When “You Owe Him Sex” Is Abuse w/ Dr. Danielle Kramer | S2E9

If you’ve ever said yes to sex when every part of you wanted to say no, that’s not “being a good partner,” It’s coercion. 

Coercion is abuse.

Lisa sits down with certified sex therapist and clinical sexologist Dr. Danielle Kramer to talk about sexual coercion, consent, and how entitlement destroys intimacy. They unpack the cultural conditioning that teaches men to pursue and women to comply — and how that conditioning turns connection into control.

Dr. Kramer breaks down the difference between persuasion and coercion, how purity culture fuels sexual shame, and what healing looks like when you’ve been taught your body is an obligation.

This conversation will make you rethink what real consent and intimacy actually mean — and remind you that sex isn’t something done to you. It’s something done with you.

Transcript

00:00:00:06 - 00:00:08:17
Music


00:00:08:19 - 00:00:33:12
Lisa Sonni
This is real talk with Lisa Sonni Relationships Uncensored, the podcast. They don't want you listening to. If you have ever said yes in a relationship to sex, when every part of you wanted to say no. That's coercion. And the truth is, coercion is actually abuse. And it's rooted in this belief that men are just entitled to women's bodies, and it doesn't protect the relationship.

00:00:33:12 - 00:00:55:16
Lisa Sonni
It actually destroys the intimacy. And it makes real connection impossible. Today, I am sitting down with Doctor Danielle Kramer, a sex therapist and clinical sexologist, and we're going to talk about sexual coercion, which is a really, you know, horrible topic that needs to be talked about because too many women are experiencing it. So I'd love to turn this over to you and just have you kind of introduce yourself.

00:00:55:20 - 00:01:18:21
Dr. Danielle Kramer
My name is Doctor Gayle Kramer. I go by Danny. Thank you for having me. I'm a certified sex therapist and a board certified clinical psychologist. And I do part time clinical work, part time research. So in research, I focus heavily on Ahab and women's health care. So things like reproductive justice, abortion care and access. And then in my clinical work, I focus on the individual and couples work.

00:01:18:21 - 00:01:39:17
Dr. Danielle Kramer
I do a lot of religious deconstruction. So a lot of purity culture deconstruction. And I do a lot of work on, like helping couples develop a healthy sex life and a healthy kind of sexual ethos. That feels really good. And authentic to them, which can be really difficult in the society that we're raised in. So it kind of developed like a good, healthy sexual foundation.

00:01:39:20 - 00:02:00:17
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, I think that's so important. I mean, there's so much to be said for like where this all comes from and the beliefs that women hold and men hold and what we're taught and how that affects relationships that we end up in, I know I was not, really prepared to be. I mean, nobody's prepared, but I wasn't prepared to be in a coercive relationship.

00:02:00:19 - 00:02:22:22
Lisa Sonni
And and I didn't recognize it. You know, when I was in this relationship, I'd experienced all kinds of abuse. But it wasn't until, well, after maybe 18 months or so after I left that I was like, oh my God. I also experienced sexual abuse. I was coerced, and I was told that I was the problem. Right? There was something wrong with me for not wanting to sleep with somebody who I was in a relationship with.

00:02:22:22 - 00:02:35:16
Lisa Sonni
Right. I'm broken. And he wanted to go to a sex therapist. So sometimes I wonder, like, what would you have said? You know, what do he what do you tell couples when you are sitting with them? Or tell women even when you're sitting with them, who may not recognize it?

00:02:35:20 - 00:02:55:14
Dr. Danielle Kramer
So often I have women come by themselves that I think that would be like the most common way that I see people. I often have women come and say, you know, I wanted this to be couples therapy, but my partner wouldn't come. That's very common for the man to, like, decline or abuse, that the man will send the woman to therapy and say like something is wrong with you. You need to go get pissed.

00:02:55:16 - 00:03:15:02
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Something is wrong with you. So you never make assumptions, right? You start with a blank slate and you just start asking questions and you explore that with curiosity. That's kind of like the big thing in therapy. We don't judge and we explore with curiosity. We don't make any assumptions. So I have people, you know, describe the sex that you're having right now, like, tell me about the sex that you're having right now.

00:03:15:04 - 00:03:33:08
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Do you enjoy the sex that you're having right now? Which kind of sounds silly, but you'd be shocked how many people are not enjoying the sex that they're having right now, but they are having sex, right? And then you talk to people about, tell me some of the barriers that you have to having sex, like what comes up for you when somebody tries to initiate sex with you?

00:03:33:14 - 00:03:57:06
Dr. Danielle Kramer
How does that make you feel? How does it feel in your body? And then you start asking them, you know, like, what does initiation of sex look like in your household? Who's most likely to initiate? What does that look like? How does that make you feel when that person does initiate? And that's when you start to see some evidence of coercion start to come out, and they'll say things like, well, my husband like, you know, he expects sex like 2 to 3 times a week and like he keeps track.

00:03:57:10 - 00:04:12:10
Dr. Danielle Kramer
So if it's been a couple days, he'll be like, you know, it's been three days. And so I know that if it's been three days, I can't say no. The next day. Why can't you say no? What happens when you say no? Right. He throws a fit. You really have to dig in and explore that.

00:04:12:15 - 00:04:36:12
Lisa Sonni
I don't know, like, I think I would have said that. I could say no, I don't think I understood that. I absolutely couldn't because you can't say no. Meaning what, he hits you? No. Right. He just pouts, sulks, makes comments, tells you there's something wrong with you. Threatens to cheat. I mean, the language around coercion. It's a much bigger spectrum than I ever realized, right?

00:04:36:12 - 00:04:55:18
Lisa Sonni
In anything from like, it's your duty, you have to. And sort of using obligation or blackmail threats like, this is why men cheat or this is why men suicide rates are so high or, you know, other wives want to or, you know, so-and-so has sex with her husband. What's wrong with you? What do you think these men are thinking

00:04:55:18 - 00:05:12:21
Dr. Danielle Kramer
So I think men are something that I talk about often, is we have to look at what our sex education looks like in this country, because that's kind of everyone's foundation. Let's be real. Most parents are not talking to their kids about sex, and if they are, it's like very bare bones stuff, right? It's like, this is how babies are made.

00:05:13:01 - 00:05:29:18
Dr. Danielle Kramer
And this is something that you'll do later in your life, but don't you dare do it now. I'm like, it's very, very, like I said, very bare bones and very like we don't talk about consent often to our kids. Not that I see anyway. There's good studies that show that, like most kids, by the time they hit college don't know that much about consent.

00:05:29:20 - 00:05:49:23
Dr. Danielle Kramer
They may not know what, like we call FRIES consent, we go based off of FRIES consent, which is freely given, reversible, informed, excited, and specific. Most of them have never heard of that. Right? So in our country, we teach sex ed from a male pleasure focused standpoint. So we talk about male orgasms and male pleasure, but we don't ever talk about female pleasure.

00:05:49:23 - 00:06:08:05
Dr. Danielle Kramer
And we also talk about it from a standpoint of women being the sexual gatekeepers, which is part of purity culture. And that's also part of this male perversion is normal. So in our schools and our public schools and in our private schools, we're generally teaching kids that sexual coercion from men is normal. That's a normal part of men's sexuality.

00:06:08:11 - 00:06:21:20
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Men are going to push their boundaries. They're going to try to convince you to do something you don't want to do. Boys will be boys, right? So it's your job as a woman to say, no, it's your job as a woman to put up boundaries. It's your job as a woman to say, I don't want to do that.

00:06:21:20 - 00:06:40:14
Dr. Danielle Kramer
And he's going to push that. He's going to try to convince you. He's going to say things like, well, if you really love me, that sexual coercion, he's going to say things like, well, you know, this is how men cheat on their girlfriends, that sexual coercion. But we teach this as normal. We teach girls. Boys are going to say these things to you, and that's normal.

00:06:40:15 - 00:06:57:00
Dr. Danielle Kramer
But then boys also hear, well, I can sexually force women. I'm supposed to try it like it's the dominant thing, right? She's going to say no, but it's a game. And if I can get her to say yes. And then this carries over into marriages and we all act up like, oh my gosh, I can't believe that he's threatening to cheat on you.

00:06:57:00 - 00:07:12:07
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Oh my gosh, I can't believe that you feel like you have to have sex with your husband every three days, which comes from like a specific evangelical book, not any kind of a real study. That three days idea. But then we can't act surprised because this is the sexual foundation from which our kids are working off of. Right?

00:07:12:10 - 00:07:33:22
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. It really makes so much sense when you put it like that under that framework. Because I'm not a man, I'm a woman. I know what I was taught and that they want it and that they're going to try to get it from you. That's so how I was raised. But if boys are hearing the same thing that they're hearing, maybe inadvertently, maybe not, that that's expected of them to coerce.

00:07:33:22 - 00:07:49:19
Lisa Sonni
Except this is where I find it kind of interesting, because in the rare circumstances that I have regretfully found myself in a conversation with a man on this topic, they seem to feel like it's just persuasion. She said yes. What's the difference between persuasion and coercion?

00:07:50:00 - 00:08:10:06
Dr. Danielle Kramer
So I kind of think of this as responsive desire. So we if we think about like the dual control model of sexual desire, one of it is spontaneous desire. Like, okay, I want sex, right? And then the other one is responsive desire. You have to give me something to respond to, whether that's connection or some form of intimacy or some form of touch.

00:08:10:12 - 00:08:28:00
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Right. Like cuddling on the couch or something like that. So you have to give me something to respond to in order for me to feel sexy, in order for me to, like, get into that sexy space with you. So for me, there's a difference between giving me something to respond to, which is noticing and paying attention to my

00:08:28:00 - 00:08:55:06
Dr. Danielle Kramer
consent. The goal at the end of response and desire is your enthusiastic consent, and I, as your partner and detached from the outcome. I don't have a predetermined outcome I'm trying to get us to. I'm just trying to get us to connection. I'm trying to get you to relax and to exist in this space with me. And if that leads to sexy time, which of course I want, but your comfort and your yes means more to me than what I want. So I'm not

00:08:55:06 - 00:09:14:17
Dr. Danielle Kramer
focused on my needs. Persuasion is focused on my needs, and I'm trying to get to my needs no matter how I get there. Right? Giving you something to respond to is focusing on your needs, and it's saying, are you comfortable? How do you feel right now? Does this feel good to you? Can I start giving you a back massage? And you're like, actually, I just I don't I just don't want to be touched right now.

00:09:14:20 - 00:09:35:12
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Okay. No problem at all. Right. So I back off as soon as I notice that enthusiastic consent is not there, I back off or I check in with you and I say, how are you feeling? Do you still feel okay? Should we keep going or do you need me to pull back? Right? Persuasions. I care about my needs and I'm trying to get to a predetermined goal, response and desire.

00:09:35:12 - 00:09:44:01
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Meeting my partner in their responsive desire is, hey, let's connect and spend this time together, and I'm detached from the outcome. Wherever this goes, it does, and I'm okay with that.

00:09:44:05 - 00:09:51:20
Lisa Sonni
Oh, what a good example. And I can just hear the men. Yeah, but if I do that then then we'll never have sex. I can just hear it.

00:09:52:01 - 00:10:10:01
Dr. Danielle Kramer
So I hear that often. I hear men say like, well, if I did that, she'd never want to have sex with me. That's probably true. In your relationship, because you have set up a system of coercion. order for me to say yes, I have to feel calm and comfortable and confident that my know will be respected and it will be okay.

00:10:10:01 - 00:10:28:01
Dr. Danielle Kramer
There will be no consequences. I'm not going to get silent treatment. I'm not going to get you pouting. I'm not going to get you guilt for being me. I'm not going to get threats, whether explicit threats or covert threats. Right? Like if I walk away and I'm like, well, this is why some husbands cheat. I'm not directly threatening you, but I am right.

00:10:28:01 - 00:10:48:16
Dr. Danielle Kramer
It's an explicit threat. It's me saying, well, if this continues, I don't know. Right? So if you have set up those conditions in your marriage and your relationship, then yeah, that's going to take time and space to heal for both of you. It's going to take you to heal that entitlement and you to give her space. Because the other thing is going back with it.

00:10:48:20 - 00:11:15:09
Dr. Danielle Kramer
When we set up that sexuality of like, women are gatekeepers and men are the pursuers, where is the space for my sexuality? Because in that framework, my sexuality only exists in response to his. I don't have my own sexuality, right? Men are the pursuer. I'm the gatekeeper. There's no space for my sexuality. So when you tell me, well, if I back off of all that and I do that, she's never going to have sex with me, that's probably going to be true for a while, right?

00:11:15:10 - 00:11:37:01
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Sometimes in healing, things have to get worse a little bit before they get better. But you need to give her space to have her own sexual response, her own sexual desire. You may not even know what that looks like because you've never given her space to express it, but with healing, with her starting to understand that this isn't about coercion, this is about sex that we're going to do together. Not something you're going to do to me

00:11:37:01 - 00:11:41:19
Dr. Danielle Kramer
and I give to you. This isn't something done to women, it's something done with women

00:11:41:23 - 00:12:04:12
Lisa Sonni
I see this in the comment section so often of like this it men want sex and women have to give it or not give it. as you describe the gatekeeper, but they think that they're getting it from women. There's nothing about women's pleasure or women really participating. It's just like a thing that you do to a woman. So it really speaks to not seeing women as human and not seeing them as part of it.

00:12:04:14 - 00:12:28:04
Lisa Sonni
I hear a lot of men say things like, women don't like sex, which I think just it bring up every feminist, sarcastic bone in my body of like, she doesn't like sex with you. Women do like sex. You've just identified the problem without even realizing it. It actually almost makes me laugh. At this point in my life, when men say that that women don't like sex, I'm like all women that you've experienced. Well, boy, tell

00:12:28:04 - 00:12:28:17
Dr. Danielle Kramer
myself

00:12:28:17 - 00:12:48:18
Lisa Sonni
you just said something. Yeah. Oh. How embarrassing. I play with them online like that to make them feel bad a little bit, because I don't know, I'm. I'm pro shaming, coercive men. But deeper than this, there's a real entitlement that you keep talking about here, that they believe that they should have this. Like, why be in a relationship if you aren't getting regular sex?

00:12:48:18 - 00:12:56:11
Lisa Sonni
That's the point. But how are men destroying their own sex lives? Because that's what I'm hearing here. They're doing this to themselves.

00:12:56:16 - 00:13:20:04
Dr. Danielle Kramer
They are. So when we use this language of like withholding sex, right, that reveals an entitlement mindset. So when any time someone says to me like, well, so-and-so's withholding tax or she's withholding tax, right, that is an entitlement mindset. And when you have an entitlement mindset, you cannot have preexisting consent. Right? Because I'm entitled to your body. We often will hear men say like, well, sex is a need.

00:13:20:07 - 00:13:41:06
Dr. Danielle Kramer
It's not. No one died without it. Food is a need, right? Needs are things that your body needs to survive. Food, water, clothing, shelter, things like that. Right? These are human needs. I will die without them. Or at least my health. And everything will significantly deteriorate to the point of long term. I will eventually die. Nobody has died without sex.

00:13:41:11 - 00:14:01:01
Dr. Danielle Kramer
And then I get the argument like, well, the human population will die off. That's not what we're talking about. We're not talking about macro level. We're talking about you right in this relationship. Right? Yeah. So when you don't leave space for her sexuality, right. When I'm entitled to sex with you, then that means that sex is something that you provide me as a duty, right?

00:14:01:01 - 00:14:27:20
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Like you have to provide this as a service in a relationship. Well, what do studies show us happens when we hold that mindset in a relationship? It shows us women's libidos tank because there's no space for them to have sexual expression. My only sexual expression is me performing a duty for you. We also find, which is really sad when women themselves hold this mindset, when women themselves buy into the mindset because that even matters to that. I own that we see more sexual pain.

00:14:27:23 - 00:14:51:08
Dr. Danielle Kramer
We see things like vaginismus, which is a physiological response that your body is having to being forced into having sex that you don't actually want to have. Right. So do you want to have sex then when your libido is tanked, when there's no space for your sexual expression, and when you're having pain during sex because of this withholding and this entitlement mindset, no women are going to want to have that.

00:14:51:10 - 00:15:22:15
Lisa Sonni
of course, you know, if you're not centered in it at all, why? Like, what's the point? You know, to men's point, it's for both people. So if the men are being centered and women are not part of it, or women's pleasure is not part of it, it's going to feel awful. In addition to being coerced and not being able to say no. So, I mean, you kind of touched on and I'm just thinking about is how some of these coercive men demand that you finish like they they are trying to center you, or it seems like they are in it like you,

00:15:22:15 - 00:15:40:16
Lisa Sonni
you have to finish kind of way. And I have spoken with so many women that are like, I just fake it because, like, he won't stop. It. Go on for 45 minutes unless I just pretend that I could see how a woman would think, well, he cares about my pleasure, but what's your take on that? Because I don't think he cares at all.

00:15:40:19 - 00:15:58:22
Dr. Danielle Kramer
No. So I go back to that idea of like, persuasion versus giving you something to respond to in that moment. I care about my own needs and ego. It's not actually about you finding pleasure, and it's not about me finding what's pleasurable to you. Right? If I really want to give you pleasure, then I'm going to be curious.

00:15:59:03 - 00:16:20:01
Dr. Danielle Kramer
I'm going to say, does it feel better here or here? Do you like this better here or here? Show me how you do it on yourself. Right. Like if you can get yourself there, teach me how you do that. I care about your pleasure. But what's actually happening there is. I care about my ego. I don't want you to finish because we're doing this together and this is a team effort I want you to finish so I can feel good about myself so

00:16:20:05 - 00:16:38:04
Dr. Danielle Kramer
I can walk out of this room being like, yeah, I'm the man. Like, I got her to finish. And. And she enjoyed it, right? But what's happening in women is what you describe this like pressure scenario in their head. That is the opposite of orgasm. Orgasm is being in my body, feeling that tension and releasing and letting go.

00:16:38:08 - 00:16:50:06
Dr. Danielle Kramer
If I have pressure to meet a certain outcome, that is the opposite of where we're trying to go right now. I'm solution focused, and I feel this pressure to do this for you. That's not going to get anybody to orgasm.

00:16:50:10 - 00:17:08:08
Lisa Sonni
Yeah definitely not. It's the ego piece is so clear you know and I think nobody wants to participate if they have to perform this act. Nor is it sexy if it's an obligation. Like I cannot tell you how many times it was like but we're in a relationship. But I can't do this with anybody else. But you have to.

00:17:08:08 - 00:17:30:20
Lisa Sonni
But it's been a week, but and always something. And it's like, I could never explain it. And it's interesting because the argument that I had, this is my experience, but I talked to so many women who share this that it almost becomes a transaction, like you're explaining as a person who's not a sex therapist, right? Just a woman who was trying to find the right words to explain to her husband why she doesn't feel so inclined.

00:17:30:20 - 00:17:45:07
Lisa Sonni
And it's like, maybe you say something like, I want to feel connected to you and you know, you. You're mean to me sometimes, and I just don't. And it's like, oh, so I have to be nice to you. Fine. Okay, well, I've been nice to you for a week, and it didn't result in sex, so what's the point?

00:17:45:11 - 00:17:57:08
Lisa Sonni
Like this is just straight abuse, right? I mean, we're beyond sexual abuse now. We're talking emotional and psychological abuse. But what do you sort of say to that mindset, like for to a woman who's experiencing a man that comes at her that way.

00:17:57:13 - 00:18:17:11
Dr. Danielle Kramer
So it makes me think of the idea of like what you had said so earlier about transactional relationships. Right. I've been nice to you for a week. Where's my cookie? Where's my. Reward? Where's my outcome? Right. That's transactional. That's that's a direct give and take that I gave you something. Where's my price? I paid my dues. Where's my paycheck?

00:18:17:13 - 00:18:43:18
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Right. Relationships should not exist. Healthy good dynamics and relationships should not exist on transactions, right? Nothing. These should not be transactional. It this should be an empathetic relationship where the reciprocity. Right. I go back to a relationship reciprocity. It should involve mutual support. It should come out of genuine care and concern. I genuinely care about you. I genuinely want you to be comfortable and happy.

00:18:43:19 - 00:19:06:01
Dr. Danielle Kramer
I'm not expecting anything in return. I trust because we exist in a reciprocal relationship. I trust that you're going to give that mutual support back. I trust that when I need you, you're going to show up, right? That doesn't have to do with sex necessarily, but good, healthy sex comes out of this. Sex is a natural byproduct of a good, healthy relationship for most people.

00:19:06:04 - 00:19:30:04
Dr. Danielle Kramer
There are asexual people out there that exist. And people in this on a spectrum, right? But when men are saying like, well, my partner doesn't want to have sex with me, that's a symptom of something going on in the relationship. When you're a sex therapist, one of the first things you learn is sex is usually not the problem. It's usually a symptom of something else going on in the relationship, because good, healthy sex for both parties is a natural outcome of a good, healthy relationship.

00:19:30:07 - 00:19:51:10
Lisa Sonni
Which seems so obvious to me. Like you really had to say that out loud, but I get it. And people don't necessarily see it that way. I don't think what you said is subjective at all. I think that you just stated a fact, and when you create this transactional like I did the dishes. So where's my sex? It's like, that's not what we mean.

00:19:51:10 - 00:20:06:21
Lisa Sonni
Or because you hear this sort of like make her feel supported and maybe she's doing too much around the house. Maybe. So like, take some of this off her plate. And then he's like, well, I just did the dishes and I mowed the lawn, so where's my sex? But I think, again, it's that framework of him seeing it as something that he's owed,

00:20:06:23 - 00:20:29:07
Lisa Sonni
and he created the transactional nature of that when what she's asking for is connection and emotion. And I know not all women, need emotion to participate in sex. But you see that pretty commonly in at least in, in relationships, right, where women want to feel emotionally connected. But men kind of go back to like, it's the only way I feel loved.

00:20:29:07 - 00:20:46:23
Lisa Sonni
And oh, so you get this. I'm thinking what mine used to say was, so you get to feel loved. you need that emotional connection and all that. Well, I need sex, so I can't be nice to you without the sex. You have to give me the sex for me to be nice to you. And I'm like, what? I have to give you sex to earn human decency.

00:20:47:04 - 00:21:04:22
Dr. Danielle Kramer
So the other thing I often say in response to that, right, is. So you've never felt love before until you were in this relationship, and then they're like, well, wait, what do you mean? So, like, from your parents, from your aunts, your grandparents, sisters, brothers, friends, you've never felt love before. And they're like, well, no, of course I have.

00:21:04:22 - 00:21:26:18
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Oh, so you were able to feel love in those other relationships. So what is it about this relationship that sex is the only way you feel love? And the other thing is that's very insulting for your wife or your female partner, right? They're like, wow, I cook us two meals a day. Wow. I do all these other things for you, right?

00:21:26:18 - 00:21:41:04
Dr. Danielle Kramer
I keep our house clean. I take care of our kids, I do this, I do this, and none of that matters. None of that makes you feel love. That entire slate is wiped clean. If I don't perform this one activity for you, that's very insulting.

00:21:41:04 - 00:21:59:19
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, I completely agree. I actually remember his mother taught me how to fold his underwear in a way that she thought was just like this perfect little thing, and he saw his drawer that I had now folded the way that I was asked to by his mother. And he was like, oh my God, I feel so loved. And I actually

00:21:59:19 - 00:22:22:06
Lisa Sonni
remember that moment of being like, so you can feel loved without. So I actually vividly remember that like, oh, you just cut yourself in a lie. Proof that acts of service is also part of this. Even though speaking of acts of service, I really hate the book The Five Love Languages. I've done a podcast episode on that specifically because why is every man's love language, physical touch, and why?

00:22:22:06 - 00:22:49:16
Lisa Sonni
When you question and go into the depths of that, it's sex. It's not intimacy or touching or cuddling or massage. It's sex. Even massage. Right? When you said, like, getting a backrub, I was like, men only do that to get sex. They're like, I'll give you a massage. No, what I just heard is you are going to not give me a massage and we are going to have sex, which, if she doesn't want that or I think women just even might want the space to have a massage. And maybe it leads to sex and maybe it doesn't.

00:22:49:16 - 00:22:57:13
Lisa Sonni
But if it's not, if you don't know that that's that's what he's really after. How do you even enjoy a massage that you know is going to lead to something that you're not in the mood for?

00:22:57:15 - 00:23:20:06
Dr. Danielle Kramer
And that's that consent piece, right? Like that's part of that responsible desire thing is I have to be detached from the outcome. So, I have had a couple people in therapy where when they're menstruating, they get really bad lower back pain, just awful cramps. And stuff in the lower back. Right. And their wonderful male partners will be like, let me rub your back, turn around like we're sitting here watching TV,

00:23:20:06 - 00:23:35:06
Dr. Danielle Kramer
right? Turn around. Let me rub your lower back. Let me rub that for you. Like, does this feel good? Does it. Oh it does it make it hurt more? Okay. Like, let's try this. Or like, do you want me to get some massage oil? And it is completely detached from sex. They just see their partner in pain and they want to make them more comfortable.

00:23:35:06 - 00:23:53:22
Dr. Danielle Kramer
And their female partner trust he's not trying to get sex from me. He truly just sees me in pain and wants me to feel more comfortable. Do you think that when she's done menstruating, that's going to get you closer to sex or further away from sex? It's going to get you posted as sex. You're not doing that, to be clear, because that's transactional relationship.

00:23:54:02 - 00:24:13:09
Dr. Danielle Kramer
You're not doing that to get closer to sex. You're doing it because you genuinely care about your partner. So then when she's not menstruating, or sometimes even when she is, because like, that doesn't stop when she's not menstruating, right? And he's like, do you want a sexy back room? Two things happen. One that's connected to care and concern, right?

00:24:13:11 - 00:24:31:17
Dr. Danielle Kramer
I know you do this for me because you love me, not necessarily because you're expecting an outcome, but two. If I say yes to this back rub, I know I can say no to anything else that comes after that. I'm only saying yes to the bathroom. And because I know that he'll take my no and be totally fine with it, I can say yes to this back rub.

00:24:31:21 - 00:24:40:18
Dr. Danielle Kramer
And if it leads to sexy time, great. But if it doesn't, we're both okay with that too, right? That leaves space for consent. And it also leaves space for my impression of sexuality.

00:24:40:19 - 00:24:59:03
Lisa Sonni
actually, I was about to say that I wish that men understood that. But can we actually talk about the men that absolutely understand everything we just said and just don't care? Because I feel like that's very common, that men are like, oh, blah, blah blah. You women talking with the consent and marriage is consent or a relationship is consent.

00:24:59:03 - 00:25:27:07
Lisa Sonni
This is ridiculous and just sort of dismissing it all. Like, I really have this belief that men fundamentally I mean, not all not all men, but most men understand what we're saying and they don't care. I find that abusive men, because you may deal with men in your practice that sit down, whether it's part of a couple or individually, and they're like, I want to do better, or but I'm talking about maybe the men online or the men that these women who are my audience are married to are in relationships with.

00:25:27:07 - 00:25:42:13
Lisa Sonni
It's like they just don't care because all they want is the sex. How they get it doesn't matter. So I don't know that they feel bad about coercion at all. And I think they would probably reject the idea that this is coercion and that you and I are just too bitter old feminists or something.

00:25:42:15 - 00:26:08:01
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Yeah, I think so. Two prongs on that. And sometimes they're like intertwined right there. I will say there a Venn diagram. There's a lot of overlap. Right. So on one hand we have like weaponized incompetence essentially, you know, you've been told maybe your female partner has sent you like websites, things to read, podcast to listen to, trying to get you to understand, like maybe you didn't know before because you didn't have any good sex.

00:26:08:01 - 00:26:24:15
Dr. Danielle Kramer
That and you guys got married when you were like 23. Okay, fine. But the information is there if you wanted to seek it out. Right. And if your female partner is telling you that there's a problem here, I literally don't know hardly any woman that has not tried to impart wisdom on a man. Right. Like, here's some information.

00:26:24:15 - 00:26:39:18
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Please read it. Please learn. Right. So there's weaponizing confidence happening for sure. They don't see it because they don't want to see it. It benefits them more to not see it. It takes too much work for me to see it. If I see it, I have to do work. I have to try to communicate with you. I have to respect your no.

00:26:39:20 - 00:27:05:00
Dr. Danielle Kramer
But your no may not meet my needs. Right. And then we have the other side of men that like. Yeah, you're right, there are some that naturally just don't know. We are raised in a patriarchal society. We are raised in a society that teaches that sex is something that men take, and women give. And if the more you're raised in like purity culture and that kind of upbringing, it doesn't even have to be religious focus because we teach purity culture in public school education.

00:27:05:00 - 00:27:23:16
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Right? So that's how sex that is generally taught in schools is from this abstinence based standpoint. That is purity culture. So when we have that, we have men that truly grow up believing this mentality. And when you try to tell them like, no, you're not entitled to sex, they're super offended. They're like, what do you mean? What do you mean?

00:27:23:16 - 00:27:45:12
Dr. Danielle Kramer
I'm not? Like you said, a relationship is consent. And then you say like, well, what about women's bodily autonomy, right? Like we have to recognize that sex is different. Getting food, getting water that doesn't require the use of someone else's body. Sex requires someone else's body. You're not entitled to someone else's body. And for some men, they have literally never heard that before in their entire lives.

00:27:45:18 - 00:27:50:10
Dr. Danielle Kramer
So I do think you could then diagram how much that overlaps depends on the person.

00:27:50:13 - 00:28:13:12
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. Which is so sad. You know, again, the the women that I primarily speak to in my coaching practice is women who I'm telling you their husbands would not care if they felt coerced, you know, and even okay, so she didn't really want to, but whatever. I just want to say the quiet part out loud. For women that are listening to this, non-consensual sex has a name.

00:28:13:12 - 00:28:17:00
Lisa Sonni
There's a different word for that. What? What word would you use.

00:28:17:00 - 00:28:18:12
Dr. Danielle Kramer
That sexual assault. Right.

00:28:18:16 - 00:28:48:15
Lisa Sonni
It's it's that simple. There. It's it's not there's non-consensual sex isn't isn't a thing because it's sort of I don't know that waters down the messaging of like it's it's still sex. It's an assault. And the interesting thing is, I know for me, I didn't recognize that as an assault when it was happening. Like I said, I realized it probably 18 months after the relationship ended and it dawned on me that the reason my body was like, maybe shutting down isn't totally the right language, but like, I was not interested.

00:28:48:20 - 00:29:07:04
Lisa Sonni
I would recoil at the thought. I would hear the door open because he would come home late at night. I would hear the door open and I would run up the stairs, throw myself into bed so that he thought I was already sleeping so that I didn't have to like. That's the lengths I was going to. My body understood that it was a sexual assault, even though my brain didn't.

00:29:07:09 - 00:29:30:21
Lisa Sonni
I was shutting down and it was a normal human thing to not want to sleep with someone who is abusive to you, who doesn't respect your no, and who makes you feel like it's an obligation, like obligation. Oh, you're obligated. Oh. So sexy. Right? Like, ooh, take my clothes off. It's it's crazy to me that men could see this any other way. And yet I can't help but circle back to.

00:29:30:21 - 00:29:52:16
Lisa Sonni
I don't think they care. This group of men who are abusive. I don't think that they care because they just want it. And if you are coerced, whatever you women want to label it. I don't know that that matters to them because in the end, if they get it, they get it. They're using your body. And as long as they get off and even even the men whose egos are involved and they want you to get off, but they don't really care, they just want to feel good.

00:29:52:19 - 00:30:20:06
Lisa Sonni
It's all about them. And it's it's really sad. But the women that are going through it, like recognizing it, and that's why I wanted to have this conversation because I think recognizing it, naming it, I want women to really feel seen in this and know that this is sadly common. Now, one thing I see a lot is men saying not getting sex is abuse, because let's go back to what you were talking about with the withholding piece, which I hate the word withholding.

00:30:20:06 - 00:30:37:21
Lisa Sonni
You can't withhold sex. I will die on that hill. I sense that you agree. I hate that word. But I got a DM from a guy last week that said, you know, I'm in a narcissistic, abusive relationship. I take care of her. I do everything for her and she won't give me sex. I could immediately tell by his language, give me sex.

00:30:37:21 - 00:30:47:06
Lisa Sonni
Like I'm like, I don't buy that you're the victim here. But talk to me about those men who feel they are victims of abuse and that their their wives or girlfriends are withholding sex.

00:30:47:09 - 00:31:07:03
Dr. Danielle Kramer
So you can't withhold something that somebody was never entitled to, right? You can't withhold something that somebody else was never entitled to. And I have to repeat that over and over and over again to women in therapy. And to your point, like we're saying, abusive men. I want women to hear this. And understand that we're not talking. We're not just talking about men that hit you.

00:31:07:05 - 00:31:25:17
Dr. Danielle Kramer
We're not just talking about men that scream things that like, call you fat, call you ugly, whatever. We're talking about men that make you feel like you have to have duty sex. We're talking about men who give you the silent treatment, who are just, like, aloof and rude to you. If you don't give it to them. Right. Abuse doesn't have to be in your face screaming at you.

00:31:25:18 - 00:31:50:22
Dr. Danielle Kramer
It can be, like you said, an emotional manipulation, or it can be a very like psychologically quiet kind of abuse. Right? But there's no idea of withholding because withholding reveals entitlement. You can't withhold something. Some was not entitled to you in the first place, so sexual access to another person's body is never right, even within marriage. Even if you haven't had it for six months, even if you haven't had it for a year.

00:31:50:22 - 00:32:12:17
Dr. Danielle Kramer
If you're that unhappy, you can leave the relationship. If you truly lied to that man that sent you the message. If you truly believe that your wife or your girlfriend is a narcissistic abuser pressuring her into having sex she doesn't want to have makes two kinds of abuse existing in the relationship, then, right? Even if that's true, you're just adding abuse to abuse.

00:32:12:19 - 00:32:38:00
Dr. Danielle Kramer
You can't control her. So let's just pretend in this scenario that that's true. You can leave the relationship, you can go get therapy yourself, but you being abusive in response to someone else's abuse is not the answer. Right? That being said, what most men deem narcissistic abuse is usually her withholding sex. I pay the bills, I go to work, I do this, and in exchange, I deserve to get sex.

00:32:38:03 - 00:32:53:17
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Now we're right back to a transactional relationship. And when men talk like that, I want to be like, so, is your wife a prostitute? And then they get offended, right? You're like, of course not. Well, you just described to me how you put money in and you expect to get sex out. That sounds like a prostitute.

00:32:53:21 - 00:33:13:12
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, but then I honestly, I could you and I could roleplay this practically. Do you know what I mean? Like, no, you don't understand. No, I do, I think you don't understand. Right. Like they don't seem to. And again, I don't believe that they truly don't understand. Because when you start using analogies and you can kind of flip it on them and use a different example, they suddenly understand.

00:33:13:16 - 00:33:29:19
Lisa Sonni
And honestly, the most common one, if you get really snarky, I don't even want to say this online, but when you talk about, let's say, sexual acts that men may not, straight men may not want to participate in. But if you sort of say like, well, if I were to do something you don't like against your what if, it makes me happy?

00:33:29:19 - 00:33:56:21
Lisa Sonni
That's how I feel loved. He would he would totally be like, well, what the hell? No. Oh, you mean you're not okay if I just wake you up and put something in your body? You don't like that because men do that. Women. I have clients who are asleep, and their husbands wake them up in the middle of the night doing something or the joke of, like putting sleepy meds in her wine or whatever to make her fall asleep so that you can get away with something in the middle of the night because she won't consent.

00:33:57:01 - 00:34:30:02
Lisa Sonni
Like this. This is just this is happening to too many women, and it's such a broad spectrum. But I know too many women that are feeling especially religious women. Right? Christian women who are dealing with this like I'm withholding. So something's wrong with me. And and they feel trapped. They don't know how to get out of it. And they feel like they love their husband and there's something wrong with them, and they don't actually realize that he's abusive and that he's creating this especially for the men that you're talking about, or the group of women that he's not yelling at you, he's not hitting you, he's not calling you names.

00:34:30:04 - 00:34:35:16
Lisa Sonni
He's not doing anything other than this. That's still abuse. Coercion is always abuse.

00:34:35:18 - 00:34:57:22
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Where anything that undermines consent is coercion, and coercion is always abuse. And the very language of withholding sex assumes ownership over someone else's body. Right? That just that very idea of withholding assumes that you have ownership over my body. You don't even in a marriage, you have bodily autonomy. You get to go to the doctor and make your own medical decisions.

00:34:57:22 - 00:35:18:10
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Right? Generally, look, I get it. Women can't get hysterectomy. That aside, generally you get to go to the doctor and make your own choices about your own body, right? That's bodily autonomy. You don't lose that just because you're in a relationship. And when we talk about how common this is, I want women listening to hear 20%. We think it's actually quite higher, right?

00:35:18:10 - 00:35:40:12
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Just like we know that we don't get full reports on sexual assault, a minimum of 20% of women are experiencing coercion in their relationship right now, not have at some point in their lifetime. 20% of women right now are in a relationship where they're experiencing sexual coercion. That means if you have five friends in a room with you, one of you is experiencing sexual coercion from a partner.

00:35:40:17 - 00:35:42:03
Dr. Danielle Kramer
It's extremely honest.

00:35:42:06 - 00:35:59:13
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, because I know I mean, the women that I talk to, you feel broken in like they're failing. And I going back to the religion piece, even like you should submit to your husband and I know I have clients that also say, like, you know, I've said to him, you know, if if you wanted, if I wanted to and you didn't, are you telling me you would say yes?

00:35:59:13 - 00:36:18:23
Lisa Sonni
And men are always like, of course I would. Of course I would say yes. I don't think so. I don't agree, because men are taking it from the perspective that they would never not want it, which I think is also a whole separate topic, of course, but it feeds this idea that men always want it, which only leads men to possibly have issues in abuse as well.

00:36:18:23 - 00:36:35:10
Lisa Sonni
But it is what it is. It's brutal. It's really, really hard, for so many people to really, I don't know, come to terms with this. But all this to say, I want to take you to a little section of the podcast called Real Talk from the comment section. So I'm going to read you a couple of comments that people have left.

00:36:35:10 - 00:36:47:20
Lisa Sonni
Say people, you'll know who left them quickly. And I just want to see your reaction right before we we wrap the episode. Well, this one's perfect. Actually, women weaponize sex all the time. Men wouldn't have to pressure you if you didn't withhold it in the first place.

00:36:48:00 - 00:37:11:16
Dr. Danielle Kramer
You can't withhold something you're not entitled to, right? Right. That blame, right? Like that mentality of entitlement is why she doesn't want to have sex with you. Back to your point. Like women's bodies, no. If women listening to this podcast, like, check in with your body, you know, right? When a man is pressuring you to have sex, your mouth might be saying like, yeah, okay, I guess you feel it in your body.

00:37:11:16 - 00:37:31:00
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Your body feels that anxiety. I have women tell me, like, my body feels like I'm vibrating with anxiety and I just hate it, I hate it, I, I can't even stand and touching me, but I have to go through with it, right. You can't withhold something that somebody is not entitled to so that you can't weaponize sex because you're not entitled to sex in the first place.

00:37:31:01 - 00:37:48:04
Dr. Danielle Kramer
And let's just again, we're going to play this game. Right. So you're in a relationship with your partner and she is not she's refusing to have sex with you. Let's call it like withholding. So as a therapist, if I have you guys in that therapy room, I'm digging into that. What's making you move away from sex with him?

00:37:48:06 - 00:38:06:23
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Where are your barriers to sex? It's not enough. Why are you doing this judgmental kind of way? It's in a what's going on for you. And if men did that, if men explored that with curiosity instead of shame and blame. And you owe me this. Hey, babe, what's going on with you? Are you extra stressed at work right now?

00:38:06:23 - 00:38:24:13
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Or like sometimes women are having? I have a lot of women that are perimenopausal, right? So they're having hormonal changes and fluctuations. Their vaginal tissue is getting atrophy. So sex is actually becoming painful for them now. And it never was before. And they don't know how to tell somebody and they don't know how to talk to their male partners about it.

00:38:24:18 - 00:38:39:23
Dr. Danielle Kramer
But they also don't want to continue having painful sex. But imagine if you explored that with curiosity with your partner. Hey babe, we used to have like, really great sex, and I'm not judging you. I'm not blaming you. I'm just wondering what's going on with you. I'm seeing a shift. Can we talk about it? Give her. Yeah. Hey.

00:38:40:03 - 00:38:48:05
Dr. Danielle Kramer
But they don't. The more you push and push, the further and further she moves away, right? Yeah. Explore that with the mentality. Then, rather than shame and blame.

00:38:48:06 - 00:39:08:22
Lisa Sonni
Men need to care. Yeah. The curiosity piece is so there instead of the frustration or, or you could marry those two and be frustrated and curious, but the frustration will come through much more. So people need to take a step back. Here's the here's the final comment, which just, irks me so much. So now, every time a man wants sex and a woman isn't in the mood, he's an abuser.

00:39:08:22 - 00:39:09:19
Lisa Sonni
Give me a break.

00:39:09:23 - 00:39:31:16
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Consent. You are allowed to approach your partner. So this is what I call the invitation. There's a difference. Invitation is that response and desire. I want to give you something to respond to. There's a difference between pressure and creating an invitation. Are you pressuring them to get to your end goal and you care about only your needs, or are you creating an invitation?

00:39:31:21 - 00:39:53:19
Dr. Danielle Kramer
I'm inviting you to enter this space with me. I'm inviting you to, for some physical touch that is sexual, to call on the couch to have a conversation, an in-depth, connected conversation about how your day went or what's going on with you. That connection can lead to sex, right? And the other part of this that I often hear from men is like, well, men get to feel rejected.

00:39:53:19 - 00:40:12:15
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Like, well, I'm not, I'm not allowed to feel disappointed. You're allowed to feel disappointed. Disappointment is a valid human emotion. What you are not allowed to do is make that disappointment your partner's problem and use that as a coercive tactic. So not like my partner approaches me for sex sometimes and I'm like, babe, I just can't. I'm not.

00:40:12:18 - 00:40:26:21
Dr. Danielle Kramer
I like, you know, it's just for me. Period. I don't feel good. My stomach hurts, I'm not in mood or whatever. Or I might say, like, you know, I don't have the mood right now, but like, would you mind giving me a back rub? Like, my hips are really hurting. Can you give me a back rub in, like, you know, maybe we'll see where it goes.

00:40:27:01 - 00:40:46:07
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Sometimes it goes there, sometimes it doesn't. Right. But that's an invitation that is different than pressuring. If you're pressuring in work, like trying to coerce your partner. Yeah. That's abuse. If you're creating an invitation that has no attachments, you can say no at any time. You can reverse you. Yes. Right there. No, that's I'm abusive.

00:40:46:09 - 00:41:10:19
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. I wish like it's not that hard, man. If you want to if you want to understand this, it's it's right here. The information is very clear. But I want women to really know that you're not withholding. You're not being abusive. You are being abused. If any of this is happening to you, if you feel like you can't say no, you are in an abusive relationship and you may need to see a therapist, a sex therapist.

00:41:10:22 - 00:41:28:22
Lisa Sonni
But the truth is, I will always say this abusive men are not fixed in therapy because there's a lot of, entitlement and things that they need to address within themselves that is not for you to fix. But all that to say, where can we find you on social media? I want people to find your content.

00:41:29:03 - 00:41:38:08
Dr. Danielle Kramer
So on social media, on TikTok and Instagram, I'm in Bed With Danielle. And if you want therapy services, you can check out my website. It's inbedwithdanielle.com.

00:41:38:11 - 00:41:41:19
Lisa Sonni
Amazing. Thank you so much for being here and having this conversation with me.

00:41:42:00 - 00:41:44:00
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Thank you. Thanks. If

00:41:44:00 - 00:41:57:10
Lisa Sonni
this episode gave you clarity. Share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember, you're stronger than before. Stronger than before.