you like garbage.

00:14:38:23 - 00:14:42:07
Unknown
I always think that the part that really gets me is you say

00:14:42:07 - 00:14:43:10
Unknown
that hurts me.

00:14:43:10 - 00:14:48:17
Unknown
They see tears coming from your eyeballs. How do they not know that they're hurting you?

00:14:48:17 - 00:14:55:08
Unknown
And almost leads me into like, they have cognitive empathy, right? I mean, I'm talking about narcissists, but they have cognitive empathy at the very least.

00:14:55:08 - 00:14:55:21
Unknown
Do they not?

00:14:55:21 - 00:15:05:15
Unknown
Some. Some. Yeah. Some understand what's going on, even if they don't necessarily have an an emotional attachment to it where they can identify in a, in a,

00:15:05:17 - 00:15:08:12
Unknown
a meaningful or sincere emotional way. But

00:15:08:12 - 00:15:09:17
Unknown
they certainly do.

00:15:09:17 - 00:15:10:13
Unknown
I think,

00:15:10:13 - 00:15:15:22
Unknown
this is an important discussion because well, in even in, in your personal experience, I, I guess I could ask you

00:15:15:22 - 00:15:19:04
Unknown
I mean, they're probably I mean, I imagine there were times when you thought

00:15:19:04 - 00:15:24:13
Unknown
there was a sincerity there and then sort of like after that it was there was a they contradicted

00:15:24:13 - 00:15:26:15
Unknown
other behaviors, contradicted that sincerity.

00:15:26:15 - 00:15:27:09
Unknown
I mean, did you

00:15:27:09 - 00:15:29:19
Unknown
I experienced that constantly.

00:15:29:19 - 00:15:32:02
Unknown
Like, I mean, I know I guess we all do, but

00:15:32:02 - 00:15:34:04
Unknown
the hot and the cold, it was like

00:15:34:04 - 00:15:44:09
Unknown
he wanted me to trust him and then behaved in a way that was untrustworthy. Or he would make excuses all the time, but then say he was trying and it didn't make sense to me because

00:15:44:09 - 00:15:46:19
Unknown
that's not how I see trying.

00:15:46:19 - 00:15:51:23
Unknown
But then it became sort of semantics of like, well, just because you don't think I'm trying, but like

00:15:51:23 - 00:15:53:13
Unknown
trying would look different and

00:15:53:13 - 00:16:00:12
Unknown
trying would look like improvement. And then that's the that's the catch though it did look like improvement sometimes. So it was

00:16:00:12 - 00:16:04:17
Unknown
the hot and the cold. It sucked me in every time. I literally couldn't make sense of it

00:16:04:17 - 00:16:05:14
Unknown
And it was brutal.

00:16:05:14 - 00:16:09:09
Unknown
I don't wish this kind of confusion on my worst enemy. In all honesty,

00:16:09:09 - 00:16:09:22
Unknown
I think

00:16:09:22 - 00:16:13:16
Unknown
the destabilizing kind of feeling of you never really know.

00:16:13:16 - 00:16:18:06
Unknown
And I think what I even see, it's certainly what I felt was like, I know, I do know,

00:16:18:06 - 00:16:18:19
Unknown
do I,

00:16:18:19 - 00:16:19:10
Unknown
I think

00:16:19:10 - 00:16:20:23
Unknown
it shifts from day to day.

00:16:20:23 - 00:16:25:05
Unknown
You're so clear. And then suddenly you're not clear. I had these really,

00:16:25:05 - 00:16:26:10
Unknown
big moments of like,

00:16:26:10 - 00:16:35:06
Unknown
no, this is bad. I have to admit, I never saw it as abuse when I was in it, but I was like, this is bad. I need to go. This person is never going to change.

00:16:35:06 - 00:16:38:11
Unknown
You know, I would look at myself in the mirror, sort of dead face, like leap.

00:16:38:12 - 00:16:45:22
Unknown
You need to leap. Stop that. Stop being stupid. You need to make a different decision. Lisa, let's do this. Let's go. Kind of like rally myself,

00:16:45:22 - 00:16:48:14
Unknown
but then, like, he comes home and he's in a good mood

00:16:48:14 - 00:16:49:21
Unknown
and I almost wonder,

00:16:49:21 - 00:16:53:12
Unknown
is his mood really a good mood, or did he come home and sense

00:16:53:12 - 00:16:58:05
Unknown
that I was, like, fed up or done or just not in a good mood myself and sort of felt like,

00:16:58:05 - 00:16:59:15
Unknown
I need to turn on the charm.

00:16:59:20 - 00:17:02:04
Unknown
I need to get something. I need to,

00:17:02:04 - 00:17:03:21
Unknown
you know, be strategic.

00:17:03:21 - 00:17:15:00
Unknown
I've been horrible lately, so now I need to be good for a few days, or I want something, I want to do something. So I need to be good leading up to that so that I can throw it in her face. That we haven't fought in a week or something.

00:17:15:00 - 00:17:16:08
Unknown
that hot and cold.

00:17:16:08 - 00:17:20:18
Unknown
I didn't see it as intentional. And when you're on the other side of it, it's like,

00:17:20:18 - 00:17:22:00
Unknown
this is intentional.

00:17:22:00 - 00:17:25:05
Unknown
I'd like to ask you, like, so when you're in the mirror saying like,

00:17:25:05 - 00:17:26:06
Unknown
you know what's going on,

00:17:26:06 - 00:17:27:13
Unknown
you have to leave or whatever,

00:17:27:13 - 00:17:28:06
Unknown
and then he

00:17:28:06 - 00:17:29:17
Unknown
comes home in a good mood.

00:17:29:17 - 00:17:35:23
Unknown
what happens next? What happens to that? That sort of pep talk that you gave yourself? Does it just did it disappear altogether?

00:17:35:23 - 00:17:39:21
Unknown
Yeah. Gone. Like in the snap of a finger in in looking at him,

00:17:39:21 - 00:17:46:04
Unknown
it's funny actually there's a question that comes up in my mind sometimes of like, how do you know that you're walking on eggshells?

00:17:46:04 - 00:17:51:13
Unknown
how are you assessing what kind of mood this person is in? Because we're all sort of managing that.

00:17:51:13 - 00:17:54:20
Unknown
And for me, if he came home, I would know

00:17:54:20 - 00:18:02:04
Unknown
instantly. There was just a look on his face. Maybe it was his eyes. There was something. And in the moment that I recognized a good mood,

00:18:02:04 - 00:18:03:09
Unknown
everything was like,

00:18:03:09 - 00:18:03:21
Unknown
oh,

00:18:03:21 - 00:18:06:19
Unknown
and I think now I'm going to call it relief,

00:18:06:19 - 00:18:08:07
Unknown
maybe even dopamine.

00:18:08:07 - 00:18:09:15
Unknown
But it was a moment of like,

00:18:09:15 - 00:18:12:18
Unknown
okay, everything's going to be okay today because

00:18:12:18 - 00:18:20:03
Unknown
he's fine. But if it was a mood or there was sarcasm or anger, it was like, oh my God, how long is this going to last?

00:18:20:03 - 00:18:23:13
Unknown
But it was interesting how quickly I would just like, eat up

00:18:23:13 - 00:18:26:08
Unknown
a good mood and like, oh, everything's good again.

00:18:26:08 - 00:18:28:18
Unknown
I was trauma bonded. I didn't know that at the time, but

00:18:28:18 - 00:18:30:12
Unknown
it's like that's the addiction. That's the like,

00:18:30:12 - 00:18:33:15
Unknown
oh, the sigh of relief that they're actually

00:18:33:15 - 00:18:36:13
Unknown
good. But I don't know, like what led me, you think, to just

00:18:36:13 - 00:18:39:12
Unknown
is, am I just do you think this is clinically accurate? What I'm saying.

00:18:39:14 - 00:18:40:18
Unknown
No, totally. But I think

00:18:40:19 - 00:18:42:12
Unknown
because they live in this,

00:18:42:14 - 00:18:45:13
Unknown
Dichotomous world where something is either all good or all bad,

00:18:45:13 - 00:18:46:08
Unknown
we sort of

00:18:46:08 - 00:18:46:19
Unknown
have to

00:18:46:19 - 00:18:47:21
Unknown
follow along with that.

00:18:47:21 - 00:18:51:16
Unknown
So we lose the gray area too. So like kind of what you're describing as you're in the mirror,

00:18:51:16 - 00:18:55:14
Unknown
it's concrete. You're pretty like definitively, I got to make a change here.

00:18:55:14 - 00:18:56:07
Unknown
And then

00:18:56:07 - 00:19:08:05
Unknown
the extreme, it's like you get the pendulum swings when he comes home and you see the look on his face or whatever, there really is no gray area or stopping points for you. It's like, it's this all or nothing world.

00:19:08:07 - 00:19:10:17
Unknown
Because everything has to be perfect for them or

00:19:10:17 - 00:19:12:08
Unknown
you're the worst person in the world to them.

00:19:12:08 - 00:19:13:06
Unknown
So you sort of

00:19:13:06 - 00:19:14:00
Unknown
it's almost like

00:19:14:00 - 00:19:17:22
Unknown
your nervous system gets accustomed to being the all good or all bad

00:19:17:22 - 00:19:20:05
Unknown
object. And and I think that's why you can't

00:19:20:05 - 00:19:23:06
Unknown
your mind and body skip the steps of well, wait. Yeah,

00:19:23:06 - 00:19:29:06
Unknown
true. He is in a better mood today, but remember the conversation we were just having with ourselves in the mirror?

00:19:29:07 - 00:19:33:05
Unknown
You almost skip the step and just you lose it altogether. Which I think is why it's

00:19:33:05 - 00:19:36:14
Unknown
it's so the intensity of both is just so

00:19:36:14 - 00:19:40:17
Unknown
unfair. And that intensity is coerced as far as I'm concerned. I mean,

00:19:40:17 - 00:19:42:14
Unknown
if they can keep you in that ambiguity,

00:19:42:14 - 00:19:43:16
Unknown
they got you, they got you.

00:19:43:16 - 00:19:46:06
Unknown
And that's like it's on purpose.

00:19:46:06 - 00:19:52:19
Unknown
It's on purpose. They're doing it because it serves them. I really that confusion is so intense

00:19:52:19 - 00:20:02:03
Unknown
that you are living in, in this dual reality. And I don't know, I even feel like, you know, we talk about cognitive dissonance and they're good. They're bad. And how do you hold on to the reality?

00:20:02:03 - 00:20:03:21
Unknown
But like when you're in it,

00:20:03:21 - 00:20:13:19
Unknown
you feel so convicted in one direction that you know it's bad, you know you need to leave, and then suddenly you feel all this relief. You feel like you love them and you hate them.

00:20:13:19 - 00:20:16:20
Unknown
You know you need to leave, but you can't. You feel guilty.

00:20:16:20 - 00:20:19:05
Unknown
Perfect conditions for creating a trauma bond.

00:20:19:05 - 00:20:20:13
Unknown
And I would say that again,

00:20:20:13 - 00:20:30:19
Unknown
I don't think that they know that they're creating a trauma bond. I would highly doubt almost any of them have that language. Maybe now a bit because of social media, but

00:20:30:19 - 00:20:33:12
Unknown
they don't really have that language. But do they know they're creating

00:20:33:12 - 00:20:36:02
Unknown
an attachment and that every time

00:20:36:02 - 00:20:39:05
Unknown
you try to leave, they say just the right thing.

00:20:39:11 - 00:20:44:02
Unknown
It's like, ask yourself how they could possibly know to say the right thing if they didn't

00:20:44:02 - 00:20:45:07
Unknown
know how this works.

00:20:45:07 - 00:20:45:20
Unknown
And just

00:20:45:20 - 00:20:47:14
Unknown
drag you back in by your feet.

00:20:47:14 - 00:20:49:14
Unknown
You know you've got one foot out the door when

00:20:49:14 - 00:20:50:23
Unknown
one piece of your heart

00:20:50:23 - 00:20:52:00
Unknown
out the door.

00:20:52:00 - 00:20:53:05
Unknown
It's hard. I think

00:20:53:05 - 00:20:54:07
Unknown
that the,

00:20:54:07 - 00:20:58:14
Unknown
the guilt that they use and certainly the hope that we have, they really

00:20:58:14 - 00:20:59:16
Unknown
push that so much.

00:20:59:16 - 00:21:03:16
Unknown
That's a huge part of trauma bonding and the confusion you hope

00:21:03:16 - 00:21:06:01
Unknown
that they'll change. Hope is meaningless.

00:21:06:01 - 00:21:07:11
Unknown
in this context, I think,

00:21:07:11 - 00:21:10:04
Unknown
You said something I wanted to touch on real quick.

00:21:10:04 - 00:21:14:16
Unknown
I think we're also trying to resolve our cognitive dissonance

00:21:14:16 - 00:21:17:21
Unknown
in the process of manipulation. So we're landing on

00:21:17:21 - 00:21:19:07
Unknown
that. We want obviously we want

00:21:19:07 - 00:21:21:12
Unknown
to work in the favor of it's it's going to work.

00:21:21:14 - 00:21:21:21
Unknown
So

00:21:21:21 - 00:21:23:22
Unknown
were quick to, you know, get

00:21:23:22 - 00:21:28:12
Unknown
coerced into resolving it temporarily when something good goes on, you know,

00:21:28:12 - 00:21:32:03
Unknown
so it's not just a struggle where we're confused. We're also trying to,

00:21:32:03 - 00:21:32:21
Unknown
resolve that

00:21:32:21 - 00:21:34:08
Unknown
confusion as best we can,

00:21:34:08 - 00:21:38:04
Unknown
simultaneously thinking there's no way they're doing this on purpose all the time.

00:21:38:04 - 00:21:38:18
Unknown
You know,

00:21:38:18 - 00:21:40:18
Unknown
I think that that's what confuses people, too.

00:21:40:22 - 00:21:42:07
Unknown
And I've heard a lot of people say,

00:21:42:07 - 00:21:42:21
Unknown
well,

00:21:42:21 - 00:21:51:23
Unknown
there's times when I've been manipulated or manipulative and it wasn't intentional. I was really coming from a place of defense. It's like, okay, well, we're not saying that every human being

00:21:51:23 - 00:21:58:11
Unknown
who manipulates all the time is intentional. That's not what we're saying. We're saying there's a percentage of the population

00:21:58:11 - 00:22:00:06
Unknown
and the people who are trauma bonded with them.

00:22:00:09 - 00:22:06:09
Unknown
It's likely that those people are intentionally manipulating. So we got to remember, too, we're not talking about

00:22:06:09 - 00:22:09:17
Unknown
human beings in the human condition. We're talking about a certain type of

00:22:09:17 - 00:22:10:14
Unknown
person.

00:22:10:14 - 00:22:15:16
Unknown
Who may or may not be disordered and who is going into these these interactions with the intention of

00:22:15:16 - 00:22:18:15
Unknown
their the like puppet master. And they're pulling your strings.

00:22:18:17 - 00:22:19:12
Unknown
And that's the way

00:22:19:12 - 00:22:21:21
Unknown
the dynamic works. That's what works for them.

00:22:21:21 - 00:22:23:12
Unknown
And that's really what they are

00:22:23:12 - 00:22:24:11
Unknown
benefiting from.

00:22:24:11 - 00:22:26:23
Unknown
You know, like it's not a level playing field.

00:22:26:23 - 00:22:27:18
Unknown
It isn't.

00:22:27:18 - 00:22:29:11
Unknown
But I think, you know, when

00:22:29:11 - 00:22:35:00
Unknown
I know for me, my worldview is not that like people are manipulative and you need to watch out for people.

00:22:35:00 - 00:22:38:11
Unknown
I'm not paranoid. I don't think the worst of people and yet

00:22:38:11 - 00:22:41:18
Unknown
disordered people and in my view, also just abusive people.

00:22:41:18 - 00:22:44:08
Unknown
they do see the world that way. It's like it's a game.

00:22:44:08 - 00:22:48:18
Unknown
You said it's a game. When I say that, I see a lot of people's eyes like,

00:22:48:18 - 00:22:52:05
Unknown
you know, shock because it's it's not a game, it's your life.

00:22:52:06 - 00:22:53:01
Unknown
And yet

00:22:53:01 - 00:22:57:09
Unknown
it's a game and it is about winning and losing. Although I find

00:22:57:09 - 00:23:12:10
Unknown
this whole winning and losing thing, a narcissist obviously wants to win and they want you to lose. But in my view, they want you to lose more than they want to win. So they will happily burn everything to the ground. They'll take everybody down, including themselves, as long as you lose.

00:23:12:10 - 00:23:20:13
Unknown
Maybe not every single one, but often. Certainly my my situation. But I see that a lot like they'll they'll burn everything to the ground. And that's confusing.

00:23:20:13 - 00:23:22:13
Unknown
you're destroying us. You're destroying

00:23:22:13 - 00:23:25:09
Unknown
our relationship. You're destroying me. But you love me.

00:23:25:09 - 00:23:32:16
Unknown
Like, there was one really significant conversation where I remember screaming at him. Like, I feel like I have Stockholm syndrome or something.

00:23:32:16 - 00:23:33:21
Unknown
This is crazy.

00:23:33:21 - 00:23:38:00
Unknown
I never heard of the word trauma bond. And he laughed in my face

00:23:38:00 - 00:23:41:10
Unknown
because it was like, oh, what? I'm holding you captive. Listen,

00:23:41:10 - 00:23:42:11
Unknown
it felt like it.

00:23:42:11 - 00:23:45:01
Unknown
I know we have free will, but it didn't feel like that.

00:23:45:01 - 00:23:47:21
Unknown
I have never been more confused in my life,

00:23:47:21 - 00:23:49:14
Unknown
but on the other side of it,

00:23:49:14 - 00:23:50:21
Unknown
this is so clear to me.

00:23:50:23 - 00:24:01:16
Unknown
I could never unsee how obviously intentional this is, but I hope I never forget what it was like to be that confused, because I think it helps me help people to remember that

00:24:01:16 - 00:24:02:19
Unknown
distinct feeling.

00:24:02:19 - 00:24:04:01
Unknown
Yeah, absolutely.

00:24:04:01 - 00:24:08:04
Unknown
Tell me what your thoughts are on this whole concept that they're just emotionally immature.

00:24:08:04 - 00:24:14:13
Unknown
Right? So sometimes they have good moments, sometimes they have bad moments. It's just a lack of emotional maturity. They just need to learn.

00:24:14:13 - 00:24:15:07
Unknown
What do you think?

00:24:15:07 - 00:24:16:23
Unknown
I don't think that we can,

00:24:17:01 - 00:24:18:12
Unknown
reduce this type of,

00:24:18:14 - 00:24:21:02
Unknown
abuse to somebody who's just emotionally immature,

00:24:21:02 - 00:24:24:14
Unknown
you know, because being emotionally immature doesn't mean that you're abusive.

00:24:24:15 - 00:24:26:02
Unknown
There's a lot of people who need

00:24:26:02 - 00:24:28:10
Unknown
some emotional stability,

00:24:28:10 - 00:24:31:06
Unknown
or they need to develop some emotional muscle, let's say.

00:24:31:06 - 00:24:32:23
Unknown
And they're very kind people.

00:24:33:00 - 00:24:33:14
Unknown
So

00:24:33:14 - 00:24:36:09
Unknown
I don't think that that's a conversation where we can just

00:24:36:09 - 00:24:41:09
Unknown
reduce if they just got some emotional maturity, they would all of a sudden stop being abusive because

00:24:41:09 - 00:24:42:12
Unknown
we're talking about

00:24:42:12 - 00:24:42:23
Unknown
like

00:24:42:23 - 00:24:47:00
Unknown
tendencies and, and propensities and even desire,

00:24:47:00 - 00:24:47:14
Unknown
you know,

00:24:47:14 - 00:24:49:15
Unknown
Does it seem like they're being bratty

00:24:49:15 - 00:24:55:14
Unknown
children who don't have any emotional maturity at times? Absolutely. But I think it's much more

00:24:55:14 - 00:24:56:12
Unknown
complex than that.

00:24:56:12 - 00:24:58:04
Unknown
It's kind of like the way I see it is like,

00:24:58:04 - 00:25:01:03
Unknown
you could be a very intelligent, emotionally mature person,

00:25:01:03 - 00:25:02:13
Unknown
and then you have a drug problem.

00:25:02:13 - 00:25:08:21
Unknown
And when you're under the influence of a drug, your personality is certainly affected by it. And you can behave in some pretty ridiculous,

00:25:08:21 - 00:25:11:05
Unknown
contradictory, immature ways

00:25:11:05 - 00:25:11:21
Unknown
because

00:25:11:21 - 00:25:14:03
Unknown
your cognitive functioning is compromised under that,

00:25:14:04 - 00:25:15:01
Unknown
substance.

00:25:15:03 - 00:25:17:08
Unknown
And trying to reason with someone in that state

00:25:17:08 - 00:25:19:09
Unknown
isn't going to work. You have to kind of wait until they,

00:25:19:10 - 00:25:22:16
Unknown
clean up and sober up before the the maturity comes back.

00:25:22:16 - 00:25:26:00
Unknown
I kind of see these personalities as being that way,

00:25:26:00 - 00:25:29:23
Unknown
but they're not under the influence of anything. I mean, they're under the influence of their own

00:25:29:23 - 00:25:31:05
Unknown
operating system.

00:25:31:05 - 00:25:35:02
Unknown
But there's a lot more to that operating system than just emotion. I mean,

00:25:35:02 - 00:25:35:21
Unknown
they're

00:25:35:21 - 00:25:37:03
Unknown
unwilling to,

00:25:37:05 - 00:25:37:16
Unknown
work on

00:25:37:16 - 00:25:44:17
Unknown
not just their emotion, their behavior, their perception, their belief system. I mean, it's there's just so many more things involved

00:25:44:17 - 00:25:46:17
Unknown
than just feelings and emotions

00:25:46:17 - 00:25:51:04
Unknown
in these types of people. So I don't think it's enough to say they're just emotionally immature.

00:25:51:06 - 00:25:54:14
Unknown
Some of them actually can be very mature in certain contexts.

00:25:54:14 - 00:25:59:00
Unknown
You know, if it benefits them, whether it's if it's benefiting them in work or

00:25:59:00 - 00:26:01:01
Unknown
in the public, they all of a sudden develop

00:26:01:01 - 00:26:01:12
Unknown
this

00:26:01:12 - 00:26:03:03
Unknown
robust emotional

00:26:03:03 - 00:26:09:06
Unknown
maturity. So I don't think that's enough of the I that's part of it, but it's not enough of the conversation.

00:26:09:12 - 00:26:10:13
Unknown
I feel like I mean,

00:26:10:13 - 00:26:24:03
Unknown
social media sixty-second videos. I feel like also it kind of contributes to just taking these little snippets because I hear people who are narcissistic get compared a lot to children, you know, or they have the emotional intelligence of a five year old or whatever.

00:26:24:03 - 00:26:30:20
Unknown
that's too simple. And as somebody who likes to oversimplify things, that's too far in my opinion, because it's not just that I think that they're

00:26:30:20 - 00:26:32:14
Unknown
ability to be,

00:26:32:16 - 00:26:33:22
Unknown
you know, like emotionally

00:26:33:22 - 00:26:37:10
Unknown
immature or appear that way when it benefits them,

00:26:37:10 - 00:26:41:03
Unknown
tells you that that's not what it actually is because it's manipulation.

00:26:41:08 - 00:26:43:19
Unknown
Somebody who knows how to turn it on and off.

00:26:43:20 - 00:26:49:07
Unknown
if trauma was really the thing, if emotional immaturity was the thing, or they really didn't know any better,

00:26:49:07 - 00:26:52:19
Unknown
I actually think it would be a lot more consistent. I think the fact that

00:26:52:19 - 00:27:04:01
Unknown
they're not screaming at you at the gas station or the grocery store, that it always seems to be that you're alone when the worst of the abuse happens, and that they care about what other people think.

00:27:04:06 - 00:27:06:03
Unknown
They're always doing that image management piece

00:27:06:03 - 00:27:06:22
Unknown
they know

00:27:06:22 - 00:27:08:01
Unknown
they don't care

00:27:08:01 - 00:27:09:09
Unknown
when it bothers you

00:27:09:09 - 00:27:14:07
Unknown
and why they suck you back. Why they're good sometimes is because the cycle requires it

00:27:14:07 - 00:27:18:02
Unknown
in order to stay in an abusive relationship, there has to be something to hold on to.

00:27:18:02 - 00:27:19:05
Unknown
That's the good times.

00:27:19:05 - 00:27:19:15
Unknown
Yeah,

00:27:19:15 - 00:27:20:11
Unknown
absolutely.

00:27:20:11 - 00:27:21:02
Unknown
Yeah. Just

00:27:21:02 - 00:27:23:12
Unknown
to your point of when they can turn it on and off.

00:27:23:12 - 00:27:24:21
Unknown
I mean one that actually

00:27:24:21 - 00:27:28:12
Unknown
that's evidence that there is an element of self-control there.

00:27:28:12 - 00:27:32:05
Unknown
Right. And so it's not just an across the board emotional maturity.

00:27:32:05 - 00:27:32:11
Unknown
I think

00:27:32:11 - 00:27:33:18
Unknown
they can orchestrate it,

00:27:33:18 - 00:27:37:19
Unknown
in pretty crafty ways and be in control of it enough when it suits them.

00:27:37:19 - 00:27:41:20
Unknown
I think a lot of people associate emotional maturity with people who are dramatic.

00:27:41:21 - 00:27:42:08
Unknown
I mean,

00:27:42:08 - 00:27:49:03
Unknown
disordered people are certainly dramatic, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're stunted in a five-year-old’s state.

00:27:49:05 - 00:27:56:00
Unknown
They can act like spoiled brats. So we often think, oh, maybe they just need some growing up. But it's not really that they're not grown up. It's that

00:27:56:00 - 00:28:01:06
Unknown
when it serves them to be a spoiled brat and to act that way and throw a tantrum, they're going to do it

00:28:01:06 - 00:28:03:22
Unknown
without any self-respect or respect for you.

00:28:04:00 - 00:28:05:18
Unknown
And then when it serves them to be,

00:28:05:18 - 00:28:07:22
Unknown
you know, this really sophisticated,

00:28:07:22 - 00:28:13:00
Unknown
you know, intellectual to get that sort of impression across, they're going to get in touch with that, too. So

00:28:13:00 - 00:28:14:08
Unknown
again, speaking to

00:28:14:08 - 00:28:15:10
Unknown
your point that

00:28:15:10 - 00:28:17:10
Unknown
this seems pretty intentional,

00:28:17:10 - 00:28:20:16
Unknown
it really does that switch that they can flip on and off

00:28:20:16 - 00:28:25:23
Unknown
once you see it. And I really hope that even people listening to this, like when you see it, don't let that go.

00:28:26:04 - 00:28:27:07
Unknown
Hold on to that,

00:28:27:07 - 00:28:28:23
Unknown
that visual that this is

00:28:28:23 - 00:28:36:14
Unknown
sometimes they know and sometimes they don't like. That's not how you can't understand something and then not understand the very same thing the next day.

00:28:36:14 - 00:28:45:18
Unknown
They know what they're doing. You've communiquer rated it. And I think also at the end of the day, none of this even matters, because even if they were traumatized and that was the cause of it, are they willing to change?

00:28:45:18 - 00:28:49:23
Unknown
Are they willing to be different? Are they collaborative in any capacity.

00:28:49:23 - 00:28:51:04
Unknown
And it's usually no

00:28:51:04 - 00:28:53:15
Unknown
right. And again, it benefits them.

00:28:53:15 - 00:28:59:10
Unknown
That's the piece because we don't think like that. I don't know about you, but I don't think like, oh, what can I get from people?

00:28:59:10 - 00:29:00:03
Unknown
I just

00:29:00:03 - 00:29:02:22
Unknown
live my life trying to be a good person.

00:29:02:22 - 00:29:07:06
Unknown
These people are trying to take from you so they have a benefit.

00:29:07:06 - 00:29:14:07
Unknown
Just being controlling, you know, like, I don't know, a question I get asked a lot is why aren't they just nice? Like when it just be easier

00:29:14:07 - 00:29:15:03
Unknown
to be nice?

00:29:15:03 - 00:29:19:18
Unknown
And I mean, like, no, not if you're a narcissist. Not it's not if you're disordered, but even

00:29:19:18 - 00:29:21:14
Unknown
your average abuser., no,

00:29:21:14 - 00:29:23:21
Unknown
it's not easier to not get what they want.

00:29:23:23 - 00:29:33:16
Unknown
I think it's hard for people to wrap their minds around what we've collectively determined to be the way things work. They have a different lens. It's a distorted lens. They don't see that as

00:29:33:16 - 00:29:41:04
Unknown
convenient or beneficial to them, because what that requires is that they're equal with everyone else. And part of the pathology is they don't believe anyone is their equal.

00:29:41:04 - 00:29:45:20
Unknown
and going back to the trauma thing again, it could be a risk factor to exacerbate things. But

00:29:45:20 - 00:29:53:15
Unknown
I've sat with thousands of trauma survivors who are just the kindest, sweetest people. They make no excuses for themselves.

00:29:53:15 - 00:29:54:19
Unknown
They're responsible,

00:29:54:19 - 00:29:58:22
Unknown
and the trauma is something they want to change. They don't want to feel that way.

00:29:58:22 - 00:30:00:21
Unknown
So they work really hard to feel better.

00:30:00:23 - 00:30:01:20
Unknown
And there's not

00:30:01:20 - 00:30:05:08
Unknown
that same motivation in, in these the people that

00:30:05:08 - 00:30:06:20
Unknown
were describing right now,

00:30:06:22 - 00:30:09:00
Unknown
you said something earlier that's really important.

00:30:09:00 - 00:30:11:23
Unknown
They will burn their own lives down to be right

00:30:11:23 - 00:30:13:04
Unknown
before they give in,

00:30:13:04 - 00:30:16:07
Unknown
which just shows that this has much more to do with,

00:30:16:08 - 00:30:16:21
Unknown
I mean, I'm going to

00:30:16:21 - 00:30:19:13
Unknown
they'll throw themselves under the bus, light a fire,

00:30:19:13 - 00:30:20:01
Unknown
you know,

00:30:20:01 - 00:30:23:22
Unknown
if it means being right and being right's more important than the truth.

00:30:23:22 - 00:30:26:02
Unknown
Being right's more important than resolution.

00:30:26:02 - 00:30:27:13
Unknown
That's a problem.

00:30:27:13 - 00:30:28:07
Unknown
And

00:30:28:07 - 00:30:30:03
Unknown
there's an intentionality to that.

00:30:30:03 - 00:30:30:14
Unknown
You know,

00:30:30:14 - 00:30:34:18
Unknown
They're not willing to give up. It's not even necessarily that they don't know when to give up. It's like,

00:30:34:18 - 00:30:35:22
Unknown
I will not.

00:30:35:22 - 00:30:39:20
Unknown
That's the key though, right? Like, it's not that they don't know, it's that they don't care.

00:30:39:21 - 00:30:43:17
Unknown
Being right is the only thing that matters. They're like blinded by that need.

00:30:43:17 - 00:30:50:11
Unknown
And we want to figure it out. And what could make them stop being manipulative? I mean, a choice.

00:30:50:11 - 00:30:54:03
Unknown
Can you imagine? It's it's it's just choosing to not be

00:30:54:03 - 00:30:55:15
Unknown
horrible and manipulative.

00:30:55:15 - 00:30:59:11
Unknown
That expression, when your words don't match your actions, it's manipulation.

00:30:59:11 - 00:31:07:23
Unknown
they know that they're saying something opposite to their actions. I love you, and I'm cheating on you, or I love you, and I continue to cheat or call you name like it doesn't make sense.

00:31:07:23 - 00:31:09:21
Unknown
And I always say, if you were to flip it

00:31:09:21 - 00:31:11:20
Unknown
and you treat them how they treat you,

00:31:11:20 - 00:31:12:14
Unknown
that's how you know.

00:31:12:14 - 00:31:14:19
Unknown
They know because they would flip out.

00:31:14:19 - 00:31:24:03
Unknown
They don't deserve to be treated that way. You deserve to be treated that way. So it's manipulation and all of that leads to confusion. So it's really like holding on to reality.

00:31:24:03 - 00:31:35:09
Unknown
Now, this is actually something that you and I talk a lot about in our group coaching program, the Trauma Recovery Group coaching that we host. And will definitely all of this healing from this kind of

00:31:35:09 - 00:31:38:23
Unknown
horrible, abusive, pathological relationship and trauma bonds

00:31:38:23 - 00:31:40:15
Unknown
near San Diego, in,

00:31:40:15 - 00:31:43:16
Unknown
in Dana Point, California in October.

00:31:43:16 - 00:31:46:17
Unknown
I'm so excited for unbreakable and irreplaceable.

00:31:46:17 - 00:31:47:05
Unknown
Yeah,

00:31:47:05 - 00:31:49:03
Unknown
I'm going to have a live workshops. Going to be great.

00:31:49:03 - 00:31:49:15
Unknown
Yeah.

00:31:49:15 - 00:31:53:11
Unknown
Tell me what you think the biggest takeaway for people will be

00:31:53:11 - 00:31:54:11
Unknown
after that event,

00:31:54:11 - 00:31:54:20
Unknown
but

00:31:54:20 - 00:31:56:18
Unknown
the biggest takeaway, I think, is,

00:31:56:22 - 00:31:57:09
Unknown
Well,

00:31:57:09 - 00:31:58:22
Unknown
empowerment, I think

00:31:58:22 - 00:32:00:19
Unknown
this is like disempowerment trauma.

00:32:00:19 - 00:32:01:07
Unknown
Right?

00:32:01:07 - 00:32:03:02
Unknown
everything that you know, to be you is,

00:32:03:02 - 00:32:04:01
Unknown
being questioned.

00:32:04:01 - 00:32:06:18
Unknown
It's being compromised. I think the fact that you're going to have

00:32:06:18 - 00:32:12:18
Unknown
so many people in the same room with the same story, because they've all been around somebody who's gone to the same

00:32:12:18 - 00:32:14:10
Unknown
university as you said earlier,

00:32:14:10 - 00:32:14:21
Unknown
that

00:32:14:21 - 00:32:16:23
Unknown
connection and that support is going to be.

00:32:16:23 - 00:32:19:00
Unknown
So it's just immensely powerful.

00:32:19:00 - 00:32:20:05
Unknown
And there's going to just be this

00:32:20:05 - 00:32:23:03
Unknown
restorative, you know, power element to that.

00:32:23:03 - 00:32:24:17
Unknown
People are going to walk away feeling

00:32:24:17 - 00:32:27:11
Unknown
really, really changed and supported in a way where

00:32:27:11 - 00:32:33:03
Unknown
they're going to reality test in a way that they haven't before because the reality has been questioned so much.

00:32:33:03 - 00:32:35:07
Unknown
Now they're going to have an opportunity to really,

00:32:35:07 - 00:32:35:18
Unknown
like,

00:32:35:18 - 00:32:38:14
Unknown
come to terms with this intentional abuse

00:32:38:14 - 00:32:39:09
Unknown
and see it

00:32:39:09 - 00:32:41:20
Unknown
for what it is in a very clear way, and it's going to be very

00:32:41:20 - 00:32:42:23
Unknown
liberating for them.

00:32:42:23 - 00:32:46:10
Unknown
Yeah, I see people all the time get that clarity

00:32:46:10 - 00:32:51:17
Unknown
and I swear you can't turn back. There's a point where you it just it lands, you have your

00:32:51:17 - 00:32:52:07
Unknown
moment

00:32:52:07 - 00:32:56:04
Unknown
and you can't turn back. So I know that that's something that people will get from this.

00:32:56:04 - 00:33:00:19
Unknown
Just real quick. What I hear most people say when they get to that clarity is now I want to go and help.

00:33:00:19 - 00:33:05:02
Unknown
I want to scream it from the rooftops. I want to get into the helping profession in some way. I want to,

00:33:05:02 - 00:33:07:11
Unknown
you know, coach people because it's almost like

00:33:07:11 - 00:33:09:03
Unknown
That is an invaluable.

00:33:09:03 - 00:33:09:17
Unknown
Gift

00:33:09:17 - 00:33:16:12
Unknown
to gain back in your life. And you just can't help but like share it. And it's like such a beautiful thing to see everybody come together and then want to pay it forward.

00:33:16:12 - 00:33:17:02
Unknown
I love that,

00:33:17:02 - 00:33:18:07
Unknown
yeah, I guess I'm

00:33:18:07 - 00:33:21:16
Unknown
living proof of that in some ways myself, but me too. Yeah.

00:33:21:16 - 00:33:25:22
Unknown
Thank you so much for being here on Real Talk with Lisa Sunny.

00:33:25:22 - 00:33:41:03
Unknown
I really appreciate your your insight and this conversation. So for those that want to learn more about you, you can follow at Doctor Peter Solano on Instagram and on YouTube and check out his books, and I'll make sure that they're all linked in the notes as well.

00:33:41:07 - 00:33:47:07
Unknown
So please check that out, give him a follow, and if you can, please do come to our online,

00:33:47:07 - 00:33:51:21
Unknown
group coaching program or come meet us in Dana Point in October. We're really excited.

00:33:51:21 - 00:33:54:06
Unknown
Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Lisa.

00:33:54:06 - 00:34:13:12
Unknown
If this episode gave you clarity. Share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember, you're stronger than before. Stronger than before.