Twisting Scripture The Abuser Who Pretends to Be Godly | Ep. 014

If you've ever been in a relationship with a man who tells you that God hates divorce or weaponizes religion of any kind against you, this episode is for you. And this episode is one that he will not want you to listen to.

This week, I sit down with Holly Tidwell, a former pastor who spent 20 years in an abusive marriage while trying to be the perfect submissive Christian wife. Holly shares her powerful story of growing up in Pentecostal culture, attending Liberty University for biblical studies, and becoming a pastor - all while being conditioned to believe that her value was in her virginity and her role was to submit to male authority. After having four children in three years and experiencing the loss of her first daughter, Holly began questioning everything she'd been taught about God, women's roles, and what true love actually looks like. We explore how organized religion creates a breeding ground for abuse by conditioning women to be submissive, childlike, and financially dependent while teaching them that their reward for suffering will come in heaven. Holly explains how scripture gets weaponized - from "wives submit to your husbands" (while conveniently leaving out the part about mutual submission) to being told that women have a "biological duty" to fulfill their husband's sexual needs every 36 hours. We discuss the devastating impact of being taught not to trust your own thoughts and instincts, the financial and spiritual abuse that runs rampant in religious communities, and why domestic violence rates are equally high among Christians and non-Christians. 

Holly also shares what finally gave her the courage to leave, how she rebuilt her relationship with God outside of organized religion, and what she tells women who feel trapped between their faith and their safety.

Resources Mentioned:

Brené Brown's "The Gifts of Imperfection": https://a.co/d/f1tNvN0 

Connect with Hope With Holly:

TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube: @HopeWithHolly

Website: https://stan.store/HopeWithHolly 

Transcript

0:00

It is this, this concept that men are leaders. Again, if that were natural, you wouldn't need the conditioning. And I also I have way too many clients, And like he led you off a friggin cliff. If you've ever been in a relationship with a man who tells you that God hates divorce or weaponizes religion of any kind against you. This episode is for you. And this episode is one that people not want you to listen to. So today I have Holly with me who I'm going to let her tell you who she is, and a little bit about her, but this could not be a more perfect guest for this episode. We're talking about weaponized religion. Weaponized spirituality. So, Holly, tell us about you. Who are you? Thank you. First of all, Lisa, for having me. I love watching you on social media and you have such great advice. I'm so honored to be here today. Thank you. So, you know, I grew up in, Christian culture, more Pentecostal Assemblies of God churches, which, led me to end up at Liberty University, where I got a degree in biblical studies and became a pastor after that. I was also told by a prophet in my church, the man that I was supposed to marry, and we did everything right. Girl like did not kiss until we got engaged. We didn't have sex until our wedding night. You know, we got married and I tried so hard to submit. I tried so hard to be the Proverbs 31 wife who, you know, did everything and submitted and was kind and forgave and turn the other cheek. And I stayed for 20 years. I stayed for 20 years. Because by the time I realized that it was not a healthy relationship. I have four babies, you know? Yeah, I had four kids in three years, and I thought, oh, my gosh, you know, before that, I did not believe that I could ever get divorced. But by the time I had my children, it changed my whole perspective of God. Once I had kids. All the things that I thought about God before I had children, you know, was taught to me in Bible school and and also, you know, the Bible. And when my first daughter died at birth and I had a miscarriage after and then I have four babies in three years. And that whole traumatic experience really taught me what true, unconditional love was. When I had kids, I was like, wow. This is love. And I really. Right, like, am I a better parent than God? Is like, am I a better parent than how God is described in the Bible at least, or how I've been told who God is because I would never, ever let my daughter, I would never tell her who she had to marry. I would never tell her, that her value was in her virginity. You know, that her, that she had to submit to a man. I would never tell her that I want to raise her to be, have autonomy and be her own strong woman and see what that looks like. So how can this be right? And thus began, like my deconstruction. Not necessarily from God, but from who I thought God was and who I was told to believe God was, what my position was as a woman. You know, because you're you're made to believe that there's God as the head man. And then woman was. And that's really does a mindf*ck on you, as it did on me anyway. It made me not trust my what I what I think maybe not trust my gut, maybe not trust my thoughts. Because a man is above me. God is above him. I have to trust the man in my life, my husband, the pastor, you know, the head pastor. Anyway. And it began my whole deep journey into like finding the truth and what felt like truth and therapy helped tremendously because. Like so many women though, do that deconstruction in therapy, you start to realize, and it's not like you said something really great. They're not deconstructing from God, but maybe from the concept of what you thought it was, or from organized religion, or from the church, but not from God. So you can still believe, not lose your faith I think that people interpret the Bible incorrectly and that gives God a bad reputation. So, unfortunately, we have to all have our own little journey of how we interpret the Bible and what that means to us. However, there's no matter how much the Bible says about what women should do in submission and marriage and divorce and stuff like that, it is never God's heart for his child to be abused. That is never God's heart. Because it couldn't be. Because if I made in the image of God and I have children creation that I created, my heart would never be for them to, be stuck in a relationship where there was abuse. So it just wouldn't be possible. And, I raised my children, with for a long time. To me, autonomy and listening to their gut and, believing that they have a say and to speak up and to say what they mean without saying it mean and to question everything. Question everything. Critical thinking skills, you know, because if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. And if you don't know, like what you believe and what is right and what feels right, then you're going to believe what they tell you. But that is how a lot of churches conditioned women, to believe that they're just a lowly woman. They can't possibly understand the scriptures correctly. You know that, right? That their husband is the leader of the family and that they must submit to what he says. Now, I met so many men and women and couples where the woman is obviously more capable, you know. Right? Yes. Breadwinner. She is smart. She is making good decisions. And I have seen these leader godly husbands that are deacons in the church run their family into financial despair, beat their women. Rape their wives, you know, coerce them and force them into having sex. And we were taught that in, you know, in, women's ministries. I was taught this by women that. Listen, your husband has a biological need, and you need to fulfill that biological need every 36 hours. That. Well. That girl. Wow. Very specific. I hear it like we hear that all the time, right? The coercion that comes with, like, it's your wifely duty. Which my response to that truly is always like, ick, because you're saying that you need it. And so I must give it. It's my body and you want duty. You also want men typically want her to be, you know, into it. Your duty and obligation is not a turn on. Yuck. No, not at all. Certainly, if a man really wants his wife to be free in the bedroom, he needs to create the conditions that make her feel emotional, safe, desirable, and also learn about responsive and, spontaneous sexual desire as well. But women are not obligated to do this, especially in an unsafe environment. But that's what we were taught. It was very much taught in our church that, men are the ones that struggle with impure thoughts with, you know, lust. And it is the woman's responsibility to help him not struggle. It was all it's always the woman's responsibility to be this helpmate and to help their man, not give into temptation, not not want to look at porn, not want to look at other women. And as long as she keeps his, you know, belly full and his balls drained, then he's going to be a happy man, you know. And that is, that is what we were taught. And although ironically the marriage relationship that I was in, he was not interested really. And I was the well you know, so the Scripture says that your body belongs to each other. So, but it did not apply when it was the woman that wanted it. And as a matter of fact, I was told that I had a Jezebel spirit that I was this I was possessed by a demon with sexual immorality, despite the fact that we didn't have sex until we got married. But my desire to have sex made me for some reason I'm demon possessed. But a man's desire. Well, that's that's natural, right? Yes. Of course. Do you? I mean, you must notice. We must all notice. And it's so true that the conditioning that happens within church organized religion, or I should say, some or many. It conditions women to be submissive to be. But if that were natural, you wouldn't need the conditioning. Men are taught that they have impure thoughts, and that I feel like that repression is problematic already. I mean, the autonomy, it's not even about I mean sexual freedom. But I don't just mean like, go sleep with whoever you want, but “Do you!” If it's whatever you want you to, feel free to be who you are, to desire your husband. And now you're a Jezebel because you desire your husband. Which is odd because men want to be desired. Makes no sense to me. Yes, it does feel like it's always the woman's fault. Even if even if your husband is abusing you, then it must be your fault. You must not be submitting. You must not being, fulfilling your wifely duties and it is your job to change that so that he does not abuse you anymore. And that's where the helpmate comes in. You help him to stop abusing you. Yeah, yeah. And if that, you know, and there's scriptures that say, you know, that basically like the righteousness of the wife will bring her husband into like alignment with God. So if you're just righteous enough and agreeable enough and submissive enough by your good works, by your faith, by your prayers, he will come into alignment. And I can attest that that is not the case. You can ask me to. Fast as much as you want, pray as much as you want. Submit as much as you want. It's still not, it's still not going to happen because a lot of men, I think, in the church, first of all, I think they really like the church because it sets them up in a very good system. They're the leaders. No one can question them. They get, despite the fact that I think 75% of volunteers in the church are women, men hold 93% of the leadership position. So they get all of that the microphone, the acknowledgment, the the praise. And they love that. But unfortunately, it also builds their ego and makes them feel untouchable. And they, you know, a lot of them do abuse their wives and women in the congregation as well, because they tell them they use the Bible as a weapon to abuse and to give them permission to abuse women to control. And what some of these men need to control because they are narcissists, some need to control because they're insecure, some need to control because they were raised to believe that that's what they were supposed to do. You know, in the church as well. So unfortunately, they use the scriptures to tell women you have to submit and in time that you use the scriptures to have control over another person. That is abuse. Let's. Just say that plainly. Yes. And I find it very ironic because Jesus came to give us and claimed that we all have free will. Right? And Jesus came to say, you know in Galatians that there is no slave nor free, no male nor female, no Jew nor Gentile like we are all one in Christ, like one is not above the other. Jesus very clearly, surrounded himself with women to be a part of his journey and help him along the way. And unfortunately, a lot of men use the Bible as a way to control other women around them, including their sisters, their mother, like so on and so forth. So the the real question is why, as a woman, did I step? Like that's the money question that everybody wants to know why do women stay in abusive relationships? Why do you stay in the church? I think you don't notice, right? With all that conditioning and I mean, to be fair, step out of the church for a moment. The patriarchy has plenty of conditioning, and I think that there's a lot to be said for how the patriarchy and Christianity and religion in general organized religion ties in to uphold men having power and women being forgiving and loving and help mates and and just the the forgiving part really irks me because no matter what he does, you are to forgive. I have a client who was harmed by her husband physically. I want to get into the details because it's quite graphic, but harmed her physically. And he went. They went to church and the pastor said, oh, did you forgive him? It was the only question. I want to highlight that it was the first question, but it was the only question, not, are you okay? Not do you need anything? Not oh my God, what happened? It was. Did you forgive him? That was the only expectation of her. So sad. Yes. Very sad because, you know, there is scripture that talks about God hating divorce, but I do believe that God hates abuse more than he hates divorce. I do believe that, you know, free will and love and unconditional love and, you know, safety is God's plan. Otherwise, why would I have that inside of me? Why would I desire that? You know, as a, as a creator as well of, of children. So unfortunately, the reason why I stayed was because I was told little things by women in the church, for example. Hey, look, the man might be the head of the household, but you're the neck that turns the head. It was a little manipulative. You know. It is. It's. Yes. And they were like, so you just need to know how to talk to him, to basically manipulate him in a way to get your way. And, and I thought that that was, it definitely was a little bit of an escape route, a little, you know, loop, but also is don't drive me as well. I was also made to believe that, look, your goal, your only job as a woman. And this is really terrible. Your job as a woman is to get married and be fruitful and multiply. That is it. You know, take care of your family. Really makes you a vessel for something, for service. Not to just be and to live and to be an autonomous human being. Have very I just felt like, you know, a pregnant cow on a farm, like just serving that role, you know, and so. But but here's what I would hear. We know that this is, you know, a sidekick role, basically. However, you are a martyr, you know, which is a real big deal in the church. You know, you're a martyr for God. You are sacrificing your basic autonomy for God and for these men, however, your reward in heaven will be worth it, you know? So that's the sales pitch. That's this. That was the sales pitch that I continually got, which is challenging for me. It was always challenging for me because even though I grew up in a Christian church, I grew up, I was raised by a very outspoken, strong willed woman. Thank God, thank goodness. You know, and I also am an outspoken, strong willed woman. And it was a constant struggle to bite my tongue and, you know, not say anything. And to figure out a way that I could say it where my voice can still be heard and, you know as well, but you're conditioned to believe that this is your role and that your reward will be in heaven. And it's okay because you have it. This is just a simple this is, 80 years of eternity. It's nothing, you know, just fall in line, do what they say, and in eternity you will, you know? So it seems like a small price to pay. Is that what I'm hearing? This is just what you have to pay to get to this eternal bliss. So this this concept of God hates divorce. I'm going to read some comments that I have seen on my page, and clients have said to me. That their husbands say to them, and this one is so obvious, right? This is and this kind of leads into like the cherry picking of religion. Sometimes the Bible says you have to submit to me. That is a weapon that I hear constantly, that it's it's just a fact, right? Women must submit to mouth. What's the what's missing in that piece? Why do you think that becomes such a good weapon? Why is it so believable? And what's untrue about it? Well, first of all, it is cherry picking because the Scripture says that wives should submit to their husbands, and immediately after it says, and husbands, just admit to your wife, and that you should submit to one another. So. They we're not. And you know that part, though that part doesn't look good for them. They leave that out on purpose. Because throughout the Bible I will say it does talk all throughout the Old Testament about women being property. And so there is an overwhelming evidence throughout the Bible that women are property and women are beneath men. The New Testament comes around and there's a rebrand, right? Like, well, you know, you submit to one another. Jesus says there's neither male nor female in my mind, like, everybody's equal. And so it is hard for, women to get out from under that and not believe that, especially in conjunction with the patriarchy, and that it's only been 50 years since we've been able to be financially and economically free. So there's a lot of old beliefs still being passed down. And, and women being told, you know, they're not smart enough to lead, you know, they just must submit. They must follow through and and they must be this helpmate for their partner. Unfortunately, it is a breeding ground for abuse. And I the interesting thing, you know, when I was in church and married, I really only ever knew about physical abuse. I had no idea about financial abuse. And that happens very much in the church. The man is a leader. He's in charge of the money. When I worked, I had to give my paycheck to my husband. Oh wow. He controlled our money and he would give me a small allowance each week even after we had children. So there is financial abuse. There, of course, is spiritual abuse, which I had never heard of before, where our husbands or men in our life use scriptures to twist and make us to control us. And that is abuse. Because abuse, obviously anytime somebody tries to control, manipulate or neglect you, there's emotional abuse. You know, where they gaslight you and use Scripture again as a weapon. God says you have to submit to me. God says, you have to give your body to me. God says that I'm the leader of the household. Do what I say. Don't question me. And that's emotional abuse. You know, there's mental abuse as well. And I didn't know any of that because the church doesn't did not teach that what I was teaching, the therapy that I received in church, that I got trained in, that I taught others, embarrassingly enough, was all about breaking generational curses. That was the extent of the therapy that I received in church. And it just it does not. The church has really failed people in a mental health awareness relationship dynamics, relationship skills and equality among men and women. Unfortunately, I know there are pastors now that are really trying to change that. And I am friends with some, and I and I appreciate that and all that they're doing. But unfortunately, the church has become a breeding ground for men who need authority and have control. and that is abusive men. Yeah, it's a breeding ground for that. It is. And conjunction with women being raised to believe that their value is in, to remain childlike like your value is in your virginity. Number one, you need to be modest and hide your womanly curves. You need to, submit to this authority figure your parent. You need to be independent, financially dependent, not work. Stay home and take care of your husband. Everything is about being like this child so the man feels like the leader, the head of the household, you know, to almost force him to step up to the plate and you say, don't. What I find so crazy about this, like. Men. It is this, this concept that men are leaders. Again, if that were natural, you wouldn't need the conditioning. And I also I have way too many clients, arguably all, at least certainly the religious ones who were led by their Christian husband, or religious husband of whatever faith. And like he led you off a friggin cliff. The bankruptcies, the unemployment, the sexual coercion, the abuse. Where are you taking us, man? It's not. They're not leaders. Naturally. I'm not saying no. Men are leaders. No more than I'm saying women are natural leaders. But I think women are better leaders than men. I actually genuinely believe that. You want to talk about what's natural. It's the even in the context of what you said with the women or think that turns the head, you're leading it. If you're turning it, you're leading it. Yeah. And if we're going to talk about leadership and Christ as the example of leadership, and according to the Bible and who Jesus was a leader is to serve, which is why Jesus, served his community and, you know, defended the marginalized people and washed the feet of his disciples. He was a servant. That's what a leader supposed to be. But unfortunately, women are conditioned from a young age that their their role is different, that they can't be a leader You know, that they must be a follower and and that there's beauty and you know, that there's, that they need to be humbled. And interestingly enough, you know, I saw Ted talk by Elizabeth Gilbert who said, you know, religion got it wrong for men and women, religion teaches us all to die to our ego. But that's actually for men. Men need to die to their ego. Women to become more spiritual need to form an ego. Oh yes. I thought that was brilliant. Like, yeah, duality looks different for men and women because men are born into the world like, hey, you're the king. So they actually need to reduce their ego. Women are born into the world. You're the servant, so they need to increase it. So spirituality looks different for each of us because of our society conditioning. And unfortunately, when women are in these relationships and experiencing all of this abuse and they go to their pastors, they're not getting the help that they need, it's getting covered up. I'm surprised to look at the statistics and find out that domestic violence is equally rampant among Christians as non-Christian. Yeah, which is ironic because, you know, obviously, Christianity, Jesus teaches kindness, patience, compassion, love. You know what? What is love, you know, and to define that, there was just as much abuse in Christian and Christian churches and religion. And obviously we know about the sexual abuse and the children being abused and stuff like that. The abuse is running rampant and being a Christian isn’t it making you less abusive. And as a matter of fact, the studies show that women stay more in the abuse in Christian. When the Christian denominations and religion because they are asked to forgive by turning the other cheek, you know, and yeah, it's just perpetuating this abuse and keeping her there, traumatizing her and destroying her nervous system and making her responses be, you know, freeze mode or fawn mode. So many Christian women are forming. I see that with my clients. You're so the fawning is unbelievable. And if you think about it, you've described the way that we are conditioned to do that in Christianity in the sense of like be the helpmate, help him Work hard at this. So, you know, make sure is dinner's ready on time. Make sure that you are having sex with him often enough. But what I find so interesting about, especially about the sex piece, is that the women who are having whatever amount of sex the man is asking for, those women are still being abused and cheated on. And yeah, not all, but like it actually doesn't prevent you from doing it. Even in the cases where maybe a woman is not being abused and she's doing it when she doesn't want to. That's kind of an oxymoron, because if you don't want to and you're doing it, that means you don't have the freedom to say no, which means you are being abused. You are sexual coercion is horrendous. And even the there's a book I hate, I've done an episode on this book, The Five Love Languages. I think it should be burned. It is the worst book in the world. I hate it, it is. It is such a weapon. I know we could go on and on about that book, but all of this is religion. You know, you're talking about the way and women want their faith. The women that I talked to that are Christian, that are particularly the ones that are really struggling with like, but God says all I can say is there's so much shame that I see in choosing to leave and how that will impact your relationship with God. And we're not even concerned about ourselves, our safety, our happiness. But you're really kind of layering this piece in with me that this life is, let's call it 80 years. It's the afterlife. It's the eternity that you're working for. So it feels worth it. Starting to make sense to me with that, with that conditioning that I wish didn't exist. But when you're, let's say, going against God, tell me what that feels like. To think what feels like against God or divorce, which is against God. What does that feel like as a Christian woman? To even be faced with that decision? A lot of anxiety, so much density. You know, usually anxiety stems from uncertainty. And so generally there's this cognitive dissonance that's happening inside of you. Like I know that I should not like this feels bad. This feels wrong. I would never want my daughter to be in a relationship like this. But on the other hand, you know, the Bible says this I've been taught this. So what do you know? There's this huge anxiety of what do I choose? What's the right thing to do? And so what I, had to decide for myself was. there's a scripture in the book of Romans that says God has written his word on our heart, and that was written before the Bible was compiled. So I trust that I trust what's written on my heart. And what my heart said, especially after having children, was, oh, that that wasn’t love. No, no, this is love. Love is caring and being there. And safety. Love is safety, right? And if I'm not experiencing safety in this relationship, God would never want that. And it's it's so unfortunate that we are, you know, being told all these different messages from these pastors and leaders in our church that benefit him, by the way, the messages always benefit them. Yeah. It's so unfortunate that we're told these messages because it really does brainwash you. There's there's literal brainwashing that's happening for you to believe, like, well, this is my role. Like, this is what I'm supposed to do. And so what we have to do is rewire our brain and Deacon's truck. All the belief that we had about who we thought God was and reconstruct them based on, like, what's in your heart? though, What feels right, you know, how would you treat your kids? What would you do with your kids? How do you want your kids to live? And putting it into that perspective really helped me understand God's heart more and put more weight in that than what the pastors are saying, you know? Yeah, trusting yourself is hard. it is when you have been told your whole life not to trust yourself. And it is a long journey and it doesn't happen overnight, that's for sure. Generally, you have to experience something groundbreaking and traumatic and difficult to actually wake up and be like, okay, let me reassess all of this, but you can't do it. and now that there's such a community, an online community of women talking about it and resources out there, you can do it. And you can find churches that are safe places. That was just the church that you were in was just a misalignment that wasn't for you, you know, and it's okay to walk away from that. Did I get letters and emails and people calling me telling me that I'm sinning, that, you know, God does not approve of my life and what I'm doing actually, lately the community turned against me, you know, and that's really hard I think for women were such community builders. And so we've spent all these years building this community, building this community with people, with our family, with God, and forming these traditions and beliefs and rituals. So to walk away from that, it's death. There's grief. It is unbearable. And to do it alone. It's like faced with a an upheaval of your life. When I think about the people that say, just leave or you picture someone who one would think you have the ability to leave like you have the finances, let's say, because I know finances is a huge problem, but let's say you have the finances to leave, then you should leave. It's the women who don't have money that should that we understand to a degree, we probably still don't. But meanwhile what you're asking is divorce your husband, burn in hell for all of eternity. Be a sinner, give up your church, your entire social community, maybe your kids, friends, everything. It's massive what people are asking women to just just leave in the face of all of that. Yeah, yeah. All you have to do, Holly, is just flip your whole life upside down easy. Without any guidance, without any handbook, without anybody there, you know? Because generally, if you're as a devoted Christian, like I was, you were not unequally yoked. So you did not surround yourself with any non-Christian. So you had nobody. Fortunately, I went to therapy and thus. And listen, that was, not a good thing to do. You know, in the church, we were not supposed to go to secular people for which means non-religious, non-Christian people for guidance. And so when I did that, one of the first books that I found that I read was Brené Brown book, The Gifts of Imperfection that changed my life because I am a recovering perfectionist. Growing up as a Christian woman, like I had to be perfect, right? I needed to God to think that I'm amazing and be happy with me. For my husband to think I'm amazing. There was a lot of performative behavior in order to appear to everyone that you know, I am this great Christian. And look, it was happening behind the scenes too. I was getting up every morning and having my devotions and fasting and praying and, witnessing to people. And I had a lot of leadership positions in the church, and I really did sacrifice my life for God. But you become a perfectionist. There is nobody busier than a Christian wife and mother who is raising her children, many children generally, by the way, because be fruitful and multiply homeschooling them from home so that they don't have secular influence. Volunteering at the church, serving all the people in the church, helping the people and, you know, obeying the leadership and stuff and also staying physically fit and beautiful so that your husband desires you and giving him the sex that he wants and never having a mental breakdown or mental health issues, because that means you're not having faith in God. And it's the standard for women to live up to you. They will experience crazy burnout. And they do in the end. There's not a lot of support for them, unfortunately, and eventually. Devastating. Hopefully it is devastating. And, and, and I wish I could create a church for people who left the church, you know. Yeah, but. That would be before I know, like, where do they go? Yeah, I'm sure it would. I, I think, you know women who are leaving this marriage with someone who's abusive or considering leaving someone who's abusive when you are of faith and you feel so strongly about it. I see a lot of women almost feeling like they have to choose between their faith and their husband, or they feel like they're defying something again, like burning in hell, sinning. That's so hard to face. What do you say to those women that are being abused physically, emotionally, financially, sexually who are just starting to realize that that's what this is? And also feeling faced with, like, what do I do? I can't leave because of my religion. What would you say to her? I would say to her, what do you believe about God? Do you believe that God loves you? Do you believe that God is love? Do you believe that he's compassion and he wants safety for you? Because if you believe that about God, then he would want you to leave this abusive marriage. The covenant is null and void. The moment the man is abusive, the covenant is gone. He did not fulfill his duty in the covenant. It has already been broken. So you have every right to leave. God is love. God wants you to have love and especially love for yourself. And the highest, form of self-love is giving yourself safety. So honor God by loving yourself enough to get to safety. sometimes that works. But most of the time, the thing that actually impacts women the most is when I say, imagine this is your daughter. What would you tell your daughter to do in this situation? Because you are a loving creator like God, so that love from God runs through you to your child. What would you tell them? And of course they would tell them, leave like this is I would not want this for my daughter. Do you want this to continue through the generations or Do you really believe God gives you free will? Because if you believe, God gives you free will. And if you believe that God loves you and God wants your safety, you know, then you must believe it's okay to get to safety. That seems so. Logical. It yes, however, and that still takes months, if not years for women to grasp that. Because, you know, when you're raised in the church, to believe that your role is to just be a help me to have children, to support your husband, that, you know, your godliness will save his soul as well. It is that huge cognitive dissonance of what do I do? There's a lot to unravel, you know? And so we just have to keep giving that message that God is love. God wants your safety. What would Jesus do in that moment if Jesus walked up and saw the way that your husband has talked to you when he has told the men to love your wives like I have loved the church, I had sacrificed my life for the church I have served, the church I have protected, the church, the people. If Jesus walked up and saw how your husband treated you, he would be flipping tables, you know? Yeah, I love that. And I also agree, I what would Jesus do? He would punch your husband. Yes, he would in a heartbeat. Yeah, yes. For sure. I mean, look at the woman at the well who they all said was this adulterous woman. You know, Jesus protected her. He basically told the men their sins and said, he is who is without sin. Cast the first stone at this woman you know, in your name. They all walked away like he protested her. Yeah, and God wants to protect us. We are his daughters, his beautiful, soulful, spiritual, nurturing, loving girls, you know. And God does not want, abuse. He would never tolerate it. Never in a million years. But unfortunately, where the disconnect comes in is, I think, a lot of women again, which is why I'm so happy that you talk so much about abuse. Don't understand what abuse looks like. Yeah, they they think that this is. Mean or he's traumatized or upset or somehow, like, I think we buy into the justification that men use to be abusive. Like, I wouldn't have had to yell at you if you had been submissive if you. And that it makes me mental. I think the deconstruction is so important and people can deconstruct from a lot of their beliefs and not let go of God, because I know. Yeah, I mean, if you want to, by all means. But I think that many women most in fact, want to hold on to their faith but just don't want to be hurt and abused. So I give you permission. Holly gives you permission. God and Jesus give you permission to leave abuse. That is the key message here. You can decide this. You have free will. You have autonomy. You don't have to stay in something that's hurting you. Yes, unfortunately, the pastors tell them to turn the other cheek and to forgive. And they are weaponizing scripture to keep women in these marriages and in the community of the church, because the churches really benefit from all the women unpaid labor. However, is that God's heart? We have to we we have to even test Scripture against God's heart. You know it. Would a loving God do that? Did he really hate you to come to this earth and stay, you know, shackle in this relationship with this man that just perpetually abuses you when God loves you? No. Absolutely not. No way. So yeah, but. But the church doesn't want a lot of times these abusive, controlling churches, they don't want to teach, you know, the critical thinking skills for people to think like that. And they just doesn't find obedience. Yeah. Which reminds me of an abusive husband, in all honesty, right? That blind loyalty, blind obedience. You've highlighted the benefits so well like this benefits the church, this benefits men, this benefits the patriarchy. We need to dismantle these beliefs and find a way to have faith in a way that's good for everybody, not just men. So on that note, I love that you were here with me today talking about this. You were so perfect to be here, talking about this with everybody. And where can people find you online? So Hope with Holly is on, TikTok, Facebook, Instagram and YouTube and people, I have some lovely documents that they can download to help them on their journey, as well. And they can book calls with me because I truly want to help women find safety. I want women to feel safe. That is the most important thing, and that is why I do this platform in my spare time. You know, because I want women to have what I didn't have. and I want women to trust themselves and know that they are just as divine as their husband. They have just as much wisdom as their husband, and that they are no less than anybody else. And, you know, I think women are the natural leaders and protectors. And so part of that is protecting yourself, your heart, your children, and breaking these generational patterns so that, you know, we can leave a legacy for our kids to be healthier, stronger women. I love it. Well, I'll link your your screen names and everything in the caption and those worksheets. I'll put everything in the caption so people can find you. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you Lisa, I love you so much. Keep up the good work. Thank you.