Blended Family Chaos: Stepmoms, Biomoms, and the Truth About High-Conflict Co-Parenting | S2E03

Somewhere along the way, society convinced us that the battle lines in blended families are always drawn between “evil stepmom” and “bitter baby mama.” But what if the real chaos is coming from the man in the middle—or from a system that thrives on pitting women against each other? Survivors know that nothing fuels abuse and dysfunction like smoke and mirrors, and blended family dynamics are no exception.

Lisa sits down with Naja Hall, host of I Know I’m Crazy and founder of VIP Stepmom, to peel back the layers of high-conflict parenting after separation. From stepmoms stepping into landmines they didn’t plant, to biomoms fighting for stability while being mislabeled as “bitter,” Lisa and Naja call out the unspoken truths about how men’s avoidance and manipulation often set the stage for these wars. They trade raw stories and hard-won lessons—naming the difference between boundaries and control, exploring why “keeping it real” with kids can cross into emotional abuse, and spotlighting the cost of outsourcing fatherhood to stepmoms.

What emerges is not a call to pick sides, but an invitation to clarity: to name dysfunction for what it is, to refuse loyalty binds, and to remember that kids deserve love and stability over ego and power plays. Healing starts when we stop playing by the tropes and start telling the truth.

Resources mentioned
• VIP Stepmom — community platform by Naja Hall
• I Know I’m Crazy — podcast hosted by Naja Hall
• Girl Bye, She’s Not Going Anywhere, Neither Are You — journal by Naja Hall
• Stepmom Mastermind Intensive — monthly program led by Naja Hall
• Co-parenting apps: TalkingParents, OurFamilyWizard

Transcript

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because, no, you're your child's brain. And I said it in the clip. I want you to clip this. Lisa, put this on your page right here. if your child's father is now in a relationship with his mistress, and you tell your child all the dirty little salacious details, you're only hurting your kid, that means they're going to have to go sit on someone else's couch. You're killing their ability to trust and have loving relationships. Now they no longer trust their father. He might have been a sucky husband, Let's get one thing straight. Sometimes the bio mom is the problem and sometimes stepmom is the problem. And the trick here is that we always assume that it's one or the other. But I don't want to forget who made this battlefield, which is. And then there's always a man in the middle of these two women. Right? Today I want to talk about step moms and bio moms and blended families. And I have with me the founder of VIP step Mom, Naja Hall, And the host of I Know I'm Crazy with Naja Hall. So please introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Thank you so much for having me, Lisa. And shout out to Lisa's tribe. Honey, I see you girls in those comments and Miss Naja does not want to tussle with you. But as Lisa said, I am the host of I Know I'm Crazy podcast. She's actually been a guest and she's always welcome over on my side of the world. And I founded a called VIP stepmom, and I did that because I found myself, becoming a stepmom. And as, like as Lisa mentioned, this man in the middle, there were so many different moving parts to the things that were happening in the blended family, in the ready made family that I entered. I just had no clue where to turn. In this instance, my role was not the bio mom, so I didn't need any of the bio mom Facebook groups or, you know, the email threads of whatever that was at that time. I didn't need those things. I needed resources for people like me that were with the guy that was probably an alienated father. But I found myself in the middle of this conundrum. What the what at the time, what I thought was this guy who had been devastated, this whole woman who had taken his kids away, and these children that were you know, in the middle of all of this crap. And what is it been 14, 15 years later? I was right. It was a very high conflict situation. But coming in as a new guy, in that particular scenario, I just needed support. And what do we women do when we need support? And we're not finding exactly what we need? Lisa. We build, so I build. Yeah, I step mom. Yeah, yeah. So I'm here today and I'm excited to to talk to you and Lisa, man, you don't always see eye to eye. I don't expect us to see eye to eye today as we have this chat. We've had many a heated moments online on my podcast. I'm expecting it today, but just know that everything I say is in love, and I know it's going to be the same way with you. Yeah, I think, you know, we're supposed to hate each other, you and me, because you're the married, evil stepmom and I'm a better baby mama, right? So you're supposed to be at war, and. Yeah, that's really coming. And I see that in the comment sections. And actually, funnily enough, I'm scrolling through TikTok right before we jumped on you guys, I saw the post about step moms, and it was like, you know, I'm not she. This this woman acts like I'm not allowed to love her children, and I'm just like a stranger in my own home. And I get that, actually, I don't actually read that post and think, oh, she's probably evil. She? You've taught me a lot. So I've, you know, I've had to to learn because there's something about like the new woman who. There's a could be many things jealousy, insecurity. But from where I sit, that has not been what it is in my. Yeah, that's. That's not been your experience. Yeah sure have not. But both exist and that's the focus. So we're going to talk today a little bit about when the step mom is the problem and when the mom the biological mom is the problem because I, I, I operate from a framework where we are not the problem. You are the problem. And that's the end of the story. And I don't want to hear what you have to say. So yeah, I want to not operate from that framework. And I think people need to hear this. People need to see what it is on both sides. And when I said, what created this battlefield, right? Let's not forget who's hiding in plain sight. Dad is a man who may not always be the problem, which is, you know, speaking to this point, it may be it is that his ex-wife or ex-girlfriend really is the problem really is withholding, really is gatekeeping, really is treating you like crap when often. Again, my lens is when stepmom or dad's new girlfriend doesn't have a clue what the hell she's getting herself into, and she will defend that deadbeat up, down, left, right and center. So the death, he's not doing anything like I know personal peace, you know, is she would constantly tell me like he sends you child support every month. He. I don't understand what your problem is, girl. He sends me nothing. Nothing. So what's to. Me? Why is she talking to you? Rape. I know a lot of step moms are going to harp on me for this one, but one thing that I'm glad that I didn't do in the beginning was run my mouth and get all up in there stuff because you are joining a ready made family. These people, no matter how wonky and jacked up their system was, they still had a family system. She did not anticipate you. He didn't anticipate you. He chose to bring you in. And these kids surely didn't. So now you're interjecting somewhere when you don't know shit about it. So yeah, in the very beginning. Listen, keep those lips close and keep your ears open, because he's going to tell you the side that where he is the victim and she is the bigger baby mama. And she lied and she did this and, because you love him and he's probably doing all these little strange things and tickling you with that little pickle that he tickled her with, too. You're going to believe him, and you're going to fall for these things, and you're going to be emboldened to speak up on your man's behalf. I encourage you to sit back and keep your mouth shut. for about a year, stay out of it. Stay out of it. Okay? And then, you know, I know you know, Lisa, you and I have had conversations online and offline about interjecting, and you may have shared personal things with each other. And so we've both experienced what it's like to feel that visceral from somebody who shouldn't be like, why are you talking to me? Why, why, why. Why are you talking about me at all? And I actually, you know what's interesting is we're here talking about step moms and biological moms, but I would I think that we would be, remiss to ignore the fact that sometimes we're talking about dad's new girlfriend. And I think that there is a difference in what you expect from a stepmom versus a girlfriend. Like you are not his wife yet. And I don't even mean that in, like, a, you're never going to be. I just mean that the role of a girlfriend versus the role of a stepmom. You own the home two, or you're married, you're building a family. Maybe you have your own kids. Whatever. But it's. Why are you talking to me? It was a great question. I think that I think that right there, though, what she said gets kind of convoluted because in my community is called VIP stepmom. There's a lot of people in there, that I now even in identify as women, which is completely fine, but they are also unmarried and they are considering themselves step moms. Because what is the step mom really? She's somebody that's married to do that has kids or to a person that has children. However, what does that mean? Because legally speaking, I am married to my husband who has children I don't have any legal rights to to the kids I have you know, if we stop existing today. So would that relationship with those children. So in that goes the same for a girlfriend. But I don't want to get things all convoluted and play like the game of semantics. Like you're not a stepmom if you're the girlfriend. What? I think we can least determine what qualifies a woman to call herself a stepmom. And I personally don't think that is someone that just has a legally binding marriage contract with that parent. I personally, that's my personal opinion. Yeah. I mean, I. Certainly I think I agree with you because I see girlfriend is like they don't live together yet or even if they do. But what makes them step mom is co-parenting, spending time with the kids. The kids like you, I mean, or not. But in a world where people are opting to not even get married as much anymore, I think you can be a stepmom if you are with him long term. So maybe when I say girlfriend, I actually associate that more with the time of like, so you've been with the. Men for a month, like you've been here two months. Like learn even when you come on a new job like this is a role, when you come on your new job, you're automatically not going to start calling shots and speaking to upper management. There are just some some ranks that you have to climb. And I can't sit here and give anybody a timeframe on when you can call yourself a stepmom, but I do just want to say I would encourage you as a person that's been doing this for 15 years at this point, to be very, very mindful to watch because the relationship did not end exactly how he told you that it did. And if you hear from her, from behind, from from the mom, it didn't. And exactly how she said either. So there's someone's truth right there in the middle. You also get to see why this woman is so angry. Because me, in the community that I serve, we strictly are talking about the high conflict biological mothers, not the least of the world. Not are you nice ladies that follow Lisa? We're talking about the ones that do keep the children away, the ones that have unchecked mental illness, the ones that have personality disorders, the ones that alienate, lie, cheat, steal. We're talking about those, not you girls. So, you know, if you can't say a man, say ouch. Right? Well, literally. The difference, though, is so important because again, like when I especially when I started in this, right, my framework is always like, you're the problem. I'm not the problem. It's never the biological mother that is like some wild, crazy thing which, you know, was maybe my trauma talking you both. I did the same thing, Lisa. We've grown though. Yeah. You publicly we've grown. Yeah. You bet. I love seeing the different perspective. I think it's important that we get along and say we we're not co-parenting children together. But you know what I mean? The we we, the step moms and the bio moms need to find a way to get along. However, in that you and I both deal with the high conflict. I'm dealing with the high conflict, dad, and you're probably more so dealing with high conflict. Mom. That's not like a happy go lucky, let's all be friends kind of situation. We're not doing Halloween and Christmas is together. And it's just, you know, the restraining order permits that. So yeah, we don't we don't have that happy go lucky thing. Lisa. Sure I don't I want to ask you, what have you seen what are some wild, crazy things that you've heard or seen? In step parenting. What have you seen some of your clients say? Some people say, what have these moms done? These biological moms? Yeah, yeah. So one of the things that sticks out because I just was scrolling and I saw it, this lady permitted her child to go over to the dad and I guess the girlfriend step-mom, I don't know what she was up to visit dad. And she sent the woman the step mother, a list of rules. Rule number one don't post any pictures of my kids on social media. Don't be alone with my children. Absolutely do not discipline them. Don't call them their hair. These are the list of foods that they eat. What else? Don't don't mention me negatively in front. You know, some things were like, okay, cool. But it was like a list of demands. And me, my ego or on first note, I was like, okay, maybe this guys had never gotten this kid before and it's the first time. Second, why the hell is she sending this to the stepmom and not the the dad? The tone was very off putting. I always say, when you're co-parenting, co-parenting, or counselor parenting, you want to make requests, not demands. Well, and I'm pretty sure a lot of people know that that, meme that's going around because the girl was like, you know, if you need to give my kids anything, need anything, call me. They need to go to bed. At this time, they only eat this. Don't touch them. You are never to be alone with my child. It was just like crazy. My first response was, girl, keep you damn kids at home. I mean, you can. You can keep your kids and never mind. But that's the ego talking like that's. That's not the way to be. I personally have gotten an email like that. In the very, very beginning. You know, I think, yeah, in the very beginning. Don't touch their hair. And Miss Naja, you know, I do like I'm very, really good at doing hair. I can any type of hair, I do that. So. And everybody knows that about me. It's one of my specialties. But it was always like, don't do this, don't do that. And I ended up having to fix someone's hair. You know, one of the kids hair on that first visit and they loved it. I think I had to wait at the poolside to redo. It took hours and they absolutely loved it. So guess who was permitted to do hair every time the kids came? As a matter of fact, Guess who didn't come with their hair? Done. Just so Miss Naja could do it. So obviously. it was more of a proving myself thing, but it was still met with just malice and the inability to be a little bit decent, not even kind, just a little smidgen of decency. I would hope that a lot of you out there listening are not sending your children over to their father's house in hostility because you've pissed everybody off over there. I hope that was horrible for the children. I think, you know, listen, we can agree that the goal for children of any age, like under 18, the goal is to be able to have a blended family where everybody loves them, even if the adults don't necessarily get along, but even better if they do get along. And you can go to like a sporting event, you don't have to sit together and friggin hold hands. But you can be in the same space and whatever. But again, because you and I deal in such high conflict, that's generally not what's happening. But there isn't that possibility. Yeah. Those rules that you just said, that's crazy. Now, some of them, I will say from the perspective of the mom who's, you know, quote, done everything right, like in in the high conflict situations that I see, mom is the primary parent, sometimes the sole parent, sometimes a single married mom. And so you you care about bedtime and you care what the kids eat. I mean, I get that emotionally, I understand. Yeah. When you're sending your kids over to dad's house, you need to get yourself out of that headspace. And I'm not talking about unsafe situations. I'm talking about stepmom does her hair. You could make her hair look crazy, and it's still just hair unless you're cutting it. That's why I'm not talking about dyeing. Bleaching the hair cutting. We're cutting it for minute changes. It's like, okay, brushing it, making it look neater, just things like that. You know, I've, I've seen some very, some boundaries put around the step parent step child relationship. So that just so it's intentionally that relationship cannot grow. So there's always like this this this wall of division there. That's what's happened to me and a lot of other people that are in my position. You know we want it. We wanted it to be cool. It's like, hey, you know, I'm going to Paris in two weeks. You want to come with me? I'll come over there and get you. Because that's the type of stepmom that I thought. That's the type of. That's what I do for my nieces and nephews. That's what I do for my friend's kids. So, you know, I'm like, hey, everybody calls on teenager for the first week of school and the first day of school, first week of school outfits. It's just what I've always done. Our house, you know, is where kids come for a reprieve. And so it sucks. Or it's very unfortunate that, you know, those attached to people that my husband loves very much can't experience that because what is one more person in your child's village I might not give a damn about? You mean you might not even like each other? But a lot of these step moms out here, Lisa, actually do care enough about their partner to treat their children well. And we are forgetting that. Yeah, we do forget that because it's that trope bitter baby mama, evil stepmother. We both have this trope, we both hate it, and we both know that it's not always true. But what you're describing with this like list of rules, that's crazy. my instinct is always to go, what did he do to make her come up with such a list? Right? But yeah, that list that you just read, even if, you know, I know we're not reading off the exact list. That list that you just read, some of those things are reasonable and some of them aren’t If the witches don't feed him nuts, okay, we got it. You know, don't feed him that stuff. But then if the dad doesn't know his child's allergies, and that's probably a whole nother conversation like this is. Which, you know. My brain goes like., does dad not know if she's so scared that dad is going to feed the kid nuts, that she's like, oh my God, I need to tell dad's girlfriend. I need to tell dad's wife. my friend just went to the wake of a person that was 98 years old. The deceased's wife passed like 20, 30 years ago, but he got himself a girlfriend. His girlfriend is like, I think she's 96. And they were together for a couple years at the wake his adult children. The deceased His adult kids made that woman sit on the other side. Nobody said anything to her. And I asked my friend that was observing all this. He was like, she was always so kind. She took she made sure, you know, within reason, you know, that you can take care of a guy. She was always so loving, but they hated her because she was, I guess, a replacement for for mom or dad was happy. But that even shows me the dynamic that's created. And their mother, I don't she wasn't even around, you know, so that shows me the dynamic that's created. You know, we aren't talking about the kids just yet. We're talking about the moms and the and the stepmom. Yeah, but I just think about that blended family dynamic of how there's always a sense of tension, unless you address that now, that shallow addressing it, it's just always going to be this unspoken thing. Yeah. And I think being able to understand both sides like this perspective that you have, which is valid and true in all honesty, and I would argue true in most cases where you think about like I picture a woman who is out in the world single and she meets a man and he happens to have kids and you think, oh, it's okay. Like, I like kids and you don't realize that his ex is a lunatic or in my world, right? That dad is actually crazy and abusive and his ex is not the problem. He's the problem. So yeah, I know on your your podcast, we've talked a lot about just be open like as a step mom, I would encourage anybody to just be open to the fact that she could be right. You could be with this man for a year and see the best side of him. And you don't really know him really, until things get deeper for you. Because we all know that that man or woman narcissists are very good at hiding who they are in the beginning. So you're not going to see. So all I'm saying is sort of like stay out of it. As you said, don't don't get all up in it. The stepmom's it sit there and they're they're the ones talking on talking parents and our family wizard. And I'm telling you I know moms that I know we are laughing at you people. We are laughing like, stop. Really? Okay, so next question I'm going to share this with is I'm going to share this with the Step Moms two on my page. So you can tell when it's US messaging in talking parent or email or text message. Right. You can speak to how can you tell that is not your baby daddy texting you. And it's it's a new little girlfriend grammar. That's. Oh but she can. Actually for. It. Because yeah, she can communicate better in a way. When I say better, just like more more articulate, I suppose, than most men who are speaking. Women just speak. Like this isn't a third or a third. You know, typing this is okay. So first and. Foremost, I can tell and frankly, I mean, dad's girlfriend often uses ChatGPT and I can recognize the use of AI, and I know that he would never take the time to use AI. So when you sound like a robot, that's a good indicator to, And you can also tell it like we I have to tell you the word. We set me off. And I think. That's a trigger. Point. That might be the point because it's dad doesn't say we, you know, like at our house, we this. But step mom wants you to know she exists. And there's that subtle piece of ego up in the messages of, like we da-da-da-da. Yeah, that's not dad talking. That's step, and that's okay. I'm talking. You're not letting him. So I always say, just let dad be the dad that he is. I'm so sick. And I would love your perspective. You may completely disagree. I am so sick of men who are abusive or not abusive, who defer to women to help raise their children. And then that pisses mom off because the biological mom is like, the only reason my kids eat well or have anything is because of stepmom. But what would it be like at dad's house if she wasn't there? So you actually kind of worry for your kids and it it's on one hand, it's a good thing because they're being taken care of, but there's an irritation of like, why am I sharing 50/50 with this woman instead of dad? Plenty of women I know are irritated with just the fact that, like, why isn't he doing the parenting? How come stepmom is doing the school papers and it's her signature on papers? And like, I thought he wanted? Let me ask you this. He wanted to be active. Let me ask you this. Why does it matter to you if your children are being cared for when they're at their fathers home? Why does it matter? Is it because and I what my assumption would be is, wow, I'm over here schlepping it by myself in the house, and it's just me and the kids. But then he has a whole in-house nanny, nurse, secretary, sex worker to do all these things for him. Is it? Why does it matter? I think that's a great question, actually, and I don't think I've ever thought about it. And I'm speaking for you specifically, Lisa, but you speak for the bio mom, so I want to know why does it matter? That's so. And I have to say that my answer won't be from personal experience because I don't have I don't do this. This is not my dynamic. So I actually can't answer. That's not what's happening in my situation. But you've seen the comments and yeah. I have seen it and my, my theory is a couple of things. I don't think there's one answer that just applies to all women, but I think when you are getting married or having children have to be married. Obviously, and you are starting a family with someone, it's like it's me and you and and you see it as like, I'm the mom, you're the dad, whatever. We're the parents. And it's nice if you divorce and people are loving your children, too. And you might have a partner, they might have a partner or whatever, but it's this feeling of like, moms bio-moms don't lean on step dads the way that dads lean on stepmom's. So dad will say, I want 50/50. And it's like, okay, but you when we were married or you when we were together, you didn't do shit. I did it, you can do to. You did my damn thing. And now you want to get divorced. And you know everybody, let's even say we agree. Everybody's like, yes, let's get divorced. Dad wants 50, 50 often, not always to evade paying child support. And you just get to have the kids at your house time away from me because you miss your kids and you wanted your kids. And then you hand them to stepmom, or you hand them to grandma or whatever. But it's like, why did you fight for that time with your kids if you're not with your kids and you're giving them to stepmom, I refuse. Now they get not my situation, but I refuse to co-parent with a stepmom in the sense of that's my primary contact. I would never refuse to co-parent in a healthy way, in a healthy dynamic with a nice stepmom who loves my kids. I would never do that. What if she loved the kids? Well, she thought you were such a bitch. And she's like, hey, Lisa, I'm out shopping and so on. So still they will. Is it fit her in a size four and a half, or would you just say, don't talk to me at all, don't get the shoes. I don't want my kids to have these or let the dad contact me. Like, what's because I know the high conflict your mom would do, but, you know. I would say with kids shoe size, I would say the kid's shoe size to you. And I would text all my friends and ask why you knew to text me. Because dad doesn't have a clue what size his kid's shoes are. Okay. Why aren't you asking, dad? Okay. It's telling me something that you're not asking, dad. Especially if. Knowing. And if I know you don't like me and you're texting me and just simply asking for a shoe size, it's like you want me to know that you're out shopping and you're trying to tell me there's like. I feel like there's. A hint in there. And so my mode of thinking was like, if I send you a photo of a shoe and it's a dress shoe that's going to run smaller, but a sneaker is going to run there. So I would be like, hey, in my mind, from the step mom, like, hey, what do you think is going to be better? And obviously that's a question that also dad should be able to answer, especially if he has 5050, do the bio moms that know damn well that he didn't do 5050 when he was with you? Only thing he did 50/50 was put that baby up in you do the bio moms that know that and the court grants the 5050 are is it like, why fight against who we know that he is. We know he's going to find someone to outsource his parenting to during his parenting time. So why fight that? Like, why stress yourself out and give yourself the wrinkles in the say like do all the things that you don't need? Yeah, I see it all the time, I know I all I'm so grateful that's not my situation. But I like, I, I think it has to do with the injustice. You love your kids and you wanted your kids, and now you're just like, yeah, go spend half your life with this woman. It's it's the injustice of it. You want that time, you're there's a jealousy. And I want to be clear when I say that because. Don't don't anybody hear this, I am jealous. You think that the biological mother is jealous of stepmom for being with dad? In the scenario I'm talking about, dad's a POS. She's jealous of the time that stepmom gets with the kids. And so you might like. I think there's within that, there's that sort of like two types of of bio mom where like, you're passive aggressively mean to or make comments about stepmom that you may or may not realize you're making. But it's more covert, more subtle, and let's even say somewhat unintentional. And then there's the ones where, like, you're not allowed to call your stepmom mom or you're not allowed to, talk or do your hair or don't talk to her, or she hates me. And just constantly putting yourself in that. I think I have more sympathy for the moms that are just sort of like, well, if you want her to do your hair fine. They just have to. You shouldn't be doing that. You shouldn't do that. That's that's a bad thing to do. But I'm just saying I like your you almost think you're not. I think that there's a lack of self-awareness in that you are creating this this rift. I am anti loyalty bind. So to me the kids should think everything's fine. The kids should think that you like them or that you're neutral. And I tell you, the most controversial thing I say today is maybe that because so many women are saying. No, I just I don't just like, yeah, I know they disagree. I would just say that because like, I'll tell you, the most controversial videos that I've ever made are around parenting children and knowing, like, let's just say for a second that you were dad's mistress. And that hurts. So just like, yeah, get the children that yeah, that's but it hurts the children because dad broke up his family through making this decision. And I'm not saying it's the mistress's fault. Let's say she knew. I wanted to, but she's involved in the dissolution of the family of the marriage. Exactly. So there's there's going to be some resentment there. And I guess thinking about the women that knew they were on the side, let's say. But. Bomb is going to be upset at that. Obviously. Rightfully so. Not because you'd be angry but hurt. Do the kids deserve to know that stepmom was the mistress. What do you think. I should have seen? I'm not. You're going to say no. I'm going to say absolutely no. Why should an underdeveloped brain have to process something that us grownups. It takes us years to process that type of betrayal. So why should your child have the responsibility of that heaviness on them? Absolutely no. But I've seen a lot of people in comments section, and I can always tell who was raised with the parent that kept them in a loyalty bond. They'll be like, well, I want my kids to know things. I want them to know everything. And I'm like, well, dummy, we'll go out and like, you know, like send them to school or something like that, right? Yeah. Okay. So then saw the kid asked you, like, let's just say one of your clients was in that situation and this stepmother was the mistress, and she knew even and she knew that he was married. Let's just say, you know, she didn't know like she's she was fully aware. And the kids was like, mom, how did Daddy and Jane meet? What are you going to say? What are you going to advise the client to say? Well, see, here's the thing, right? There's two. I mean, there's more answers, but let's say there's sort of two basic answers. The. Well, they met, when we were married, and, they started a relationship when daddy and I were still married. So daddy cheated, however kindly. You think you can word that. Okay. Or there's only what I would recommend, which is something very different. Which is. Why do you ask? What made you ask that question? Where did you get. Where did you. You know, what's what's driving you to want to know that? And then they say, well, I think that they had an affair. Did daddy have an affair? Did daddy cheat on you, ask you that straight up question. That's between the adults. You're a bit young to know that that's between your dad and I, you know if you have more questions about this I encourage you to ask your dad. There are so many women specifically that I will see defending them, telling their kid dad cheated with this person and he did this and he doesn't pay this. There's so many women defending that. And I think it's a crazy I think it's abusive, actually. I find it to be emotionally abusive to a child because you can't control your own damn emotions and like, find a therapist to talk to. Don't talk to your kid. He doesn't need to know all this, this, this business. Yeah, I feel so strongly about that. But here's, you know, I've any video that I've made on that topic. I get most of the comments I want to be clear are like, yes, this is such good advice. This is so mature. I get therapists, psychologists, moms, step moms, dads. All these comments flooding me with, this is amazing. But then there's that little group of women that are like, this is disgusting advice. Where do you get your certifications from? This is horrendous. You're telling people to lie. I would never lie to my kids. I you would never lied to your kids. Like not like if a child asks you what candy are you wear because. Your kids believe in the Easter Bunny in Santa Claus. Like, come on, you know what I mean? But there's inappropriate questions like, no kid needs to know what color your underwear are. So if they asked you, you might say, that's not really appropriate. Why don't we talk about something else? Now, if a kid says, I know that dad had an affair and dad did have an affair, I'm not saying no. No, sweetie. No he didn't. Daddy loves you. I'm not saying lie. That's what I feel like. My confusion is like there's always. There's always that little thing, that satisfaction of being, making yourself look like the better parent. And you're the victim that way. You kind of win the kids on your side. And so by saying things like that, even subtle innuendos when you like, well, I mean, he did hurt me. You kind of get a point, you get a mommy brownie point, but that's a sick shit. If you do that, you're you, you really gotta get some therapy. And if you're in the comments saying, like, I, those of you that are in support of telling your kids age inappropriate things, that just tells me that your own mama, did you like that? And so you have a bone to pick with her. You need to go sit on somebody's couch and seek some help for yourself, because, no, you're your child's brain. And I said it in the clip. I want you to clip this. Lisa, put this on your page right here. If if your child's father is now in a relationship with his mistress, and you tell your child all the dirty little salacious details, you're only hurting your kid, that means they're going to have to go sit on someone else's couch. You're killing their ability to trust and have loving relationships. Now they no longer trust their father. He might have been a sucky husband, but studies show that all sucky husbands aren't necessarily bad fathers. And you want that woman to forever wear the scarlet letter no matter what she does in those children's lives, she's always going to wear the scarlet letter. And you want that because it helps your ego that makes you feel good. But what happens when the kids actually do love her? What happens when the kids actually see other people respecting her? What happens in now? There's they have an internal battle because you have given the responsibility of carrying around your baggage. Girl, go unpack your stuff at your house, which are grown as friends or with your therapist. As a matter of fact, go talk to your mom because she's the one or your dad or whatever doe that was supposed to nurture you and take care of you, and they lay this burden on you. So now you're generationally passing that crap down. Yeah. That's off. And actually, Lisa, I, I y'all can come backstage. I want to see you. Please tell me. Come to my brigade over there. That's also. Come on. That's really. I just don't see it as a lie. I think that's the biggest, like, disconnect in how I see this and how the this group of people see it as a lie is. Did that cheat? No, dad didn't cheat. That's the lie. Because dad cheat is a lie. So to me it's like, why do you ask, how are you feeling about that? Let's say it's true. Okay, so this is true and you're not going to lie. How do you feel about that? So you're not shift. You're not talking about like yeah, you're right. Your dad's such a POS And Jane is, horrible derogatory words towards women. I you want to say? Yeah. You you don't focus on the child's feelings. You're not denying that it happened. You're also saying that it did, but you're you're just you're focused on what matters, which is how the child feels about the information that they have or the information that they want. Teaching them how to regulate, teaching them that. What? Like what? Something that I say is anything that happened because my kids witnessed things, not talking about affairs anymore, but they witnessed things my my eldest in particular and so like the questions that he might have, my answer is always going to be that stuff is so between him and I, and you get to have a relationship with him that exists outside of me. You get to have your own experiences with him and you get to love him, and that's your relationship. It has nothing to do with my relationship with him. My child witnessed him beat me like, do you know what I'm saying? Do you know the level of maturity not to, like, totally pat myself on the back here, but that that takes to not be like, yes, he's a POS. Yes, all these bad things happened. It's just like you can have whatever relationship you want. You want to talk to him, you want to call, you want to go see him. You want that. I want that for you. You want that. I want that because I love my children more than I hate any person on this earth. And that's what I gotta hop on you in these comments. And they got to get our ego in check. But it's like, not my ego. You're yelling at me in my comment section because of your ego. Yes, it is your ego. Look it up and it's a fact. It isn't subjective. I don't need a PhD, so I'll just know that. I got I got one too. I kind of want to ask or dig deeper into what you just said because, you know, if a child is witnessing a parent be abusive, they're witnessing this and you're not denying that it happened because the kid saw you're not going to gaslight the kid into believing, that they, you know, it was fairy tale land. But I think a lot of parents, if you know that your child's parent is bad, if they are physically abusive and they might be prone to doing it to the kids, I can see where that ego would be like, well, tell them that that dad is bad and this is abusive. So if it happens then they can be protected. I can see what the ego can kind of trick you into thinking it's okay, because that's the that's what our ego does. Our ego literally is, is blame shifting, and it's making us lead with ourselves at the center and not that kid. So that's a tough one. It's hard. It's hard not to be like your dad. You're dismissed. It's very difficult. He was abusive. He's a batterer. I hate it like it's. It's tough, but that's a big responsibility for a child. You just said something so interesting, though, because when you look at this from protecting the kids and what that's. That's not your own ego. That's like. Hello, Lisa. Did you just say that I shouldn't tell my kid that they're literally unsafe? How are they supposed to protect themselves? Well, there's two pieces to this, and I think it's important to make the distinction that physical abuse is one thing. And just for a moment, can we just put that aside? Let's talk about the emotional abuse. How you protect them is not by saying your dad is emotionally abusive, because what does that even mean? And I guess we're talking about kids that are 310, 15, 18 I understand. Right. So the answer is different based on the age of the child. Different maturity level and maturity levels. But I'm telling you that whether they're three, 13 or 18, it is not going to help. It is provably not going to help them. If you say your dad's abusive, that's not the protection. The protection is talking about behavior in real life scenarios. They come home and say, I hated being at dad's house this weekend. Talk about what made them feel that way. Talk about how to give them the internal resources to make themselves feel better, what they can do to feel safer when they're at dad's house and you're not there, how to regulate, how to cope. Distress tolerance skills like that's how you teach them. It's it literally I will say this forever. It is not teach them a goddamn thing to say. Your dad's abusive. It teaches them nothing. It teaches them to be afraid of their dad. And again, your experience with dad is different Now, he might be doing emotional abuse to you and to the kids. So I get that when you were married, you see it. You watch him be abusive to the kids. You hear it. He your kids are telling you the solution is to teach them how to cope until you can get them out of the situation, until they're teenagers, until they're 18, until they don't have to go. Life is hard. People in the world will abuse your kids emotionally. They're going to have a horrible boss, a horrible teacher, a horrible friend. So the skills are transferable. So you need to teach them no matter what. Why pick on the dad? When kids identify with their parent and they want to be loved by their parents and they want to love their parent. So like Doctor Kerry McAvoy once said this, and I want to give her the credit for this quote, but it's let them sit in the paradox of what is happening in front of them. Let them sit in the confusion. Dad loves me and dad makes me feel bad about myself. If my kids said that to me, I would say that sounds confusing. I hear you, it makes sense that you're confused. I would be confused too. Stop talking. Yeah. Let them play. Then they say more. You're talking about feelings. You're not like. You're right. Your dad used to do that to me when we were married. You know, you don't get angry at that. So you. It's it's hard. It's really, really hard. It takes putting your ego aside, which is very hard for for people who are coming out of abusive relationships especially. And then I would say it's impossible for the true baby mamas, as we call them, who are abusive. They're if you're withholding for no good reason, if you're hitting. Because you're mad or other angry or right, are you hurt before you feel if you're withholding because the brunt of the responsibility falls on you? It sucks. It sucks that when relationships split and it's not 5050, more than likely the labor, the day to day labor is going to fall on the woman. So then she is having a hard time pursuing her higher education. She is going to have to call in sick because she can't get to work, because there's no damn sitter. She can't go out of town to carnival. She, can't pay for that lipo. She can't even. She's having a difficult time even finding a new mate because she is doing the majority. So you you gon be pissed, girl. You you. I feel like she's a woman. Doing the brunt of the work. Should be paid handsomely. As a step mom, I feel like I can say this a woman doing the brunt of the work with those kids should be paid handsomely, to the point where it eases some of her burden. For a lot of women, that's just not the case, though. It's just absolutely not the case. So why you need the labor? It is a woman. Like even with the step moms, you know, at least what we're just talking about in the last segment, it's deal sometimes falls on the woman when the man is not able. It's not going to do any of that though. Yeah. I got told my husband earlier. I said, you better act like you want to do single moms out there, because I'm not doing any of that stuff. I needed to see that he could, and he was very capable. And when I saw how diligent he was with homework and taking him to practices and pouring into me, getting them up for church and getting dressed and washing clothes and washing dishes and making every single meal. I was like, oh damn. Okay, so you're not going to be doing the labor. All you have to do is really be a bonus. That's like something to do with kids. That's what I suggest anyway. That's why I tell y'all to wait, wait, wait, wait and just see how he's going to do. Because if that man brings his kids over, you're visiting and it's Saturday morning and he's not up making their breakfast because he's looking at you to go make it. Honey, you're a nanny. You're a nanny. I don't do that. Like, I would never tell any woman to be any person to be in that position. Don't do. It. I do not recommend I know that. So I will recommend it. Sounds to me like your advice is to wait. And my advice is to wait. Like, everybody just needs to take a pause and see what's happening for the first like 12 to 18 months, see how dad really does. Because society loves a catfight, right? And it's always going to be, oh my God, the villain step mom and the bitter baby mama witch. Yes, the one bitter, right? The word bitter is a word I know men use. Yeah. Press. Women and women have picked up that word. And I tell you, nothing sends me into a fiery rage faster than some pissed off stepmom calling baby mama's, using the phrase baby mama at all, but bitter baby mama. Like I will lose my mind. I will block, you know. After you came on my, podcast, I think I probably have only used bitter maybe twice since then. And I was just like, damn, Lisa, you're right. Because it's like a convoluted thing. This woman and all of her experiences in the summer, this one word. What was it? So many other things. Just like maybe she was righteously pissed off. Like, did. She say. She has. Personality disorder to bitch? Like, maybe she's just truly bipolar and has not gotten the proper diagnosis right now. That ain't bitter. That's not bitter. That's abusive. Right? So I'm not saying, you know, oh, it's all never called them names. I mean, probably not best to call them names, but what I'm saying is if the biological mother is the problem, if she's abusive and withholding and she's not bitter, she is abusive. Call her exactly what she is. She's abusive. So I feel like. It's kind of like the all encompassing word, though, because it's like disordered, mentally ill, mean, nasty, angry, vengeful, frustrated, confused. I feel like, you know, if we had to package it up just for the sake of getting our point bitter. I. Would like for there to be another word. I would like to. I want to be another word because I want to have taken the word bitter and it's like, oh, she's bitter. So when I hear step mom say it, it's just this like complete desire. Taking all of that being the substance. Yeah. And you're. Yeah, you're oppressing women with the. And she's also bitter at what a lot like I say when you when you said that that day on the part I was like, well damn she's right. She's I was like, she's actually right. You know, it's, it's it's kind of erasing what's actually happening. And we are picking up the torch for the guys. Like, we're taking the stick from the man and we're just kind of running. You're doing his does it. Because it makes it look like this woman is irrational, and she's. There's no reason behind her hysteria. Right. And there is a reason. It's either she is righteously angry or she's abusive. I know that I'm oversimplifying, but fundamentally, like, neither of those things are actually bitter at some would argue that bitter could just be that word that that holds it all, all of the things. But you know, you said something a few moments ago, you know what we were talking about telling the kid if dad is abusive and, I love what you said about teaching them how to exist alongside and in, a situation and who is the best teacher for our kids. And I love teaching kids things when we still have dominion. Not over their mind, but we still that we're very impactful because you're only able to be influential in your kids lives from birth to maybe ten, 11, 12. After that, they're on their own. So I would much rather see them and teach them how to navigate these situations while they're still coming to us, as opposed to the world is teaching them. So I love what you said about that, but how does a person do that? Lisa, when they didn't learn it then damn like damn self. I know, I mean I can tell you like YouTube videos and therapy and trying to get yourself through just really thinking about what's best for the kids, which is, you know, extremely hard. I get it. Yeah, I absolutely do. I want to take you to my comment section. So I have a little segment, real talk from the comment section, and I want to read a couple of comments that I saw online. And they want your reaction, your opinion. And the first one is so perfect because we were kind of talking about this, but this is perfection. So, okay, someone wrote on a video about the step parents and whatnot. They wrote, I had to ask my ex's wife not to brush my daughter's hair. I don't care if it's tangled. She's not her mother and she shouldn't be doing anything intimate like that. I told her that she can call me if there's an issue, instead of pretending that she knows what's best for my kid. What are your thoughts? You're gonna get your damn kid to do her hair in the driveway. Come. Go, Tiger, you can't come in my house. Go take. It's a matter of fact. Don't come in my driveway. Get. Your kid can take her hair and send it back in. I'm just. I'm just kidding. What's the what? What am I supposed to say to that? Lisa, wait. What I what am I supposed to say? I'm asking for something. First of all, I'm not going to respond. But Miss Naja is not going to have disheveled children anywhere around her. You're going to be well fed. You're going to be happy. You're going to look presentable for whatever that means. You some kids just don't care. And they're like, but if it's a child, hey, there's one. There's this kid that I know in particular. She's very particular about how her dress is, and she wants her hair done. And she was afraid to ask me to do it because she had been told, don't let her touch it here, and I'll do that. But she wouldn't watch me do my own kid. You know, I'd take a lot of time on and on how I present to the world. And she would always be like, well, how did you do your lash like that? And when I would get dressed, I would see her watching me. She was afraid to ask for help. So if you was putting your children right, if you're putting your children in this position. So what I would do, I knew she was afraid. I would say, hey, you want me to show you how to do it? Let me show you. I'm not going to touch. I'm not going to touch your hair, okay? I don't, and I wouldn't. You could be a bitch and say, I don't want you to get in trouble, but that's petty. You can say, I'm not going to touch your hair. You can give me permission to, but it's okay if I can't. But let me show you how to do it. And so now guess what I'm doing? Just because a mom wanted to be a bitch and sever that line and not have this intimate thing. Now your child has his core memory of me teaching them something, and that's going to last way longer than me doing it. So you just got to turn everything into something positive. I am keeping everything in these negative experiences of mine. As a step mom, I've done my best to try to turn it into a teachable moment. So that would be that too. I would just teach our baby how to do our own hair. Girl. Yeah, exactly. Then nobody has to do it. Perfect. Okay. Next comment. I don't know what other mom. Yeah, right. Next comment I don't get why their mom is so bitter towards me. She's involved. She picks them up, takes them to their activities, but she's not exactly on top of things. By April, she still hadn't signed them up for summer camp, so I just did it. I keep the family calendar at our house and I check in with their teachers, and I handle their routines here. I'm not trying to be their mom, but someone has to keep things running smoothly. Last I checked, two girls couldn't scissoring pop out a key? So where is the pickle in the middle that created this kid that's supposed to be doing all that? I've heard a lot of I. So. Yeah. There's a there's a, there's a type of stepmom that loves being needed and used because her love language is giving. You know, she just hasn't had the help and the tools and the resources to be taught she just didn't have the ability to sit firm boundaries in her own childhood. And now she only thinks that she can give love and receive love because she's subservient to somebody. Well, you just found a man at sea, that you're a sucker and you're the slave to his family. So, I could see why the mother would be lackadaisical. As a matter of fact, she. And I know this sounds like two sorry ass parents, actually. Sorry ass mom and sorry ass dad. Is that mom hasn't signed a thing since April. Dad is nowhere to be found. So now you're coming in as a savior. A lot of step moms will put their cape on, become super stepmom. And what if there's no benefit to you? The kids are going to resent you. Those parents are absolutely going to resent you, and your partner is not really going to respect you, but he's going to keep you around because you're Susie Homemaker and you don't have a back bone. Unhuh I look, let me I read that and I had so many questions because I have to admit, I know school starts differently in different states and whatever where I am, summer is July, so if you haven't signed your kids up by April, there's no issue. So like, what's the rush? It was she. She probably says, I type a, I'm I'm type A, I want to get it done. Now. I just like to be on top of it. Girl. Mind your business. Stay on top of your at stake. There's a lot of things that we could stay on top of that, focus on ourselves. It sounds like she probably needs to spend some more time with herself. Or she's afraid to ask that because she knows that he's inadequate. She knows that man is inadequate and asking Yeah. So the last the last comment is the real problem is dad, he says he doesn't want drama. So he lets his wife and his ex fight it out while he plays peacekeeper from the sidelines. And I was like oh that's a mom who gets it. I don't even know she's a stepmom or whatever. But that woman, whooo she gets it. She gets it. Yeah. Where's dad Absolutely. Where where where are you sir. We're. Yeah. Where are you invisible man I would always say and when I sit down with my clients because I get by your mom and stepmom clients all the time. The first thing I would say is what does it do. What does he have to say about all this? Does he know that you're on the phone with me? Is he willing to come and sit and talk? Is he is he able to do the work? Where is it? What does he say about this? I can always tell who's going to be a stressed out stepmom. I can always tell who's going to be a mother that feels angry and alone. Just based on what that her perception of where the guy is, her perception. I didn't say where he is. I said her experience or where he is. But yeah, where is he you're using? If you can't answer that question off the bat, then I kind of know what the problem. Yeah. Where the problem lies. Absolutely. And that's kind of the point. Like maybe he's Disneyland and he gets to be the fun parent, and step mom and mom are doing logistics and managing all the emotional labor and doing all the things, or the guy who, doesn't set any boundaries with his ex, and she's all up in your new family. That is stressful as hell. But he gets to play neutral. There's a lot of problematic men as we sit here, two women talking about who's the problem, bio mom or stepmom. And it's dad. In my. Opinion. We know each other is because there's in, I think chapter three of my book girl, but she's not going anywhere. Neither are you. A journal for step moms and moms. There's a whole chapter about the man in the middle and his contribution to this entire thing, and what he can do to make it better, or what he can do to make it worse. Yep. Absolutely. And that's the thing. It's not the women that are always the enemy, right? Sometimes they're just reacting to the same man's chaos in different ways from different positions in the story. So it's really not about who's the problem, stepmom or bio mom. It's really about accountability. It's about blending two families. It's about making it easier for the kids. And to be fair, everybody needs therapy. Every like you need to make that the title of this damn podcast. Everybody needs therapy. The kids, the step mom together, mom and dad. Mom. So everybody needs to sit down and just say, okay, so we got this new thing. Now we both know. I mean, you wouldn't have jobs, Lisa. We wouldn't have podcasts. We wouldn't have books. We wouldn't have any of the things that we had. If everybody could just get along, We wouldn't do this work. We'd be off. Who knows what you and I would be doing if we didn't do this work. Right? But, that's just not the case. People aren't going to go get the help that they so desperately need, because they either don't think they need it or they think they're just beyond help. Yeah. And that's a that's hard for you. Yeah. No, but. I think it help me as much help as I can get in every facet of my life and help me. Take it all of it. So get therapy. But I think, you know, it was such a great conversation, talking to you. And I want everybody to check out your podcast and your book and everything. So I will link everything in, in the caption in the description, in the show notes. Make sure that these people can reach you. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of overlap with our audiences in a lot of ways. So it would be great for you. Because guess what, Lisa? Today you might be the step mom, a girl, tomorrow you might meet a bio mom, and your kids are going to have a stepmom and vice versa. So there's a lot of overlap in what you and I both do. And, can I mention something that I do for stepmoms exclusively? So, I started in 2019, and I have a step mom mastermind intensive that I do, and I'm, I have, like a group of people, and I start one every month. Every single month I take a small group of you. And every single week we work through a curriculum. I show up, for an hour and a half every week. I do intentional, individual sessions. I do sessions with you and your partner. It's kind of like a step mom school. That sounds corny, but that's kind of what it is. You know, Lisa, I definitely want you to come in and speak to the piece for, one of the weeks. So I'm going to need you up in there to share this. But yes, every single month I do that. And, Lisa, I'll send you the link so you can link it below, because I would really love everybody to come that needs something like this. Yeah, it's something that not a lot of people talk about. You think it's just like, oh, just be a stepmom. Listen. Oh, that's that's hard, that's hard. There's a school for it. There's a do there's a school for it, especially the stepmom, because I help the people that are in high conflict situations. Some of us are just always going to be in high conflict situations, because the other personalities that we have to endure are content with the way they are. And everybody, you know, walks around them. Everybody has to walk on eggshells. So now we have to figure out a way so our marriage doesn't feel. They say the failure rate of a second marriage is, what, 70%? A lot of that is bullshit from the first marriage. It's trickle down. So I kind of am in the business of making sure that that statistic doesn't affect a whole lot of us. In fact. Well, thank you so much for being here. And, everybody, please go follow her. And, I'll see you again. Thank you.