The Most Addictive Relationship Pattern In The World | S2E02

Dr. Nadine Macaluso, formerly Belfort is a British-born American psychotherapist, author, internet personality, and former model. She was the second wife of the stockbroker and financial criminal Jordan Belfort, to whom she was married from 1991 to 2005. She is a narcissistic abuse and trauma bond expert.

Abuse doesn’t always look like shouting, bruises, or threats. Sometimes it looks like the love story everyone else envies—grand gestures, tenderness, and promises of forever. That’s what makes trauma bonds so dangerous: the cycle of cruelty and kindness that keeps you hooked and questioning yourself. Dr. Nadine knows this cycle all too well. She fell hard for someone the world admired, only to discover she was trapped in an addictive pattern of control, fear, and confusion. Together we unpack why victims don’t “just leave,” how coercive control strips away free will, and why the moments that felt like love were part of the manipulation.

Resources mentioned: 

Run Like Hell by Dr. Nadine Macaluso (book)

Transcript

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No. Victims don't have free will because that's exactly what the perpetrator, pathological lover, wants to take away from you is free will, right? They want to take away your autonomy, your agency and your choice. So I want to rip open this illusion of abusive relationships, right? Because people think that abusive relationships are so obvious and women should leave and that, you know, he's hitting you or yelling at you, you might have bruises, but the truth is, is that a lot of abusive relationships actually look like romance. And there's a lot of kindness in these abusive relationships. And it's a story or a love story that people, even on the outside, sometimes envy. And that is really hard for people to understand that these relationships can be both amazing from the outside and actually really dangerous on the inside. And nobody knows this better than my guest today who experienced, you know, this on the world stage, really. But Doctor Nae I'm so happy to have you here, and I would love for you to just tell us a little bit about yourself. Yeah. So that what you said in the beginning is so true, right? These relationships have extreme mixtures of kindness and cruelty. And I did experience that. At 22 years old, I met my ex-husband, Jordan Belfort, the wolf of Wall Street. And at 23, I married him. It was fast and furious, and unbeknownst to me, we entered into the quintessential trauma bond. Yep. And you don't know it. And I like to be. I wish people could understand, first of all, that a trauma bond exists because this really is the most addictive relationship pattern in the world. And people from the outside, if they do ever come to realize that it's abuse. It's like, well, hey, Dean, why didn't you just leave? So. Right. Yeah, I. Wish that was that easy. Right? It's not that easy. And the thing is that it starts with hope and promises of love. And you feel like you've met a unicorn, like you've met your soulmate. And it's really the most, euphoric high that I think that we can experience as humans on the planet without doing drugs right about it. Feels like a drug. Yeah, in taking a substance, you know. So, yeah, you know, nobody comes into a trauma bond and somebody shows up on the first date abusing that, and coercively controlling them. They present their best selves. And that's the mask that we fall in love with. Or that's the mask I fell in love with. Yeah. Well, you know, you mentioned, like, hope and kindness and all these things in the beginning of the relationship in your book, in chapter three of Run Like Hell, you talk about the two conditions that have to be happening in order for a trauma one to form. Can you talk a little bit about that? Like what don't people know? What are they not getting? Yeah. So there has to be two conditions for a trauma bond to exist, which what is a trauma bond. It's a toxic dysfunctional relationship between two emotionally attached individuals. You're not going to have a trauma bond with the barista at Starbucks, right? You have to be emotionally attached to this person. Now, what makes it different than a normal, toxic relationship is that one of the partners, the past logical one, wants power in control over their lover, right? That shouldn't happen in love. And the conditions are a power imbalance and the power imbalances. Interesting because with me and my ex we started off as equals. I thought, right, but then slowly over time, due to his dominating, intimidating, threatening ways, I experience a lot of fear. So we gain power that way. Just the fact that I loved him, he had power over me and of course he had a lot more resources and I came to depend on those resources. It's not just that somebody has more resources. So that I became too depends on them. And so that's the first part, is the power imbalance. He had more power than me in the relationship. And the second one is intermittent reinforcement, which as you mentioned earlier, is the most addictive behavioral pattern, right, in psychology. And initially you fall in love with Romeo. That's the person who's generous, kind, helpful, loving, adoring, tends are everything you've ever wished for. But then over time, his mask falls and I say, in comes Dirty John. Oh yeah. And that's where the betrayal, the cruelty, the control, the rage, the gaslighting happens. And so those two experiences of extreme cruelty and kindness are what actually creates the bond. Yeah, that it's so important that people understand that there's a pattern. And I think what what I see in the comment sections so often, and it's so aggravating, is that people think, well, okay, so fine. He was nice and then he switched. Now he's abusive. So why didn't you just leave? Like, no matter what it comes back to why you stayed. But what don't people know about that switch? The mask falls. But what else is going on in your mind? Yeah. So. So, you know, for me, when I was in my trauma bond, like, I didn't understand all this, right? And so, you know, I could talk about, you know, what happened for me personally was that I was so in love with him. And I think I really believed I could fix him. Right. And because I'm a determined individual, hence why I have my Ph.D.. Right, which is a great quality and as a person. But I was like, I can fix him. I can love him out of this. Our love is going to conquer it all. And that just wasn't the truth. If only. Yeah, I wish I conquered all. Yeah, I'm you know. And sometimes love just isn't enough. And first of all, it's not even really love. But clinically we know that because of those two, masks, we get severe cognitive dissonance, which is the glue, which is the mental confusion that you feel, never knowing is a Dirty John or Romeo. Is it me or is it him? Am I crazy? Is he crazy, or is the relationship good or bad? And cognitive dissonance? It's the confusion that you feel. And because this pathological person is always changing the masks, you never get to lands on an answer. That's it's I if I could teach people one thing. And this is why, frankly, I'm so passionate about talking about trauma bonds and teaching trauma bonds because people think like so you're addicted to a person. You're not. It's not the person really that you're addicted to. It's the cycle and there's all these chemicals going on. But if people could understand more, I think what the victim is actually going through and that they're oscillating between Mr. Nice Guy and kind of the worst guy in the world, but it's so inconsistent. And I feel like if if you could somehow know that, like, every Friday, he was going to be horrible, you could brace yourself. You could you wouldn't be addicted. It's the intermittent part of this that makes us so like unsure, unclear. And then I think culturally, you know, you have society around you saying things like, maybe he's just, a drug addict, maybe he's just angry. Maybe this is just how men are. What do you think you're hearing from people? What were you experiencing from the world around you that led you to believe that it wasn't so bad? Yeah, well, for me, first of all, Jordan was King Midas, right? He had so much money, so much power. Everybody kissed his ass. So even when he acted inappropriate to me and abusive to me in front of our friends, which he did numerous times. Whenever I would confront him about his drug addiction, he, you know, he would curse me out and filet me in front of friends. And they just looked the other way because, you know, they were living off of him. Right? So I think there's that whole greed is good mentality that I was really living with. And, you know, also, I feared him tremendously. I feel like once I was in this trauma bonds that if I left him, he would harm me, like, try to take my kids away. I mean, this this was, you know, later on. But I definitely really did fear him that he would do something to me afterwards. And for Jordan, his drug addiction was so front and center. So he had all the behaviors of the rage and the gaslighting and the betraying and the jealousy and the possessiveness and the micromanaging and the control. Right. But that was took second stage to his drug addiction. So I was so focused on if I fix his drug addiction, we're going to be home free. Yeah. Oh my God, I relate to that so much. My situation is so different than yours. Like what I know of your story, what we all know of your story because there is a movie, even though the inaccuracies I realize, but yours was, you know, so much more overt and and I don't mean that you should have known, trust me. Because despite it being overt, I don't think we recognize it. Mine was very covert, and I didn't know about the drug addiction until what I sort of now call like close towards the end. I knew there were some drugs, but I didn't realize how much. But once I realized it's drugs, I actually felt relief. I was like, oh my God, that's so great. It's just a blow addiction. Perfect. All we need to do is get him help. Right and right. Oh my God, it didn't even make sense. When I look back at it, I'm like, the drugs don't cause abuse. so I don't really know why I thought that. Other than the hope that this was something that I could fix, I hope so badly that I could cure his drug addiction. And then, poof, it would all go back to the way it was in the beginning. And it's not how it works. It's not how it works. And for me, Jordan did get sober, but it was a whole very dramatic experience where I said to me, if you don't get sober, I'm going to leave you. And that's when he took my clothing and jewelry and lit them on fire in the fireplace and ended up kicking me down the stairs. It was very dramatic. Now, he did get sober. But by that point. So he went to rehab for 30 days, and then he came back to me. But by then the kids, because we were the whole reason he was getting sober. So we had to be there. Right. And so being the dutiful responsible person I was like okay, even though you kicked me down the stairs, here I am, I'm waiting for you because you're sober now. And what were his behaviors. Less extreme for sure. But they were still there. Yeah. I find it so fascinating actually, how they can kind of control when they're showing these behaviors. To me, when people are like, oh, he just lost control. I think it's the most controlled thing in the world really. They know exactly when to turn it on, when to turn it off. And they're mostly abusive behind closed doors. But not always. I do like it. Mine was also I don’t know if abusive was the right word, but he was a little bit rude or mean in front of other people sometimes, but not enough for people to realize or be able to label it as a cuz. At least not for me. And I see that so often with women is like the overt ones. You can't people don't make. And I think that that honestly can even be trickier, right? Because mine was so blatant, that it was like, again, there was no question that he was abusive and an addict and rageful. But again, when I was in my trauma band, nobody was talking about this. So I had no terms. I had no where to go. It's just that inside I knew it was wrong. And when he came back from rehab and he was better, of course, because the only way was up, I mean, from that behavior, but I had fallen out of love because after so much coercion and abuse and betrayal and to see I was I had fallen out of love. And another reason I had fallen out of love, because six months after he had come back from rehab, we were having sushi and I picture this like it's yesterday and it's a long time ago. And I said, you know, when you when you were an addict and everything that you did to me, I'm really hurt me. And he was like, it wasn't that bad. And that was it. My heart closed and I didn't know the word callousness. I didn't know it, but now I know it. And I just remember thinking to myself, what? And so it was the abuse with the lack of remorse, because then we never could really reconcile and have an actual repair of the relationship. And then he got arrested six months later and I was like bye bye. Oh thank goodness. It's a relief at that point. You know I always say this I am so lucky that he got arrested. I don't know how or when I would have gotten out and I would have experienced so much post separation abuse, I'm sure. But he was a witness for the FBI. So he had an ankle bracelet on and he was the FBI's problem now. And you know, I love it when people on social media, it's like you left him because you lost all his money. You know, only the guy's right. And I'm like, no, he was emotionally verbally abusive to me for eight years and kicked me down the stairs. That's why. Because I knew I was safe. Right? I know you just took him. I actually get told a lot that I, left because, like, the money was gone or. I'm like, what money? Because mine isn't famous and mine had no money, so I don't know what you're talking about. That's not why I left. And actually, this is like the worst joke in the world. You got kicked down the stairs. I was thrown up the stairs. So my stairs, I don't know, for. Stairs are a thing. Yeah, it's a thing. It's a very, aggressive way to tax aggressive. Yeah, but the guy playing. Yeah, he was actually holding my daughter and kicked me in my solar plexus. And I mean, not going to broken my neck. Right. That's. You could have died. I could have. I could have died. I mean, just being thrown up a staircase. I was also strangled. There were so many other things. But I find it so interesting when people are like, if you were afraid, you should leave. Yes, dude. Afraid is why we stay sometimes. Because what happens if you try to leave? I remember saying to mine, you could have killed me. And he was like, oh, please, come on. If I wanted to kill you, you'd know. And that didn't scare me at the time. I was like, oh my God, that's right. He didn't try to kill me. Oh my God mean, he did. And we know it's like a real precursor to femicide. Right. And, you know, it's odd. I know that I knew that then I understood I don't know if I knew the statistical numbers, but I confidently knew that it's the biggest indicator of, yeah, being killed. However, he didn't mean it. Right. It was it was just this one thing. It was the first time we actually went from emotional abuse to strangulation in like one argument that was shot only. So not even the biggest argument. So I was unprepared. It wasn't like a an escalation that went for us, you know, punching walls to pushing me, to hitting me, to strangulation. I was just nothing to the worst in the blink of an eye. And to me, that made me go. He didn't mean it, and there was no remorse, but he didn't know, and he was sorry. He didn't apologize, but he was sorry. I apologize for him. You know, in my own mind. Yeah, I think that my ex, he really did apologize. Like, right afterwards. but the I'm sorry I don't get the sense was meaningful because when I really I think he was doing that because that's what you should do. Maybe there was a part of him that was sorry, but when I really confronted him about it and wanted to have a good, healthy conversation, right. That was, you know, no remorse. And we know they're not capable of remorse, empathy or compassion. and that's very real. And I do believe that what separates us from them is motivation. Yes. That's huge. A lot of women react to abuse. And I know it's often called reactive abuse. I don't like that personally. Attractive response, whatever you want to call it. But we react badly. Do you abuse? I don't know what reacting well would be other than leaving, I suppose. But you react badly and then it's like, see, look, your behavior is just as bad or we're both abusive, we're both toxic. What's your take on that framework of how victims see themselves? Yeah. Well, you know, I think that what happens is, first of all, you know, the abuser blames us for everything, right? So we have that level of blame and then we do behave in ways that we would never behave. Right? I mean, and that's that's the second level of cognitive dissonance is cognitive dissonance about ourselves. I mean, I've responded in ways that I can't imagine the way I responded, but I was so outraged by his behavior. And I am from Brooklyn, and I'm not a wallflower. Right. So but it didn't matter because I was no match for him. And I agree with you. I don't think it's reactive abuse. I think it's just a normal reaction to someone manipulating you, gaslighting you, abusing you, raging at you, lying to you. Some points. You're human, you're going to snap. And honestly, I think sometimes they want us to snap. I mean that there's that term provoking record that never happens for me. They weren't cell phones back then. But I think after a certain point of time, you know, I just was like, enough. Yeah. I can't take it anymore. It just. Yeah, I completely the first thing that I ever did to him was I threw water on him. And. He was recording me, and I remember him saying, like, I'm going to get the kids taken away from you because of this. I have video proof that you're abusive. That's not video anything other than a pissed off woman. First of all. Right. It actually wouldn't show abusive ness on anyone's side because it's water. But the fact that I was recorded the fact that he was like immediately went to, I'm going to use this against you. I was living in a state of just constant outrage. I would say the last kind of year. And then, yeah, I once went to our place of business and smashed glasses because I like cups, because I was so angry. Yeah, that I found out that he was cheating and that his mistress was in our place of business. So I just, I was fuming that I hit him with a chair once. I whacked him on the chest with a cucumber. Once when I was unpacking the groceries. Like. And I know it sounds like, oh, look, she's the abusive one. Prior to that, I was dragged out of bed by my feet, strangled, thrown up a staircase, had my head smashed into the kitchen sink, all of these things and happening in front of my kids. And, you know, you could argue I was choosing to stay, but victims have free will. But it doesn't feel like it. Right? Did you feel like you could just No. Victims don't have free will because that's exactly what the perpetrator, pathological lover, wants to take away from you is free will, right? They want to take away your autonomy, your agency and your choice. So slowly, over time. through the systematic pattern of coercive control. They are taking away your free will, your independence, your freedom. because they want to have power and control over you. So I and I don't think you realize as it's happening, you know, it's happening as it happens because I'm a collaborative, cooperative person. So I'm like, okay, I can give in then, okay, I can do just that. I can be flexible here. But then before you know it, you know, it's one of the symptoms of a trauma bond. You've lost your sense of self. You don't trust yourself. You have self-doubt. So all of those things really, affect your sense of agency and autonomy. I'm so glad that you said that. I've heard so many experts. I don't even want to air. Quote, actual experts say that victims have free will. It just doesn't feel like it. Or it's it's hard. I didn't feel like I had free will. So to actually hear a clinician say, no, no, I'm like, that's what I've been saying all this time. We don't I never felt like that. He would say to me, go, you don't want to be here, leave. But then you go to leave and it's, I can't believe you're leaving me. You're going to abandon me just like everybody else. And guilt can't do. What I do. That's why. That's why, you know, this sort of abuse is. It's that's it's invisible chains. And there's so many strands that are coming at you that are invisible that nobody else sees. And so I think unless you really lived in this experience, you unless you've had an embodied experience of it. And if you haven't, thank God you haven't. It's it can be very hard to understand. And I and I and I get that. Me too. Honestly, I think it's it's hard to describe to people, you know, I mean, the definition, it's an unhealthy attachment. It exists like you can abuse and positive intermittent reinforcement have to coexist. I get that. But the feeling when you're in it, I have so many clients and I relate to this that tell me it feels like the thought of leaving you're going to die like you cannot live without this person, even though you probably don't want to be with them. It's like you can't stand the sight of their face, but if they leave the room, you're like, wait, no. So there's this real like hot, cold, push pull love, hate feeling in this relationship. And I think that makes women feel bad, right? Like, oh, I feel so guilty for hating him. Sometimes he doesn't feel guilty for abusing you. Sometimes. No. Why do we feel guilty? Yeah. I mean, I think at the end I didn't feel guilty anymore. I think, I just was, I had just had it. And I felt so entrapped because it is very similar to a cult where you're groomed, you're indoctrinated, and then you are entrapped in this relationship. And there was a lot of mind control. Right? They want to infiltrate your mind. But I think what happened for me over time was that, again, because his abuse was so overt and I knew inside of myself that I wasn't perfect, but I knew I was a good wife, you know, I was a good, loyal, loving person because I had tons of friends. I have tons of family, right, that I get along with. And so I think over time I would I remember he would take a he would take a helicopter from our Southampton house to, to, play golf. And I would pray his helicopter would crack out because that's how entrapped I felt, because I was like, that's the only way I can get out is if he's not here. I completely get that. I read somewhere yesterday, actually, about women wishing that their husbands would just disappear. And I don't think they're plotting acts of violence, but just like I just wish. Take them something else could take him. Yeah. Like not I not even saying I wish for it to be painful or bad. Just. Just in your sleep. Just quietly. Yeah. Anything that would make him just go away. Although as I felt I was, like also, please never leave. And I am convinced like he left me I didn't leave. And I think that's interesting because a lot of people see my content and they assume like, oh, you're so strong, you left. I don't know if strong is the word because it means you're weak if you didn't leave. And that's not I don't like those labels, but I am so grateful. I'm so grateful that he left. It made things so much easier. We still spoke after. We were still trying to work things out, but if he hadn't left me, I don't know, I think I'd be dead. I'm pretty convinced that I would be dead because I didn't see it, I did. I still didn't see that it was abuse. Only one person, coincidentally a therapist, because in my experience, most therapists don't see that it's cracks and and I get that. But I was so grateful that mine did. But even when she said the word, I was sort of like, she doesn't understand. That's not what this is. This is, you know, and no, she absolutely understood exactly what was happening and helped me see things so much more clearly. And I think that some of the deeper work in getting out of trauma bonds, which is really where it's so hard because you're resolving cognitive dissonance, you're trying to detach, you're trying to see them, see them differently, trying to see everything for what it really is. Remove the confusion, remove the guilt. But then you have to shift everything internally and be like, what got me here? Not from a place of judgment, of course. Just curiosity. But You said something earlier about this sort of. They they know that they can push you just a little bit. And, you know, you're a nice person and you are a good wife and you would compromise just this one thing. Yeah. They do that in the beginning of the relationship to figure out what kind of person you are, if you're empathetic, if you'll push your boundaries, if you move that needle and then they know that you're a fabulous victim. They know that. They know that. And I think that, you know, unfortunately for me, my therapist then talked to me about it. I know that I went to therapy once a week for eight years. When I was married to him. Oh, yeah. But it was a different time and Psychoeducation wasn't really used. And I think, you know, we just thought of, like, cluster B personality disorders in a very clinical way. And I just, you know, she really didn't talk to me about it. But what I can offer to people today is that to dissolve the cognitive dissonance, which is the glue. Right? You have to realize you're not in love with two people. You are in love with one predatory, pathological, manipulative person. And you have to start to keep telling yourself that, to start to dissolve this cognitive dissonance, because you have two different sets of feelings, two different relational experiences. Right? And I always say when I work with women, I say, I'm going to say something really painful. I'm like, I brace yourself. That Romeo was manipulation. And then like, no, I'm like, it was that that's the only way. Yeah. You got that's one of the ways to get yourself out. Yeah. Rip that Band-Aid off and look at that wound right there. Face it and realize that it wasn't real. That is big for people to face. I actually find that to be probably one of the biggest things when I tell clients like it was a lie, it's like it almost can't breathe. It's so heavy. Do you believe that it was all a lie? What is that there? There's no good side to them. You know, I do believe that the extreme love bombing I experienced, the kindness that I experienced at times was manipulation. I do, I don't know if it was all a lie. I think when you fall in love with a pathological person, you both get into this like fantasy land. This fantasy world, and, you're in this bubble, but it's not, so it's not real. So I don't know that it's a lie, but I know it was real. Yeah, I know something about the fantasy. Yeah. Yeah, the word lie. I think maybe that's heavy, and I. I mean, people ask me all the time, is it on purpose? Do they know what they're doing? I think what people want to know is, are they waking up every day, like, how can I jab you and hurt you? Yeah, some are doing that. But I think for the most part they just don't care. They just want their needs met. And if you get hurt, who friggin cares? It just as long as they're happy and they're using you and using the people around them and getting what they want, if other people get hurt, it's just irrelevant. Almost. Yeah. And I think they know what they're doing because they can change their behavior on a dime. Right. So that that's what indicates to me, I don't know if they understand the true, enormity of their selfishness, their motivation. Because I think when you have a place to be personal disorder, it's egocentric, meaning you're just like, this is just who I am, but. Right. But they do know what they're doing because they can control their behavior. I'm just not sure if they understand the, I guess, I guess the extreme selfishness of their motivation, what they're motivated by. Yeah, I think that to me, I see it as the superiority is just show off the chart in time with this time. Period and the lack of a moral compass. Right. No moral compass to return to as you're making decisions. And what do I say? This partner will use time, exploit and betray you in any one to get their needs met for money, power, pleasure and status. And so if you just like, even take away all the labels, that's just who they are. Which is all the more reason to leave. Yeah. And you just happen to be a tool in the tool belt? Yeah. I don't think they have the capacity to love. Certainly not in the way that, you know, regular people love. Yeah. So it's not a loving relationship. And you can't love and hate someone like that's the the two things that can't coexist. Two things can. Two things that are different can be true, but not that are opposing. And that's he's abusive and he loves you. It's like. No, no, no, no, it's not it's not love. Because the way I define love is that it's the quality of connection, tenderness, warmth, trust, right, that you have with somebody. Communication. But there's a second piece to love, and that's giving someone the space to be who they are. Right. Parents have to do that with children. We have to do with friends. We have to do with our lovers. They can't do that because they want control, so they cannot give you any space to be who you are. And you have to be able to hear somebody to love them. And they can't hear us. Yeah. So no, it's not love. Right? So it's not love. Yeah. It's all about the control. And I hate that because it seems like love. And I think that's the confusing part for, for victims of abuse when you're in it is you're like, okay, fine, I get it. He's abusive. Okay, fine, I get it. This is a trauma band. But I love him. But he loves me, right? They don't get saved. I think the sex is what confuses that I do, yeah, I do, I think because we're so used to thinking as our lover, as someone we are intimate with and have sex with. And so I think when you throw the sex on top of everything, right, that's that we can think that that's love because we're making love to somebody. But sex ain't love. No, it sure isn't. But it stirs up all those emotions. You know, it's us. And sometimes, you know, a lot of the women I work with, they have great sex with this person. I once heard someone say, though, and actually, I wish I could credit that. I don't remember who said it, but that if sex is, it feels so amazing with this person. Is that the only time that you're seen in the relationship? Is that the only time that you feel connected? Because that's what heightens some of that is that it's it's awful. And then sex becomes repair. And I'm super human. Yeah. Because it's not actual repair, but it feels like, oh, things are good again. Yeah. But they're not. But but but they're not. And that's just a mix of so many hormones. Right. And so that's why I think you know again it's layered. That's why it's so confusing. And that's why I wrote my book because I was so sick and tired of the stigma towards victims. So, you know, yeah, that's why I really wanted to turn it on its head and explain all these complex, deep psychological processes that are occurring. Yeah, in a way that's relatable. I have to say, Run Like Hell is actually a phenomenal book. Truly. It's so helpful to read and see how you get into these relationships, what it feels like. I think it's a good mix of clinical and psychoeducation with just like relatable feelings where you're like, yes, I see myself in that. I saw myself in some of the stories. Absolutely. It's yes. And all the stories are real, which are breaking, which is heartbreaking. And of course, I mean, everything's mixed up, but, you know, and nobody's recognizable. But all of the stories are real, and that's why I wrote it like that, because I wanted to have four trauma ones and couples, right? That I weave through all the clinical material to make the clinical material come to life. You know? But yeah, unfortunately, all of them are real. And, you know, every single day I hear the stories aren't going away, unfortunately. And that's why I'm so grateful to be having this conversation with you that so real and raw, because people need validation and they need to know they're not alone. Yeah. I felt like nobody I remember saying to my friends, you guys just don't get it. You don't understand. You know, this is how he is, and this is love and this is our relationship. And it's not all bad. And I find that you are defend ING so much. I actually had a former law enforcement officer say to me that one of not like a foolproof way, but one of the key ways that he would recognize a victim is that she's defending the abuser. She's, you know, the police are there and she's defending the perpetrator, even though the police are there, even thought he police are there Yeah, yeah. Because when when the police came after it kicked me down the stairs, because I had dialed 911 and just hung up because I didn't have enough time. Because he drove my daughter and I into a garage door. The police, thank God, did come. And they said to me, you know, has there been physical violence? Any police officer said to me, don't even answer that, because we know that victims don't go up against that perpetrators. And I said to him, book his fucking ass. Oh, I like that. Yeah. Going to have it after that kick down the stairs, I was like, get him. And he drove me and my daughter into. I was like, he's going to kill us. Get him out of here. Oh my God, I love that you had such clarity to say that. Because for me, when I was thrown up the stairs, I remember picking up my phone and I was like, okay, I'm going to call the police because I actually called my best friend and she was like, what is wrong with you? Call the police? My God, you were just assaulted. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to call the police holding my phone. And I called his mom. I couldn't do it. I could not call the police. I couldn't do it. I called nine months later, and I know I've been dragged through the mud for that. You just waited nine months later. Why? Because it never happened. No, there was a whole other story as to why I waited. But the point is that when I called, I felt sick. Like I was like I was betrayed. I was a bad person. I was ruining his life, and I had to. Long story short, I had no choice. But it. I didn't feel like, I felt like this is the worst thing that I could ever do to someone. He's struggling. Poor him. Talk about trauma. Bonded, right? My God, yeah, that's what a trauma sounds like. Guys. That's right for him. You know, luckily, my mother had told me call them because I had left the house for a little bit, and she was like, call the police and tell them you're going home to a domestic violence situation. She was very smart. And so I had already alerted the police. So when I picked up the phone and hung up, they knew. And what I say to all the women I work with is you have to learn to tolerate the guilt of protecting yourself. That's powerful. I really wow, yeah, the guilt is it'll eat you alive if you don't figure out how to manage the guilt. And I've called it false guilt. I don't think that we should feel guilty. There's nothing if you didn't do anything wrong. Right? I know that that feeling. It's like such a sick pit in your stomach that it feels so real. Yeah. And with everybody, I'm like, you have to tolerate that guilt and still protect yourself. So they say that they just, like, run around saying that to themselves in their head all the time. Perfect. Whatever works to be honest, right? Because getting it out is challenging. So I know that you work with people helping them break trauma, bonds and identity. So I'm going to put everything in the in the notes so that people can access these resources and get help. I want to kind of shift into a little segment called Real Talk from the comments. Okay, I'm just going to I'm going to read you two things that people have said in the comment sections. It just have you sort of give your take on it. Okay. Sure. Okay. So one of them is trauma bonding. I've never heard of this. It sounds like something you females make up to justify your bad decisions. Oh, God, that's so funny. Yeah, well, you know what? I'm a licensed clinician, and I have my PhD, so I went to school for seven years, and my book, I don't even know, has probably 300 resources of research articles from the 1960s, maybe, or 70s, from experts in domestic violence who actually came up with the term right. And, and I think that there's a lot of people who say, not just why did she say but that victims lie, that victims make up things right, like we're making up this term because, you know, we have nothing better to do in our sleep. But, I don't think that anybody would. I mean, I'm sure there are people that lie about this, but I've never met one same and I've never met one. But it's so horrific what I've enjoyed, what you've enjoyed, what most women endure. Why would we make that up? I couldn't make this sh*t up if I tried. So channel bonding is a real term. Actually, I mean, really just to to drill this point home. Yours was so horrific, so out of this world. Horrendous. They made a movie about it. That's. You know what I mean? Like, that's make it up. I'm pretty sure movie companies, fact check things. I know, I know, there were some inconsistencies and it was not reported. It is a real it is a real term that's clinically sound, that's researched. And, you know, I was just happy when I found the term because I had something to call it. Same. Oh my God. I was like, oh my God, that's it. Yeah. It's it made me feel less crazy. And then I will be honest. That came a bit of a fanatic. And that's why I specialize in trauma bonds, because I was like, oh my God, if this has a name, it just it gave me relief. So much relief. Okay, so the next one is my therapist told me that he and I are trauma bonded together and that we should try to work this out and heal our trauma bond. OMG Yeah, I think that person should lose their license to practice therapy, but that's my very intense, passionate opinion. They should because let's talk about it right. What's the first thing in a trauma. What is a power imbalance. And I don't work like this clinically with my patients. But in the therapy room the therapist has the power. So for the therapists to say that that's an unhealthy, unethical, immoral, pathological perpetrator that just happens to be a therapist because predatory, pathological people are therapists, they're lawyers, they're judges, they're surgeons, they're doctors, they're pastors. They're everywhere. Not only to know that. Yeah, they're they're everywhere. And you need to understand the, you know, the traits of them, but that's that's really sick. And terrible. I completely agree. I also my biggest issue actually with that comment I pulled, it was trauma bonded together. Sorry. What your trauma bonded to the perpetrator of abuse. It's not like. Like. We are trauma bonded together. That's not even that's not even the correct framework. But it's like, keep trying and you can heal it together. You're only in a trauma bond if there's abuse present. So you just told a victim of domestic violence that they are collectively experiencing, like it was implied to me anyways, that it was sort of shared trauma and that you should work it out. What? Right, right, right. And also what it's horrible about that is that when you go to a therapist, you are very vulnerable and you often feel helpless. So that also matches, a predatory, pathological person's profile. They take advantage of people when they're most vulnerable. Yeah, that's absolutely horrible. I there's too much misinformation out there. So yeah I'm educators right. Yeah I like that. Yeah. That's a good thing to do. Yeah. And I want people to grab your book. Run Like Hell Yes. You will learn so much from it. But thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate the conversation and helping bring awareness to this horrendous topic and this addictive relationship pattern. So I thank you so much for having me, Lisa. I love our conversations. Let's continue them.