It’s Not That He Doesn’t Know It’s That He Doesn’t Care.. | Ep. 011

There's a kind of abuse happening in relationships that doesn't involve broken dishes or broken bones, but it's just as damaging. It's the slow destruction of your sense of self through weaponized incompetence, emotional labor dumping, and the constant message that you should just accept less because "that's how men are."

This week, I sit down with Abby Eckel, online content creator known for challenging gender norms and traditional relationship stereotypes. They dive deep into how we're conditioned from childhood to normalize harmful relationship dynamics - from the "boys will be boys" mentality to the expectation that women should just pick up the slack when men refuse to participate in the lives they asked for. Abby shares her insights on the difference between men who genuinely don't understand versus those using weaponized incompetence, why Fair Play doesn't work for most couples, and the reality that you cannot make someone care about your wellbeing. We also discuss the privilege of being able to "just leave" and what women can do when leaving isn't immediately possible.

Resources Mentioned:

Fair Play by Eva Rodsky

"She Divorced Me Because I Left Dishes by the Sink" article

Follow Abby Eckel on Instagram

Transcript

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I think, men are taught a lot to believe that they want a wife and kids. Not that they want to be a husband and a father. Having a wife and kids is not the same as being a husband and a father. 00000. This is the podcast that they don't want you listening to. We're not talking about broken dishes. We're not talking about broken bones. But the kind of abuse that you don't even quite realize is even happening. And so I am joined by Abby, who is online. And I know you're kind of known as marriage and motherhood. But why don't you sort of introduce yourself and let people know who you are? I'm Abby Eckel. You can find me everywhere on Abby Eckel or Facebook is the only place where it's The Abby Eckel, but everywhere else, it's just Abby Eckel. And I basically talk a lot about, challenging, gender norms and traditional relationship stereotypes, as well as helping women to deconditioned from patriarchal societal conditioning. I love it. One of my most favorite things about being a woman in this time, in this day and age, is learning about this concept. Because I was completely unaware when I was in my long term relationship that this was abuse. And for me, for those that know me online, like I experienced physical abuse. But you'd think that was obvious. It wasn't that obvious to me when I was in it, which I know was like, what the heck? But I think that the biggest part here is that there's so much abuse that happens that is not yelling. I have tons of clients who tell me you never called me a bad name. He's never, you know, screamed at me. But it's the sort of the dumping of everything onto you and making everything your problem. That's why I feel like your content has just resonated with me so much. What led you to talk about this? Gosh. You know, honestly, I think it was in 2021. I had been on TikTok for about a year. I was in like a weird place in my, like, influencer journey. I started, like, influencing, if you will, in 2018, like a year after my second son was born. And I was like, yeah, this really feels disingenuous to me. Like, I am not one to, like, take pictures and sell you like an outfit. Like, I just don't do that. And when I got on TikTok, I think, like everybody else in 2020 when Covid, and I started talking about, like how my husband and I split, like, chores in our house. And I remember one day I was outside, like, we have this nice little, like, cul de sac that we live in, and our neighbors, we're like, oh, man, what are we gonna have for dinner? And I was like, oh, idunno, Mike’s making some quinoa thing that he always makes. And they were like, what? And I was like, yeah, no, it's really annoying. I hate this quinoia thing. He makes it like every week on his nights to cook. And they were like, I don't understand. And I was like, so each week, like at the time, like he would cook for a whole week and then the week that he would cook, I would be in charge of putting the boys spread, and then we would switch. And this one every other week, every other week. And I was like, explaining this. And they were like, your husband cooks. He puts the kids to bed. And I was like, yes, yes he does. What do you mean? And I started talking about that online and I got the same reaction from women. They were like, what? And then I was also talking to my therapist, and she was like, you would love this book called Fair Play. And I was like, cool. Checked it out. Initially, like at the time, I loved it. I thought this could be a really tangible way for women to, like, make the invisible labor that they do visible. If you know, the fair play method comes with a book, it's a great book regardless. And then a set of cards, it talks about all the tasks that you need to do to make a home run. And so I started talking about that, but that was really kind of like my dipping toe in the water of like, understanding patriarchy. And true like feminism. And then from there, I think I've just kind of just never stopped and then learned even more and have never stopped talking about it. You know, which, you know. Thank you. I think it's such an important conversation I follow with some creators that talk about this, and it sort of it connects. It makes so much sense because when I started online, I was talking about domestic violence, which I know and I think many people don't. I know, you know, but domestic violence isn't just physical abuse. It's all forms of abuse that happen within home. But people think of it as physical abuse. And I have all these clients that are like, he never yelled, he never hit me, he never whatever. And so it gets really confusing. And what do you think people are missing to even realize that some of this is abuse? Like we talk about weaponized incompetence. How do people not know? Do you think that that's abuse? What are men saying or getting? I think it's been so I think it's been so normalized. I think it was normalized, when we were young girls. I know for me, it was like when I was growing up, my mom was always said, like, men are idiots. Like, they're just dumb. Like, you have to either do it yourself or you have to just keep saying it and saying it and saying it. But don't expect a change. Like, don't expect anything to change. Don't expect you know them to be better or do better. And I was like, oh, what? Like that doesn't make any sense to me. But I think it's just so normalized and it's so, deeply ingrained and entrenched in our communities and in our families. If you think about, like, all the ways that we are conditioned, it starts like in our own homes, and then it's seen on TV and we're seeing this, you know, sitcom wife, husband dynamic where he actually hates her. And he is actually really forthcoming about it, but it's played on like a laugh track of like, ha ha ha, look how much he hates his wife. And people are like, oh, I mean, you look at like, everybody loves Ray and King of Queens and. Married with children. Yeah. Children. Like, I could keep going and you're like. And you start looking back and you're like, whoa, that's super messed up. And I think that's where it starts is in our own families, with our own parents or our own aunts and uncles and grandparents and the normalization of it. And then also how the women in our lives talked about it and how that was just the expectation. And we just need to accept that because there isn't any other way to live, because these are men, and men are all just. What can you expect. Oversize children walking around or, you know, somewhat evolved Neanderthals, whatever you want to call it. But you can't literally expect much from them at all. Yeah. Which is so interesting too, because I tell you, like when I was a little girl, I was told basically the same thing, right, men, what are you going to do? It's just how they are. Boys will be boys. Men want this. Men do this. There was never a discussion of sort of like. And so don't pick one like that or don't accept that. No. Do better. It was sort of like you have no choice. Like I know specifically my mother would be like sort of a silly example, but women can relate picking up a man's socks off the floor, right? Like, why can't he put them in the laundry basket? And it's like, that's men. And so yes, she was talking about socks, but I swear, like I made it much more broad. It was like, that's what you expect from men. Don't expect better. And of course, it led me to tolerate really terrible behavior. And I watch women watch your content and other people's content, and I see them in the comment sections, something interesting. And I'm you must see this, that sort of benefit of the doubt. Like, maybe he doesn't mean it. Maybe he just doesn't get it. Abbi, you're being hard on him. Do you see that a lot? All the time. Like all the time. I see it especially like when, I call it out myself, whether I'm, like, green screening a video, to use as, like, subject matter. But it's always, always, always giving men the benefit of the doubt that we would never extend to a woman in the same position having the exact same thing. So yeah, it's it's infuriating. Or we see it when we see women come online and they share about their situations or something terrible that their husband did, and women in the comments are inevitably like, hey, that's super messed up. Like, that's borderline abusive. Like, that's un like that should not be tolerated. Inevitably the next video is okay, you guys, you blew it out of proportion. You don't know my husband. He's actually a great guy. No, no, it's just our sense of humor. Yeah, like just that kind of couple. You wouldn't understand. No, girly. No, it's not this. We don't utilize this. Yeah, that's it's that's the part it's like. No, no, no, I understand I hate people say you don't understand. No I do, I don't. Agree. I really do. I've been through it. I quite you know I'm, I'm well versed in this topic but it's, it's interesting that they get the benefit of the doubt. And there's a lot of this humor, the nagging wife trope, the, you know, boys will be boys trope, the men hate their wives trope, all of that. There was this one video that I remember, actually, I don't do a lot of stitch a video and then make it a subject matter. I'm for no reason, I just don't. There was this one that I did, and it was a man that his wife was napping on the couch, and he put a pillow over her face, but it wasn't actually her feet. So she woke up and was like, hey, what are you doing? And it was like, no, is just a joke. It's so funny analyzing your wife. You laugh, right? That's the joke. Why are you laughing now? I don't ever think it's funny to joke about divorcing your spouse or harming your spouse. Or I see men lots of times joke about, like, drugging their wives and to getting her to bed, and then they're like, oh, why can't you just take a joke? And I'm like, that's not a joke. You guys like, that's super messed up. That's dangerous, I. Wonder, but you don't have to know. And then, of course, you know, you know the comment, right? You must be fun at parties. It's like, listen. I'm not fun at parties because. At all I'm not. If that's what fun is, I don't want to go to that party where people drug their wives, and I'm gonna live their lives and do awful things. And you can't make the the reverse the case, right? Oh, but if a woman were to joke, in reality, women are doing this, so the joke is lost. When. The real life is that women are being hurt and unlived and frankly, not given the benefit of the doubt, even if we take it away from the extremes of just. Women are expected to be good at everything, right? If you don't know how to change the oil, that's a problem. But if he doesn't know how to cook, he's a man. Makes some sense. Such as life. Insert laughs. Why can you. Expect anything else. Now? Now I see a lot of. And I experienced this like he asked for this life and then refused to participate in it. And I know you've made content around that too. It's sort of like the bait and switch, right? He seemed great. But then how do you see men change in marriage for the worse? I think the biggest change comes, after you have children. Because it's one thing like you don't seem to notice, like when you get married or you start cohabitating with somebody. How much natural inclination you have from your conditioning to start taking on those traditional roles? Start cooking, start meal prepping, start grocery shopping, start laundry. Like always. Be on top of those things. Like how much you start doing that. And before you have kids, it might seem sustainable. It might not seem as difficult or as hard, or something that you find being, like, really resentful. Like, find more times, often than not women without children in these relationships, are more irritated or resentful about, like how much more emotional labor they're putting in and relational labor, planning date nights, you know, kind of still keeping, like, the dating phases alive. but then you don't have any idea how unsustainable all of that becomes when you now have another human being that is solely reliant on you to exist and live and thrive and grow in this world. And now you're not only continuing to do the things that you did before you had a child, but now you're continuing to do everything for this child while you're still expected from your partner to be, you know, sexually available and intimate and like nothing has ever changed because for them, things largely haven't, because you're still operating under those traditional gender roles where, oh, he's going to go to work and he's going to come home and he might, you know, he might give the baby a bottle and like, you know, the same things that your father did type of thing, which was less than nothing. And that still being like the expectation. But now suddenly your role has grown ten times more and you're like, wait a second. This isn't feasible. This isn't sustainable. I'm losing myself. I'm drowning. I'm exhausted. I'm resentful. I think that is where the biggest thing happens, because it's the most, like, visible thing, and the most kind of, like, tangible thing that women are, are experiencing. Yeah. I think that makes so much sense. I think, like, men really expect things to stay the same. And and yet they're signing up for changes in everything from I want to get married to now we have a child, now we have another child. Now Timmy needs soccer lessons. It's like, so you can't actually golf all day. I want to say Todd because I know that's... But like, you can't just do this all day. You can't check out. You need to participate. You know, life that you asked for, Do you think it's entitlement? What do you think is like the cause of the,“What do you need me to do?” I think it's privilege. I think it's conditioning. I think, men are taught a lot to believe that they want a wife and kids. Not that they want to be a husband and a father. They don't truly understand what a partnership is. Having a wife and kids is not the same as being a husband and a father. They're talking about completely different things and their expectations are completely different. Like a husband is there for his wife. He is a partner to his wife. He is participative in the home with his wife. A father is participating alongside his wife and the mother of his children and raising them. And he wants to be involved and he knows what's going on. And that's a really big difference. I don't think men are conditioned and brought up to understand what it actually means to be a husband and a father in the same way that women are to be a wife and a mother. I really I so passionately agree with that concept. And I remember I want to say it was Brent McClearie who said, men don't really understand what it is to grow up. When you hit 18, you're a man and then you get married. But you're not just a married man, you are a husband. You have children, you become a father. And can you be an adult man and be a husband and a father and have no clue what those things actually mean? I'm going to say clearly, yeah, there's a lot of them. I have no idea. And they would be really offended by that. Right? We're just probably a couple of misandrists having this really mean conversation about men. But like, please tell me what you know, dude. Right. Because I don't think that they do really understand that the contribution and I your distinction in the word helping, it's so true because we're conditioned as women to get his help. And it's like that implies it's my job and that you're helping me and I have before I was I think I was always a feminist before before I would use that phrase to describe myself. I was like, participate, man. Participate. Like, I would be so angry. You wanted this. Why are you not involved? Just tell me what you need. I'll help you. But I tell you that's not true. Because I would tell him what I needed and he still wouldn't do it. So, like, that's not even the actual reality. But I always felt like he's struggling. He doesn't get it. He doesn't realize how much there is to do. You know, his mom did everything. So I guess this is just expected. But I don't want this. I'm not happy. Do you think there's a difference between the genuine struggle? They don't get it or the weaponized incompetence? Guys, what? Is there a difference in your mind? Tough question. I think that there is I personally think that there is I think that there like, I'm not saying that men aren't conditioned differently, that they didn't have a completely different experience, but they also had an incredibly privileged one that cannot be overlooked in all of this. I didn't grow up knowing how to raise a child, how to have a baby. Okay, but from the moment I was pregnant, it was me. I was making the appointment. I was finding the doctor. I was staying on top of it. I was getting my blood drawn. I was taking the prenatal. What did my husband do? He went with me. Like to the like that was, you know, that was it like, how many men are reading what to expect after, you know, whatever. Like how many men are watching the content, how many men are consuming the podcasts on this and how it's going to change their life and the conversations they need to be having with their wife over the the mental labor and the domestic labor. How it should all shake out. They're not. And that is both conditioning and choice. Because in the year of our Lord 2025, you have the entire world at your fingertips. Do not come to me and say you did not know that is privilege, and that is an excuse that I will not tolerate from you. I didn't know what to do either. I didn't know that when I went into labor at 20, like preterm labor at 26 weeks, what the hell I was going to have to do. But here we are learning together. But your expectations for me are vastly different than the expectations of a man in the same situation. And that's the problem. That's the problem. You have to know everything. And he doesn't. It's like, well, if you need to read a book, I mean, I'm sure Abby will read it and just tell me, right, what do I need to do? And it's like, yes, read the book yourself. In fact, find the book, read the book and tell me to read the book. You know, like, do some of the legwork. I guess that maybe I'm oversimplifying, but there's like little categories of men, the ones that are really using weaponized incompetence, which is a whole deep topic and what that is and the type of people that use it. And I think there is a category of man who doesn't quite know, like they are doing it from a place of privilege in the sense that it is on purpose, like they do expect you to do the work, not them, and they are doing it on purpose, but they don't quite catch that. It's horrible and awful to do that to someone. And if you bring it to their attention and you talk to them about it, they're willing to change. I think that exists. But certainly in my content, in my my page, my topics, that's not the man we're talking about. The man who will debate women online about who picks up socks or underwear left on the bathroom floor. And I swear to you, I will never forget this one troll who came at me. And I'm not kidding you. I took the time because I'm petty as hell to count up his comments, and I lost count over 500. It was over about a week and a half every day. Women were battling him in the comments and he left well over 500 comments on two videos. And fundamentally, his point was, if you care so much about the underwear, pick it up yourself. But I'm like, but why do you want to live like a slob? And if that's your choice and she doesn't, then why not decide? Together we shouldn't be together anymore. Why make her feel bad? Why do you want her to pick up your underwear? It's not. You don't care that they're on the floor. I disagree that man cares. He just wants you to. Yeah, and That's the thing that, like, I. I think the biggest shock I think it's two things. One, women are naturally 11 years more emotionally intelligent than men. We just are. they don't reach emotional maturity until they're 43. And even then they're far behind women. So, there's that. And men have no empathy because they've never had to they've never had to empathize with another person's lived experience or experiences. So they're not wondering like, for me, like, and this is the funny thing is that so many men tend to think that I am this OCD control freak, incredibly difficult to please woman. And I am literally the messiest person I don't like. My husband has way more input over the way things get done, and what a standard looks like and how often the home is cleaned than I do. But I care and I choose to care because those are things that are important to him. And I understand, like when you sit down and you ask somebody like, hey, I noticed that like, you can't go to bed until the like, the kitchen's cleaned like, and I'm exhausted at the end of night and I don't want to clean the kitchen. But I also want to understand why you feel that you have to do that. Men don't do that. Women do that. Like, I want to get to the root. I want to understand here. And if you ask and they're like, okay. Well, so every night, like my mom was there because if not, my dad was coming in and he was throwing shit around and he was, you know, causing a problem. And so I always saw her cleaning the kitchen because that's what I'm trying to avoid. You're like, oh, that makes a lot more sense. Now. I can better empathize with that. But men don't dig that far because they don't care to. They've never had to. That's the privilege that they have. The lack of care is painful to me. It's it's painful to me. It is. It is when I'm talking about this guy, this troll that was going on about leaving your underwear on the floor, a secondary part of that debate that he was having with someone else was about towels. And I don't know why, but like I see it in your comment section, do people talk about boys as a way to fold towels? But it feeds into the she's just a perfectionist. You can't do anything the right way garbage. But I remember my current partner when he first moved in and I hate laundry. My God, do I hate laundry. And he was like, listen, I don't hate laundry, so I'm going to take over all the laundry. I was like, what? Oh my God, not to give him balloons for the bare minimum. But I was really impressed. But more so he said, how do you fold towels? And I want to be clear, he didn't ask me how to fold a towel. He said, how do you fold towels? Because he wanted to know if I had a way and he folds the towels my way, which is not weird or any. It's not like some I'm not asking him to fold it into a swan, right? It's just that they get displayed in the bathroom, not tossed into a linen closet. So it matters to me a little bit how they're folded. But I never said that to him. He proactively asked, and I was like, yeah, why did he ask? Because he respects my view. He cares if I'm happy. It's that simple. So why does it matter if the underwear are picked up off the floor? You love your wife, right? You keep saying that. Show me. Yeah. Prove it. It's so simple. I just don't get it. But boys will be boys. Boys don't have to care. Men just go make the money. Even the assumption that men go out and make money and therefore they deserve peace when they get home. It's like, you know, women work two right? It's a good. Thing. And I came to this realization like, not that long ago, because I would constantly have this conversation. I would pull up the data points. I would show that 75% of women with kids under the age of 18in the home are working. Yes, are working. And I realized that that doesn't matter, because when you have men that don't value women's work in any capacity, they will never see it as work or as important work as them. And that's why they don't care. That's why they say things like that. They know women work. They're well aware that when men work, they don't value women's work of any kind. They don't value fruits financially. They don't value it if it contributes like to the infrastructure, they don't value it. If it contributes to their own homes, they don't value women and they don't value women's work. And that's why they will always pull that card. You gave me such a like an epiphany moment, realizing that it's because I do the same thing and I'm actually going to stop because you're completely right. It's not that they when you say, but most women work. I always think, oh, they're talking about stay at home moms, which is offensive because to be fair, I was never I was never a stay at home mom because that's hard. I didn't even want to. It seemed too hard for me. Maybe in my situation it was, but it didn't feel like a luxury for me. But yeah, it's because they don't value it even when they're earning money, which my own abuser used to say to me, but you work in an office. He felt he had arguably a more blue collar job. I don't want to say what it was, but he had arguably a more blue collar job, so I think he was like, I do physical work. You sit at a desk typing and I'm like, I don't think you understand my job. that's not true, and also I still work with like, what? What does this, this, battle between who works more physically hard. The goalpost will always move because you could say. Because they will inevitably say, well, men do more. The most dangerous jobs. And you can say, well, one of the most dangerous things to be is a pregnant woman in a relationship with a man. Well, you shouldn't have been in a relationship with a man and gotten pregnant by a man that was violent. Like the goalpost will forever move. You can go on and on and on, but you will always find yourself in a vicious cycle of men being unaccountable for their own shit behaviors. So it's it's literally pointless to keep going because there will always be something else when at the crux of it, they just don't value women, plain and simple. So how can a woman tell that her husband doesn't value her? What do you think? Like what have you kind of seen what you're like? Oh, it's these things. I think this might be, like, from my own personal, like, previous experience, but I feel like the one thing that I'm always hearing from women is if there is not, like, emotional safety, if there is not safety, when they say no, I'm not in the mood, I don't want to have sex with you. And their partner pressures them or guilts them or coerces them, or doesn't just say, okay, that's fine, let's move on. They don't throw a temper tantrum. Their mood doesn't change. They don't weaponize anything against them. That is probably, for me, one of the biggest indicators, that men don't value women and they only see them as 1 or 2 things. Unfortunately. They're to serve for sure. For sure. We tell ourselves, and like, I see this every day, like, maybe he doesn't. It's not that he doesn't know. Right. Like or women who are so convinced he just doesn't get it. He doesn't understand. I have a pretty solid belief, especially specifically about abusive men. They do get it. And I think part of this is in how many times can I get Abby to explain the same thing to me? And it's almost a joke to them in their mind of like, I get it, I don't care. She thinks that I don't get it because that keeps you explaining the same thing. It's like, why can't you just fold the towels the way that I'm asking? But it's because you're going to fold the towels forever. He's not because he can just pretend to be confused or forget or be too busy or, you know, when we really sort of leaned into the weaponized incompetence of just like, well, I didn't know that when you said do the dishes, you meant like run the dishwasher. I thought you meant load the dishwasher. Why would I want it loaded and not run? There's no logic. You can't be the leader of the world and run all the corporations and be the head of my household. If you can't figure out that a button needs to be pushed, I can't. And I can't respect you. And then I don't want to sleep with you. It just gets worse. It really does, unfortunately. And it's a really interesting thing. I think that at that point it is it's very intentional, but also they've never had a consequence because as women we don't have boundaries most of the time. Many of us don't even know how to set boundaries, how to hold boundaries, how to be prepared when they push back on those boundaries. So most of these guys have never had any consequences when she has gone sideways or they have messed up, which they inevitably will do. So I always like in the to like my kids like if I am giving them reminder after reminder of like, okay, I'm going to start taking away your iPad time, I'm gonna start taking away your iPad time. And they keep doing and they keep doing it. And I never take their iPad time away. Why would they believe me? Why would they stop doing what they're doing or want to alter their behavior to what I'm trying to get them to do? If there's never been a consequence, like there's no reason they're going to keep doing the same shit that they've always done because they know it doesn't matter. You're not going to leave them. You're not going to do you're not going to do anything about it. And that really, really, really puts women, in a terrible position. Like we set women up from a really early age to get, for lack of a better word, fucked over by men for the entirety of our lives because we failed to arm them with the understanding of boundaries and holding them, and consequences for when boundaries are crossed. See, boundaries I find interesting because people will always be like, well, leave your husband, leave your husband. Okay. Hold on. And I'm not. I'm not saying don't leave. I'm in fact, I'm probably saying leave. However it borders just leave. Right? He didn't. You're going to leave your husband because he didn't load the dishwasher. And it's like, you know the article. Everyone knows this article. Even though it's old, right? she divorced me because I left dishes by the sink. That man figured out after had nothing to do with the dishes by the sink, and everything to do with feelings and respect and whatever. Most men, I don't think, connect to that. And the ones that do and still do it don't care. But it's like, what's the agent of change here? He has to want to care. And one thing I've learned recently is that why would he give something up unless there's a consequence? Which to your point, but why would he benefits from not understanding? He benefits from you being like, I'll just do it. Never mind. I'm not even going to bother asking. I've asked him three times to take the garbage out. Fine, I took it out. That will never end the consequence is in one way leave your husband. But if we put that aside because it's not always possible for people, what are other consequences? What do you see? Work for people or think? What? So this is the other side of that. And it's kind of like you said. Is it like when I fell in love with fair Play, it was because I didn't fully understand fair play. And I realize the more I talk to women, the more fair play wasn't going to matter. It wasn't going to be the silver bullet to save their marriage, because the first problem in their marriage was their husband not giving a shit. You cannot make someone care to you cannot make someone want to do better and show up better and be a partner and see your struggle and want to participate with you. To want to take away that struggle. And that is the first thing. If you don't have a husband who gives a shit, the entire point is moot. Nothing is going to change. And at that point, and I realized this like a year and a half ago, and I was like, because it was always on the woman, just communicate better, just find a better time to talk to him. Just schedule a time. Just just just just just. And I asked and my favorite play facilitator training, I was like, what do we do in these instances for these women? They're like, I'm tired. I cannot get this man on board, though. And their response was basically just like, well, you can either keep trying to get his buy in and keep implementing the system or keep living in the way things were. And I was like, either way, they're living in the way things were. It's still incredible undertaking that women have to own implement. And I was like, you know what? I'm so tired of everybody telling women that it's on them to fix a situation with a person that doesn't think they need fixing, that doesn't care. And it was in that moment that I was like, enough, like, there's not like I'm tired of like trying to help women, like explain the mental labor to their husbands who don't care. And I was like, you know what? I would rather provide resources and information to women who cannot leave because there are so many of them. Telling women to just leave is such a privileged take, to women that cannot leave, but want to still find ways to take control of aspects of their life and not be so emotionally drained in their marriages. And so that's what I did. That's brilliant. Because truthfully, I agree with you. I always felt like, and I'm no expert and Fair Play but I was always like, is that for people who have a man who, like, cares that I don't have that I always felt like. I should be like. It's not going to work for me. it won't work for most people because unfortunately like I talked to a lot of therapists and they're like I quit taking couples because women are so far ahead in maturity and development and growth that working with them together is not making any progress. Men have to do solo therapy alone for so much longer to even get to begin to where their wives are, and that's where most people are. Unfortunately, that is where most people are. And so yeah, you you get to like, do you want to stay or can you stay and tolerate this man as he is because he will not change or you like? Enough is enough. I can get everything together eventually leave. We're like, okay, this is my situation. I can still find ways to live for myself. I can still find enjoyment and self-care and well-being and potentially leave later on down the road. Yeah, I'm all about the long term strategy. Sometimes, and I know, I guess I deal with much more, direct abuse that women can't leave sometimes, but even abuse like this, which I don't mean to sort of, you know, just emotional abuse because frankly, I mean, studies show that it's the same, if not worse, but this sort of slow death by a thousand paper cuts of just a million times how this man will prove to you that he doesn't care about what you think. And then it's not about the towels, and it's not about socks on the floor. It's just about him being able to do his weekend hobbies of like eight hours of golfing and and if you want to go to, brunch with the girls for two hours, he's babysitting. I just I know it might take a long term strategy. My consequence is leave, but I truly don't mean just leave. I mean, like, build a plan and really think about. Are you happy? Are you tolerating this amount of misery to just stay because you think, well, my kids should stay with their family and we need an intact family? Like, what? Are you really going to sacrifice your happiness and frankly, your sense of identity and who you are to pick up this guy's socks for the rest of your life? Sounds awful to me. No, thanks. It does. It sounds horrible. But I I've talked to so many women over so many years, and the majority of them are not are not at that point. Right. The second where they can leave or they fear for their kids safety in their absence with their father. I mean, we see it like we see what happens. Like, gone are the days where the court favors the children being more in the mother's custody than equal time. The court goes for equal time, and that's terrifying. I mean, we saw like, what happened, like, I don't know about you, but like, here there was a man who was, like, mentally unwell, and the courts would not let the mother. She tried in every different way and like, as nice as she could, like, my girls are not safe here. He is not on. Well, I love him. I want him to see his children. I want him to get better. But right now he's a veteran and he does not have the tools that he needs. He ended up killing him like the girls on a weekend that they had. And that happens, and that happens, and that happens. And there's so many instances of women being terrified of what happens when their kids are in custody of their fathers, who I mean, let's be honest, like, don't know how to care for them under the same roof. Like what? What do you think is going to happen when you're gone? Like, it's a terrifying thing, or a lot of women have kids with disabilities, or they rely on his health insurance like it's why I preach. So the only that women never lose their financial incomes. That is your freedom and that is your autonomy and that is your way out should you need it. it's really difficult. So that's why I was like, you know what women need something for? Like the in between. Because nobody was talking to these women. Nobody was providing these women resources like, oh, we'll just go to a shelter. That's not where they're at right now. That's not what they need right now. And like, and I get that shelters are great. I love shelters are so helpful in so many different instances. But there are short term fix. They're not a long term plan. And women in these situations need a long term plan of preparing and dealing with what's happening in their lives now, for whether they can get divorced in the next 7 to 10 years or not. Who knows? But there needs to be another option for women who cannot leave, but need to be healthy for themselves and their children. Yeah, and not fix their marriage some more. Right? Because again, who's doing all the let's fix my marriage is women, right? We're the ones doing all this emotional labor of how can I fix it? How can I make him better? How can I convince him that it's not about stocks, it's about. And it's like, how can you just radically accept that this is who you are with right now, whether that's forever or temporary, and set some boundaries where you just don't do certain things, or I hate to charts and things like that. And yet sometimes I don't know what women have to try to do to sort of stay sane in the relationship. I know I spend a lot of time talking about leaving, but I also so recognize that there is a privilege in it. I made a YouTube video recently on just how privileged it even is to say, well, why don't you just leave? Like as if shelters are available everywhere. Some shelters don't take kids, some don't take pets. You can only stay for a certain amount of time. And honestly, like you go stay at a shelter. Do you know how hard that is to face that choice? Like, what? What flippant advice is that to begin with? Exactly. Brutal. And like how safe is that. But yeah, it's very much it's it's always and not just like, what can you do to get your husband to like, fix him, to make him better to him? A lot of it is what can I fix on myself if I can just fix myself, if I can just work harder on myself, if I can just learn more about myself to better understand what's happening and what's creating this dynamic of my marriage, maybe it'll make things better. Like women make up like 64% of the self-help market. Like we are constantly working on ourselves because we think that we're the problem. We think that if we can just fix ourselves, we can fix the situation, we can fix our marriage, we can. It will make our husband suddenly see us and care about us and want us to be that like, want to be better for us and want this marriage to work. And that's simply not the case. Yeah. Which is, I think, like, so sad to have to sort of accept. But I think what women can try to do is figure out if you have the I don't care guy or the I'm willing to learn guy, you can tell them, in my view, the I'm willing to learn guy is actually going to learn, not just say give me a list, but a guy who's going to understand that I am not making you a list. I would rather be dead than make a list for a man. I have to tell you, I honestly, I'm that passionate about it. I will never make a list for another man for the rest of my life. Figured out. And my my current partner is not even my children's biological dad. He is on it. You ask in their shoe sizes right now. He'll tell you their teachers names, what report card they got. Most recently. He is fully checked in and aware and he is a step parent not to give him presents for the basics, but I appreciate it. There's such a. Difference. Like I remember, I remember I get asked all the time, like Abby, like, how did you know that your husband was going to be a good partner? And first of all, like, I'm very transparent. I was 22 when I met my husband, okay? I was a dumb I don't know, I didn't know then I was like, hey, this guy's really hot. We have a great relationship. Let's get married. Like, yeah, I love the man. Like, I knew the moment. I knew the moment I met him, I was going to marry him, but I was 22, like I just did not. You just don't know. At that age. But now I can look back and I can go, okay, here was a very first time, like I came to him and I was like, hey, this is a problem. I never see you. Our schedules are a mess. Like, I feel like you give a lot more time to your friends, and we never have any time to ourselves. And he was like, you know what? He was like? You're right. He was like, I didn't realize I was so used to like having Monday night with my friends. Even though, like, Sunday and Monday were his days off, like I just had was used to that. And I didn't even think that, like how this might be affecting your making you feel. So what if I just went on, like once a month and I was like, that's perfect, that's great. It's that it's hearing your partner come to you and say, here's something that's bothering me, that's hurting me, that's making me feel this way. And instead of going, that's fucking stupid. Like, you're being ridiculous. Why are you trying to make me not see my friends go, oh, wow, I didn't realize that. That's how this could be making you feel. It's those moments, the men who can hear you and process and want to work through the problem with you versus become the problem. That's a difference. That's it. Yeah. So look out for that. Like, I really I feel like the, the part of that that is a conversation that there's a willingness and acceptance and then followed by action. Like that's where you really are going to see the difference. Otherwise you've got that other guy who doesn't care and who's going to make all these promises, and you're going to live the rest of your life picking up the socks and doing all the dishes and doing everything with someone who doesn't care enough to participate. I think that's so powerful. I really want everybody to check out your content. So I'm going to link everything in the description in the caption so people can reach you and interact with your content. Because guys, you are going to learn so much from her. Please follow her. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate the conversation. Amazing. Thank you Lisa.