His Voice Sounded Familiar — Because It Was | Ep. 008

The voice of your abuser doesn't just sound familiar—it echoes the voices that shaped you long before you ever met them.

This week, I sit down with Trauma Therapist, Logan Cooper, to explore the 7 most common childhood environments that unknowingly program us to accept abuse later in life. Together, we break down how emotionally invalidating homes, conditional love, narcissistic parenting, authoritarian control, chaotic households, family secrets, and enmeshment create the perfect storm for trauma bond vulnerability. Logan shares her expertise on how these early experiences teach us to distrust our own reality, chase unavailable love, and mistake chaos for connection. This episode will help you recognize the specific patterns from your past that may be influencing your present relationships and give you the clarity needed to finally break free from toxic cycles.

Resources Mentioned:

Emotionally Bulletproof Kids: How To Raise Strong & Confident Kids Amongst Chaos

Guest: 

Logan Cooper, Trauma Therapist (@crookedcounselorcooper) 

https://www.tiktok.com/@crookedcounselorcooper?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc 

logancoopercounseling@gmail.com  

Transcript

0:00

Do we ever respond with compassion? like, I don't understand how women stay. Yes, you're right, you don't understand. Why are you talking? like I don't understand rocket science. You know what? I don't talk about rocket science. I Welcome to another episode of Real Talk with Lisa Sunny relationships uncensored. And today I am so excited because we have a guest who I have been wanting to have on here and have this kind of discussion for so long. So you might know her online as Crooked Councilor Cooper. But her name is Logan Cooper, and she's a trauma therapist. And what we're going to talk about today is that voice that our abusers kind of get in our minds, and we stay, and we think it's normal. Where does that voice really come from? So first I just want to sort of throw the floor over to you. Logan, can you tell us a little bit about you and about your practice? Hi. I'm Logan Cooper. I am a married mother of two, and I have a private practice that focuses predominantly on helping women recover from trauma, whether that be sexual trauma or domestic violence. And I am very much in, like, I have younger children. My children are five and seven. So I'm very much in, like, this fragile topic that we are going to be talking about today, which is really like establishing the voice within and like teaching people what love or lack of love looks like, like that is like in a nutshell, like the seeds are planted at a very young age for the kind of love that we learn to accept. That is so true. Actually, you know what's interesting over the years of like, unpacking all the stuff that happened to me and why it happened, and looking into my childhood and doing EFT and IFS and all these things, I'm like, ooh, so you can really screw kids up. Oh my God. Because when I had my own domestic violence situation, my kids were one and three and I started to be like, so if I say that, that destroys them. Interesting, And it was like a slow drip over the last five years. But I think it's going to sound weird. It's not like a silver lining, but it has made me a better mother. Not abuse, but overcoming the abuse and the really since it like, oh, this is really important. Yeah. No, I feel like seriously like I it's so like that the like I can feel the weight of it just right now when we're talking about it, which is obviously a good side. I'm so glad we're both taking it so seriously, but like, it's insane to me that people think that children are just little, brainless, blank slate beings that aren't absorbing everything around them, whether you're actually saying it or whether you're just acting it out. Children are brilliant and they're sponges. people say like, you know, tell your kids A, B, and C, you can tell them whatever you want. You are showing them something. So even when I look at, you know, the idea of people who stay for their family and I'm not friends with any intention to shame or judge people, right? I did it too. But you don't stay for your kids. You leave for your kids. Because by watching now, we talked about that in a webinar that we did Emotionally Bulletproof Kids, which if people haven't seen, you have got to because the advice that you and the other panelists were dropping was like, Just, oh my God, you know, to this day. And it was two years ago that we filmed that. But people to this day are like, oh my God, this is so helpful. so that helps women who are experiencing abuse and they want to be able to help their kids. So it's how you help parents help their kids, which is also part of what we're talking about today. But fundamentally, we learn to stay and we learn to kind of put up with this. And I know for me, I learned that I felt like I had to be the good girl, and it was a connection that I kind of only made recently that that idea of being a good girl. It was interesting how my abuser didn't really sort of control me. What he did was use praise to control me, and it was like, oh, I'm so glad that you aren't the kind of woman that goes out all night or that you don't dress a certain way or certain. Right? But I was like, oh yes, praise me. Praise. Yeah, yeah. Like I wanted that. And I was like, why? It was familiar, right. Well, honey, you needed that. Like, let's just make that so queer that like, I think one of the most important pieces that we're going to acknowledge today is like one of the family environments that sets you up for abusive relationships down the road is that you don't get provided a sense of belonging. The emphasis is placed on sitting in. So like, whatever the role is that you're born into, like that is the role that you will maintain because it's all that, you know. So like you're talking about that and it's not even I feel like just saying it, that you wanted it almost cheapened it. You needed that. Like that was clearly like, it sounds like the role that you were expected to be in. So like to you like that was like, this is how I fit in. Which of course, like until you learn better, you mistake for belonging. Whatever I got to do to be loved, whatever I got to do to get the parts to perform. Yeah, yeah. Because you're doing right. I never thought of that. Yeah, but it was so much performance based love. And I like even that expression. I remember hearing it. Oh, that it hit me. People who are in these domestic violence type of relationships, even without physical abuse, emotional abuse, narcissistic abuse, whatever you want to call it, I, I know there's this reputation like, oh, they must have come from an abusive family, right? Not always so direct. Right? I see emotional invalidation or neglect or emotional immaturity. Emotional unavailability. What do you see my viewpoint on that is it's not about a lack of love. It's about a lack of healing. I don't think that every set of parents is monsters. I think there are a lot of monsters out there. Like, don't get me wrong, there are people that come from like unforgivable, unexplainable, absolutely no situations. It's a miracle they survive at all. But I don't think that's always the case. I think there are parents who love their children but don't understand that if you don't heal, you are going to hurt your children regardless. I believe that some parents love their children. I believe that, but like you did damage because there wasn't healing work done. Yeah, and that's hard to admit, you know, you see this trend right now of like, people going no contact with their parents and a lot of parents being really like, that's unfair. After everything I did for you, the it's interesting dynamic and it's I think when you see the parents that are so like it was my child's job to love me and be grateful. I have no questions why your children are no contact with you because you can see that they haven't healed. I had a really pivotal moment when my son was maybe three and a half, might have been four, and I screamed at him. I was so angry and it wasn't really about him. And I in the moment. Like within 10s, I was like, oh my God. And I walked out of the room and I went to the bathroom. I bawled my eyes out, and then I came out and I repaired and I didn't know the steps I wasn't paying attention to, like, okay, now it's time to repair. But I came out and I said, I am so sorry. That was not about you. Mommy had big feelings and my reaction made no sense. You know, it was a small problem. What do you think I could have done differently? And he was like, calm down, you know, and just we had a little conversation, but I was like, oh, and that carries the guilt for like a year. That's so powerful. Thank you. Like you're welcome, honey. It's you. It was a hard moment, but I knew when when I reflected, like, what was I mad at? I don't remember what happened. Like that moment. I don't remember the trigger, but honestly, what? I was mad at was my life. I was mad that I was out of an abusive relationship, that I had very little resources, that I had no help, that I was doing this by myself, that I was being fought and battled. And it was just like, how much can a person take for really? It was also the the lack of, compassion that I showed him. It feels like familiar to me that sort of I don't know that I had a lot of space for my big feelings. I grew up in, go to your room kind of house. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, and I think I, I promise you, I believe that my parents intention was like, you need space to calm down, but we know now it's like, go away. Your feelings are inconvenient. Absolutely. That's how children feel. Yeah. Yes. So I'm going to share with you my version of that moment. And it wasn't the first moment but it's absolutely one of the biggest. It's like embedded in my memory now my daughter is seven and it was at the end of a long day, like I'm pretty sure it was during a work week. So you know how that is, like when you've gotten out of work and then you're getting the kids from school and then it's like, okay, the third shift, you know, like you're so exhausted that you just kind of want them to do the thing. So I told the kids in the morning, hey, when we get home before we do our fun stuff, we have to pick up our rooms. Like, I told them that in the morning. I know that they had forgotten, obviously. But then I picked them up again and I remind them again. So we get home and neither one of my kids are, like, willing to help me pick up like, and I don't know about you, but I definitely get triggered by feeling like Cinderella where I'm like, I feel like the help. Like I feel so disrespected. I feel like I'm just picking up everybody else's shit. So I, you know, eventually snapped where I had asked nicely enough times, and then it became about me feeling unappreciated, unseen, unheard, disrespected. Like that got triggered in me when I got to my boiling point. So I lost my shit. Like, I like, yelled at them and I can really yell like I've up my fathers yell. So it's very scary. So I yelled at them and then I was like, I was like, now go clean up. You know? So like, I like I'm like seething around my kitchen. And I hear my daughter whimpering. I hear my seven year old daughter like, you know, like crying. And I look over and she is I could cry thinking about it. She is cleaning like she is in like turbo mode cleaning, sobbing. And I was like, I have to lutely not like it was like, I like glitch. I was like, what am I doing? So I literally like, walked in the room with my daughter. I sat on the floor next door and I was like, come here, honey. I was like, can you come here? And I said, I was like, I am so sorry. Like I was like, I am so sorry that I just scared you like that. Like I was like, you are standing here doing exactly what you're supposed to be doing with tears running down your face, because I just scared you and made you feel so awful, like I. It was like looking at child me in the mirror where they didn't care if I was crying, if I was doing the thing I was supposed to do. It didn't matter if I was bawling my eyes out, oh my God. And then you're standing there like, oh! And I was like, I cannot believe that that just came out of me. Like, it's what I call like a sliding door moment. I was like, I cannot believe that all of this just came out of me. And the only thing that matters to me right now is immediately getting to my child and taking full responsibility. And she tried to apologize back to me and I said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I was like, I appreciate that you are trying to be in it with me. You can just let mommy apologize. Yeah, I can, this doesn't have to be one. Sorry. And I doesn't have to be a two way street. I've had that before to like, I'm sorry I upset you. And it's like, no, because sometimes too, if if I've had a reaction that is too big that, like, we can't even focus on what the child did anymore, you know, because my, my reaction outweighed it. So I think so much about that and I think so much about the repairs that I didn't get. And it was just like you said, actually, like, if you're crying, fine. But as long as your room is clean, it doesn't matter. And so you see this a lot even in the authoritarian style of parenting or people sort of saying gentle parenting doesn't work. think that when people say that, they actually mean permissive parenting doesn't work, and people conflate those two things that are totally different, right? It matters so much to be human and to apologize. But there are people who think that you don't have to do that because it's just a kid, right? what happens in your opinion, when children never hear their parents take responsibility, take accountability, apologize. What happens when they grow up? I think that they learn to prioritize control over connection, whether that's in being controlled by someone else or in controlling another person. I think they learn that that's what relationships are, that that's the dynamic, because they haven't learned what respect actually means. They learn obedience, which a lot of people expect that. And that's interesting because again, like, I feel like I had pretty good parents, but I grew up with an authoritarian father for sure. And I grew up with, like, the perfect British mother. So there was a lot of pressure to be good, to be ladylike, to behave a certain way, to look a certain way. I was allowed to have temper tantrums. I think about this often now. No problem. You have big feelings. Fine. But we're going to leave where we are and you're going to go have your fit in the car or in a room But go over here and then it's like, are you done? Okay, now you're done. Now we can go back in. And it was sort of like isolate you and you can have feelings, but don't inconvenience people with your feelings. So put them over here and then you're allowed to be back with people when you're behaving perfectly. Oh my god. In hindsight, I'm like, well that explains a lot. So much, dude. It's like, do you need to hear more? That's how I grew up. And with a father who yelled, if you didn't do something, he'd ask you once and then that's it. Like you're being yelled at, so. And fear. Oh my God. Yeah. The fear. Oh my. I, my sister could tell way better stories about the fear. But what's interesting is, like, he's so different now, right? I think it's old age or when I don't care, but. Yeah, right. It's totally different now. But when you look at how I was raised and then I think, okay, so what led me into this abusive relationship, what felt normal? Because I see that a lot even with my clients. And like, what is it that felt normal? What's the pattern? What's the connection? Where's the mirror from your childhood to your adult relationship? What has led you here? I think, touching on the point that you just made with your dad and the yelling, it's like fear should not be a normal part of a relationship. That's actually not normal at all. Yeah, it was to me. It was to me. Yeah, it was terrifying. And I know now and that's I mean like, yay for us, right? We know better now. But if you don't know, it's like, I really I spent so much time looking back, and then it's kind of hard not to almost place blame to a degree. Right? Like you parented me like this. So that's how I got there. But we're in the responsibility, accountability space of like, just get yourself out and change this and think about the impact, because, I mean, there's a lot of, women who are not mothers that are not parenting others right now that don't have to deal with this, but that are still trying to unpack what the hell was so familiar. And do you find that moms get more blame for this, that people often look at? Like, my mother did this to me, and don't look at what their fathers impact has been. I think that hold on, because we're touching on another very interesting point here, which is that I think that in a, in a less healthy home, it becomes more about blame and a more healthy home. It becomes accountability and taking responsibility because, like, I actually had to learn as a part of my marriage that there doesn't have to be someone to blame. And like that blew my mind. From childhood, I didn't learn that there was always blame. Yeah, there's always someone to blame. Usually me, by the way, with the kids. But like. That's interesting. I've. I've paused, even in just thinking like that's so true is that it's like, whose fault was this? And it's like, okay, so, so just so you're clear, there doesn't have to be fault. We can just figure out a solution and move forward. Right. And like, I was like, like, I'm not kidding you. When I realized that I was a trauma therapist who was having to learn in her own therapy how to give her husband the benefit of the doubt because it was so unnatural to me. The concept of giving someone the benefit of the doubt, instead of just assuming that it was purposeful and vindictive. Because that's what I learned. What that's interesting. You know, I learned that you should give people the benefit of the doubt. I grew up being told, if somebody is mean to you, maybe they have a hard life, maybe something happened to them. Maybe their parents are not the same as us. Maybe they have a different life. Maybe there's a reason. So always respond in kindness. No matter how someone treats you. Be kind. Always be kind no matter what. And I know that there are some that might internalize that in a completely different way than I did, but I literally heard no matter how somebody treats you, stay and try to get them to treat you better through being kind. That's what I heard. Yeah, I don't think that's what they meant. No, no. Again, like giving them the benefit of the doubt, which I learned in therapy. Yeah. No, I don't think that their intentions were bad, but, like, so. Yeah. So it really is like, it's about it's about a lack of healing, you know, like, it's about a lack of acknowledgment. Like it's about like, like you you sharing that moment where your parent may have looked at you after you had a really hard, emotional moment and asked you the question, are you done? Instead of how do you feel like that's just like like that matters. This messaging matters. Are you done now because you can be presentable again? We'll invite you back in if you're done with this. This thing, whatever it is. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And and I wasn't doing, if you like. I don't know how old I was. Three, 4 or 5 young, young that I wasn't plotting. You know, it was the same tactic that I was using. It was like, I can't cope with my feelings. So I didn't learn to regulate. I didn't learn to cope, and I didn't learn discernment. I didn't learn how to really assess the people around me. It was just like, perform for the guy around me. Be good and if you're good, be better. Keep going. Yes, absolutely. And then you'll be safe because you won't be alone. You'll. You'll belong with someone. Even if that's not a good someone. You know, I was. I spent a lot of time as a child alone. I have a sibling, but we have nothing in common. Or at least certainly when we were kids, we didn't. So we spent a lot of time apart, and I struggled to make friends. And, you know, between my sister and I, I would say that she was like the cool one and I was the nerd. And that meant that I was alone a lot. And I remember conversations as an adult with my parents that were like, oh, you were alone a lot. And I'm like, do you have eyeballs? It's shocking. it made me realize as an adult how little they saw. And again, I could say blame them for not looking, but whatever the circumstances, I it's not even at the point of what I'm saying. Right? They didn't see. So I just felt all these things. I felt alone and I had no coping skills. And all I knew was that to be seen, to be heard, I had to perform and be as good and be better and hide my emotions. And, and I would argue, and this is something that I think we can do, and it's something that I personally believe that parents are obligated to do, is we only are able to see others as clearly as we see ourselves. We are only able to recognize the same depth and other people that we have achieved in ourselves. And I think that as parents, it is our responsibility to at least try to go to someone and help us see if there are any areas where we might have blind spots, you're not emotionless like, even if you're internalizing it, I know you're feeling something in there. So where is it and what's the intensity and what triggered it? Because chances are, whatever those things are, they are going to be brought out by your partner, if not certainly your children. And like it is up to you to at least give yourself a chance to go deeper because you're raising a human. It's not a goldfish. Yeah, I figured out it was the most important job I could ever have. in one way, I want to say too late, but I think they were about 1 in 3. And I remember like, this is I knew that I it's important. I mean, I'm not completely stupid. I understood that it was an important job, but I really realized, like, wow, know so many decisions that you make matter of of course, then I'm a millennial. I went into my overthinking mode of like, you know, how do you be the perfect parent? Which, right, it's not a thing, but one thing that my own therapist taught me was using an example like the one I gave with like screaming at him, and then the repair, she was like, that's you showing him that you are a human and that you can take responsibility and accountability for what happened and do a repair and be genuine and show him something instead of just, well, I'm the adult, so I don't owe you an apology or just kind of even like sweep it under the rug, which teaches him teaches both of my kids to just, you know, their feelings don't matter. We're not going to talk about it. It's okay. Just keep it quiet. To what end? Protecting my feelings. Most likely. I think that people have a very hard time myself included, with being uncomfortable. And I think that there is a point in parenting. In fact it happens multiple times because parenthood is nothing if not a continuous evolution. Like you are obligated as a parent to continue to grow with your children. Like that is, I will stand on that hill and fight for it. Like you don't get the luxury of becoming stunted because you brought humans into the world who depend on you to teach them how to live. That is a continuous education, in my opinion. So I think that when we have moments like that where we're repairing, which can be very uncomfortable, there are moments where we're like, I'm going to repair with my kid, but I don't even want to right now. I'm doing this because I know it's the right thing to do. There are moments like that. It's not always like, oh, yay, go me. Sometimes it's really hard. I think that if we are going to be expecting to have emotional connections with our children, which children are not obligated to provide their parents, I think that we owe it to like, be emotionally intelligent and emotionally connected. I completely agree, and that's really comfortable. Yeah, yeah, I don't think we can do that when we're in terrible relationships. Right? Even if it's with the child's parent. Right. It's really hard when you are feeling like you're living in a pressure cooker. You're kind of living your childhood. How do you think people can face some of these harsh truths about themselves, where they grew up, what they've learned and how they behave? Oh, God, that's such a complicated question. don't know how to explain it any other way, but I'm sure you'll completely understand. Like, I feel like there's a moment where you have, like, a level of knowing in you that you can't avoid. I feel like we can accept, accept, accept an indoor and outdoor and indoor, but I feel like there is a personal breaking point where you feel that, like brick inside you and you're like, oh my God, like, I don't even know where to start, but I gotta start somewhere. And like, whether that's like calling a hotline, telling a friend, like reaching out to a therapist, watching a TikTok like any kind of baby step but like, don't try to unknow the knowing. I promise you, now that you've acknowledged its presence, it's only going to get louder. And then you have to ask for. It's very hard. All of this is impossible. Of course it's hard. And like, it made like the complicated thing is that, you know, if you've been conditioned to endure in a relationship, no matter how the other person treats you, no matter how unseen you may feel like you're breaking point may be far past those of other people. My was I remember getting out of my domestic violence relationship and feeling pathetic about how how bad I let it get, let it get even that like language. Like it got bad, dude. Like I struggled with a lot of humiliation. Yeah, the shame and the humiliation. Like, I stayed. And I mean, you see online, like, it's my wheelhouse online. All I see is like. But you stayed in, you picked them and you. Do we ever respond with compassion? And I really think that the fact that we may not have been shown compassion as children is a huge part of how we end up like this as adults, the kind of people who become, frankly, internet trolls and say things like that, like, I don't understand how women stay. Yes, you're right, you don't understand. Why are you talking? You don't understand a lot of things. Yeah, like I don't understand rocket science. You know what? I don't talk about rocket science. I just it's baffling to me. So instead of, like, I don't understand why women stay or I don't understand what took you so long to figure it out. So maybe rephrase that into I'm curious you know, what is it that he did that made it so hard. Or maybe you've had a really hard life that has led you to feel like this was normal and just show compassion and don't ask questions googling ask someone else. It's so crazy to me. But that shame that people are so quick to put on domestic violence survivors, we are quick to eat that up to. Yeah, take on that shame as our own. I think that that's because those seeds are planted and again, not always with ill intent, but like shame and humiliation, like fear should not be a normal part of a relationship. But for so many kids, myself included, shame and humiliation were involved in every discipline. There was no connecting like about what had happened and helping me understand the consequences of my actions. There was none of that because it hadn't been learned. And that's why we all need to go ask for help. But like, I was conditioned to believe that if I was experiencing shame and humiliation in a relationship that was normal every family has that. That's that just must be the way it is, and it is my job to actually accept it and apologize until I'm back in good graces without even knowing what I done wrong. Yeah, that part doesn't seem to matter for some reason. I know it's just so easy to take that on. Like you feel shame and therefore it must be true. You must have done something wrong. In fact, you know the expression like, well, if you feel bad, then maybe you need to reflect on what you did. Oh, that's so gaslighting. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I have heard that in my life. Yeah. And it's like, yeah, I don't know how how do you reflect. And the only message in there is that you did something wrong. And if you can't figure it out, you might want to sit there and think about it. It's like, okay, I'm just going to sit in my room and read until this goes away. Because there's no solution in there. Yeah. There's nothing. Exactly. And like, relationships are supposed to be like mirrors, like we're supposed to, like, reflect off each other and, like, acknowledge the work that we both need to do. So if it's ever a one way mirror, that's a red flag. If you're the only person in your relationship apologizing, repairing, that's a red flag. That was very much a childhood experience for a lot of us. Like parents didn't apologize. No kids. I don't think I ever heard that. Oh, I can safely say no. Yeah. The deepest acknowledgment that I got from my abusive dad was, you know, I still feel really bad about all that, right? I mean, that doesn't even sound like an apology, right? I mean, because he's. He centered himself. I still feel bad. So you're supposed to care. Take him, I assume. Well, in, like. Sorry. You feel bad. Let's compare what all of that looks like for you and me. Because we had very different experiences. You don't even remember all of that. So how can you give an apology? Not an apology, but, like, how can you give a whatever that was? You don't even understand what you've done because you've never asked. in healthy homes, like, let's condition our children to understand that it is okay for them to ask questions before they immediately just take on like, blame and responsibility or poor treatment. Like let's raise children that it is actually normal to have a dialog, not a discipline for that is so true. I there was somebody that said this recently that she doesn't she said she doesn't want to raise, obedient girls. She wants to raise dangerous girls. What she meant by dangerous. She went on to explain. But girls who question things, girls who speak up like really not dangerous at all. Just like boys, actually. But asking questions and not just being blindly obedient. Pick up your toys. Why? Because I said so instead of like. Because we all need to enjoy this space and you start teaching the whys of things and it connects kids to things instead of just like, do what I say exactly, authoritarian, which we know doesn't work. Yes. And all of us have moments like that. Like let me be so real that like, I will always be in therapy and there's still going to be moments where I default back to the voice of my father or my mother coming out of me. I like, and I'm like, acknowledge it and I'll repair it. It's may not never be completely extinguished. Like sometimes your parents do come out like sometimes like we do default back into old roles. And like that is only human because you are very hard wired, usually at very young ages. So that's that's normal. Like nobody's going to do a perfectly. But like, I think the part that matters the most is that you need to feel like you can communicate about it. Communication needs to be something that parents teach their children how to do. And communication means that it is not just you give an order and they do. Like we need to be asking our children, how do you feel? Not telling them how they feel? Like it's rare though I know, and it's harder, but that's the gig, dude. I don't know how else to say it. That's in the cliche words. That is, in my opinion, what you signed up for. Yeah, I agree though. I know, like I didn't sign up for all this. Well, I think you did when you chose to have a child, you know it. And it's so important because I, I guess, I'm obviously and I know that many women feel this way too. Like, I don't want to raise two victims. I don't want to raise two people that are going to go out into the world and get into their own relationships and have either of my kids in something, frankly, even just toxic, let alone in private. But that's why I when I think a lot about the lack of repair that I saw in the dismissiveness of feelings. So I grow up and I get into a long term relationship with someone who doesn't repair, who dismisses my feelings, who gaslights me. And gaslighting has been very present in my life, and it all just felt normal. So every time my abuser would be like, you're asking for too much or this is this isn't normal. Meaning me, I'm not normal. It was all to normalize toxic and abusive behavior, and I was just like, I hear you, you know? And it made sense being afraid in your own home. Yeah. Normal. Did I consciously think any of these things? No. Of course. Right. I think that's the most dangerous part, is that we are not consciously thinking about this. it just is. It's just true because nobody said it wasn't. Yes, yes. And like I think that that's the thing too is on the flip side of that coin from like, oh, children are little mindless, thoughtless blurbs. There's this other side of the coin where it's like, well, they should already know that. They should have known that they they figure it out. you know how often I heard figure it out. Figure what out? I have no idea what you're talking about. I can't even spell the words you're saying to me. I'm a kid. Where do you think I'm figuring it out? Yeah. Like how this how it. But listen, even now, just leave. How? What? Just figure it out. How exactly? What do you mean? It's so hard. There's so much to do. And at least as an adult in theory, you have resources. But that's the trick, is that people think. Listen, Logan, you're a grown up. You could leave. Listen, if nobody taught you how to unpack the feelings. And I think that the guilt and the shame that victims and survivors feel the humiliation of staying, and you picked them, all of that weight on their shoulders that has been normal their whole life. How were they supposed to figure out how to just go, be independent, just leave, especially if you don't have the finances, which is a whole separate topic, but all of the emotional pieces that need to be there. How do you cope? Do you know how to cope with anxiety? Because leaving is, very anxiety ridden. Process. Can you can you regulate? Let's not forget that a cortisol soaked brain is not going to default to critical thinking. Like, I think people like take for granted that if you had a childhood where you were given this space and peace and respect to develop critical thinking skills and develop a relationship with yourself that is rich. That's my generational wealth that I'm trying to generate for my children, that was not the case for so many people. Like that is a luxury, if you like like what I hear is that, like whether it was intentional or not, in the entire spectrum, in between, some parents just didn't recognize that they were dehumanizing their children. And like if you are just conditioned to believe that it is your job to be an object you are not going to value. Hold on a minute. Let me think about the implications of that for me. Yeah. It's just it doesn't come naturally. We have to teach our children that and we have to learn it. At the end of the day, at any age, in or out of an abusive relationship, whatever your relationship is with your own parents now, dead or alive, this is on us to heal ourselves for our children. But not everybody has children. And frankly, even the ones that do heal for you. Yes, do this for yourself. I have to tell you, it is a much nicer life being regulated and having clients. I prefer it, I really oh my God, I can't tell you how much I appreciate how drama free my life is. My life is so routine like for the most part. And I am okay with that. Like, I used to love the chaos because it's all that I thought to do. Like, I just, I loved it. I was conditioned to seek it like I used to create problems in my marriage in the beginning. And now I am just like, even when I'm uncomfortable. And even though it's still hard sometimes to do the work of like healthy parenting, healthy marriage, healthy friendships, I'm telling you, I would do it all over again in a heartbeat. Like I have never felt more like centered. I've never felt more like just comfortable. Like you really can actually feel comfortable in your life. You don't have to suffer suffering is not a way of life. Yeah, suffering sucks like it. And that's it's people who are unhappy. Like therapy. I know and like, really, no, therapy is not accessible to everybody. But to do your best to read the books, watch the YouTube videos, listen to the podcasts, therapy, coaching, whatever you can get your hands on to help you build these skills to be a better, more grounded, more regulated person. Yeah, overall, it's going to help. Yeah. And like whether you're a parent or not, like you really do owe it to yourself because like you can have a healthy relationship with yourself and then you can have a healthy relationship with other people, whether it's children or not. And like, there is just so much freedom in it. And so much authenticity in it. Like, you would be amazed at how much you can grow to not envy other people. You'd be amazed at how like, satisfied you can feel in your own life, but you have to work for it. I know, and I used to believe that this self-love, I would look at people and I'm like, you're you probably cry into your pillow. I don't believe you see these like self-help people online. These coaches like me now and like, you can sell self-love. I don't buy it until I bought it. Literally. And I do believe that it is available to everyone, and it really is going to come from doing that inner work and healing and not believing everything your parents even inadvertently taught you, because that sort of message that you're not worth the repair or that any of this is normal. No one ever challenged that. So a lot of these like techniques, now that you need to sort of, rewire re pattern, figure out how to shift that belief like it always felt true or somebody who is like my parents treated me badly. My brother treated me badly. My husband treated me badly. My kids treat me badly. Therefore I must be bad because it's everybody. Instead of going like, what am I allowing in my life? Not to blame. I'm talking just about the responsibility we have to get ourselves out of the situation. Maybe your parents destroyed you, but here you are. And how much longer can you live like this? So pushing back at the narrative that any of this is true, you don't deserve to be treated badly. And you can leave abusive relationships, and you can break the generational trauma and treat your children and other people so much better. Thank you so much. Thank you for this episode. I love having you and I'm sure I'll have you back again for a variety of topics, but, I'll put contact information for you in the show notes. So if anybody wants to get in touch with Logan, they can absolutely do that. But please do follow her online. CrookedCounselorCooper amazing amazing content. So I always appreciate your opinion and your voice. Thank you.