The Best Selling Relationship Book That Taught Him To Abuse Me | Episode 012

The Five Love Languages seems like such a helpful relationship tool - until it's weaponized by an abusive partner. I brought this popular book into my own abusive relationship hoping it would help us communicate better, only to watch it become a tool for coercion and manipulation against me. This week, I sit down with sexual coercion expert Nat LaJune to unpack the deeply problematic nature of Gary Chapman's bestselling book. We explore how "physical touch" as a love language is almost always weaponized by abusive men, the patriarchal origins of the book itself, and why the entire framework can enable manipulation in relationships. Nat shares insights from her years of content creation on marital coercion, including the common tactics abusers use and why simply saying "just say no" isn't realistic for women in coercive relationships. We discuss the transactional nature that develops when love languages are weaponized, how any of the five categories can become coercive tools, and the importance of focusing on what you give rather than what you receive. Our conversation also touches on the psychology behind men who feel entitled to sex, the role Christianity plays in enabling sexual coercion, and signs that your relationship may involve coercion you haven't recognized yet.

Resources Mentioned:

"27 Love Languages" piece by Nat LaJune

Connect with Nat LaJune:

Find Nat on social media: @alwaysmending and @natlajune 

https://www.alwaysmending.com/ 

Transcript

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A love language might be having, sharing a cup of coffee together So I came up with 27 of them. And I say it's always growing. I'm always adding to it because I'm just finding all those little moments that we're connecting. And it's not about the thing, I once introduced a book into my abusive relationship, and I hoped so much that this book would help. The five love languages. It seemed so amazing. It was recommended to me by a friend, and then that book was used as a weapon against me. So I want to talk about that book, and I have invited Nat LaJune, who is an expert on sexual coercion and marital coercion, to come into this conversation because you've got some really profound things to say on this. I've watched really so much of your content, and I absolutely love it. But tell us a little bit about you and your content. Okay. Well, when I first got to TikTok in 2020, I had not put myself on the internet much at all. I had, you know, those glossy Instagram pictures that where you're trying to hide what's really going on? But let's see how. So, I didn't think anybody would see it. So I just thought, I'll just record a couple videos on the floor of my bedroom really quietly. And I started talking about what was going on in my home. And over the next few weeks, one of my videos went viral, and somebody's in the comments over the next few weeks said, that sounds like sexual coercion. That's not okay. And then that sparked something. And I said, that is a thing. I've heard of that. And I started to go down rabbit hole researching that. And I because I initially thought it wasn't anything to do with marriage. Right. I thought that was just, you know, college kids dating that I'm way beyond that. Now that I'm married, it's a thing you kind of have to do I started to talk about. Wait a minute. This isn't right. What's happening to all these women? What happened to me for 20 years? Right? So I started to talk about what sexual coercion looks like and how it's different in marriage. And that became accidentally a platform based on marital coercion, which I kind of made up on the fly in a video. And that made a hashtag and a website that became a thing. So now we talk about that almost every day, new women discovering it for the first time. Yeah, it's devastating because I remember and I probably said this to you before. I was like, okay, he was abusive financially. He was abusive emotionally. Physically. You know, I've been through it all, but I've never experienced sexual abuse. And it was a video of yours and I don't really remember which specific video, but I remember holding my phone like, wait, what? You shocked me. And I was already like, I was already on TikTok. I already was making my own content. I was like, you? How didn't I see this? Yeah. How didn't I know? And then I just, like, drank all of your content obsessively. But it's also really triggering for me because I kind have realized that that type of abuse that I experienced in my own abusive relationship was worse than I thought. So it was like unpacking and through watching your content. So thank you. And yeah, oh my God. When you think you're over all of it and you're teaching and you're helping and then it creeps up this new thing. Yeah. And and for me it was kind of the opposite because I kept making excuses for it because there was nothing else. Right. You can have all the other abuse. So I just thought, no, but he's such a good guy. This can't be abuse. Yeah. So yeah, different sides of it. It's so it's bizarre. I mean, I also thought it wasn't abuse, despite it being physical, despite being all kinds of things. But when you don't know, you don't know. And education is key. And this book I brought into my own relationship because, you know, was what I think what brings a lot of people into this book, the five Love Languages, is this thought of like, we're not communicating well. I don't feel loved. Why? And so you start to dig into it and then you realize, oh my God, this makes so much sense. My love language is words of affirmation and acts of service. And oh, I see his his physical touch or his and my abuser. It's always quality time in physical touch. But physical touch was the primary. And I remember him actually saying to me, oh, so you because I scored on all of them? Yeah. Words of affirmation. Acts of service were the two highest, but I scored pretty high on them all. Gifts was the lowest. And then he was like, so you need all this. You need so much to feel loved. And I was like, no, you're supposed that. The book says you're supposed to see it as lucky you. I feel loved in so many different ways that you don't actually have to do one specific thing. It's supposed to make you feel. Free. To love me in so many different ways. But it was like, oh, so you just need me to, like, fill your head up with compliments. You're insecure. You need validation because I like doing that mission. I'm like, is it weird that you want your partner to say, you look nice today? Or I just couldn't understand. Like, I confused me until TikTok and until TikTok. And I remember it was you talking about that book, and I was like, oh my God, this book is the worst. It's the worst book in the world. So the five love languages, what is your take on where it came from? Like, I know Gary Chapman Southern Baptist, but like, what do what do you assume is his motivation as. Well as with most old or especially older but now new generation to, white male pastors, are driven by control, sex and the feeling of being a hero in their lives and in their wife and children's lives, but being leaders and protectors and providers and all of that. I think he wanted to write a book, and he was counseling people at the time. This is everybody says, oh, he was counselor. He got all this from all these people that counseled. But church pastors as counselors are not qualified. They don't have the education or training. They are not psychologists. And so he was doing basically what I do, just talking to people and listening to them and making up shit based on that, which is fine if it really is working for people and I, I don't know, I wonder at times if he didn't write that whole thing, especially physical touch, because he wasn't getting some in his own marriage. Yeah. How can I convince my wife? Yeah. And convincing is not consenting. Right? I mean, I swear I could do a whole episode on the difference between persuasion and coercion, but, yeah, that aside, I also think that he started this to sort of get something. And it's it's the framework of it. It seems so genius. And I remember this comment once of a woman saying on TikTok, you know, it's not that the book is bad. The book is really helpful for a lot of people. It's actually that it's in the hands of abusers sometimes who are misusing it. And I remember feeling like now I think it's doing exactly what it was meant to do. I think that this book was written by a man who is very interested, for obvious reasons, and upholding the patriarchy and finding ways to sort of make coercion normal. Call it normal, and it it shouldn't be what's Christian. But so often I speak to women who are Christian and who are saying they're being coerced specifically using this book, specifically being told that their partner's love language is physical touch. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. How convenient. And when you as a narcissistic abuse, coach. Right. You deal with all the narcissism and you can probably see it when you start to talk to Christians. Christianity as a concept is narcissistic. Christianity as a religion treats their own people the way a narcissist treats the victim, and it conditions them to become little narcissists. Treating everybody the same way. Yeah, it's devastating actually, I, I really it bothers me so much when I'm speaking to women that are like. But he says it's my duty. And now to unsee your book. And if you guys don't have it, I'm going to link it in the caption so people can get it. But man, like all the phrases that you put in like, we're just roommates, it's your duty. But that's how I feel loved. And that's really going back to the book, like, but that's how I feel loved. I don't feel loved in any other way. Now. He was a content creator. You get all the comments from the men. Yeah. Let's talk about your comment sections as it relates to this for a moment. Tell me tell you what that's been like. I told the man recently that there is nothing left that I haven't heard. So I said, go have at it. Tell me everything in the book that you can imagine to get at me. And I've heard it already from 100 other men. So, the top ones really are the. It's I say the second one is the physical touch is the love language number one. It's just that it's his need to do it right, that men men need sex. Number two is love. Languages. Number three would be, it's part of a healthy relationship. That's it. That's a gaslighting one, because it takes a healthy relationship for two people to want to have sex in the first place, right? Right. So they're doing the steps backwards. Yeah. So that and then they'll. And then probably in the top five is chicken or the egg. Does she not want sex because I'm treating her badly. Or am I treating her badly because she's not having sex with me right now? That was I think it's valid. Yeah. That but so in that I discovered something and again through you like you you really I know, you know because I tell you all the time, it's like, my God, you've changed things so much for me. But the transaction in that I have to earn his kindness. Through. Giving him my body. And it's like, I don't know why that men can't see it that way. And then they'll say, oh, you're using do the dishes as a transaction. And I'm like, but you told me that I needed to earn your kindness, so why don't you need to earn? And nobody wants it to be transactional. That's gross. But it becomes transactional when you say you be nice to me and then I'll sleep with you. I got to say it's actually perpetuated by society as a whole. And I came across a video recently where I had a bunch of women coming at me and attacking me because and this woman I don't believe was being coerced, but she made a video. This hit the For You page was viral, and she was saying, something about a wake up in the morning and give my husband head, and then he'll do all the chores today. But the way she said, it was just sort of like, this is what she does, but not because she doesn't want to. She does want to. But it was a joke. It was a funny. Ha ha. I can get my husband to be my dancing monkey all day, because I do this one little thing for him in the morning. And hey ladies, do this for your husband. And you can have that trick pony too, right? But women in the comments were pushing back victims saying, hey, wait a minute, you can't be telling women this because they have to still want to do it, and you can't make it transactional because you're feeding into those men saying, hey, give me some, and then I'll do this stuff. And then they're withholding chores and things to get sex. And, all these women came after me for calling that out myself to say, hey, this is probably not okay to say to women. It's not just I've. I've settled down. I used to say it's just bad what they're saying. But in a consensual situation, it's still toxic and uncomfortable for me. And I would never do it. But that's their marriage. If that's how they are, that's fine. I just don't think you should be putting that out there. It's the standard or the norm, right? Yeah, but it is. It is very normal for women to do that. I like I don't know, yuck I, I'm speechless like ill because I don't like the idea of, listen, I have a trick. All you need to do is do this one act and then it'll make him perform. Because first of all, in my experience, that is a frigging lie. That absolutely won't work. So imagine trying that. Like, okay, it worked for her. High five. It didn't work for me. I wouldn't if we even when I did write that one that was the test. It was like, do this and then I'll be nicer to you. And I was like, fine, let me try that. But then your body feels like really disconnected and gross while you're doing it. It's really because women don't want it. You don't actually. Want. It's just doing it because. She does want it. But here's the problem that I have with her in women like this. She does want it. She is consenting and so she can't. We can't argue that's not consent. But what kind of man is saying he's okay with this? If I'm I know good, decent men and I think I haven't talked to them about this specifically, but I would think they would be mortified to know that this was their wife's motivation. Good at it. Yeah. And it's manipulative on her part. It's manipulation. And he's going along with it, going for it for two reasons. Either he's just a superficial prick and he doesn't care about her, or and he just wants to get sex, or he's actually the one being manipulated in this relationship and you need to get him some help. Right? A good point, actually. I never see it from that side because, you know, I'm how I am with men. But if however, we want to label that but I. I it has taken me a lot of healing to get to this. Yeah, I'm on that journey, but I'm not there yet. But I just feel like the, the opportunity to, I mean, and coerce each other and honestly, I mean, I see this in your comment section and any time I am brave enough or crazy enough to make a video on sexual coercion, I get the same thing where it's like women do it too. Yeah, I'm not saying they don't, to be honest with you. I'm really not saying that they don't. I'm saying that they do it far less often. Yeah. Far less so far less often that I don't personally care to even talk about it. And I also think that a lot of men have this weird belief of like, well, that's fine by me. Like what we're talking about. Yeah, these guys will. Show up and get that. Great. Yeah. I just said on threads this morning, there are two reasons that men say women do it too. Number one is just deflection. To get women to stop talking about it. But number two is because it's so damn rare that they just can't believe a woman got one over on a man because they're supposed to be big and strong. Right? We have talk about this because something bad happened to a man. Yeah. That's important. That's a really. We need to talk about this now that it's happening to men. Shocking that it's because it's so rare. so do you. I remember that in the book. At least this is my memory that he didn't used to sort of explicitly say that it was sex as part of physical touch. I can't find any reference to that. I've had another, online creator say that she sort of remembers that, too. And maybe I'm wrong. Yeah, I get comments saying the opposite, that there are people that say, oh no, but Gary Chapman came out and said publicly that it doesn't mean sex, but it doesn't matter because here's the thing. It doesn't matter if it's sex or not. Physical touch is a violation if you don't want it. Good point. Actually you're right. But I will say that the book says. Sex books say sex. It may be that there was a reprint, another version later. Yeah, I think, but regardless if you are poking me in the shoulder against my will and I've asked you to stop, it is a violation. And if that happens repeatedly over and over again throughout the years, it doesn't matter if it's just a smack of my ass, it's not okay. It's violating. And that's how women you see women around every once in a while with really frumpy clothes all the time. They'll never wear anything revealing or sexy. That's the kind of thing that happens when men complain that their wife has let herself go. It's because when she looked nice for him, he violated her. Yes. That's so true. You know it's interesting. I have a client who every time she's like hey can you grab that cup for me on the top shelf. He's like show me your boobs. And if she doesn't he won't help her. And I'm like, see? And then I get that that's not touch but there's no consent. It's a transaction. And it's for his viewing pleasure. It's and it's one step away from other and. It is still sexually violating. It's objectifying. And, there's studies, all kinds of studies done on objectifying. I think there may be one on my website. Yeah. Why why I don't want to say, why do men do this? But like, what do you think really is the driving factor here? Because what I hear and see so often is that while men feel rejected, if you don't sleep with them, men need sex. Oh, no, those are two different things. But the to me, that's what I see the most common. What? Well, what's the issue? There are I see different kinds of men. Two forget to kind of go gently on some of the men. Some of them genuinely have been raised and taught to feel love in this way. have a video pinned on my, TikTok right there where I had a, what I call it channeled message. That's a whole different topic we can get into later, but, it's this message came to me about men growing up as boys having their emotions stifled, and then so they're not allowed to feel really, or express their feelings when they do have them. And so then they get into teenage years and they, they experience sex for the first time. And that opens up this floodgates through oxytocin. They're getting all these emotions chemically and then they can feel something. Now I have feelings and I can feel something. And it's always with a woman, right? So the more they go on through life in this cycle of I can't feel sex makes me feel I'm not allowed to feel sex makes me feel they get in this, conditioning where sex is the only way I can feel now. And I've experienced this firsthand with someone I dated. He could not express feelings outside of the bedroom. And he was very good, kind, nice man, very treated women very well. Would never have been coercive. But we had lots of conversations about this because of my content. And this was kind of how it was for him. He shut off and disconnected from his body when he wasn't having sex, and then it would wake up all of this emotion in him when he was having sex. So for those kinds of men, I, I don't think sometimes I might say they're accidentally coercive, but it's not actually accidental. There is something going on there, but it's not the direct entitlement we see in abusive men. And so that's the majority of coercive men are the incels, the, awful entitled the men who don't even see women as human. So I have to separate those men because there is a small percentage of them that would get help if they were confronted with this. Right. But the other. Really? Yeah. The others would kick and scream and go down fighting, because in those men, it's not that just that they weren't allowed to feel. They were told that it's that's totally normal and it's okay. And anyone who asks you to feel is just a bitch. And then you move on through life and sex. It's so normalized that sex is the way men feel that they just. And women are not human. Women are objects for their desire. Many have told me, why would I get married except to have sex? What's the point? You know, if if I can't get it from her, I'll get it somewhere else. Because she is just a vessel for sex and he could easily replace her with anyone else on Earth. So it's just as an aside. Good luck. Good luck. Yeah, I don't actually think that men can replace their spouse so quickly like that. Like, I really, I, you know, A for effort, but good luck. They do try. I'm sure they do. And some cheat right. Not and cheat. But the ones that do and you see that is sort of like. But if you're not going to sleep with him then you should be fine with him cheating. That's okay, because you're not meeting his love language. Yeah. You're not meeting her love language. And then I know for me it was this debate of like, what comes first? If mine is acts of service and words of affirmation and his is physical touch. Also, as an aside, remember I said also quality time. We don't need to talk about that though, because that's not sex. So even though it was on the list. Turn it in all sexual. I have had men say my love language is quality time in the bedroom. My love language is words of affirmation telling me how hot and sexy I am in the bedroom. I love language is gifts, buying fancy lingerie for yourself, for me to enjoy right? So they can turn it all sexual. But going back to childhood for just a second, I think this is the whole point of the love languages. From my perspective. This is how I see it. Whatever your love language, that's what you didn't get enough of from your parents growing up. If your love language is words of affirmation, you were not given verbal praise as a child. If your love language is physical touch, you were not held and hugged and taken care of physically. You see what I'm going through? Your love language is gifts. Because you were poor. I never got any. I bet there's a lot of truth to that. That actually just sound like I need to. I need to get give that. I think I like that, that makes sense, you know. Yeah. I don't I wish I mean physical touch. Right. It could be like a hug nurturing what you're talking about. Even in a in a marriage, in a relationship you can touch people like a back rub or holding hands or kissing or caressing or something that doesn't necessarily lead to sex. Yeah. But in my experience with my clients and with my own life, it always has to lead to sex. It's it isn't physical touch isn't really like, I don't know why Gary Chapman just didn't say acts of service, gifts and sex. Yeah, like, might as well. Why? Why fluff it up and try to call it something else? I mean, I know the answer to mask what it really is, but yeah, we've even talked about how really any of these love languages can be coercive, because there's always sort of like a threat of if you don't do this, then you don't love me. If you don't do this, then you don't care. So it's how can you coerce your partner to perform in your way, in your love language, to get what you want out of it? So it's riddled with coercion. Yeah. Wow. Well, and that's why I said it in a video recently, that I don't trust anybody who talks about love language other than in terms of this is how I love others. I like to give gifts. I like to give people words of affirmation. I like to spend quality time with people, and I like to give people hugs. That make sense, though. And that would be like not a red flag. That's a green flag because you're talking about what you give. Instead of centering yourself and thinking about what you get. And it's takes it from, you have to give me this. So I feel loved to. I would really like to do this for you because this is how I express my love. It can still can be coercive because my ex has been used to say, well, I just want to love you. I just want to love my wife. Oh, and you know, so then I'm not allowing him to love me in his chosen. I'm not allowed to. Want to sleep with my partner, so I'm not even allowed to be attracted to you. Oh, wow. But it was like arguing with a toddler. It really like it. Really. There's no logic. I don't even know how to defend against that. Now, the this version of me, this Lisa, I wouldn't bother like I wouldn't even, I would I would leave that version. I was like, I don't know how to explain this. Let me, let me try again. Let me make this make more sense. Let's go to counseling. Let's. And it was just I was constantly trying to figure out like, why does he see this as a transaction? Why do I have to earn kindness? You would think, and I would always say, I don't know why it has to be this way. And he's like, you just want to go first. You want your needs met. You don't care if mine are met. And I'm like, it just has to be that you go first. I have to feel the emotional connection. I can't explain it now. I know so much more about psychology and. And I don't care to explain it, but the safety has to exist first. That's how psychology work. That's how humans work. You need to feel safe, and you don't. When you're being coerced. You didn't know what you knew before. You knew what you knew. So true. I even say that now because it's like I blame myself for not knowing. Like, why didn't I have the language to explain it better? Question. The really is why did multiple couples counselors not have the language tackling it? Yeah, all just came down to communication and respect. And it was we were not really helped until one which saved everything. That was total. Saving. That's why it's so infuriating when men will say, we'll just say, no, you don't have to have sex with them. Just say no. Yeah. Like, here you go. Have you? I tell them, have you ever tried to say no to an angry man? No. But you know what, though? That isn't even fair. Because I have said that so many times. Like, unless you are a woman in a relationship with a man, because a man might say, yeah, I've said no to men before, but have you been a woman and said no to your husband before or your partner before the answer is no because you're a man, so you could never understand. It's the same thing with men saying, I have no idea who these men are that you women pick. They're your friends. Yeah, they're your pastors. They're your, you know, work mates. They're like, stop it, stop it right now because they're everywhere. You just don't know because you're not in the bedroom. And also these men, not all this category of abusive men, they don't necessarily talk about this with their friends, but if they did, they agree with each other. Yeah, they would just be their own little echo chamber. But also backing up a second, even if a man is not this way, particularly saying that you chose him is abuse to a woman, even if he believes that he's a perfectly good guy. And I don't know where you found this idiot, it's still your fault. So that's still abusive. And he can deny that if he wants to. But it is. Yeah. The ones that deny the abuse. I'm convinced they know their behavior is bad. But I've also made other videos and even part of episodes of this podcast where I talk about the entitlement. Like men just feel. These men feel so entitled to your body that you're not giving it. And again, this isn't something that you share with your spouse or share with your partner. This is something you get from your sex is a thing that you receive from women. Which dissenters? Women's pleasure. And we're not even part of it in your comment sections, which for those that don't know, just go right to the comment section of that video because it's brutal, but you really see things. But this idea that, you know, you have to get it, that women don't enjoy sex, there's this real belief of like, women don't even want it. So men are just trying to get it so that their needs are fulfilled. It doesn't even occur to them they really believe that women don't want it. Yeah. One of my most notorious trolls. I was just talking about him this morning. His name is. Godilus Maximus. You've probably seen him. I have seen that. Go to Maximus I have. You used to troll me and harassed me for probably 2 or 3 years, back and back, constantly at me until one day he said that women can't have orgasms. What kind of rock could you live under? I did a video response to that and have not seen him since. Oh, he probably felt stupid Oh yeah? Yeah. Do you remember women ate that up? Oh, I bet, I bet. Do you remember Paul 007. Yes. He's still around. I haven't seen him in a while. So listen, for those that don't know, Paul 007 he was always on my page. And that's page talking about women not wanting sex. And he was the perfect husband and how he got custody of his kids. And to be fair, I'm like, you probably got custody for the wrong reasons because this guy was so clearly, like, anti-woman, so aggressive. And his biggest topic, because I don't talk about only sexual coercion. I rarely talk about it. In fact, because it's traumatizing. That talks about it all the time. But those are the videos that he would appear on. Like that was his biggest thing, and it was always about how he was entitled to it, how men should cheat if they're not getting what they want. And I have this sort of obvious rhetorical question. Cool. So people should cheat. I mean, I know he said men should cheat, but people people should cheat. If they're not getting their needs met. Yeah. Because it suddenly it's interesting how like emotional needs. Yeah. Women shouldn't cheat. If you cheat, you're a whore. But what are men if they cheat? Oh, he has no choice. He has no choice. He has to cheat because he's not getting it enough at home. Let's not talk about why he's not getting it. Yeah. And honestly, even the reasons within the why he's not getting it, I know we all default to he's not doing enough around the house. She's exhausted. And then listen those things are absolutely true. But it also feeds into the transactional nature. If he did more then yeah, but it's not. When I mean, when I talk about it, it's not, you have to ease her mind like by taking away some of her chores so she'll have sex with you. It's, you need to just participate as a partner so that she feels safe with you. And she doesn't feel like it's a transaction, and her life just runs smoothly, and her libido never really has a chance to shut down. Yeah, because she has a park. Yeah, a partner, partner keyword. You know, like friends. I used to friend a lot, too. That really triggers them. They do not because be a friend to their wife. Which I really Chuck Dary, who's the, he's retired, but he's the founder of the Gender Violence Institute. He once said that the entitlement that women are here to serve men, it's so prevalent that when you sort of look at these relationships, it's like they're entitled to this. It doesn't even occur to them to be a partner because they are meant to get get sex, get labor, get everything. So partner, like get out. Yeah, you're making no sense. And women aren't equal to them. Yeah. It's never going to be a healthy relationship. And honestly, so many women are married to or in long term relationships with men who are like this. And when we allow this, that's just how men are type of attitude in it. And you see it, boys will be boys. It's it that mentality goes through their whole life. And you're like, well, I just, I have to do this. I remember not to get graphic here, but I absolutely remember laying there like almost an out of body experience. Like, how much longer will this take? Yeah. And that's, you know, haha. Men think, oh yeah, because women don't like it. No, I don't like you. Yeah I can honestly now looking back I'm like, no, it wasn't sex, it was him. Yeah. Well when the men come to say, well, if you don't like him, why are you married to him? Because if guys like. If you say you're not allowed to. Not like your husband. Yeah, it's it's it comes from too many directions and and honestly, man, a massive topic even even that. Like, why don't you just say no? Because. And you've described this so well, anything that disrespects your no is is you not feeling like you have the freedom, like the eyeroll. Yeah. Some guys will scream at you or hit you. Yes, but that's not the majority. I think that the majority is the eyeroll the it's been two weeks the or. Just fine and walking away. And being pissed off or I mean mine would do this. Fine. I'll go jerk off in the bathroom. Oh. I'm so, so just be in the next room. Like it's weird. It's so it makes you feel guilty and then you, and especially when you're using. But the book said and our counselor said that this book or God says and and none of. That is loving at all. None of it. And so over the years, as my content has shifted, I've shifted not totally away from sexual coercion, but more into instead of what not to do, what do we do in terms of how to actually love for someone? And it starts with loving me and having boundaries for me and protections for me and my own love. Language is for me too. Am I giving myself words of affirmation? Am I giving myself physical touch? Do I buy myself gifts? Do I do things for myself that are acts of service? Am I covering me first before everybody else? And then once I feel safe and grounded within myself, then I can more easily recognize that other people are treating me as well as I'm treating me. Yeah, that's amazing though. Like and actually I love the shift to I feel like my content has shifted as well for for different reasons, but like you start talking about something and then you learn and you just uncover more layers so you can talk about sexual coercion all day. We talk about this book all day, but there's so much more to it. Yeah. And how to have a really healthy, happy, safe, emotionally safe relationship. Yeah, but men need to be interested in healthy, connected relationships. And I understand all the reasons that it's hard, I really do, but also like suck it up and do what's hard because that's what's going to get men better relationships with themselves and with their partners and have lasting, happy marriages, not miserable. My wife doesn't even want to sleep with me. I don't even understand how men Paul 007 was this man, actually; I'll never forget this. It was like, just do it anyway. You can just do this one thing for me. You got a headache, just pop an aspirin. You know what I mean? Just get over it. Just what does it take, like, five minutes? Yeah. So, I actually wrote a few months ago on my Substack. I wrote a piece called 27 Love Languages because I started, it started on Threads A lot of conversation happens on Threads. And I just started listing the things that I love to do for people and that I love connection. Not even services or things you do for and with people, but just the times that I have been with the man and felt loved, felt a connection, something just a glance from across the room, in a crowded room and I look at him, he looks at me. And you just know that nothing else matters in that moment. It's just us, right? That's a love label it a love language might be just running through the rain together. A love language might be having, sharing a cup of coffee together whatever. So I came up with 27 of them. And I say it's always growing. I'm always adding to it because I'm just finding all those little moments that we're connecting. And it's not about the thing, you know, if I say my love languages are having coffee together, I don't I don't want a man to just be like, let's go get coffee because it's your love language. I just want that to happen naturally. And then we see each other in that moment. And it's it's a connection and we know it and that's it. That's all I need. Yeah, there's some simplicity to that. In my mind when you're saying this, I'm literally picturing my own ex abuser being like, oh my God, you're ridiculous. Fine. Let's go get coffee. And then I. Have to go get coffee. We have 27. I have to do 27 things to get sex. Right. That's 100%. Oh, my God, you're ridiculous. This is brutal. You've so much. I would say, like, can we just. Can we just spend time together? Yeah. Quality time. Right. That's what you said. And he's like, okay, fine, fine, let's spend time together. And I'm like, okay, well, we could like, what do you feel like doing? Know you come up with the thing. I'm like, okay, let's we could we could go to the movies. Oh my God, you're always spending money. It has to be free. It has to be on this day. It has to be this. I'm like, okay, okay. So, like, all we could do is a walk. We take a walk. Okay. Did we have sex that night after the walk? No, of course we didn't. Because a walk doesn't work. And I'm like, yeah. Oh my god. Like my anxiety of like how do I make him happy? Oh my God. It was too much. And it's exhausting. 27 things together and still feel hated by that man. That oh, see, that's the thing. That man hated me. Yeah. And in hindsight it was so crystal clear. There was another content creator, Coach Shonda. She talks about, like, men hating their wives. And I never in my life thought about my partner hates me. Yeah, it never like. What do you mean? We're together? But now I'm like, They can hate you. And actually, Chuck dary, same person I was talking about. Yeah. Yes. Like they can just not even like you. There are so many benefits for men to get married. They don't have to like you. That's not like what? Like her. They don't. That's why when you talk about friendship, it's like the. You get the biggest reaction. Because why on earth would a man be friends with a woman? But if you're socialized as a child to not run like a girl and don't be, you know, too feminine and you, you don't like women, so then you grow up and you want something from them, but you don't like them, so you don't want to take a walk in the rain and have coffee and take walks. You want to get what you need, which I will die on the hill. They don't need it. Yeah, yeah. Controversial. And I have a video out there. I think last year I had a fake conversation with a man in which I said, you know, there's this guy behind me, too. I said, do you like your wife? And he goes, I love my wife. But do you like her? I love her, it's different. But do you like her? And he's like, no, it's love. It's different. So but I'm like, man, he just doesn't like her. Yeah. Being in a healthy relationship now, like, I've been with someone for three years and I remember like six months and actually I sent you a text and I was like, guess what? He doesn't coerce me. Oh, my God, not. You're not going to believe this. I'm allowed to say no. What? Oh my God. And it makes me not want to say no. Yeah. And you were like, amazing. I'm so happy for you too. Yeah. I have, a video of, Valentine's Day where I had gotten an Airbnb for us and then started my period. And I was just like, oh, what do I do? This was for his birthday, and he just he was just totally cool about it. He was like, that's all right. What's the big deal? What do you goes, we can do other stuff. And he and then even like as we were planning it, he was he was like, no, no, no, you just relax. I'll call the whatever and find out if they're open. And like, he's like, you've got your period. You just relax. Oh my God. See? And I just want what the takeaway is from these two little mini stories is not on them. Yes. They're not. Safe. Not all men now so do I. Oh I used to be like, I will never say those words, but actually I will. I will say them all day long, but only to be sarcastic. Yeah, exactly. Like I'll say, like men are so smart and capable. But not all men. Not all men. Yeah, yeah, men are the first ones to tell us that it's all men, you know, to like. All you need to do is, you know, keep your man happy. It reminds me of that guy, who did his wedding vows, right? He was standing up in front of his mother. Was officiating and all that, and he was like, you just need to keep his belly full and his balls empty. Yeah. I'm like, like, oh, it would. Immediate annulment. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But to me, I was like, all man, I'm just. I'm just asking if it's all men because you guys are constantly saying it's not all men, but is that is that all? Is it? It is all men. And when they when they say many texts, all, you know, and they do, they say it's all men. Yeah, well, cherry picking is, And well, when they say need to, I say, but do you want a woman to sleep with you? Because she wants to. Because she wants you and she just desires you and can't keep her hands off of you, or because, okay. Because you need it. Because it's been three days and you get in trouble if you don't. I mean, I can't. Is that how you want the sex to happen? But how does a man want that? Like the fact that you could sleep with someone who doesn't want you like you understand that you are putting a body part inside someone else's body part and they don't want it. And you're cool with that. What kind of person are you? I actually had a follower, and I have no idea what happened to him. He disappeared last year. He was in his 80s, and he told me. He confessed. He said he. It was very like one of those quiet comments that leaves you going. Where did that come from? Right. He said, yeah, they know that you don't want it and that they they tell themselves that you want it. They know, but they convince themselves. In the moment. She's changed her mind and she really wants me now. I guess you need to. Otherwise you feel like you're R-wording your spouse. And so you. It's the same thing happening in the wife. When I made a video yesterday because the woman said she was dissociating during sex, but she specifically said she does the reverse cowgirl where she's turned away from him. So he won't see that she's dissociating. She thought it was funny in the comments. She's saying it was a joke. Haha, isn't it funny? And I said that's pretty much rape. If you're not all there, you're dissociating. That tells me that you don't want that to be happening, but you just are. But you're turned away and you don't want him to know because it's going to hurt him, because then he'll know he's raping you, right? Right. And so the same thing is happening in the man. He's convincing himself. She just changed her mind. Yeah, that's I mean, hey, what did you have to tell yourself? Something to get through it, I suppose, but. It's you is what's killing the libido. Yeah. Having to look away. And even what I was describing of, like, how much longer is this? Or like, how many days has it been? Because I need to. It's like, it's so gross. And that's exactly the stuff that dries up marriages completely. But you know, this, this book and the way that the book has been written and the fact that in both of our experience and I see it again so often, that physical touch is the love language of men, and then that becomes the weapon, I think, for any woman listening to this, if, if it feels like that's his love language or he's straight up set it, it's something to really kind of stop and consider because I like me, I wonder if many women are like, oh my God, what they're describing is my life, my marriage, my relationship really kind of slow down and think about the transactions that are happening, the coercion, the threats, the the feelings, the eyeroll. Like, think about these things. And really, is this the relationship you want for? I would say for the women who really, truly believe they have a good husband. He's not abusive. He's not coercive. His love language happens to be physical touch. How could he be healthier if he could encompass all kinds of love languages? And how is this a deficit for him and for you if he's limited to this one? That's a really, really good question. So I want everybody to use that as your takeaway for today. Please listen to that and also check out Nat's content. I'm going to put everything in the caption in the show notes so that people can reach you or your website, check out your Substack and just really learn more about this. Because even to this day, I don't think it's talked about enough. And you're one of the loudest voices he's allowed. Yeah, I love it. I love loud women. I mean, to all of you. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much.