Serial Cheating Isn’t a Struggle. It’s a Strategy. | Ep. 013

Cheating doesn't always happen in spite of how much it hurts you. Sometimes it happens because it hurts you - because that's the exact reason they want you to feel that pain, to feel less than. But the psychology behind serial cheating is more complex than we might think, and understanding it can help us make better decisions about our relationships and our own healing.

This week, I sit down with Dr. Kate Balestrieri, a licensed psychologist and certified sex therapist, to explore the real motivations behind serial cheating. We dive deep into the concept of "eroticized rage" and how cheaters use infidelity to restore power, seek revenge, transgress social norms, or possess what feels out of reach. Kate explains why the common narrative of "unmet sexual needs" is actually bullshit - men don't have a biological need for sex, and cheating is rarely about the betrayed partner at all. We discuss the difference between compulsive sexual behavior and coercive control, why some people weaponize the "sex addiction" label, and how patriarchal conditioning creates sexual entitlement in relationships. Kate also shares insights on why saying "just leave" isn't always realistic and how to assess whether a relationship involving infidelity is worth trying to repair. Throughout our conversation, we emphasize that no one is entitled to sex from another person, and that healing from betrayal requires individual work - not couples therapy.

Resources Mentioned:

Dr. Kate Balestrieri's book: "What Happened to My Sex Life? A Sex Therapist's Guide to Reclaiming Lost Desire, Connection and Pleasure": https://a.co/d/7Cj0iCb 

"Isn't Sex My Right?" webinar featuring Dr. Kate Balestrieri https://strongerthanbefore.podia.com/isn-t-sex-my-right-why-sexual-coercion-is-abuse-webinar-replay 

Connect with Dr. Kate Balestrieri:

Website: https://www.modernintimacy.com/

Social Media: @drkatebalestrieri

Transcript

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I want to be wanted because that means something about me. And the fact that you don't want me is infuriating, and it makes me feel helpless and powerless. So now I'm just going to demand it, or I'm going to guilt you into it 00000. Cheating doesn't always happen in spite of how much it hurts you. Sometimes it happens because it hurts you, because that's the exact reason they want you to feel that pain and to feel that hurt, to feel less then. So today we're talking about serial cheating. And today I have Doctor Kate Balestrieri who is a sex therapist host of Get Naked and founder of Modern Intimacy. So, Kate, can you tell us a little bit about you and your background? Yeah. Of course. Thank you so much for inviting me on your show. I'll start just for the CliffsNotes. I'm. I'm a licensed psychologist. As you mentioned. I am a clinical and forensic psychologist and a certified sex therapist. And I got my start in this field, actually working with convicted sex offenders. So I did evaluations and treatment for many years, working with people whose relationship with sexual behavior was often a desperate plea to communicate something else about what they needed or wanted in their own lives or wanted to experience. So working along this precipice of sexuality, mental health has been something that I've been very accustomed to in many different domains. Many different clinical presentations for about 20 years. So you talked about, manifestation of needs from where I sit, like I'm a certified coach, I talk to people who've been in or are in abusive relationships, and I constantly see this narrative that needs of the man are unmet, the sexual needs are unmet, and therefore it's her fault that he cheated. And women really internalize that and figure out what they've done wrong, or what they could be doing more of. Or they definitely engage in sex they don't want to be having. What do you. Think? Yeah, well, I would say that systemically, we are set up in a patriarchal society to often deflect blame away from men. So whenever men exhibit behavior that's problematic or hurtful, often the default in a patriarchy is to look at some other external force that might be responsible for that. Protection of men. Kate Mann calls it empathy in her book Down Girl. And, it is very systemic. So I'm not surprised to hear you say that. I certainly work with a lot of women who do internalize fault and blame and who are blamed, for the problematic behavior of their male partners. But that's like in mental health terms, we might call that a Davos strategy. So, deny attack, reverse victim and offender. It's a way that people who have engaged in problematic behavior get to deflect accountability to someone else, because with accountability often comes, a mandate to stop the behavior. And maybe that's compelling someone from not wanting to take that accountability. But often it's also about deflecting the emotions that come with accountability. Oftentimes, shame and shame is a really powerful feeling, and it's one that we don't often want to feel and don't feel comfortable feeling. So when folks have to sit in it, it can lead them to a lot of motivation to deflect away so that they don't have to feel it. That is so true. I completely relate to that. Like I have been cheated on and I know that feeling of did I caused this? I have to admit though deep down I was like this can't I? How are you blaming me? I was stumbling over my words like the audacity, and I sort of have now studied and realized these men, not all. And these men, they're so entitled. Well, yeah, that's also a function of patriarchy. and some folks, some men take it up more than others. And there can be exacerbating factors to why some people become more entitled than others do. But when we look at the way that men are often socialized, there tends to be a false empowerment. And we get to entitlement through two paths, right? One is false empowerment, meaning we've not had enough consequences for behavior that's not pro-social. Or that's problematic in some way. And the other is through resentment. Right. So maybe we've gone without for a long period of time, both resentment and sort of that real like aggrieved justified resentment and false empowerment lead to entitled behavior. So yeah, the men do show it in ways that maybe women women show it to women are not exempt from that. But, a lot of men tend to get there because of the false empowerment of sexism in our society. Women tend to feel more, resentment because they have been done dirty in a lot of ways by some of the same systemic, you know, an oppressive dynamics. I could not agree with you more on what you just said. It's not always that women are just reacting to men. Right. Completely recognize that. But so often and I know I mean where I sit right. I'm looking at this through the lens of a woman who's been traumatized, who's been in an abusive relationship more than one, and who exclusively. I work with only women, and I so see the way that they describe it to me. I see the entitlement, I see the ego in the men that they're describing and even sadism. But I didn't want to label it that like sadistic sadism. That feels like a whole different topic. And yet I think that often we're missing this aspect of sadism that's there of like, you don't want me to cheat, I'm going to keep doing it. You're going to keep forgiving me, and I'm just going to do it again and again and again. Do you see that? Oh, of. Course, I think sadism definitely can be a factor. In some of the more extreme cases. But there are a couple of other frameworks that we might want to explore first. So, Patrick Carnes, who is the person who developed the sex addiction treatment model, talks about Eroticized rage as being a predicating factor for what often motivates people to act out sexually and engage in sort of these sexual boundary violations and collapses. So Eroticized rage is broken down into four different categories. The first is the restoration of parity rights. If someone feels like they're one down, whether or not they are or they perceive themselves to be sort of irrelevant, but if they perceive themselves to be one down, they might have a sexualized thought or behavior that's designed to give them the experience of a one up. So in relationship that might look like, well, my, my partner is really quote unquote nagging. I hate that term, by the way, but nagging me to take the garbage out. Let's just use an old tired trope. I feel so quote unquote emasculated, right? So let me go watch porn and get my power back. Let me go talk to someone sexually. I'll get my power back. And so whether or not the partner ever learns about it, there's a belief that the sexual behavior or thought can sort of restore what feels like lost power. The second category is, around revenge, humiliation, and retaliation. So I think about this category as a way to disavow shame. If I feel shame or humiliated, I might use a sexualized thought or behavior to displace that shame in someone else, whether or not they ever find out about my thought or my behavior. If the fantasy in my head is that they would be humiliated, oh, that's that's powerful. I don't have to feel that shame then, because they're going to feel it for me. Right? So that's maybe one category where this can come up. The next is called, the perversion of social norms or like, you know, taboos, taboo, transgression. And this really comes up when people feel out of control or helpless in some way. So again, if I can make someone else feel shock or helpless or out of control, then I don't have to feel that. So the way this shows up is maybe doing something that goes against the social convention, or doing something that would evoke a lot of, shock and awe other people. So for most folks, an affair is one of those boundary or like social taboos. You don't do it because socially, we've agreed that these are our fidelity arrangements and we don't step out of them. But doing something that might be like really on the outskirts of what is acceptable to someone sexually, it could be another way of like, wow, if my partner ever found this out, they would be so shocked. It'd be so startling that they would feel really helpless. And so again, it's I don't want to feel this. If someone else can feel it through my behavior, then I feel more in control. The last category of eroticized rage is what's called, obsession. And so obsession is the way we kind of possess what feels out of our grasp. So think about like, folks who feel like love or sex or being desired might be a scarcity for them. They might try to obsess.. it's unconscious often, but they might obsess about someone, ruminate about someone, severate around their desire for someone, or they might even collect stories, or collect images, or collect experiences to shore up a sense of I have enough access to this thing that feels scarce or unavailable to me. So when people struggle with abandonment or rejection, they might collect as a way to counterbalance that. And I would say all of those things may lead up to it in terms of like intensity and acuity might come before sadism, whose sadism is really intentional. And a lot of folks, are not consciously so intentional. It's a very unconscious process that they're stuck in when they are, you know, taking extra relational behavior. Over and over again. Yeah. I think the, the repetitious, way that obviously serial cheating takes place, it really does a number on the victims self-worth and how they see themselves, and maybe they'll have body image issues. But it really I see this pattern of blame and it's coming self blame. But I mean the the the abuser, the perpetrator of the cheating is really seemingly trying to hurt you. But I love the explanation that it's not necessarily one thing. I really feel like a lot of people, and I get it, it's human nature. We want black and white answers and sometimes there's some gray area. It's not to excuse the behavior. It's more to me fascinating to understand the behavior. When somebody cheats. So often you look at why they do it, which I don't know that that's always the best kind of path to go down. I've always why they do it. It's really what is the impact on me. That's what we should be asking when we're in that situation. Okay. Yeah. Why am I tolerating this? And not from a place of judging yourself, just from a place of understanding what is leading you to allow the rationalizations in. Totally. I mean, Doctor Santa can always sense there's no angels and there's no devils in relationships. And I think that's really important to hang on to. And I understand that when you are cheated on, it's devastating. I've been in that situation myself multiple times, unfortunately. So, you know, let me put a caveat on this. As a woman, I understand how easy it is to be like, you know, that's the bad guy. I got cheated on. I was wronged, and yes, it is easier to think in those black and white terms. And as a psychologist and someone who understands human behavior, it's important to recognize that oftentimes people's behavior. And here's maybe the rub it's not about you. And that's why it hurts because they're not thinking about you. They're not doing it to you. They would be doing it no matter who they're in partnership with, because there's something about the behavior that is self-protective for them. And when we can sort of take some of that, like they're doing it to me, even though, yes, it's happening to you, they may not be doing it to you. We can take ourselves out of that place. It does give us a little bit of perspective that can allow for the space to not internalize so much blame, right? Because often that desire to find blame, even if it's I'm going to blame myself. I could have had more sex with my partner. I could have made more time. I could have done all these things. Well, maybe. Maybe not. But you can't fuck someone into fidelity, first of all, right? And they're not doing it to you. Most of the time. They're doing it because they're expressing a need for some kind of self-protection. And that can often feel like the biggest rub, like, why weren't you thinking about me when you when you made this decision? Why why didn't you think about how this would affect me? And I work with people on both sides of this equation. The betraying people and the betrayed people and the betraying people often say things like, I wasn't thinking about you at all because they're so compartmentalized in their self-protection that sometimes, and this is going to sound, you know, really hard to hear potentially. But in their minds and their cognitive distortions, they actually feel like they are protecting their partner from their behavior. And so they're so compartmentalized and so separated. It's like, I do this over here, and I do this with my partner over there, and never the two worlds shall meet. And that bifurcation, that fragmentation in themselves is part of their self-protection. So for them they're like, well, I wasn't thinking about you. I wasn't doing this to you, and it shouldn't matter. And, you know, and I love you. And of course, all those things can be true, but they're not acting in pro relationship ways. So it's really hard to understand that it is. I think you are so right that that can be hard to hear, because I talk a lot with clients about like, it feels so personal and, and I think where my where my mind went when you said that is, well, they're not going to be cheating on the next person. How come he's not cheating on the new supply? And it's like first of all, you don't know that. And so I would bet that they are. Oh yes. To your point, it was never about you. It's about the perpetrator. If they're doing it, there is some unmet need. Although I just want to highlight and perhaps even frame this as a question, what's with the need for sex? Because that's what it gets positioned us. Yeah. Everything you just said. Nah. Psychology B.S., it's just that she's not having enough sex with him. He just needs more sex. That's it? Yeah. What do you think, I ask? It's bullshit. You know, Human beings do not have a need for sex with another person. We will not die if we do not have sex with another person. So therefore, it is not in need, right? It is a want. And certainly do people, benefit from being sexual? Of course, there's so many benefits to sex, but for a lot of men, the need for sex is actually language that is holding other needs for them that they haven't really been able to articulate to themselves. They want to feel powerful. They want to feel strong. They want to feel desired. They want to feel virile and young. They want to feel something else. And sex has been the vehicle that they have used to access that feeling. And so they come in. They want to feel masculine. So for a lot of men who really are organized around traditional gender ideology, they want to feel potent in their masculinity because they want to feel competitive with other men. So the sex that they are seeking is less about I want connection and it's more about I want to prove my masculinity right there. It's it's, sex becomes a stage upon which they are performing masculinity for themselves, for other men. This is all unconscious. Of course, not many men will walk into a room and say, I'm performing my masculinity. So can we have some sex right now? All right, so here's some here. Here's where sort of this expectation gets dumped in the laps of women, as if women are supposed to shore up men's egos, or they're supposed to shore up their desire to feel sexually virile and potent and masculine. So a lot of men do put this need on their partner's lap, like, you should want to have sex with me, because I want you to want to have sex with me. And so I want this to be loud and clear for everyone who's listening. Your partner will not die if they are not having sex with you. And sex is not something that that we are supposed to give to another person. It's not a transaction. It's not a commodity. So sex is something that we co cultivate with another human. If we're having partnered sex or we cultivate in our own bodies, if we're having solo sex and it can be a connective space, a pleasurable space, an emotionally, beautiful space, and also it can be a vehicle for people to feel things that they want to feel about themselves, kind of separate from that connection with the partner. So no one is entitled to sex with another person, no matter what they might say, and no matter how much they might huff and puff and try to convince you otherwise. Yeah, that's important. And for those that don't know, I hosted a webinar called Isn't Sex My Right? And Doctor Kate was on the panel. So if you are interested in hearing more about consent and coercion and that sort of realm of topics, I'm going to tag that in the description in the show notes so people can access that. But, you know, you're hitting on something so important if it's a need. And so women will feel and frankly, these men will straight up say, if you were having sex with me x number of times per week, I know it's different for everybody, but let's call it 4 or 3 times per week, then I wouldn't. But to your point, yeah, they would because that's not what's really going on. Right. And that's, that's often, a coercive tactic. Right. If only you would if you would do this, then I wouldn't do that. Everyone's responsible for their own behavior. Right. So in fact, in my book, What Happened to My Sex Life? I have a whole chapter on do I have to say yes? And I talk about sexual entitlement and coercion and how this becomes the antithesis to desire. And there's been plenty of research that shows the more sexual entitlement there is in a relationship, the lower the non entitled partners desire is going to be. Why? Because no one wants to feel like an obligation and the more someone's entitled feels entitled to sex with you, the less likely it is that you're going to want it. Because now it feels like work and it's labor and it's something that is being extracted from you, and that is not sexy no matter how we spin it. Unless it's your take, of course. But then that's a consensual situation. That's a different story. But for a lot of folks who have been socialized to believe that when you partner with someone, especially, if they maybe grew up in more high control religion where they have learned this messaging of when you get married, your sexuality belongs to your partner, right? There can be a lot of deconstructing around that, and there can be a lot of messages in people's community that erroneously support the idea that when you partner with someone, you have to have sex that's a wifely duty or a husband duty or a marriage duty. It's not. And the more you kind of sit with that, the more it starts to feel like an ick. And it should. I honestly, for those that are watching this not listening, you will see my face is like, oh, because. But like, I just I can't understand even though I can, I can explain this. But like the thought of like, I'm not into this, but let's do it anyway. If if she were free enough to say out loud, okay, fine, let's get it over with. Which is what she's thinking in her head. You still want to do it, right? Like in. What? There's a lot of men don't, but they want to be desired. And so their entitlement is like, I want you to desire me. I want you to make me feel better about myself and sex is the way that I'm convinced you're going to do that, right? I want to be wanted because that means something about me. And the fact that you don't want me is infuriating, and it makes me feel helpless and powerless. So now I'm just going to demand it, or I'm going to guilt you into it so that I can have the illusion of that desire coming in my direction. But when I talk to men who have used coercive behavior in their relationships, often. They don't realize what it is they're really wanting. most of them know on some level that they are being coercive, but they'll deny it up and down, left and right, because they don't want to see themselves as people who are engaging in that behavior. So there's a lot of shame that prevents them from taking accountability from that. But they know on some level that there is a push and they don't like it. They don't want to have to push their partner. Yeah. They also aren't doing things to cultivate desire in a real, authentic way. So for anyone listening who's thinking, oh gosh, I just need to show my partner more love and more care and more desire. No, no, no. Only if that's authentic for you. Right. And the the conversation between partners often, if there has been entitlement or coercion, first there needs to be a lot of repair because it's near impossible to feel 100% safe with someone if they've been exhibiting entitlement or coercion, sexually or otherwise, in the partnership. So sex may need to be off the table for a while until that safety and that repair is established. If you're going to stay in that relationship. And that's something that the coercive partner needs to figure out how to be okay with on their own without bringing it as a guilting strategy to the partner that they've been coercing. So that's individual work that they need to do separate from the coupleship That's key. I just want to highlight that like this is not go to couples counseling or go, what what what led me into therapy, which thus led me into realizing it was abuse was my abuser. Asked, demanded. I shouldn't even give him the courtesy of saying asked that we go see a sex therapist to, quote, fix me because women want to sleep with their partner and I'm weird and something's wrong with me. And I didn't go see a sex therapist. We saw a couples counselor, but that's what led me. Not that she's, specializing in sex, but she was like, did you know that a natural reaction to being abused is not wanting to sleep with your partner? Which was shocking to him and also really upsetting, obviously, because he couldn't sit in that shame of, like, you are being coercive and abusive in every way, but I don't want people to think like, okay, go to couples therapy and figure this out. You just said something. So key of individual work. Yeah, it does need to be individual work and it needs to be, well, individual or work in a group context with other people who are navigating that and who will hold that person accountable. Right. Accountability is really hard because of all that shame and the entitlement and the entitlement is a protection for the shame. Right? So yeah, it's not work. That should then be just put back that emotional labor should not be put back onto the partner who's been abused or coerced, or whose sexual experience has been extracted from them. It is normal to feel a disgust response or an aversion. That's a safety reaction in the body. And until the partner starts showing up with authentic cultivation of desire, right? Trust building exercises things that actually can, you know, allow a partner's body to start feeling okay again in their presence, if that's even possible. In this partnership. Yeah, that can take some time and it can feel frustrating for both partners. And the frustration is fine. That's part of the process. But it's, it is not okay to expect that the partner has been coerced. You can just flip a switch and suddenly feel desire and safety. Yeah. I think especially if you've been coerced and cheated on, now you feel like you're at risk of STDs. You might be worried that you're still being cheated on, like it can really mess with your mind in such a big way. I want to ask you about this concept of sex addiction because again, in the work that I do, I hear a lot of women ask me, is he a sex addict? And I am in no position to diagnose. I'm a certified coach. I am not a psychologist. And even if I was, I always say to people I can't diagnosable through another person. But women seem to take that on. Like maybe he's just a sex addict. I just want I want to hear your take on that. Just the even the concept of it, it borders to me like weaponized therapy talk. As we hear that phrase more, it's like, oh, that's why I cheat. It can be weaponized in that way. But let me back up a little bit. So, you know, there's not a consensus amongst mental health professionals in terms of how do we label the behavior that is commonly thought of as sex addiction? So some therapists will call it sex addiction. And there are treatment models that address out-of-control sexual behavior as if it were an addiction. There's some treatment models that take a slightly different approach and look at it as out of control sexual behavior or compulsive sexual behavior. Different people resonate with different language, as they're experiencing it in their own bodies and their own relationships. So it's really not for me to say what language should or shouldn't be used. But I think what's important to note is that there isn't a consensus, about how we understand it and how we label it. But definitely there are some folks who do struggle with containing behaviors, stopping behavior that they've determined they don't want to do anymore, and it does feel very out of control or compulsive for them. And so it's not for me to say that does or doesn't exist. These folks really are in a lot of pain. They've tried to stop behavior in a way that has not been successful for them. So, it is a real thing to look at and can be really damaging in people's lives. And there are also some people who are not engaging in compulsive or out-of-control sexual behavior. But the language of sex addiction does give them something to say. Oh, wow this must be the reason for my behavior. And it can be a path toward containment that can be effective. And for some people, it can be a path toward weaponizing an excuse to continue doing the same behavior over and over again. So I will say, there is help out there for people who are struggling. And sometimes we're treating compulsively and sometimes we are addressing entitlement or other kinds of behaviors that predicate the the sexual behavior that's being labeled as out of control. And sometimes it's there's an overlap and it's both. again, that sort of speaks to like we so badly want like, is he a sex addict or is he not a sex addict? Doctor Kate, tell me right now. And I don't know that anything really is truly that black and white. There's always going to be kind of a mixture. But I think what I aim to have people understand is that if they don't have a diagnosis and I suppose perhaps even if they do, given you've just said it's not in the DSM-5. It's not the hall pass. It's not an excuse. So whether they're a sex addict or not, I think we need to put that aside in some ways and just look at like, how is this behavior actually impacting you? And is this going to continue happening because the predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Isn't it something like three times. The the predictor of future behavior is often current behavior. And the predictor of current behavior is past behavior. So people can change, they can grow, they can create, new ways of coping and new ways of understanding their behavior. So I think the, the question that a lot of betrayed partners get stuck on is, is this sex addiction? Is it something else? I think they're really looking for? What is the likelihood that the behavior is going to stop? And if I can understand what causes it, it might help me understand the prognosis and the likelihood that it will or will not continue. And so for some people learning that their partner has a sex addiction, it gives them some trust. Oh wow, they're not doing this on purpose. They're not doing it to me. It's something that's out of their control and out of my control. Just like if it were a drug addiction. I can work with that, right? Other people might look at that and say, oh wow, it's an addiction. That to me feels out of their control, out of my control. I don't know if I can work with that. Right. And some people have the same perspective when they look at, oh, this is entitlement. This is patriarchal conditioning. This is something that is maybe out of their control. It's so ingrained in how they understand themselves to be. I don't know if I can work with that. Whereas other people might say, oh, well, entitlement is actually something that can be addressed differently that that doesn't feel as dangerous as long as they get a handle on their entitlement and they are more humble and more accountable moving forward. So it's important, I think, to ask the question of why do you want to know the what to call it or how to understand it? How does that serve you? And understanding how you make sense of your options and how you understand your partner's motive. And the motive felt important to me. So I can relate to other women, other people wanting the reason. Like I think if they're a sex addict, it's like they're an alcoholic. It's like, okay, there's an addiction, there's a reason it's a disease. How can I help you? How can I not abandon my partner through what they're going through? And again, in the context of my realm of of what I talk about, fundamentally, most of these men, they're abusive in multiple ways. So I can sort of brushstroke them all with the title of abuser. And they're often lying about it's a sex addiction, or even lying about the fact that they blame their partner. Although lying is interesting because to your point, they really think that, you know, they really have that entitlement, that they deserve to have it. And if you don't give it, give it as if it's something to. A commodity. Part of a transaction, a commodity in the relationship that it's her fault. Anyway, all of that is so hard. And I think really, if you kind of wrap that up, that psychological abuse to convince someone of that. Yeah. I mean, I think you're really touching on an interesting point here because, again, there's sort of a continuum of acuity and a continuum of severity and a continuum of consciousness. So it's really, not useful to speak in broad generalizations, because what you're describing sounds more like coercive control, in which infidelity is one weapon of that coercive control. And that is a very different motivation and, symptom presentation than someone who is compulsively watching porn because they're trying to regulate difficult feelings. And this is a space where they've sort of over coupled, eroticism, sexuality and shame reduction, for example. So really different presentations and manifestations and consciousness, right? One person is not trying to hurt their partner. One person is using infidelity as a weapon in their arsenal of obtaining ultimate control. And that is a very different clinical picture to treat. Oh, I would bet I would bet. Do you think that there's and I mean, this is a difficult question I can imagine. Is there a way for people to figure that out? The the person who's being cheated on, is there a way for them to sort of assess whether or not it's something that they should sort of try to stick around and help their partner through or leave? Yeah, I, I think that it's such an individual decision and so much is based on sort of how safe they feel in, in all of their choices. So what I will say is that we are all kind of subject to a bit of, myopic view when we are involved in any sort of dynamic. So if you're unsure of what you're seeing, it's maybe a good idea to work with people who are professionals in this space and who can assess the difference between out of control sexual behavior and coercive control and an overall abusive relationship. So working with folks who can sort of objectively be like, well, let's look at all of the data and all of the fact patterns and see what exists can help with bringing someone into reality. And in doing so with clarity. Because if you are in a dynamic where there's out-of-control sexual behavior happening or, somebody has been chronically cheating or there's coercive control, or it's any constellation of those things, there is often a lot of gaslighting that's going on in the relationship that may really undermine someone's ability to trust what they're understanding. So I would say working with someone outside is a good first step. If you have access to that, and have the resources for it. And otherwise you can do a lot of educating yourself online to try to understand the data that you're seeing. But again, we all have a, we've got something to lose, right? If we're in partnership with someone and there is often a lot of self-protection that can come in the form of denial when we are looking at data that maybe is hard to see and hard to sit with about the truth about our relationship. I see that a lot in the cognitive dissonance of sort of living in two realities, like he cheats on me and he loves me. And a really oversimplified is he doesn't love you if he cheats on you. That's it. And I think in the context of maybe more, where I'm leaning with this person is abusing you in other ways as well. And there's coercive control. That's abuse. And what you are also, you know, making clear is that that's not always the case, which I think is great. It's confusing when you're in it, when you're like, okay, but he's mean to me in other ways. Maybe it's not abuse, maybe it's not. So I know that there's so much gray and so much confusion around figuring this out, and I always tell people to just really focus on how you feel because you don't owe it to anybody, whether they're abusive, not abusive, compulsive, sadistic, entitled, It's not your responsibility to stay with someone who's cheating on you, or even figure out the reasons you could just leave if that's what you want to do. I just know that it's not so easy, and I'm never going to sit here and say, just leave if he cheats on you. Right? I, I'm really glad that you're saying that. It's it's not always easy to see it. And, and sometimes, people have grown up in homes that excuse a lot of really, dysfunctional or unhealthy behavior. And so they understand it to be a norm and they understand it to be something familiar. So it may not always register that they're being treated in ways that maybe are not healthy or are not part of a secure, functioning relationship. So often there's there can be a lot of denial or there can be a lot of self-protection that makes it hard to even see that and accept it as. Unhealthy or toxic behavior. I think we want to see our partner as fixable. You know, like, I can solve this. I can. How can I get this person to stop cheating on me as if we have that power, which A we don't, and b, I don't even want that kind of power. I want to be with somebody who doesn't want to cheat on me. That might be the goal, right? Simple. But also, I think we get invested in not seeing ourselves as seeing ourselves as someone who wouldn't be cheated on or wouldn't be abused. Like that's the way that the self protections kind of sneak in and keep us stuck in a state of dissonance, because, look, it's really hard to sit with the reality that you're in partnership with someone who's treating you in a way that's incongruent with how you want to be treated. And as someone who's been there and as someone who's worked with people, you know, there is often this like disbelief of how could this happen to me, right? And to smart. I'm too smart or I know about these dynamics and other people, you know, I would never choose someone, choose someone if you're. Yeah, you're the one who would treat people this way. And I think it's really hard to sit with that sometimes, because often when you are with a partner who is really abusive, they didn't start out that way. So you didn't choose them. Right? It's it's a, it's a slow, degradation of their, proving to you that they're not that way. And all of a sudden you wake up and you're in boiling water and you're like, how did I get here? And there's that. The intermittent conditioning is how you got there, right? And it is intentional. It's part of the abusive strategy, but it's often really hard to spot when it's happening in real time. Yeah. It really the confusion is just like it's nothing. Nothing I would wish on my worst enemy. In all honesty, it's the worst. But I again to the focus needs to just be on like, can I even try? Do I even want to? Trying. And even when you do want to try to try to even map out sort of like an end point where what do you need to be seeing from the other person to keep trying? So I think that, you know, cheated again. Oh, it's a slip up. I've heard men refer to it as a relapse, like I've relapsed. Yeah. And that, that is language that, that that can be. So here's the thing. Here's the thing that's really hard for a lot of retreat partners to sit with, because language like that does feel like, to your point. Oops. When somebody is trying to get containment over out of control behavior, whether they are struggling with compulsive drug use, compulsive porn use compulsive skin picking, anything. Right. We have to understand that difficult emotions are often the catalyst for that compulsive behavior. And so in the treatment that someone is getting, there is often an emphasis on shame reduction, because to feel a ton of shame is an increased risk of relapse, an increasing risk of recidivism, an increased risk of the very behavior that you're trying to contain happening again. So there is a lot of language that is shame reducing. So it's helpful to for folks to think about it as a relapse or a slip. Because also these are inevitable when people are trying to get containment over behaviors that are compulsive. Again, they are not light switches either. These self-protective behaviors developed over time and have been reinforced over and over again, so it is hard to stop them despite people's best efforts, often so. A slip is not something that they want to go down. A shame spiral around. Now that can often sound really flippant and minimizing to a betrayed partner who's like, what do you mean it was a slip? Are you even trying to get control over this? Do you even care about this relationship so much? Is on the line, right? And it feels so hard to watch the person that you are hoping will stop the hurtful behavior exhibit more of that hurtful behavior and then be sort of minimizing around it. But this is a space that feels very tenuous for couples often when they're trying to be in this repair. Yeah, you may be cheated on again if it is compulsive. Frankly, if they're abusive, it's happening again. If they're compulsive, it's possible and or likely to happen again as they try to navigate that. So it's I think it's also something to really again consider. Can I handle this. Right. Because you don't have to. I just want to reiterate that you absolutely don't have to. I'm an advocate for leaving while simultaneously completely understanding that that's spoken from a place of privilege to be able to leave and from a place of clarity after the fact. But when I was in it like leaving, didn't feel like an option. The person that I talk about primarily as sort of my abuser before that person, I was truly serial cheated on and and I was like obsessed with catching the person. It's like I needed the proof. And I got to tell you, I remember the first time I got the proof, I was like, yes, I have proof. You did it. You can't deny it anymore. And then I stayed. And then he did it again, and then I stayed, and then he did again. And then I stayed at five years. And I swear to this day I'm like, oh, Lisa, what the hell? But I there was something in me that was like, I need to help him through it. I need, you know, he's he's young, he's figuring this out. He I wish that I had just left, but I hope I never forget the feeling that I had of but I can't, I just I want to be able to relate to that feeling so that I never make other people feel like there's something wrong with you if you stay when you're cheated on. Totally. Yeah. Look, it is a really difficult decision, and, I, I support the decision that people need to make. And you may make the decision to stay for a period of time and then later decide to leave. You may stay forever. You may leave and then come back like we are all in a process of evaluating what makes the most sense for us in a given moment. And sometimes the idea of being alone or without this person is worse than being with them. For some folks, and there are many reasons why that can be the best choice for them to stay, and also an abusive dynamic. Sometimes leaving isn't a choice because it actually is the riskiest. And the most dangerous moment is when someone is being abused, tries to leave. So there are real ecological threats that some people face, and they've decided that staying is the safest thing for them. So yeah, no, there's no judgment if someone stays or decides to leave. I think we have to be an evaluation of what makes the most sense in any given moment. I completely, completely agree. Thank you so much for being on real Talk with Lisa Sonni Relationships Uncensored, talking about serial cheating. I really appreciate it. And I'll tag you in the caption in the comments that people can find you. But I also want people to check out your book. So to can you just quickly tell us a little bit about your book? Yeah. Of course. Thank you. It's called What Happened to My Sex Life A Sex Therapist Guide to Reclaiming Lost Desire. Connection and Pleasure And it's basically, a synopsis of some of the major themes that I see that really separate people from their desires and talk about things like trauma, burnout, shame, coercion, entitlement. One of my favorite chapters is am I a partner or a parent? And I talk about inequities in domestic labor and emotional labor and partnership and how that can just rob us of desire. Understandably, that was my favorite chapter. I just wanted you to know I didn't. That one. I didn't even put the book down for the I was like, oh, this is you're speaking to me, I love it. Yeah, yeah. Along for many women will relate. Yeah. It is a common trope because, the way that patriarchy sort of sets the heterosexual relationships, it's very common that these inequities exist. So, yeah. And the last section of the book is, what can I do about it? And it walks readers through how to get back in their bodies, how to reconnect with pleasure, and how to communicate about what is your truth around your erotic desires or curiosities, even, Ooh, perfect. Thank you so much for being here, and I'll have you back some other time. Amazing. Thank you so much.