Narcissistic Abuse Is a Cult: Trauma Bonds, Brainwashing, and Breaking Free with Vanessa Reiser | S2E6

When a relationship feels like oxygen at first and a chokehold later, you’re not “being dramatic”—you’re being indoctrinated. Narcissistic abuse doesn’t look like a one-off bad boyfriend; it mirrors a cult: love-bombing as recruitment, rules that keep shifting, punishment for noncompliance, and a leader who claims to be the only source of truth and love. If you’ve ever wondered why smart, capable people stay, this is why. Lisa sits down with licensed therapist and author Vanessa M. Reiser, LCSW, to map the cult mechanics of narcissistic relationships: idealize–devalue–discard, the Pavlovian reward/punishment loop that forges a trauma bond, and the “double bind” that ensures you’re wrong whether you comply or resist. They dismantle myths (“I’d never fall for that,” “you could have left anytime”) and name what’s really happening—coercive control that erodes free will, isolates you from your reality checks, and keeps you chasing crumbs after a manufactured high. Vanessa shares clear, clinician-backed ways to reclaim yourself: depersonalize the abuse (“it wasn’t about your worth”), rebuild nervous-system safety, and replace the fantasy with facts. 

You are not weak for being targeted; predators select, condition, and confuse. Clarity is the exit ramp. With language for what happened and community that reflects your reality back to you, you can break the bond and rebuild a self that’s yours again.  

Resources mentioned 

• Vanessa M. Reiser, LCSW — therapist & author 

• Dr. Ramani — educator on narcissistic abuse 

• Dr. Nadine Macaluso — clinician speaking on trauma bonds

Transcript

00:00:00:06 - 00:00:08:17
Music


00:00:08:19 - 00:00:17:12
Lisa Sonni
This is real talk with Lisa Sonni Relationships Uncensored, the podcast. They don't want you listening to.

00:00:17:14 - 00:00:52:18
Lisa Sonni
Welcome to another episode of Real Talk with Lisa Sonni relationships uncensored. You know, something that is just really difficult for a lot of people to understand? Is that abusive relationships is not just like a bad boyfriend or your husband was mean to you. You get really brainwashed, really confused, and really sucked into these relationships. And I feel like I've noticed this really similar parallel to cults and narcissistic abusive relationships and how a narcissistic abusive relationship just feels more intense, more psychologically damaging than your average abusive relationship.

00:00:52:19 - 00:01:02:07
Lisa Sonni
So today I am talking with Vanessa Reiser, a licensed therapist and author and I would love for you to just kind of introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about who you are. Sure.

00:01:02:08 - 00:01:20:00
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
So I am Vanessa Reiser. I am a licensed clinical social worker. I practice in New York, new Jersey, Massachusetts and Florida specializing in narcissistic abuse and cult abuse. And best known for my run across the state of New York in a wedding dress to raise awareness for narcissistic abuse.

00:01:20:03 - 00:01:51:15
Lisa Sonni
I love that I do know about that. And for those that don't know, yeah, please check that out. I think that was really, amazing because it just people don't understand what this is. I feel like in my years talking about domestic violence and abuse, so many people are like, okay, so he was mean to you as if that's all it was or that it was just immaturity or trauma or whatever the excuses are of why this person was abusive, but this is actually something that people get really stuck in, and a lot of people think it could never happen to them, but it happens to so many people.

00:01:51:15 - 00:01:53:03
Lisa Sonni
Why do you think that is?

00:01:53:03 - 00:02:12:23
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
I think the narcissist casts out lots of lines. I don't think they have a type per se. And if your boundaries are not in place and if you don't know what this is, and particularly if you are a people pleasing person, even if you've been raised in religious environments that you're primed for servitude, you can fall victim to a narcissist.

00:02:12:23 - 00:02:40:12
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
It sort of runs the gamut. There's no socio economic, data that I can provide that says that, you know, they target anybody who, is, you know, not doing well or doing well or famous or infamous or, any gender, any, you know, race, any sexual identification. It is literally it can happen to anyone but some of the smartest, most beautiful, loving characters that I know. And my clients would agree that it can happen to anybody.

00:02:40:12 - 00:02:42:20
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
There's nobody who is immune from being brainwashed.

00:02:42:21 - 00:03:01:07
Lisa Sonni
I wish it was because whatever that skill is, I would want to have that skill, obviously. But I know it's impossible, you know, I think that there's a hook that is involved in these relationships that it starts so amazing. And, you know, we talk about love bombing, which really is just a pop culture term. But it's that idealization stage.

00:03:01:07 - 00:03:14:14
Lisa Sonni
And it feels incredible, right? You're being sold a dream. So it makes sense for people to kind of fall into that because it gives you this sense of belonging and love and purpose, but then they just flip it into control.

00:03:14:15 - 00:03:35:18
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
Yeah, it's really, really upsetting and love bombing. You know, a lot of people ask me like, what if someone's just being nice to me? Yeah, absolutely. If someone's being nice to you, that's not love bombing. Love bombing only becomes love bombing when the devaluing begins. And the devaluing can just be the removal of the love bombing. So if somebody just becomes unloved by me, that's a red flag.

00:03:35:18 - 00:04:02:16
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
So this consistency, can just be somebody being kind to you. But inconsistency is where you're going to see the devalue. You're going to see that confusion. What did I do wrong? You were just so nice to me. You know, everything was so wonderful five minutes ago and you've disappeared. There's a silent treatment that potentially shows up or, you know, in a more overt scenario, like you are dealing with verbal abuse or physical violence, but, the devalue is really what makes love bombing,

00:04:02:16 - 00:04:03:07
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
love bombing.

00:04:03:10 - 00:04:27:22
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, I feel like that that part of the cycle is really challenging for people. I know that people don't tend to get that. Every abusive relationship includes some amount of good, but you just made a really excellent point that sometimes it's not even that it's so great. It's the absence of abuse that might feel good just because it's better than being abused, or that they were love bombing you and giving you all the amazing things.

00:04:27:22 - 00:04:45:22
Lisa Sonni
And then they snatch that away and you're sort of standing there. I compare it to being starving, like, I'm, I'm Italian, so I talk a lot about bread and it feels like you get a loaf of bread and you get another loaf of bread and another loaf of bread, and it's the best bread. And then in the end of the relationship, you have a plate of crumbs, but you're starving.

00:04:45:22 - 00:04:49:13
Lisa Sonni
So it feels amazing, but you're not actually getting anything anymore.

00:04:49:17 - 00:05:26:19
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
Yeah. And I think that's the big confusion for people is the devalue is potentially just the removal. It's not that acute trauma, domestic violence is not just when someone punches you in the face. Domestic violence is purposely devaluing you and making you fall into this position of being controlled. So in this experience, in the cycle of abuse, we are eager to get that dopamine hit again to the extent that we will, you know, lose ourselves to sacrifice ourselves, give up all of the things like a drug addict might to get that coveted fix again, to make it feel okay again, to enter into the idealization phase again.

00:05:26:19 - 00:05:48:08
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
They'll do almost anything like like a cokehead, literally. I mean, I shook for nine days when I got out of this relationship like a proper drug addict, because it was the cycles were so severe in terms of very, very resourced love bombing and then totally gone missing silent treatment, you know, not so much the overt, you know, kick in the teeth version of this, which is, very different.

00:05:48:08 - 00:06:07:20
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
But it was just the ups and downs were so rapid that I was just my, you know, cortisol levels were very high. I was rather dysregulated. I could not get myself to baseline. And I was eager to get that fix again. So it you know, none of us are immune to this. It can happen to anyone. Work. It's very, very Pavlovian.

00:06:07:20 - 00:06:41:02
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
It's this reinforcer. We are not immune. It really is something that we should be teaching in our elementary schools in terms of, like, you know, being these little, like, worker ants that are going to, you know, follow like sheep if we don't really get, into this critical thinking, you know, phase very young, independent thinking, autonomous, kind of mindset with our children because, you know, we we tend to teach our children, you know, do the right thing, follow, you know, the crowd to some extent and not really done a disservice to our kids, particularly in religious environments.

00:06:41:02 - 00:06:50:18
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
But you want to kind of have that, like radical autonomy. You want to really, really kind of get your kids into that space because all of us are, vulnerable to this.

00:06:50:23 - 00:07:05:03
Lisa Sonni
I, you know, I find, there's a I don't know if arrogance is even the right word, but, you know, like the I'm on social media all the time, right? So like that group of people that are like, that could never be me. There's some some arrogance to that, that I'm like, I really hope it never happens to you.

00:07:05:03 - 00:07:31:10
Lisa Sonni
I really do hope that that you don't have to learn the hard way. But too many women are learning the hard way because they think it could never be them. They think that maybe they're too smart, right? Like I would make better decisions. You obviously chose the bad guy, but that's not what it is. They think they're missing the fact that anyone can fall into this. And there's a level of conditioning that happens and indoctrination really that sucks you into this and then holds on so tight when you're in it.

00:07:31:13 - 00:07:50:11
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
Yeah, I think a lot of people don't. It's like you don't know what you don't know what you don't know. And the other thing that's really important to highlight is that it comes in different shapes and sizes. So even the ones that have gone through it, they'll say, oh, I met this new guy. He's nothing like John. And John was overt.

00:07:50:11 - 00:08:08:17
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
So, you know, you could see John coming a mile away. Here's the guy with the Ferrari, the pop collar. He's like a quintessential douchebag. Like, this one doesn't look like John, so he must be safe. And then, you know, here comes, you know, narcissist number two, who's particularly covert and all of the characteristics manifest in a very different way.

00:08:08:17 - 00:08:20:11
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
So you have to get really, really learned on the versions of it to because you might think, okay, this time this looks very different from, you know, the monster that I experience, but there's different kinds of monsters.

00:08:20:14 - 00:08:44:18
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. People end up in more than one abusive relationship. Somebody asked me that last week, actually, why does that happen? Why do people end up in more than one? And I think there's a level of like, I want to avoid my ex. I want to avoid a man like my ex, instead of like looking within yourself for what felt comfortable in what felt familiar, and maybe deeper dives into red flags and things like that.

00:08:44:18 - 00:09:04:19
Lisa Sonni
But I actually think we can learn a lot more from inside our own self of what got us here. Not from a place of judgment, right? But what felt normal. What what did this person use to hook me in? What was I believing? What what story did I tell myself about the relationship? Because when you get into these relationships, they kind of cut you off from the world.

00:09:04:19 - 00:09:23:00
Lisa Sonni
You start to lose touch with friends, with family, even if you still have a support system. I find that as you step deeper and deeper into the relationship, you have less of an outside influence and then you don't have people going like, hey, are you sure this guy isn't also bad or that you're actually happy in this relationship?

00:09:23:00 - 00:09:24:17
Lisa Sonni
You kind of lose your your checkpoints?

00:09:24:20 - 00:09:44:09
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
Yeah. And I think there really is like people ask me all the time, like, how do I avoid them? You can't. They're everywhere. So the best thing you can do is become the most ungovernable version of yourself. So you have to be, you know, totally involved in your own hobbies, your own friendships, your own finances. You just can't waver.

00:09:44:09 - 00:09:59:21
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
You have to be solid and surefooted in those things. And then the narcissist will generally sort of scurry away to go find somebody who they can manipulate. So that's like the remedy is just to do you, like, radically do you always all the time. And they'll just move on. They get

00:10:00:00 - 00:10:18:20
Lisa Sonni
people call it bored. I don't think it's actually bored. I think that you become difficult and there are easier targets, let's say, so they can hopefully we hope. Right. Move on. And I hate to say find someone else because it's not I would never wish that on someone else, but they really just hold on tight. Suck you right into this.

00:10:18:20 - 00:10:37:08
Lisa Sonni
I think that, you know, a lot of times when I'm speaking to my clients like he's controlled who they can see, who they can talk to, they even control how you see yourself. That's very filtered through them. We rely on them for that validation because, as we're saying, that love bombing and all that in the beginning is just it's so intoxicating.

00:10:37:11 - 00:10:47:21
Lisa Sonni
How does that compare to some of the I don't know, I mean, I know they're not buzzwords, but like, indoctrination, cult addiction. How do you see these things relate?

00:10:47:21 - 00:11:06:11
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
They are absolutely one in the same period. There is no difference between being in a cult of money and a cult of one. There's just no difference. It is. You are in a cult. If you were in a relationship with a narcissist, you were in a cult. Very hard. Stop. And I have a question myself about this and spoken to Doctor Ramani about this.

00:11:06:11 - 00:11:23:13
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
And she was like, no, you're right. Trust yourself. That's exactly what it is. and people who have been in small cults, right in my in my practice, I treat people that were in, you know, like a gaggle of people. So between 5 and 9. So you can be in a cult of one five, you could be in a cultic family system.

00:11:23:13 - 00:11:45:00
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
So you could have grown up in a home where there was a hierarchy or, you know, one of your parents was particularly, you know, abusive, or authoritarian. And that cultic experience is really not going to be dissimilar from any of the others. Basically, the bottom line is every cult is led by a narcissist, a sociopath or a psychopath.

00:11:45:00 - 00:12:01:02
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
And in that environment you will get love bomb do you will get, future faked. You will get controlled, you will be gaslit. You will be smeared. They will withhold like in the in the cultic family. Maybe one of your parents is like, well, I'm not going to pay for your college if you don't do the things I need you to do.

00:12:01:03 - 00:12:28:00
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
So they're very much the same. We see very, very, you know, nuanced differences. But by and large, this is the exact same concept. And one of my goals is really to destigmatize, the cultic experience, the idea of, you know, this, you know, you know, I'm not going to be brainwashed. Bullshit. Like, this is what I'm really, really aim to. Fuze in my book was the concepts of narcissistic abuse and cult of these are the same.

00:12:28:01 - 00:12:46:05
Lisa Sonni
I love that people are just saying that out loud, because I tell you, the amount of people that I'm sure you've spoken to as well, that are like missing the words to really describe what they have experienced. And I know I'm an intelligent woman and I'm, I'm I was known for being a bit of a B in the business world.

00:12:46:05 - 00:13:09:08
Lisa Sonni
Even so, like, I would never be in this kind of relationship. I'm too smart, too strong, and yet I was in it, you know, I was I was in it for a decade. And it makes sense to me now, knowing what I know about it. There is this a leader dynamic almost of of like he was very magnetic and charismatic and all of these things. And then and I was so in love like so and like because he's treated me amazingly.

00:13:09:08 - 00:13:31:17
Lisa Sonni
But then there was like punishments and demands and I don't know, like the rules changed. And I remember being like, how did we get from there to there? Like it it feels like it happened overnight. But I think what's interesting is that it absolutely didn't happen overnight. It was over time. What does that sort of look like to you? That sort of how we start to see the dynamic of the cult leader, the abuser.

00:13:31:17 - 00:13:34:02
Lisa Sonni
How does that change over the course of the relationship?

00:13:34:02 - 00:13:56:18
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
What they do is and we kind of touched on this before, is they turn off the dial. So, you know, this idea that if you are going to live in servitude with a narcissist, that as long as you just fall in line, then you won't be punished is not true. It's a catch 22. So even if you give the narcissist everything they want, you will be punished.

00:13:56:18 - 00:14:17:21
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
You can't please them no matter what. So there's always this dial. So they're watching you tolerate this. So then they turn up the dial. Okay. Let's see if you can tolerate this. Now you tolerate that. Turn up the dial and it's a slow little turn so you don't see it. You don't know it. But that's what happens. You cannot ever get out of it, okay?

00:14:17:21 - 00:14:34:00
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
There's no anyone who's listening. It's like, oh, if I just fall in line, everything will be all right. No no no no no, you will be tortured either way. And the reason why this is so important is because, as you mentioned, I'm totally piss and vinegar. I'm probably one of the toughest people I know. Just grew up in New York.

00:14:34:00 - 00:15:07:22
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
Irish Catholic, ragamuffin kid, right? Done a lot of races and just hat backwards kind of girl. And I was just totally like suicidal, honestly. Like it was it really wrecked my entire being. And so it doesn't matter if you are the tough girl, it doesn't matter if you are the kind girl. Because I've, I know for a fact that there were other exes that were not like me that were very, very, very docile, sweet, kind, beautiful, soft, you know, just involved in raising children and making meals and taking care of the family.

00:15:07:22 - 00:15:36:01
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
Very, very different than Vanessa kind of thing. And the same thing with my clients, they are just very different. It really sort of it's all different shapes and sizes, but it matters not. You can be like the toughest girl with a tattoo sleeve and be a racecar driver who likes to do drugs with them, do the threesomes with them, all the things you will get abused and you can be the flower who is just the kindest, most careful and creative you know, partner and you will get the exact same treatment.

00:15:36:01 - 00:15:56:15
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
It really sort of matters not. You can't just fall in line and they will be nice to you. It's not. They will potentially torture for longer because they may be able to stick it out with you longer if you know. But the other thing is they get jazzed by your pushback. You know, they also like negative attention. So if you are going to fight with them, I mean, this is something that they're like, yeah, let's play, let's dance.

00:15:56:15 - 00:16:11:18
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
It's cat and mouse stuff, so there's no way to please them. There's just a hole in the bucket They're just looking to get a kick out of anything everywhere all the time. So I don't think that you can just, you know, be immune from that. Turning up the dial no matter what you do.

00:16:11:18 - 00:16:19:04
Lisa Sonni
I feel like it's a double bind, no matter what. Right? You. I always kind of say, like, if you're in a relationship with someone who's narcissistic, you lose. Like, that's.

00:16:19:04 - 00:16:19:14
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
That's

00:16:19:15 - 00:16:34:17
Lisa Sonni
right. You're compliant. You're wrong. You're not compliant. You're wrong. And it's it's crazy because they almost seek to punish. And that's where the gaslighting comes into play, right? I did exactly what you asked me to do. No you didn't. I never asked you to do that. It's just like, it's crazy making. It's crazy making.

00:16:34:17 - 00:16:58:12
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
Yeah. It's a big sort of question, even in my own mind clinically. And somebody who studies this and has an advanced degree, I still see that the overlaps between narcissism and sociopathy are not going to be very easy to identify. So, you know, you're going to see narcissistic traits on a Monday, and then you might see something particularly scary and sadistic on a Wednesday.

00:16:58:13 - 00:17:20:00
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
And those overlaps are are really dangerous, you know. And so there's also that you sort of can see some really Machiavellian behavior or some really, really dangerous impulsivity when you're dealing with psychopaths and stuff. So, you know, these guys are or they're living in these clusters. And so it's hard to say, you know, if you're dealing with somebody who's very dangerous.

00:17:20:04 - 00:17:39:16
Lisa Sonni
They seem to kind of present themselves, which I this really speaks to the cult side of things, too, right? They're the only source of truth or the only source of love. You get so addicted to them. I know we're not addicted to them, but you know the feeling, right? Like you need them. And being in literal withdrawal from a relationship.

00:17:39:16 - 00:17:58:10
Lisa Sonni
I can only imagine if you have no idea what we're talking about, how that might look crazy to someone on the outside. But man, the women that I speak to, you feel like you can't breathe without the person. You feel like you literally can't make it, but it's because they sucked you in and likely you're experiencing a trauma bond.

00:17:58:10 - 00:18:18:10
Lisa Sonni
And that feels like addiction because it's that cycle that you're talking about. If reward and punishment and, you know, love bomb, and, the crumbs of affection and all of it's it mimics this addiction loop and then you feel stuck. So the thought of leaving, I feel like when I recall that I how do you even go on without the person?

00:18:18:10 - 00:18:28:14
Lisa Sonni
You can't. I didn't think I could live without him, which is crazy because I lived before him. And frankly, my life is so much better without him. But I remember that feeling like I can I make it, I don't

00:18:28:14 - 00:18:52:14
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
know. I think what happens is you become so codependent and enmeshed in this process that to get away from it is like a disembodied. It would be like almost like an out. You would have to unhand your entire self. Your sense of self. And we saw this with Nancy Salzman in the Nexium cult. She stood by Keith Raineri even after Keith was convicted and was going to spend, you know, the rest of his life in prison.

00:18:52:14 - 00:19:12:00
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
It took her a few years, even after his imprisonment, to even conceptualize this idea that he was the bad guy because she couldn't unhand in my opinion, she couldn't unhand her own sense of self. She had just become too attached to the concept of who he was. That to unhand that was to literally freefall out of a skyscraper.

00:19:12:00 - 00:19:35:09
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
She would have to just hold her nose and jump off the top because it's to unhand your entire identity. And that's extremely hard to do for tequila. If you're raised in a cult and your entire identity is around this deity. So if you're raised in that environment, you don't even have an identity to return to. Like, you and I were able to go find that bish we were before.

00:19:35:11 - 00:19:50:13
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
Imagine if you didn't have that fundamental concept. So, you know, people that try to extricate themselves from cults where they grew up there. This is like. I mean, I try to frame it as an opportunity, but it's a really, really big slog. That is very hard.

00:19:50:14 - 00:20:10:17
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, I recognize how hard it is. And I think one of the most interesting things to me is this whole kind of concept of blaming the victim, like you picked him. And I think number one, I don't even agree, right, that we we picked them. I fundamentally believe that they target people and that they pick us. But even if let's just play silly for a moment, we picked them.

00:20:10:17 - 00:20:47:06
Lisa Sonni
If you don't know anything else, and you were raised in an environment where this certain of these behaviors felt normal people pleasing, fawning, changing yourself, not really having a sense of autonomy or identity. Yeah, you're going to end up in a relationship like this and you're not going to know better. And it's odd that you might take a woman who's in her 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s and blame her for how she was raised and for not knowing anything different when the whole world seems to facilitate and enable bad relationships like this, and abusive relationships and cult dynamics and indoctrination and brainwashing, it's all right there.

00:20:47:08 - 00:21:03:14
Lisa Sonni
And it's crazy how we just find any reason to blame the victim, which in this case, in my case at least, it seems to be a lot of women. I realize men can experience it as well, obviously, but I feel like women are just groomed in a different way from a younger age to allow this kind of treatment.

00:21:03:14 - 00:21:19:18
Lisa Sonni
And then the whole world is sort of like, are you sure he's mean? You know, are you sure? And again, if you were talking about being religious, if the man is the leader of the household, we're often taught to defer to him and listen to him and let him lead. He would have led us off a cliff easily, literally.

00:21:19:19 - 00:21:54:20
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
Like literally. I mean, yeah, but yeah, I think the patriarchal, concepts are pretty pervasive, not just in, the northeast. We see this as being somewhat universal. And I think the trifecta of, the worst scenario would be growing up in a religious environment, growing up with a toxic parent because now you really don't know anything different, and then finding a toxic partner because those three things, you're being primed for servitude in this religious environment, you don't know anything different because you're parent. One of them potentially was toxic.

00:21:54:20 - 00:22:11:05
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
Of course, you're going to be, you know, pretty well primed for an abuser to find you, and exploit those people pleasing behaviors. So, it's no shock when you sort of look in the rearview mirror that, so many of us have gone through this. But yeah, I think, you know, it's exciting that a lot of us are talking about it.

00:22:11:05 - 00:22:35:21
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
I can't even imagine how many people have offered themselves before social media, like the book, you know, the Salem witches and all of these people that were like, you know, diagnosed with hysteria, like, give me a freaking break. So, so many people had to suffer in silence and in vacuums up until, people started sounding off about this. I mean, we saw gaslighting was the word of 2023.

00:22:35:21 - 00:22:56:10
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
So people are finally putting the vernacular together. And there are so many people doing the important work that you're doing, Lisa and myself and others where we're just kind of, providing education, you know, around these terms that it's never even occurred before. So, that part of it feels like it, it may we may see some kind of changes, hopefully.

00:22:56:13 - 00:23:22:11
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, I hope so. I mean, like, for all we're doing, right, to try to bring this topic to the public and make people see it, whether they're in already or they're out of it and they never want to repeat that. Or younger women who are finally waking up and listening to us old, you know, over 30 years old, bitter women that we that we get made out to be, which really only furthers the the ability to silence the women who have figured it out. I think.

00:23:22:11 - 00:23:46:22
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
Yeah. And I also, you know, men are the victims of not just narcissistic women. Men are the victims of narcissistic men. We saw even with P Diddy and others, they will exploit and punish and harm their security guards, other men around them. Men will also, you know, sexually abuse young boys. We saw this with the Catholic Church and others.

00:23:46:22 - 00:24:07:10
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
So this idea that, like men are not immune from being victimized by men is this weird little code that I see not many of them discussing, maybe because they feel that it's emasculating, etc. but what we really need is for men to come out and kind of rage around the narcissistic men in their lives, not just the narcissistic women, because they're there.

00:24:07:12 - 00:24:34:01
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
But I feel like we are going to need their power to support what we're doing. It was Kevin Spacey that was the one. All of his victims were men. But they do that. They will not just harm, you know, the female gender. They do harm their golden children that are boys. They do harm boys also. So we need those characters to come out and speak out about what they've endured, because I think that's going to be where you see the real change.

00:24:34:04 - 00:24:56:00
Lisa Sonni
yeah, I completely agree. Now there's a lot of shame around that and stigma, I think, I mean, for men and women, right. In admitting that you were brainwashed, I think for me, I found knowing what a trauma bond was and learning the name and learning all the parts of it, it was really actually empowering for me. But I think that there's also this sort of other group of people that are like, how could I have been so stupid?

00:24:56:00 - 00:25:10:07
Lisa Sonni
And that's not what it is, because it's not about intelligence. But what do you see as the biggest issues around the shame piece of admitting that you were in a cult, in an abusive relationship, that you stayed for a decade, that you believed him?

00:25:10:07 - 00:25:30:12
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
Yeah, it's such a great point. I think with Mark from the Nexium Cult similarly because he was of male victimized by Keith Ranieri. There is a lot of shame in that. And I think he's a hero in so many ways for speaking out about what he endured. But I think there's a lot of shame in even being in a cult

00:25:30:12 - 00:25:44:20
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
like, give me a break. I'm not. First of all, no one goes into a cult. It's like, hey, we're good. I would like to sign up for the next cult, if you don't mind. So this word is very. You know, there's a lot of stigma that comes from this idea that, like, you're not going to be able to manage your own thoughts.

00:25:44:20 - 00:26:02:19
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
And so that's really what this work is around is like, we can all be manipulated. These people are master manipulators. Unless we start to really teach it, as I mentioned, to really young children, which is also weird because how do you, like, turn to like, you know, little kids, like, oh, there's evil people all around, you know, like, it's.

00:26:02:19 - 00:26:07:01
Lisa Sonni
A way to scare them. Yeah. The monsters aren't under your bed, honey. They're everywhere.

00:26:07:06 - 00:26:26:05
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
I mean, we'd have to figure out how to manage. I. I think there's ways to do, to teach gaslighting and fact from fiction, which I think we need to start getting, getting into with our young people. But, yeah, there's a ton of shame that comes from this. I didn't feel a lot of shame. For some reason, I was pissed when I figured it out.

00:26:26:05 - 00:26:47:01
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
Like when it clicked, I was like, serious. I wasn't embarrassed as much, I don't know, I was like, what's, you know, like this kind of like I was like, enraged. But I understand why people are ashamed. And I understand, how they manage that, especially if you were a male victim. That's it's, probably very difficult to manage.

00:26:47:01 - 00:27:03:06
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, I really related when you said you were enraged because I was too. Once I started to realize, like, it was a slow drip for me over sort of nine months of accepting that it was abuse, that label of abuse, because before it was he was mean and it was this and that. And I had all these reasons that he did it.

00:27:03:12 - 00:27:22:15
Lisa Sonni
But as I started to go like, this is abuse and I was physically abused. So, I mean, in some ways the only shame I have is in not recognizing that when somebody beats you, that's abuse. There's no yeah. You know, it might seem obvious, but for those that know that, you know, but I once I piece it together, I was also just absolutely pissed.

00:27:22:17 - 00:27:44:13
Lisa Sonni
How dare you think you can abuse me? I was absolutely furious, and I'm glad that I didn't experience that kind of shame. But I watched so many people feel it and I can totally understand it. I really, really get it. There is maybe an agent of change that people need. What do you think that is to get yourself out of this? This cult like relationship?

00:27:44:18 - 00:27:47:14
Lisa Sonni
how can people help themselves to that change?

00:27:47:18 - 00:28:13:13
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
What a great segue, because I think it is. You have to get angry. A lot of my clients that have a hard time getting angry seem to stay the longest, seem to suffer the longest. So what I will have them do actually to break the trauma bond is to make a really long list of the things that this person has done to you and keep it like in your phone at the ready, because you want to remember, you want to really take off those rose colored glasses.

00:28:13:13 - 00:28:31:14
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
This idea that you're blaming yourself for what a predator is doing is absurd. So I get them angry. My whole job is to get you good and pissed off. And how do we do that? Let's look at what they've done. Oh, what did that feel like for you? And then I will have my clients make a list of the things that they love about themselves.

00:28:31:14 - 00:28:57:07
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
So they want to do disempower the narcissist and empower themselves and then quickly realize, like the narcissist is generally a grifter, a con man, an unemployed drug addict, potato that we literally put on a pedestal. And when you realize that and go, oh my God, like how like horrifying that you were this thing that I thought, you know, was so important and you're really this thing.

00:28:57:10 - 00:29:28:10
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
So, you know, I try to get them clarity, but also I do try to get them pissed off because they need to kind of shake off this idea that they were deserving of this or, you know, have a bad picture or all of this other garbage. When you're dealing with predators, it really, you know, it's it's equal parts liberating and beautiful, but equal parts horrifying because it's hard for me to say to my clients like it's liberating because it has nothing to do with you, nothing to do with you, but also your ego's. involved.

00:29:28:11 - 00:29:40:06
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
What do you mean? So this was all a fake thing, and it had nothing to do with me. Yes, that's exactly right. It has nothing to do with you. So you're equal parts horrified because you're like. So I was never a part of this. I wasn't even seen for a second. No, you were not seeing for a second.

00:29:40:07 - 00:29:47:13
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
That's horrifying. But also, it's brilliant because you really get the clarity. It has nothing to do with you. Nothing.

00:29:47:16 - 00:30:13:06
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. I think that depersonalization piece I watch so many women struggle with that because. What do you mean? He didn't love me? None of it was real. He lied. It was all a facade right from the beginning. Yeah. And it's the hardest thing for people to to get. I mean, I'm with. It's painful. I don't feel like this is a fabulous piece of news, but the women that struggle, the most with that, it takes a little bit longer, because you have to get yourself to this place where you get it.

00:30:13:06 - 00:30:33:12
Lisa Sonni
It was on purpose. There's a really, deep intentionality behind abuse. And this whole like, well, if he's a narcissist, he can't help it. I don't fffff care what people can help. If you're abusive, you're abusive, and to flatter will even care about the label of narcissist either. But there is something so different about this and the psychological damage that's done.

00:30:33:12 - 00:30:49:22
Lisa Sonni
People don't understand, like the weight of it and how it is intentional. They fundamentally it's a bit of an oversimplification, but they know what they're doing. They're doing it on purpose. I know they're not all calculated. They don't all wake up like, ooh, how can I rip Vanessa's heart out today? But they don't care that you get your heart ripped out.

00:30:49:22 - 00:30:55:20
Lisa Sonni
Is that better? If they knew and did it on purpose? Or if they do it knowing and they don't care. Yeah, it's.

00:30:56:01 - 00:31:14:00
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
I feel like the way they are. I think they are quote unquote winning. And they can never be in a position of losing. And so to that end, anything that gets or anyone that gets in their way is going to get trampled. And the way they do that is through manipulation that I believe they learn very, very early on.

00:31:14:00 - 00:31:33:14
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
And so, the idea that they would that they can change or they would want it, they don't. They like the way they are. They are winning. They're not wrong. You know, we see one out of four CEOs is a psychopath directly. So they're doing really well. And they're not going to change that. And they, you know, if they're not a CEO or if they're the homeless version of this, they are disenfranchized millionaires

00:31:33:14 - 00:31:40:19
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
and they're going to, in their minds, have still this grandiose sense of self. And they'll be working towards that goal and they'll just trample everyone in their path.

00:31:40:19 - 00:32:02:19
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. They don't care. I think like the biggest takeaway is they don't care. And so much of this is on purpose and they want to hook you and they want to keep you confused because the confusion then is such a big part of what keeps you in it. When you're like, I know he's bad, but he's also good. And you, you sit in this sort of circle of like hope and confusion and fear and love.

00:32:02:19 - 00:32:05:23
Lisa Sonni
It's not really love. It's such a big part of the addiction.

00:32:05:23 - 00:32:35:10
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
Yeah, it really is an addiction. And you have to titrate yourself off of it. You have to give yourself grace, and surround yourself with people that understand it until you can kind of get your self regulated. I use a lot of the five senses for my clients to get regulated and get, into a space of calm. And so, you know, having a pet, I can hear my dog barking, I apologize, you know, having lighting candles, cooking warm, nourishing meals, little things really, like repairing yourself.

00:32:35:13 - 00:32:59:16
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
Practice radical self-love. You can find those things in the five senses listening to, you know, calming music. Like, I love to listen to Benny Goodman or clarinet. It's like, like it's such a warm hug. And then you'll begin to feel your shoulders drop and sort of your face unclench and your brow and your your fists and sort of that trauma potentially, you know, you begin to rewire your brain out of, this trauma experience.

00:32:59:17 - 00:33:18:23
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
But there's a lot of beautiful silver linings out of when you get out of these things, like meeting people like yourself and others and beginning to help others heal and wonderful things. But it's it's a big undertaking. And and to your point, like the biggest part of it is to try to, you know, not just explain it to others, but you really have to learn yourself.

00:33:18:23 - 00:33:32:08
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
I think 80% of it is just learning. I was like taking in all of this information. At first I was like, you know, what even is this? And so you have to like, lean into that. And I think it takes like probably two years at minimum just to even get to baseline.

00:33:32:11 - 00:33:54:01
Lisa Sonni
That's sad. I know it's true though. It's so true. It really it's it's hard. But I joke we get a PhD in narcissistic abuse. I know it's not a thing. And, you have a you would have to go to an actual school to get a PhD of any kind. But I tell you, people feel like they know everything there is to possibly know about narcissism and NPD, because that's how you get yourself out, at least in the beginning.

00:33:54:01 - 00:34:18:01
Lisa Sonni
I don't think that's the transformational work towards the last half of healing. I feel like it has more to do with when you start looking inward, but that learning what gaslighting is and that you've been indoctrinated and that this is similar to a cult and what a trauma bond is and what's cognitive dissonance? All those things. I think it's hugely important, but a lot of people don't know what trauma bonding is, which is my main topic.

00:34:18:01 - 00:34:38:12
Lisa Sonni
And I actually want to kind of move into a segment of the show where I'm going to read you some comments. So this section of the podcast is called Real Talk. From the comments, I'm just going to read you two and tell me what you think of these comments. These are left on a video, where I was talking about how it feels like a cult and that it's really a trauma bond.

00:34:38:13 - 00:34:51:02
Lisa Sonni
That's why we're stuck. Okay, so. Here's the comment. Really, it's just women making excuses for staying in bad relationships. Nobody forced you. You could have left any time and you just didn't want to face the consequences of your own choices.

00:34:51:03 - 00:35:15:00
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
Well, I would say that when you're in a relationship with, coercive controller you really are not of sound mind, so you're not basically functioning on all cylinders. It feels very much like you're being puppeteered And so it's not that you are even consenting to what's happening. It's like somebody hijacked your brain very much like a Stockholm syndrome.

00:35:15:00 - 00:35:20:16
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
So I don't know that you're really have the ability to make those decisions in these environments.

00:35:20:16 - 00:35:34:06
Lisa Sonni
That's the piece that people are missing. I used to actually say to my ex that he was a puppet master, because it always felt like that he was pulling the strings. I could make my own decisions, but he was pulling the strings, so I didn't feel like I had free will. So many people will say that victims have free will.

00:35:34:06 - 00:35:40:04
Lisa Sonni
And I remember I was talking to Doctor Nadine Macaluso and she said that like, no, no, no, no, there's no free will.

00:35:40:06 - 00:35:40:19
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
There's no free.

00:35:40:19 - 00:35:55:00
Lisa Sonni
Will, not in this. Okay. So the next comment is comparing a relationship to a cult is absolutely ridiculous. A cult has leaders and brainwashing a boyfriend just wants respect and loyalty. And if you can't give him that, maybe you're the problem.

00:35:55:04 - 00:36:17:02
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
Hello, patriarchy. Yeah. I mean, that's just horseshhhh again, if you're dealing with somebody who is a master manipulator, this is not a boyfriend being, you know, fighting with a boyfriend. This is somebody who is positioned themselves to be in a hierarchical role where you will fall in line or you will be punished and you are addicted to that cycle.

00:36:17:02 - 00:36:40:22
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
So you find yourself without free will in those environments. This is not a standard breakup. I've had relationships with neurotypical people like my son's father is not a narcissist. I was very, very blessed to co-parent my son is 26 years old and he is, you know, his father is phenomenal and he's remarried and there's no issues. And I've had breakups with others.

00:36:40:22 - 00:37:03:05
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
Believe me, I have been on dating apps for a long time. This is completely different than a sort of standard breakup with a neurotypical person. And you're like, okay, this didn't work out, or even like an or even like an abuse. I don't want anything to do with you. This is your entire life becomes hijacked by like a personal terrorist.

00:37:03:05 - 00:37:23:12
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
It's totally different. It is not a standard scenario. This is not happening, with somebody who is even easy to maybe pick out. Maybe they are the poets, priests and politicians. This is your neighbor who's very beloved in the community. So you don't know what goes on behind closed doors. And and as a matter of fact, just shut the ffff up until you know.

00:37:23:16 - 00:37:37:20
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
And by the way, I say this about systemic racism, too. And, you know, if you don't live in a wheelchair, just shut up about, you know, what does it feel like to be in a wheelchair? You don't know if you don't know, just learn. Just be quiet and try to learn. Yeah, I try. A little bit of. This.

00:37:37:20 - 00:37:54:12
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
Yeah. I don't have, you know, I'm not a person of color. So if I'm in a room with people of color and they go to tell me what it's like to be a person of color, it's my job to become a student. So if you don't know, then just be quiet. And if you think you know and you're sounding off, then maybe we need to be more aware of what you are.

00:37:54:12 - 00:37:57:10
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
Maybe you're one of them. Maybe you're the problem, not me.

00:37:57:12 - 00:38:04:23
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, I say that like I do. Amount of people that go, I don't understand why. Why are you talking if you don't understand? You just said it.

00:38:05:00 - 00:38:05:06
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
It's just,

00:38:05:11 - 00:38:08:04
Lisa Sonni
You should become a student. I love that, actually.

00:38:08:06 - 00:38:23:11
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
When I was learning about Iron Man, you know, the first time I got on a bike and I had to learn how to pedal and all of my coaches were teaching me, I wasn't like, yeah, but I don't understand. Like, why does the know I was like, okay. They were like, you need to buy a Garmin shorts. I was like, okay, let me get to Amazon.

00:38:23:16 - 00:38:44:12
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
Bought myself some shorts, like, I'm not over here running my mouth about, you know, nuclear, you know, physicists, stuff like I don't if you don't know, it's cool. Just shut up and learn. It's okay. Like, yeah, just be a student. You know, I feel like some of the problems with victims, though, is that I was like a sponge. And you are such a good student.

00:38:44:12 - 00:38:53:03
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
You're like, okay, I'm eager to learn. Let you know. Put me in, coach, let's do this. But for for for those of you who don't get it, that's cool. Just try to learn from someone who gets it.

00:38:53:05 - 00:39:12:10
Lisa Sonni
Really? Just. That's simple in my mind. Like, my God, brainwashing and indoctrination and all of this. Like the love bombing. It's brutal to go through and getting out of it. We don't need extra layers of shame. And oh, you picked dumb and I would never like. We just don't need any of that horseshit, as you've called it. And I love it.

00:39:12:10 - 00:39:35:18
Lisa Sonni
So I think, you know, breaking free is possible for people, but getting out of these relationships, it's really going to start with the recognition. And I think that community is really important. And frankly, dismantling the fantasy and the illusion of what they were. So I'm so glad to have had this conversation with you, and I would love for people to know where to find you on social media and tell us about your book.

00:39:35:21 - 00:39:56:16
Vanessa Reiser LCSW
Sure. So you can find me at Vanessa Riser LCS w on Instagram. My website is tell T-E-L-L a therapist dot net for those of you looking for clinical services and my book Narcissistic Abuse: A Therapist Guide to Identifying, Escaping, and Healing from Toxic and Manipulative People is available on Amazon.

00:39:56:18 - 00:40:10:00
Lisa Sonni
That's amazing. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Lisa. If this episode gave you clarity. Share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember, you're stronger than before.

00:40:10:01 - 00:40:14:06
Music
Stronger than before.