Male Fragility: Why Accountability Feels Like an Attack | Ep. 007

Male fragility isn't weakness - it's emotional inflexibility that becomes a weapon to avoid accountability. When men explode over basic feedback, it's not about your tone or timing.

This week, I'm joined by anti-misogyny educator Brent MacLerie to unpack why so many men interpret accountability as an attack. We dive into the "honesty trap" that keeps women walking on eggshells, explore how fragility becomes a control tactic, and discuss the historical roots of male entitlement in relationships. Brent shares his insights on distinguishing between genuine emotional immaturity and weaponized fragility, plus the one key indicator that shows whether a man is capable of real change.

Resources Mentioned:

Lundy Bancroft’s checklist https://lundybancroft.com/articles/checklist-for-assessing-change-in-men-who-abuse-women/ 

Connect with Brent MacLerie:

YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@ex.patriarch and on TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@expatriarch?lang=en 

Transcript

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You are so fragile. The not only can you not be vulnerable, you cannot even say vulnerable. And at no point has anything fired to say that is a problem. If I can't be vulnerable, I can't be honest. Welcome to another episode of Real Talk with Lisa Sunny relationships uncensored, and I am just absolutely bursting at the seams with excitement to have Brant McLerrie on the show today talking about male fragility. This is a topic as an abuse educator online who speaks to women. It's just something I see so commonly in stories from my clients, but also in the comment sections from Just the Worst of the Worst Kind of Men. And you are an anti misogyny educator, among other things. But why don't you tell us a little bit about you first? Sure. So, my name is Brant McCleary. I am, I kind of fell into being a content creator. I'm a father and a husband, and I saw a lot of kind of like the misogyny a lot of you deal with. And just really wanted to make content to kind of push back and kind of provide a factual basis for some of this misogyny to kind of counter the misinformation that's out there, that it's flooded into the comments. And so that has now spun into me, you know, being a content creator, posting videos to TikTok and YouTube, educating and talking about it, and just helping men to unpack where this comes from. Why? Why is there this constant need to push back and this, feeling of, oh, I need to go challenge people on the internet every time they say something that that hurts my feelings. I never even thought about fragility. And I think even that word like fragile, it's sort of ooh men are sensitive. Men are weak. I think that's how men hear that. That's my view. And it's not really quite what it means when you, if you were asked or you're being asked what is male fragility? How would you describe that? that's a good thing to unpack. I think you're right. I think a lot of like the reaction that comes from men about fragility is this, this idea that you aren't tough, that you can't take anything that, you know, you are weak. And I think that's probably the worst thing you can accuse a man of, right? Like if you really want to just ruin his reputation and strip away every piece of power that he thinks he has, the idea that you're weak and having to admit that, is really tough for men to get to. So I the way that I would define fragility, though, is I think I wouldn't define it in that way of like, being weak. I think it is. Instead an inflexibility. Right? I think it's an inability to adapt to change and to deal with challenges and difficult situations. And I think that's where that fragility comes from. I completely agree. I wish it was called something else, almost, but yet it makes sense because it is sort of a fragility. But it's not weakness in the sense of I think men see it as like, I can fight, you know, like they immediately go to like, physical violence or, or physical power, but it's how it has shown up for me. What I've seen is all these sort of, I would say, even like a trap in these relationships where the just be honest with me and then you're screamed at because they can't actually handle the honesty. They take it in a completely different way. What they actually wanted was reassurance, not honesty. That wasn't what they were going for at all. I think even, the tone policing that you see, like I had to use specific words at specific times and frankly, that didn't work. But women tend to find themselves trying to find the right way, the right moment, the right words in order to not get such a big emotional reaction. That always shocks me that, like, women are the emotional ones, and yet men are punching holes in walls and flipping their lid when their team loses or whatever. It's like, no, I'm pretty sure we're not the emotional ones here. Yeah, I think I've got a video that I'm going to make on that. It's just going to show a bunch of, like, male sports stars when they lose or defeated and like, there's one of, like a tennis player who destroys like three rackets in a row. There's another golf player who just starts whacking the golf course and ends up breaking like a sprinkler. Like, yeah, that's like very emotional behavior, right? Yeah. But I how how we get this wrap for being the emotional ones. This beyond me, I know, but I think you hit it on correctly. It's like talking about like this this trap. Right. Because, you know, men talk about like they can't talk about their feelings. Right? This is a this is like something that you will actually hear a lot from. And they want to be more emotional. They want to express these things. And then they have these conversations of relationships where they're like, no, you can tell me, you can be honest. And then the moment they do, like they are not able to deal with that new information in a way that doesn't just result in that explosion of emotion. And I think that's what I mean when I talk about like, you know, just not being able to adapt or to those challenges of something has come along that has, challenged your view of how a relationship should be or how that power dynamic in a relationship should be. And the moment that happens, like you have no ability to cope or adapt to that new situation. Yeah. You freak out, you know, it's being said, you know, told, being told that you can be honest with someone and then having that honesty met with rage. Women are afraid to actually be honest in some cases. And it makes sense and I, I cannot tell you. Oh my God, I would be if I had a nickel for every time I heard this that men say, you know, be honest. And then they scream at their partner or they can't handle what's being said, they lose their minds. And women are like shaking in the corner, having feeling like they're walking on eggshells, really in their relationships. So I think they can't have feelings. Right? That's the common belief. So I'm not allowed to have feelings. You're allowed to have feelings and you're not allowed to scream at me. And I don't understand why. Like the the ability to have feelings means any feeling, any emotion, any display. And it shouldn't create fear or it shouldn't create a bad reaction. I'm allowed to have feelings and my feelings should be at full volume in your face. Well, I just punched a hole in the wall. Like, your feelings are scary. But that's what I think. Yeah, and the thing it's like when you talk to men, they understand this. I used to be involved with the local church, and I used to do, partnership for men. And we'd get in these groups and it'd be so interesting to me to live here in, like, the deepest red state, you know, conservative Christian Texas, and to have these men and get them in a private room and open up and they would say a lot of this stuff. Right? Like, I want to be more emotional. I don't feel like I can say these things. And in part of impacting their story, they would talk about their fathers and they would talk about exactly that behavior from their fathers. Right. Like that their fathers would flip out, be violent, that they would live in fear. They would always be scared when dad came home that they would try to stay out of his way. You know, if you heard the door slam, you knew he had a bad day at work and just leave him on the couch with a beer, watching TV, not to be anywhere near him. Like, and you talk about this in here, like, oh my gosh. Like, so. So you get it. You understand what it's like to live in that household to to be around that man. And then yet at the same time, knowing and recognizing that they see that, that they fall into the same pit and that when they're challenged or when they're stressed or are dealing with these emotions, that is the only way they know to cope. And then they're like, I know it's wrong. But like, that's how I end up being. And I'm like, can you not see how you're just like the fear and the shame that you had? Your giving that to the people in your house, your children, your wives, their spouses, your partners? And it's such like they had not connected those two dots a lot of the time. And that is like, I think that's that's such a wild thing to help them explore. I get asked a lot like, you know, the way that I talk often, like sometimes about men or male fragility or respect or abuse, it's like you're not helping, you're not helping. And I have to admit, I honestly, I think I heard Drew Aphelios say this once and I was like, I love this comment. I absolute it's so true. Why do you think I'm trying to help? I realized that's not my job and that's not my goal, and I'm not trying to harm. But I'm allowed to talk about experiences that women have without thinking. If this helps men, I admit I really have this feeling of like, no, you help yourselves because when women arguably try to help, we get pushback. Like, I get called a misandrist every day of my life. I remember the first time I ever heard that word was like semi recently. In fact, it might have been like three years ago. I was like, what? And I had to Google it. I'd never heard it before. And then coincidentally, a few days later, I saw a video that you made and I was like, oh my God, this like is all coming together. But the even the understanding of what a misandrist is versus what a misogynist is and the comparison and actually, to quote Drew again, misandry isn't real, but if it is, it's a response to misogyny. And I was like, that's the most perfect definition I've ever heard, because the hatred of men the way that I think, you know, if if it showed up the way that misogyny did, that would be a real problem, obviously. But it tends to be like, we don't want to help the people that are harming us. I tried to help someone for a decade. I nearly died doing it, so I've kind of given up. But I do love the work that a lot of men do, such as yourself, that are actually trying to help men to make those kind of connections. When I think of something like, the criticism, if you say to a man who's abusive or toxic or whatever, hey, this hurt me, it's like, oh, so I'm a piece of crap. Holy man, how we take such a leap. Why do you think that happens? What's going on in their minds? I think at the core of it is that inability to accept challenge or criticism. Right. How many times have you seen a video or be heard men talk about I want her to be my piece. Right? You're nagging me. You should leave me alone. Like they really struggle with it. And I think We talk about it often is like respect, right? That it all stems from this idea of if you respected me, you wouldn't challenge me. If you respected me, you just accept my view. And I thing is, like, that's a complete misunderstanding of what respect is. If you respect someone, you should feel safe around them, right? if you don't want it to give you criticism. If I was in, you know, an employment situation, I had a boss and I feared giving him criticism because he was going to lash out. I don't respect him, I fear him. If I respected them, it would be that sense of I can go to them with criticism and questions. I can say, hey, that decision didn't make sense to me. Can you explain why you did that? Or, hey, I don't like the way that we're doing this. I feel unsafe when you do this. Is there a way that we can change the way you could have those grown up conversations with somebody you respect? I think we don't kind of get that because we're taught again from that, that sense of and I think we take this from the individual into systems , right, like this is where we start spinning out into like what, what patriarchy instills into us and teaches us right is that men are the head of the household. They're unquestionable. We're still kind of carrying over a lot of like this coverture idea of men own everything in the household is property. And so, well, if I'm above you and I own you, I am beyond reproach, I'm beyond criticism, and I can settle into that role. So there's no expectation that the other people in the household should criticize me. And so when it is criticism, well, then that's why everything starts to unravel and on spiral, because this whole kind of pyramid scheme topples down, because now I'm no longer this godlike figure who is unquestionable on top of everything. Now I have to deal with like, oh, am I doing something wrong? Is there something I could be doing better than that? Now we're starting to talk about a partnership right now. We're starting to talk about compromise and all of those difficult conversations that, we don't want to deal with, we want to avoid, what you're describing is like respect is deference, and I mean, you see that a lot. And like the men as leaders and heads of household, it's, you know, default to him and defer to his decisions. I so remember this conversation with my ex and it was towards the end and he was like, you don't even respect me. And I remember I was about to defend I remember opening my mouth in sort of, you know, you're right. But that was nine years in and quite close to the end, in fact. But I remember, you know, I was like, I wanted to say, I do respect you. I don't, though. And then it started making me think, well, why why don't I he's absolutely right. You do nothing that's respectful. You haven't led us well, you know, I like he couldn't lead our way out of a paper bag. Honestly, a wet paper bag, in fact. and he wasn't respectful towards me, towards our family. And I realized years later, you know, it hit me like a ton of bricks. And it's so obvious. Of course, now is like, you expected that you felt entitled to your version of respect. No matter how you show up, no matter what you put into this, no matter what you say or do, your behavior is absolutely irrelevant. You deserve it because you're a man. That's it. Very fragile in hindsight. Yeah. No, I mean, that's a great point. I at it and this is the thing I kind of person and reiterate with these men is obviously when they're in that, that they're like, oh, my family doesn't respect me. I'm like, respect is earned. Respect comes from character. It comes from that decision making. It comes from the principles you show. It comes from somebody coming to you with the question and you respecting their side of the story. Being able to give wisdom and insight like these are like the qualities we think of when we think of respect. When you talk about like you should trust everything I say without questions like, that's fear. Fear is what you're forcing on people. And I think what we're not willing to accept and talk about is it's so intrinsically tied into this idea that the only way you motivate people in our society, like the way we teach, is through violence and fear. Those are the two pieces. If you're empathetic, if you're compassionate, you're weak, you're being abused. They're taking advantage of you, right? any time you give and they're like, oh, well, you're going to be taken advantage of. You’re like, no, maybe I'm just wanting to understand somebody on the other side of the story. Maybe I'm just wanting to hear I could be wrong. Wrong. And and we've taken that that violence and that fear, and then we've instilled it into our family unit and our relationships. And that is what we've used now to to decide what respect is, is that you should you should fear challenging you. You should be thinking twice about challenging me or about trying to go against my rules. You know, the rules of my house, right? You know how I expect you to dress like, oh, sure. Yeah. There's an expectation. And and I think really at the root of this is an entitlement as well. Like to the respect to that kind of treatment to being the provider, the leader, the whatever. That's just what is expected. Where does this really come from? Like even the concept that respect really to men seems to be fear. They just don't quite see it that way. Where do you actually, if you're getting into the root of this big question for me, I know. Yeah. I mean, for me, like, it's the more I dig into this and the more I like research this material and make these videos and talk about this, I cannot step away from the sense that this, this all comes from, like I say, the the old long traditions of patriarchy, of what was called Paterfamilias in like the Roman times, where there was this elder head of the household who owned everything, and we then enshrined those as laws through common law, through a sense, a laws called coverture. Right? Men owned all of the wages that women and women were property. You know, if they ran away from the house, they would put out newspaper ads saying, you know, do not trust this woman. And she's run out of the household and, and, you know, she's no longer under my cover because she's contradicting me, because there was this expectation that in a marriage, a wife could go, like, buy and and sell things and do trade under the idea that she was an agent of her husband so that they were aligned. But the moment that she was not aligned with him. Right? She would do her own thing, she would be cast out from the household and like, say, these adverts would be put in the paper of, you know, there's this, you know, unruly wife. Right. And all of this stuff. And I think, like, as much as, like, we don't like that seems so irrelevant to what we've got now. I think so much of those attitudes are just baked into our society that we've still kept all of that. And this idea of, I'm only going to protect women who agree with me. I'm only going to protect women that I benefit from. I'm only going to provide for them. And we see it not just like in relationships here where we talk about like, well, when there's a challenger, there's criticism. But think about like child supports, like the huge one, right? The moment that the wife and the child are outside of my household. Well, I don't see the point in paying for it. Why am I paying all this money? I need to know every bill, like there's so many of these discussions around manhood and providing and protecting And the moment he doesn't get basically like you talked about, like a subservient person who is different to them and just praises them. it's such a loss to me when we talk about relationships for men, because you no longer have a whole other person to help you, to support you, to be a partner and to take that load. And they put it all on themselves and then turn around and say, well, I have all this weight on me. You don't know what it's like to be me. I have to do all of these things. I'm the provider and you're like, you have a willing partner who would take these things on if you met them halfway, But they don't seem to want to. And I guess, I mean, maybe there's an association with being feminine if you step up into your house. I watched a video recently and I think it was a stitch, but it was a couple talking about men feeling like they're only money in their house. And it was something like not an official study, but a study that they sort of unofficial that they conducted. That said, 60 something percent of men feel like they're just money, they're just a bank account. And what was so interesting was they were like, isn't that sad? And they kept talking about it. And I actually I would say they're right. I bet you in the little study that they conducted, I bet you any money they are absolutely correct. It was 60 something percent, but they never asked why. And it was the creator who stitched it, who said they obviously missed that part of the why. If you show up and you say, But I'm the provider, I'm the provider. And that's how you see yourself and you don't offer anything else, you're going to be seen as the thing that you're offering. So it's like this real catch 22, which honestly kind of leads me back to men create a lot of their own problems, and then they just blame women like it's women's fault that they feel like a bank account, and yet they themselves show up as a bank account and don't provide anything else. Right. You know, I'm not going to help more with the dishes or the childcare. That's your job. I provide the money. Weirdly, even when they both work. That's a paradox that just escapes me. I don't understand that one. I hadn't seen the video you're talking about, but I think I've seen I've seen the opposite video, like so. I saw a video on TikTok recently, and it was a wife talking to her husband and asking that, like saying, hey, we both work, but I do the dishes. I look after the kids, I put them to bed, I take them to appointments, I do all the meals and you just work and bring home money. Do you think that's fair? And he goes, yeah, they did. So like, yeah. No, I mean you're you're absolutely right. Like and I remember back when I was single, I was in a singles group and there was a man there and he was complaining that all he ever found were these relationships where all women wanted out of him was this money I was so tired of, you know, I'm all these dating these women, and they're just after my money. And I dug in like I was talking to about it. And first off, like he was a guy in his 40s who was only interested in super attractive 20 year old women and I was like, like, so what are you bringing to the relationship? And he's like, well, well, I've got this house and I've got the sports car, and I buy them nice things and I take them. So some like. So you're only contributing money like that is the only thing that you are bringing to the relationship. So of course the other person is like that's all you are to me, because that's all you're bringing to the relationship. There's so much more that you could. And you're right. Like if talking about like self-inflicted wounds, there's so much more you could bring to that relationship. And when you do, you can be valued for more than that, right? You can be valued for the emotional support you bring. And I think, you know, you can be valued for being a partner in the household. And like, that's a lot of the stuff that, you know, I talk about with my wife and you know, she's like, oh my gosh, you know, I was so worried that I was going to have to do all of this, housework after I finish my day at work. And you already anticipate that I needed to do that and done it. And I'm like, yeah, because that's the relationship we have. It's not her job, my job. We work together to build a household. And then I don't feel like, oh, the only thing I contribute is money. Yeah. How do you set yourself up that way? In a good way. You set yourself up to not just be one thing you are many things. That's almost like the whole point. You know, it's so interesting to me to see so many men complain about marriages. I saw another video where, like, a guy was proposing, I think, at Disneyworld. And like, a guy drives past with a push stroller and his wife, so he has a child and a wife or a partner, I should say I shouldn't assume it's his wife. And he's like tapping him, saying like, don't do it. Don't do it, man. It's not worth it. And you're like, wait, what's your inner bitch sonship telling another man, like, why do you not see that? That was something maybe you should looking within and try to fix. But so many men are like, they complain that they're lonely and desperate and don't have relationships. But then on the flip side, they also complain that all of their relationships are miserable and lonely and they, you know, like you talk about like they feel it and you're like, do you not think maybe there's something about the structure and the way that you're setting up that relationship to where, you know, you don't feel like you're you're in with an equal, you're not looking for an equal. You're not looking for a partner. You are just looking for, you know, a thing to own, to show off to your friends. Do you know that that might be what send you for misery? I think they're like what you're describing. It's almost funny to me. Like it's I want a wife. I would love a wife. That sounds great. Anyone would want what these men are describing, but do they not? And it's like the part that they're missing is that it's a crap deal for the wife. It's a crap deal for the person who's being asked to perform 24 over seven. I mean, the balance of I do everything and somebody else provides money, which again, 75%, give or take, both are working in these relationships. So you're not even providing all of the money, not even the breadwinner in some of the cases. But regardless, women are always doing more. You see these I would never forget this video of this man that was sitting in his car. Like, I just I want to settle down. Where are these good women? I can't find one. You know, I don't want to make all my appointments. I don't want to go to the bank. I don't want to do these things. I want a wife. And I was like, you literally described in an assistant. You wanna get married for the purpose of having these things done for you. And I bet he's only offering money. I bet that's all he's offering. And I bet that guy in particular also wants her to work. That's that whole joke right now. If they want a submissive provider, but what's interesting to me is that, you know, we talk about some of the roots of this, and I, I'm so glad that you work with some men who are open to change. And hearing this, because I think there's this line that I see between the toxic men who don't see this, but could see this and are willing to do some work. And then there's the abusive men that use male fragility as a tool. It's actually not necessarily that they don't quite see it. I think there's a much deeper thing going on here. They want us to think, you know, that's just how men are. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that right. That's just how men are. All men. Something, something. And it always makes me laugh because I know I'm cheeky as hell and I'm like, I thought it was not all men. What happened to not all men? Because it sounds to me like all men cheat. Are all men feel a certain way until somebody says all men. And then it's like, well, wait, wait, not all men hold, which is it? But they want us to believe that all men don't understand this or that, you know, respect and fear and that they all feel this way. But I don't know if that's true. I think some know that this is a problem and they're using it as a weapon, like all these traps that we were talking about. When you say, just be honest with me and then they're honest, you got to give her the invitation. You got to sound like a man who wants honesty. So you can say that, right? I value honesty, but if you scream at your wife when you receive the honesty, do you actually. So tell me how you see this. Like blocking accountability for this type of men. This little subcategory of. Yeah. No, I think you're absolutely right. Right there. definitely there are some men who are not seeing it, and there are men who absolutely understand it. And when I think of that, I think of absolutely. When you look at like the content of Andrew Tate right, his whole right, that reaction is accurate. But you think about his whole scheme hey, I'm teaching you how to make money and how to make money was to, you know, love bomb. Somebody nagged them into having low self-esteem and abuse them into where then they will do anything for you. And you can essentially use them as slave labor and profit from them, from doing these things. And, yeah, you know, almost no men call him out for that. Right. And how abusive that is. They're willing to turn around and say, yeah, I know that's, how things should be. That is accurate. That is what's missing. That is what these men should be. And I do think you're right in that it's it's all about avoiding that accountability because there are these hard conversations that we need to have about if I want a relationship, it should be an emotionally safe environment. I don't think any of us, when we're talking about a relationship, feel that a key component of a relationship is I should feel scared or frightened, and I shouldn't be able to, like, speak my mind, right? That I should be. But you can't have that in an environment like you talk about where you say, be honest with me and he flips out, or he's violent, or he lashes out, or, you know, the other one silent treatment. Right? For for days of like, oh, you see him withdraw and know that he's, you know, punishing you in that way for you being honest and telling him what's going on. if we accept that the foundation of a relationship emotional safety the you should be able to come to me with your concerns, with your criticisms of hey, you could do this better because Lord knows when we it from the flip side, men have no problem bringing their criticisms to their problems. You're not cooking the dinner, right? You're not taking the kids, right? You're not. I don't believe in the rules that you've got in. Like, we have no problem listing out a laundry list of things that you are doing wrong in our relationship. The bare bone, like the bare minimum, should be that. That should go both ways. And all of this is to avoid that conversation of this is a double standard. It is unfair. I should never be criticized. So yeah, I agree completely with you. It's wild. Like, I don't know. I'm thinking of this example with my son where his dad said, man up, he's three. He was crying. I can't remember what he was crying about. And it was probably ridiculous. He's three. Right? But yeah, man, for sure. I'm like, man up. And I remember getting in his face, honest, I was so angry. I was like, you will never speak to my son this way. And of course it's not my son, it's our son. I was like so raged about it and he was like, no, it's it's my son, it's our son. I can talk to you about how you parent. I can get involved, I can you are not here. You're never here. You are not really participating in this life. You can criticize my parenting for letting him cry, right? No problem. But I'm not allowed to say don't tell a three year old child to man up. It's wild. But it was very clearly teaching to be stoic. At three, right? Which could only be from fear. Right? Getting loud and like, man up, stop crying. How is that helpful? I mean, children of that age don't even have the ability to regulate them that way. But would he ever say that to a daughter? No, it's the it's for boys. And then we will turn around and then turn around and say, well, you know, men aren't allowed to express their feelings, you know, like, yeah, because I'm three years old. I was told I wasn't allowed to have my feelings. I was told to stuff them down. And I think that's the other thing. It's like, you know, men don't accept that. Like the people who police men's emotions more are other men, right? They will absolutely mock and ridicule. We have so many words for an effeminate man, right? There's so many of them. I'm not gonna repeat them. A lot of them are slurs But there's so many insults to men who are showing a vulnerable side to them. And there are men out there. I saw a podcast with, like, a group of men, you know, talking, having these conversations, and they literally talked about, oh, he doesn't use the V word. I'm sorry. What he's like. Yeah. I don't like the V word, I like you. You are so fragile that not only can you not be vulnerable, you cannot even say vulnerable. And at no point has anything fired to say that is a problem. If I can't be vulnerable, I can't be honest. That's sad though. You know I actually that that's where some empathy comes back for me in this situation. You know I can stuff that down as often as I try. But it is actually it's sad when, when I hear that if men are receiving feedback criticism of any kind even, you know, and again, women are so tone policed with how they present this feedback. You got the right moment, not after work or when they wake up, but not too close to when they woke up. And you use the exact right words and it could even be like, babe, I miss you and I want to spend more time with you. I want to feel closer. And it's like, oh, so you don't appreciate that I work and I'm trying to do this for us. And it's like they hear you're failing, you're not good enough. And they kind of almost. I wonder if they almost hear that their wife is dominating them or their partner is speaking out of line, but that's so fragile to not be able to receive feedback. And it's so questionable to me because if your boss said, hey, Brant, can we talk? You know, this project didn't go the way we wanted it to. Can we talk about what you could have done better? I like, would you went throw a stapler across the office? How come they don't do it to other men? Why do you think it's towards women? Why is it in relationships? It's not always romantic relationships, I realize. But why is it towards women? I mean, are you ready for the answer? Really? I mean, because I don't think they fundamentally have that respect. I think that's what it comes back down to, is I think there's so much of masculinity and manhood that is nothing more than an elaborate pissing contest between men. And I think that's why is because they know that like it's all a front. We all do. And so we're all constantly vying and jockeying for position. But there's no benefit to being over a woman because I'm already over a woman. So I don't need to show that deference or respect to women because there's no woman that would ever be about me. And I've talked about this before and I've said, like, you know, you can instantly spot a man like this because you just ask them, like, you know, who's a woman you admire, businesswoman, you know, a scientist, somebody who's incredibly smart, like name a woman that you admire. And they will be like, well, you know, I don't I admire men like. Yeah, that's that's because you don't fundamentally think a woman would ever be worthy of respect. Yeah. That's interesting. You know, as I've been raising two young children, I read books where the protagonist or the hero or is female. Not only. I'm just saying, like, I ensure that both of my children are hearing that and seeing that because I don't want either of my kids to see men as superior I'm aiming for equality. Of course, I think so much of this, it affects men and women. Right. And I think that's the big point, is that, you know, we act like this only affects women. I talk about how it affects women. You probably talk about both, certainly. But women are regulating themselves to keep the peace being policed, making sure it's the right thing at the right time. And I often find that there's kind of a you were put in these double bind because there is no winning. whether you bring it up on a Thursday night, a Saturday morning before work, after work, or use whatever words, you're still wrong. So it's a real double bind. But women tend to silence themselves. They go quiet instead of being honest, and you blame yourself for hurting his feelings when you could have given a woman the same feedback and she wouldn't have her feelings hurt as much. So we blame ourselves instead of examining his reaction and kind of looking at that like, what's toxic about this reaction or what's unhealthy? We might think that we're too much, or we walk on eggshells because of our requests, not because he's an angry person or because he's a controlling person. Because I think we often think, too, that, like, men can't control themselves. Yet abuse has been proven to be quite controlled. So it kind of connects back to this being a tool for this category of men that they use that anger. And Chuck Daire, the founder of the Gender Violence Institute, has said that he sees all of this anger as a tool and that men benefit from using these tools. Male fragility is just kind of at the core of it. But they're not going to be accountable until they work on not being so fragile. Baby, don't punch walls. And it would be it would be a benefit. Oh man. Yeah. And I think but this is this speaks to like how big the problem is because I think there is like an aspect that you're talking about there of like look you can't bring somebody to make these changes. They have to want to make it for themselves. And I think there's a lot that's misunderstood about how, you know, these men need therapy or they need help and I'm sure that would be helpful. But it's it's like a personal trainer, right? It's not like a doctor where you break your arm, you go see the doctor, they fix the broken arm. You send you home, they give you some medication. Everything's great. It's like a personal trainer that they give you a list of things to do. And if you don't do them, you're going to get, you know, bigger muscles. You're not going to lose weight. You're not going to do those things. And I think there's a lot with, with men when they go to therapy thinking, oh, I'm just going to get fixed or I'm going to. And it's not that it's work, right. It's it's about unpacking a lot of this stuff, but it's also not on the individual basis. When you have a society that devalues women as much as our society does, where it celebrates the violence and degradation of women, it's understandable that that then leaks into relationships. And you have to make sure that a foundation of your relationship is going to be a barrier around that, that we're going to watch for those signs. There's disregard, like actual disrespect, what that looks like in a relationship. I'm making sure that on both sides, hey, we're not going to come to it. But also when it happens, having those conversations of, hey, that didn't feel great to hear. I didn't like the way that that was behavior and knowing that it would be taken in that response of, oh, I hurt you, I'm going to adapt and change my behavior when typically what is the response that we often get right? Is, oh, well, you were wrong for feeling that way. Oh, I didn't mean it right. It wasn't intentional. God, you make such a big deal out of it. But if somebody steps on your foot and you tap them on the shoulder and you say, hey, you're stepping on my foot and they go, oh, I, I didn't know I was stepping on your foot. And then just keep stepping on your foot. Like, that's not respect. That's not them making a change. They need to adapt those behaviors either way. And I think that's what I would like, you know, people to understand is I get the empathy part of it. And yes, there's a lot we need to fix with men and reeducate with men. And I think it's on men like myself and other, that I'm friends with who are going out into schools. They're creating these, you know, camps for men to help out, talk to them, to open up and bring this other side of them. But that has to be something they do and choose to do. It's not something you can do for them. And in the meantime, you have to look at like, what am I having to take on? How much am I having to shrink and make less of myself just to survive? That shouldn't be the goal of a relationship to survive. You know? And it's certainly what ends up happening in these abusive relationships. So I want to kind of finish off with this one sort of question. What do you think women need to feel or see to know that he's the guy that could change or the guy that can't change? I know it's a really layered question. It is, because I'm not sure that I know a good answer to it. Right. Because I would love to be able to sit here and say, I know this. The problem is, is I see the flip side of it of there are so many of the men who claim to want to change, who want to be those men who end up not being, I'm going through this currently with a friend of mine who is looking to leave a relationship, and they were talking to us about, should I talk to him first, should I just leave and all this and really great guy, like there's no signs of any issues. And our advice has been like, no, don't talk to him. First you need to leave first because there are so many stories of men who are really great partners, really loving. But the moment that they get that sense that the relationship is going to end, they turn around and do the most horrific things and it's just not worth that risk. So I'm like a very pessimistic to, to to this minute. But as an educator on this, I think the real kind of key as to how can you tell if he's willing to work really comes back to that emotional safety. Right. Can you have a conversation with them, what you're talking about? Look, I have these issues. I have these problems. We need a space to discuss them where I'm not looking to drag you down. I'm not looking to criticize you, but can I just share how I'm feeling, let you sit with that, and then we'll come back later and talk about can we make changes to make sure that those things don't happen? Is that a conversation you feel comfortable having? Can you try to have that conversation? And if you can, I think that that person then is somebody who would be willing to change. But I think it has to come from from that. If they're not willing to provide a space for you to air those grievances, those challenges, I don't see that being a space in which, regardless of how much he says he's going to change is going to, you know, and I experienced that on the flip side in that I was in an abusive relationship with a woman who was like that, who, you know, was constantly telling me I'm changed or it's because of this, or I went through this as a child and, and I constantly gave that empathy of like, oh, they've been through it. They've had a rough ride. Right? I can be there for them. I can be their strength. And it doesn't work ultimately. Like they have to be willing to change and provide a space where they recognize the criticisms you give and understand, even if they don't agree. Right. They don't have to agree. But understand that it's important to you, important enough for them to want to make a change, to make you feel safe. And that safety has to be priority. I think the lack of listening when they're receiving feedback and you are seeking emotional safety, you're seeking this conversation to see if they can change. You can tell often when they're admitting that they're bad, but they won't say abusive or they're sort of dancing around it, or they sort of say like, I know, I know, I'm bad. But you also, you can tell. And actually, Lindy Bancroft, author of Why Does He Do That, has such a great list. I always tell people, look up the list of reasons or ways you can tell that he's changing because it's such a great list. You can tell when they're taking accountability or not. And I know some are really covert and they can kind of sound like it. But I think fundamentally, it's the feeling that you have in that conversation of I feel so nervous. I feel so unsafe. That's a good sign that change is not possible. So I'm a big fan of just leaving and have that conversation when you're safe because you just never know. It's so true. You think, oh, he's never hit me. Well, just wait until you leave and then suddenly it's justified, right? She left him. So what did you expect her? You never really know. So to keep yourself safe, you got to be careful. There was a new story on that, and I posted about it on TikTok, and there were so many comments from men who said exactly that of what did she expect? She was taking the kids from him. She was taking everything from him. She was taking it home. and they were justifying taking her life. And I'm I do not, do not, cannot understand how you would ever justify that. Men seem to find a way. Well, just the fragile ones. Well, thank you so much for talking about this topic, because I always think that you know, it. It benefits to have a male voice in this space, talking about men to men from the male experience that helps them. But I think also it's really validating for women to hear. And I also think that it's important for women to know that there are good men out there. And as much as I'm half kidding when I say this, but it really isn't all men. There are good men out there. I have one, you are one. It's. It sounds like you're happily married and, no one's marriage is perfect, right? But people can know that, you know, you can leave a terrible, fragile man and find one that's good or be single, because that's better than an abusive or toxic man. Absolutely. Yeah. And it's interesting how so many of the men in this space that are doing this education are talking to these men are in like, really happy, wonderful relationships, because we're constantly told will be forever alone and that we're only doing this for, for attention from other women. And we're like, nope, we're good. We don't need attention from anybody else. We're just trying to help. Yeah, just trying to like, this is this is what you apparently want, and we're just trying to help you get there, my friend. Yeah. God, they'll get there one day. Fingers crossed. But if not, leave them there. The final piece of advice, the encouraging thing I would say is like, my wife is a therapist and she's talked about like over how in recent years there are so many more men now who are getting to that point of realizing that they need help and reaching out and working through and understanding that like, hey, I have a lot of these, this fragility, and I understand that it's built to me and I have to work on it. And I think that's the thing to take away is like, it's so encouraging to hear that there are so many men who are seeing this isn't helping, this isn't working, and I need to try something else. I wish that instead they were coming at it from the oh, my behavior is unacceptable, right? That should have been the first red flag. But we'll we'll stop where we are. Yeah. Take we can get a little bit in that case. So thank you so much for being here. And I will link all of your socials if everybody wants to follow you online. Check the description, check the show notes and that's where you'll find him. You can get a lot of great content, including that series of yours that I, you know, it's not constant, but, these are not facts. Instead of things you made up to justify your feelings. I love that one. You guys have to watch that. So check him out. I'll take his socials. And thank you so much, and we'll see you again.