Why Gender Does Matter in Abuse Conversations w/ Rebecca Pacheco | S2E10

“Abuse isn’t gendered.”

That phrase gets thrown around every time women speak up. Yet,  it’s not true and it’s not harmless.

Lisa sits down with Rebecca Pacheco, Education and Development Manager at Embrave: Agency to End Violence, to break down why gender can’t be removed from the conversation on violence. Together they unpack the difference between domestic violence and gender-based violence, the patriarchal systems that sustain abuse, and how funding cuts and systemic neglect leave survivors with nowhere to turn.

Rebecca shares what life looks like on the front lines — shelters filled beyond capacity, survivors turned away, and the impossible choices women face when “just leaving” isn’t an option. 

This isn’t about politics or blaming men; it’s about naming the truth. Abuse is rooted in inequality, entitlement, and the belief that power belongs to one gender. Naming that truth is how we change it.

Transcript

00:00:00:06 - 00:00:08:17
Music


00:00:08:19 - 00:00:18:11
Lisa Sonni
This is real talk with Lisa Sonni Relationships Uncensored, the podcast they don't want you listening to.

00:00:18:12 - 00:00:39:16
Lisa Sonni
So I talk a lot about gender based violence online. And every time somebody likes to jump in with but men go through this to or abuse isn't gendered. And honestly, nobody's denying that men can be victims of abuse. I think we all know that. But I think what's interesting to me is that we're constantly asked to remove gender from gender based violence.

00:00:39:21 - 00:01:03:04
Lisa Sonni
That's the name of it. So it's there for a reason. There's a reason that the term exists, and I think it's important to really look at the difference between domestic violence and gender based violence. We don't need to make it political. It's not anti men. It's literally descriptive. And it's a pattern that exists all over the world. So I want to dig into that today and really talk about that term.

00:01:03:06 - 00:01:17:05
Lisa Sonni
You know talk about the people that it's affecting. And with me today is Rebecca Pacheco, who is the education and development manager for and brave. And I would love to just have you kind of introduce yourself and maybe tell us a little bit about your experience.

00:01:17:06 - 00:01:43:10
Rebecca Pecheco
Yeah. Hi. So, Thanks, Lisa. Yeah. My name is Rebecca Pacheco, and I'm the development and education manager at Embrave Agency to End Violence. And we are a gender based violence shelter that operates in the region of Peel And we support survivors of gender based violence. So, that includes for us women, gender queer, trans, non-binary and two spirit folks that are experiencing gender based violence, as well as their children that we welcome into the shelter.

00:01:43:10 - 00:02:02:21
Rebecca Pecheco
And specifically my work at and brave involves a lot of public education work. So talking a lot about gender based violence, what it means, why this is happening, what we can do about it, how we need to work together to address it. So a lot of my day, is is filled with these kinds of conversations around gender based violence.

00:02:03:02 - 00:02:12:05
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. So tell me, you know, on that note, like how how do you remove gender from this topic? Why is it so important that gender is part of this conversation?

00:02:12:05 - 00:02:49:06
Rebecca Pecheco
Yeah, we are specifically talking about gender based violence, like you said. And so the gender component of it is very important. As it differs to other forms of violence, which certainly exist, but within the realm of our work, specifically GBV, the G, is very important. And and specifically gender based violence is rooted in gender dynamics and inequities, power dynamics, that result because of patriarchal and misogynistic systems that unfortunately, often puts women, lower power structure and dynamics. compared to their male counterparts.

00:02:49:06 - 00:03:21:05
Rebecca Pecheco
And so certainly other forms of violence exist. It's not to say it doesn't, but it's to say when we're describing what is experienced by survivors of of what we're dealing with, we really need to think about the intersections of things like gender. In addition to other systems as well, things like racism, colonialism, and things like homophobia, transphobia, these are all things we need to take into consideration. That really when you're talking about gender based violence, you're able to see those intersections because it recognizes the role of gender in those systems.

00:03:21:08 - 00:03:40:17
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. Oh, that's so true. You know, and that's why I think I have this, like, visceral reaction to people being like, but men get abused too. I know, and it deserves to be talked about, but maybe not in the comment section of a video about women being abused because it doesn't heal. And I think. Actually. Not only does it not help, it actually ignores the cause.

00:03:40:17 - 00:04:14:22
Lisa Sonni
I feel like gender based violence really identifies and refers to violence that is rooted in inequality, entitlement. It happens because of someone's gender, where systemically anyway, women are not abusing men because they are men. But men are typically abusing women because they are women. So there's patriarchal misogyny. I just don't see how you can ignore that. You know domestic violence on a more broad scale intimate partner violence, stalking, sexual violence. Honor killings, forced marriage. Like it's it's so deep.

00:04:14:22 - 00:04:34:07
Lisa Sonni
It's so long trafficking. There's tons of things. But gender based violence is a bit more specific. It's actually I think fundamentally I think like we know this and I know men like to get all upset about it. But, you know, facts are facts, whether you believe them or not. Right. But abuse disproportionately targets women and girls because of their gender.

00:04:34:13 - 00:05:00:03
Lisa Sonni
So, I think it's it's so key to talk about it. men's violence against women is the most widespread and systemic form, and women's violence against men absolutely occurs. But it's just statistically smaller in scale. It's not as lethal. It's often not always reactive or defense. Sometimes to the specific situation and sometimes you know again more reactive to the systems and whatnot.

00:05:00:03 - 00:05:20:15
Lisa Sonni
But yeah it's just addresses the cause with. Absolutely. In your experience, you know, I mean like working in a shelter environment, something I hear when even when I talk about women's shelters, it's again men. Like, where are the men's shelters? What has it taken for women to have access to shelters and probably not enough access, but yeah. What is it taken?

00:05:20:17 - 00:05:45:20
Rebecca Pecheco
It's frustrating as a sector, right? Because we...our shelters always at capacity. And we never want to have to turn people away. But that's the situation we're in because the needs are so high in our community that we are always full. And we continue to advocate for the importance of shelter spaces, emergency shelter spaces and beds. But it's been a long road for the gender based violence sector in general

00:05:45:20 - 00:06:05:12
Rebecca Pecheco
to be able to get to the place we are and even still our funding is at risk, right? Like right now at the federal level, wage Women and Gender Equality Canada, which is a large portion of funding that eventually trickles down to shelters, comes through wage or different like gender equity projects, come through wage. And we're having big conversations right now about that funding

00:06:05:12 - 00:06:27:05
Rebecca Pecheco
and that is very much at risk. So even still, when it seems we're making progress, we still hit these big walls. And that's a huge one for our sector, one that's very scary. For the gender equity space in general. So even though we seek to make progress, then again, we're reminded all the time that this is not always a priority work. That people have.

00:06:27:05 - 00:06:47:22
Rebecca Pecheco
And so we're going to still show up. We're still going to be we are an essential service. We are a 24 over seven organization that operates because gender based violence does not work 9 to 5. And we know that. So, but certainly it's still a challenge, one that we are going to take on regardless because we know how important this work is.

00:06:48:00 - 00:07:09:02
Rebecca Pecheco
But it really sucks that it's still is such a push, to be able to get people to talk about this topic, and to shed light on it, but we'll still work at it. So it's, it's frustrating as a sector any time we have to turn somebody away. Because we don't have space. It's a reminder to us that, like, we're not meeting the need of survivors in our community.

00:07:09:02 - 00:07:32:02
Rebecca Pecheco
We don't have enough space to do this, and there's no such thing as a waitlist for emergency support. Someone is in an emergency. They need support now. we can't call them back tomorrow or in a week or two. Like The consequences of that for that person could literally be life or death, People ask us, sometimes you have a waitlist, but it's like people who are calling us aren't in a position to put their name on a waitlist.

00:07:32:02 - 00:07:36:14
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, call me back and let me know. Yeah. Space. And they're like fleeing from violence.

00:07:36:14 - 00:07:40:00
Rebecca Pecheco
Yeah, that it doesn't work in our in our world.

00:07:40:01 - 00:08:02:21
Lisa Sonni
I completely get that, you know, I mean, I can I can appreciate many women are planning to leave, but I think that there are plenty, plenty to many women who are not in a position to make a plan and in fact, just fleeing and need that support. I think what's interesting, kind of even going back to this gender piece, is that men tend not to be leaving in the same urgent way.

00:08:03:03 - 00:08:26:02
Lisa Sonni
They're not necessarily facing as much or as brutal or severe coercive control or financial abuse. It shows up differently. And definitely in terms of violence, physical violence, they're not necessarily experiencing the same thing. So there's this I think that, you know, this, this notion that there's more women's shelters rather than men's is is some proof of bias.

00:08:26:03 - 00:08:28:14
Lisa Sonni
Don't you find that it's just like proof of demand?

00:08:28:17 - 00:08:52:09
Rebecca Pecheco
Yeah, exactly. Like in the sense the demand is quite high for our service. We're advocating to be able to open a third shelter in our community because of the demand. And this isn't based on our numbers. This is based on what we are experiencing. And we can point to that. And so I can't speak to other shelters or what have you, but I can for ours.

00:08:52:09 - 00:09:12:01
Rebecca Pecheco
And what we are experiencing and that is that we don't have enough beds to meet the needs of survivors in our community. And one, our work is twofold. We want to prevent gender based violence. We don't want people to have to experience this. We don't want people to have to come and see us. We don't want to need a third shelter.

00:09:12:03 - 00:09:30:15
Rebecca Pecheco
But at the same time, our job is to support survivors as it's happening. So it's very much two sided. We need to prevent it, but we need to respond to it also. And our response is not at the level and capacity of the needs of our community. And that's not okay, because we never want to have to say no to a survivor.

00:09:30:15 - 00:09:52:18
Rebecca Pecheco
And if they have children, like we never want to be in that position. And it's a hard place for us to be. And certainly we always work to support that person and finding other shelter space or other options. But sometimes people, they have one call and them they have that one outreach. And if they're getting a response saying, oh, we're going to need to take some time to find another option, they might say, like, okay, then, never mind.

00:09:52:18 - 00:10:03:17
Rebecca Pecheco
Like and we do our best to discourage that. But, It's the reality of the situation. And as the service provider, it's really hard to sit with and to and to know that that's happening.

00:10:03:21 - 00:10:22:16
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. I can only imagine, you know, the emotional energy and courage that it takes to even make that one phone call and say, I need help. And even though you're not declining to help. Yeah, literally just talking about a capacity issue, it just still feels like a no. And it feels like, see, this is why this is the hopelessness of leaving.

00:10:22:16 - 00:10:42:17
Lisa Sonni
And I think that it can very easily turn women back to staying, because where do you go? And you hear this? I hear this constantly. We'll just go to a shelter. Why did you stay? Oh my God, there are so many places that don't have access to shelters and you know where you are. We're in Canada, in the United States, funding is also being cut left, right and center.

00:10:42:22 - 00:11:02:05
Lisa Sonni
You know, I had, detective Mark Winn on the show a few weeks ago who said that funding is being cut constantly, not just for shelters, but anything to do with domestic violence and child abuse and trafficking and all these things. So when there's no resources, what do people do? It makes it worse, and they stay and they feel stuck.

00:11:02:05 - 00:11:24:22
Lisa Sonni
This is sort of how the systems that are all around us don't help women and don't help people who really fundamentally need it. So I think I get really irritated. We only get so irritated when people, men specifically, but people are just like, but men go through it too. I just don't see the same demand for men's domestic violence shelters.

00:11:25:03 - 00:11:32:07
Lisa Sonni
I just don't see it. And I don't know, like if you have a different take on that because you're more in that shelter space versus where I am. But yeah,

00:11:32:08 - 00:11:54:13
Rebecca Pecheco
know in our work too, we're very clear about our mandate and who were there to support it. But It's never to say that that is not happening. There are, of course, cases where that is happening, but statistically speaking, we know that it's not at the same rate and men experience a whole other realm of issues. Why? Perhaps they don't want to talk about their experiences of gender based violence.

00:11:54:18 - 00:12:19:16
Rebecca Pecheco
Why? Because of patriarchal systems that make them seem less masculine or manly. To be an emotional person or a sensitive person, or to say that they are experiencing violence by a woman. Why? Because women are supposed to be more docile. They're supposed to be weaker. So the fact that they could be abusing a man goes against what the patriarchy says should be an ideal masculine man.

00:12:19:16 - 00:12:45:10
Rebecca Pecheco
So when I'm having conversations about gender based violence in the patriarchy, I'm seeing that it's harming all of us. Like it's not just for women or gender diverse folks to have these conversations, because these systems impact men as well in negative ways. Men should be able to feel that they can be sensitive and emotional and have those kinds of conversations without feeling that it makes them any less of a man because absolutely untrue.

00:12:45:16 - 00:13:11:04
Rebecca Pecheco
But where is that coming from? Patriarchy. What don't we like in our sector? The patriarchy? It's all rooted. And that's why when people say like, oh, it's something that like they need to deal with or they're working on. No, we all should be talking about this. It's all it's impacting all of us in different ways to different degrees, depending on the intersections of your identities, where you stand in the world, but still it's impacting you.

00:13:11:04 - 00:13:22:14
Rebecca Pecheco
So when we say everybody has a role in ending gender based violence, it's not just for some folks or the other, it's harming all of us. So we should all care about this because of that.

00:13:22:19 - 00:13:41:06
Lisa Sonni
I totally agree with you. It's the patriarchy irks me so much. I think I have a friend who is another content creator who I remember talking to her about wanting to make content that was a little bit more feminist and a little less abuse focused, and I said, I just don't feel like it's something I should be talking about.

00:13:41:06 - 00:13:48:12
Lisa Sonni
It's off brand. It's not in my my main thing. And she was like, feminism is directly related to abuse because,

00:13:48:13 - 00:13:48:23
Rebecca Pecheco
yeah,

00:13:48:23 - 00:14:10:11
Lisa Sonni
the patriarchy is kind of above all of this. And I thought about it and I'm like, how have I ever been able to separate those? Yeah. Because it's so in there. So it's something like what you're touching on these gender roles. I know how prevalent that is in relationships. I've been through it. And I'm sure the amount of women that you speak to, and I know you have personal experience, like their gender roles are such a key part of this.

00:14:10:11 - 00:14:28:18
Lisa Sonni
And it's very destructive. Yeah. For women and maybe men hear women talking about how it hurts women, but it hurts men. And I feel like that's the part that I just want to, like, drill into people so much is that it hurts men, too, because then you are not a man. If you're being abused by a woman and you can't speak up, but it.

00:14:28:18 - 00:14:34:14
Lisa Sonni
So why aren't they helping dismantle the system. It's exactly I don't, it's I don't have an answer.

00:14:34:17 - 00:15:11:14
Rebecca Pecheco
No. It's so systemic. It is so systemic of an issue and gender based violence. The roots unfortunately of patriarchal beliefs go so deep and so long that it is very systemic and people don't even realize it at some points until it can be pointed out so bluntly. When I have conversations with folks, I mean, the iceberg metaphor is used in so many realms, but it can be used in this realm too, in terms of we understand gender based violence when we see it on this individual level, when we're talking with people who have experienced it, when we're talking with their friends, survivors, or you hear these individual instances.

00:15:11:18 - 00:15:34:09
Rebecca Pecheco
So when you're thinking about this iceberg, those individual instances are the part that is above water. It's very easily pointed to. You can easily identify it. It's there to be seen, to be talked about. But what you don't see as easily, but is always there and is bigger is the system is that giant piece of ice under the ground that those individual instances can exist?

00:15:34:14 - 00:15:58:07
Rebecca Pecheco
Unless that big base is there and it's harder to point to, it's harder to identify, like you could an individual instance of violence, but it's there and it's always working. And until you can chip away at that bottom piece to make it smaller and smaller, the top part is never going to change because the base is there and if the base grows, then the top grows.

00:15:58:12 - 00:16:33:08
Rebecca Pecheco
The more systemic in nature, the stronger those patriarchal beliefs, the bigger the chunk of ice under the ground, the more individual instances of violence you're going to see. Because then the the impact of that is the ice above the water can grow bigger. And that's those individual instances. So I try and talk to people that it's again, it's not only reacting to those instances of violence, which certainly we do at the frontline level in the shelter, but it's also these kinds of conversations to get to the system, to get to the root, to be able to change the environment where gender based violence can exist.

00:16:33:08 - 00:16:59:11
Lisa Sonni
One thing that I have seen and then I've studied this, you know, on purpose to sort of explore why people, why men? And frankly, some women get so, you know, like big men too. And by in the U.S. and Canada, it's like 85 to 90% of intimate partner violence victims who seek shelters are women. So this really speaks to the point that I was making about it not being evidence of bias, but evidence of demand.

00:16:59:11 - 00:17:22:19
Lisa Sonni
Like it's crazy because I've read things like, well, when men open shelters, women feminists, they shut them down. And then you sort of research that and you're like, oh, that's not what happened at all. These are just stories that we're making up. But none of it actually helps. This under part of the iceberg that you're talking about. And until we address it, all abuse of anybody really isn't going to stop. No. But

00:17:22:19 - 00:17:46:16
Lisa Sonni
I think the experiences of men who have been abused by women and women who've been abused by men with the patterns, the contexts, like it's just not comparable, right? Women are more likely to experience these life threatening types of abuse strangulation, stalking and violent stalking, too. I mean, women stock, I know that, but the homicide risk is so much higher when you're a woman.

00:17:46:16 - 00:18:07:17
Lisa Sonni
The financial control, the dependency, which men experience financial abuse, we know that. But women are more likely to be cut off from money and having to beg for essentials. I have almost never heard that from a man, and I imagine you often deal with women who are in a financial mess. Let's say Right? And so you just don't see that as often.

00:18:07:17 - 00:18:34:04
Lisa Sonni
So I know there's always going to be a man that's like, no, but my ex, my wife, I know, and I believe him. But, That doesn't mean that that's the broad picture of what's happening. And I think that instead of, you know, popping into comment sections and interrupting people who are speaking about women's abuse and trying to take it away from gender, I think that the false equivalency that is so often presented right, it's the same.

00:18:34:04 - 00:18:54:22
Lisa Sonni
And, you know, just just don't even talk about gender because everybody's doing it. Both genders do it. I think we know that that's very clearly not true. And it's one of the most infuriating parts about talking about this. I, you know, I talk about it publicly and online, but you talk about it all the time to, what do you think can really be done to, cut the false equivalency?

00:18:54:22 - 00:19:02:22
Lisa Sonni
So, like, I feel like presenting statistics doesn't seem to actually do anything with certain types of people who are just kind of, like, stuck in what they believe.

00:19:03:00 - 00:19:30:02
Rebecca Pecheco
Yeah, I think that's like a lot of the work in the public education sector is you're going to get folks that aren't willing to listen. There's nothing unfortunately, it seems that you can say that is going to change their mind. But what our work is, is we're trying to get to the mass of the people in the middle that are open to listen, that haven't made up their mind yet or are willing to learn, are willing to read or whatever it might be.

00:19:30:04 - 00:19:50:08
Rebecca Pecheco
Those are the people I want to focus on, because I feel like my time is best spent with them and is going to be more efficient. Use of my time more impactful, more meaningful. This. The small folks at the extreme that I know are never going to want to aren't open to listening to me, regardless of the facts I can share with them.

00:19:50:11 - 00:20:09:00
Rebecca Pecheco
My time, I think, is better spent with the majority of the people that are willing and open to listening. Some are going to be going to take a bit more time and that's okay, because we have so many incredible dedicated advocates and public educators and researchers and all the people in the sector that are willing to do that work.

00:20:09:04 - 00:20:35:03
Rebecca Pecheco
But the big thing is, listen, that's what I think when I'm having conversation on gender based violence and the stats and the reality of what's going on in our communities. And I met with some of those pieces around like, well, what about this? What about that and what have you. To me, it's signals you haven't listened to what I just said, because if you listened to what I just said, you would understand the breadth of the issue I'm talking about.

00:20:35:03 - 00:20:59:13
Rebecca Pecheco
And I would hope it would bring out the compassion and the empathy in you, because speaking about something that is highly concerning and problematic to the well-being and safety of our community at large. And so when I met with those questions, what what about what about? To me, it just signals you. You didn't stop and listen, because if you did, I don't know how that could be your response.

00:20:59:17 - 00:21:27:15
Rebecca Pecheco
And again, it's not to say that question is not valid. Absolutely not. It's just not what we were talking about in the moment. And so when I'm sharing something very important and vulnerable and then that's what we're met with, it's very invalidating to the sector as a whole. And the work that we do. but it's a good reminder of why we do it and that we will keep talking about it because there are people that are not there yet.

00:21:27:15 - 00:21:47:06
Rebecca Pecheco
And as much as I'd like to think they can get there again, I don't know at the extreme, but I want to stay with the group of people I know can can want to listen and learn. So for me, it's listening, because there's so much knowledge to be heard and believing and certainly with the facts and things like that.

00:21:47:09 - 00:21:51:07
Rebecca Pecheco
But I think listening first and foremost is how we can get there.

00:21:51:10 - 00:22:03:16
Lisa Sonni
I completely agree with you. I think there is such a lack of listening. Because you can say something and it's like the person's like, yeah, but and then they make a point that you just already explained why, that

00:22:03:18 - 00:22:06:13
Rebecca Pecheco
they were just. They were waiting for you to stop so that.

00:22:06:13 - 00:22:07:15
Lisa Sonni
They could they could just say it.

00:22:07:15 - 00:22:31:09
Rebecca Pecheco
They. Yeah. They weren't listening. And it's then thinking about where is that person coming from that that's is it something they've experience that's bringing them forward? What brought that person to come forward with that? And whether it be ignorance or whatever other issue, is that something that can be addressed, or perhaps that person, again, is just a not a safe person or not someone that's willing to listen.

00:22:31:10 - 00:22:43:07
Rebecca Pecheco
It's going to depend. But I find in that in most of those situations, that's why I know the person's not listening, because they were ready to go with that with that question, as soon as as soon as you stopped.

00:22:43:09 - 00:23:01:19
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. Like I've got my talking points and it doesn't matter what you say. Yeah, really. Trash debaters, I guess spend. But it shouldn't be a debate I think is the key thing. I feel like that sort of both sides do it thing is like saying that both people in a mugging are violent. You just completely miss who has the power and who's in danger.

00:23:01:19 - 00:23:21:21
Lisa Sonni
It's wild to me. think that gender being part of this makes me sad because you kind of connect this to something so, so obvious, right? Misogyny drives this. I used to think that when I was in an abusive relationship, that it was like trauma, and he just didn't know how to love and his mom this and that.

00:23:21:23 - 00:23:41:11
Lisa Sonni
But you start to realize like, no, this is actually caused by entitlement and you can be traumatized and not be abusive. But these absolutely they're abusive. And that is ultimately a choice. But why do they feel so entitled to have power over someone else. And that's where like you circle right back to gender. It's part of it.

00:23:41:16 - 00:24:04:02
Rebecca Pecheco
Yeah. And that's why having conversations with our young folk and with youth is so important, right. To have these kinds of conversations around what the patriarchy is and maybe not using that language, making it contextual to their age. But from a very young age, you can start having conversations around gender expectations and gender norms. And how they're harmful.

00:24:04:04 - 00:24:23:12
Rebecca Pecheco
Something I think a lot of people experience around what's expected of little girls versus little boys, even against such a gender binary. There is only little boys and little girls. But just our expectations. So that as we grow up and develop, we're not having these same understandings of what it means to be a boy and a girl, a man or a woman.

00:24:23:14 - 00:24:44:06
Rebecca Pecheco
And what that means to be a good man or a good woman or whatever that nonsense of a concept is. But a lot of our world is dictated by gender. A lot of what's expected of us is dictated by our gender or our perceived gender anyways, like gender is also not something you can necessarily assume of somebody or you shouldn't.

00:24:44:06 - 00:25:08:07
Rebecca Pecheco
but the power of gender cannot be ignored. Like particularly when it comes to gender based violence and the unique understandings of how the roles of a gender or the power dynamics and those intricacies are impacting that relationship and how gender is at play and how power is distributed, and how that differs between the two people. you can't ignore that when you're talking about this particular topic.

00:25:08:11 - 00:25:18:05
Rebecca Pecheco
It might not be as prevalent when you're talking about other forms of violence or other whatever else it might be. But if you're talking about gender based violence, the gender is. Key.

00:25:18:08 - 00:25:37:16
Lisa Sonni
It is so key. I often I get I have a little, sarcastic sort of attitude to me. And sometimes when people say like, you know, abuse has no gender, which I am actually, when I first started my online content creation side of my, my business, I was like, hashtag abuse knows no gender. And then I was like, it really does.

00:25:37:17 - 00:26:01:03
Lisa Sonni
You know, I think, oh I was very green in the, in the beginning of this, I didn't really know. And again, it's not that men can't be abused, but I am thinking of an interview that I did last year in 2024 with Chuck Dary, who's the founder of the Gender Violence Institute in the US. He's retired now, and he wrote an article, which is really what inspired me to even want him to participate in the interview, he wrote.

00:26:01:06 - 00:26:21:20
Lisa Sonni
I always call it a study. It's not a study, it's an article. But of his sort of findings over the years, he actually conducted and facilitated batterers programs for men who were, you know, 99.9% court ordered to be there. Yeah. And he was not getting anywhere for years. And just like he couldn't get anywhere with this, and he was like, why isn't this working?

00:26:21:20 - 00:26:37:00
Lisa Sonni
Like why I'm not seeing a growth thing here. What's going on? And he asked them, why do you do this. Why do you abuse. What do you gain from it. What's the benefit. And they were like benefit. We don't benefit from it. And he's like no. But like why would you do it if you didn't benefit. What's the benefit.

00:26:37:02 - 00:26:53:19
Lisa Sonni
He pushed them. And then one man answered and another man answered another and another and he made the list. And then he did it in another session and another session. The list makes people just fall off their chairs. It is. And the crazy thing is, is it's all men. And a lot of people like, where's the list for women?

00:26:53:21 - 00:27:14:08
Lisa Sonni
There are no women's batterers programs. Yeah. Ask yourself that. Yeah, this doesn't exist. I mean that you've answered your own question. Yeah, but the men outright admitted to control her so that she makes my dinner so that she feels bad. So that she'll wear what I tell her to wear so that she won't leave me. There's no such list for women.

00:27:14:08 - 00:27:38:08
Lisa Sonni
I'm telling you, women do not abuse for the same reasons. And I'm not saying women abuse for better reasons or good reasons. I'm just saying that they're not the same. They're not just solely for the purposes of power, which is so clear in the patriarchy that they feel entitled to that power. The executive said something fascinating which is you really realize that when women are fighting for equality, men have to give something up.

00:27:38:11 - 00:28:00:02
Lisa Sonni
I want people to hear that. Like it's like, why can't men just be happy? Why can't they just like abusive men? Why can't they just be happy in relationships? Why do they have to seek power and control that gives them something they don't want? What you want necessarily an abusive man who wants power more than anything else. So to maintain that power, he'll do whatever he needs to do, overtly or covertly.

00:28:00:02 - 00:28:19:03
Lisa Sonni
And it's because you're a woman, because he thinks he is superior to you. And yeah. Because you're a woman. And that's like, yes or like, no, I will I will not remove gender. Yeah. I actually the sarcastic part of me is like, that would be stupid. If I were stupid, I would remove gender from gender based violence. But I'm not stupid.

00:28:19:09 - 00:28:47:13
Rebecca Pecheco
No, I think that is the power of it all is really at the core of a lot of these conversations. And it relates back to patriarchal understandings, which is that men are above women and it it very much then replicates itself in different ways, and it depends on the people and the relationships, and the two situations aren't going to look the same, but it trickles back down to that idea of the power and control. In many situations.

00:28:47:13 - 00:29:06:09
Rebecca Pecheco
And there's always going to be nuances to things. But in many of those instances, that's what we find is the power and the control. And where that comes from is our patriarchal, patriarchal understandings of this is the role of women, and this is the role of a man. And if you don't abide by that, then society can't function like it

00:29:06:09 - 00:29:35:20
Rebecca Pecheco
very much is like that is how we have to, how we all need to run, which of course, as we know, is wild. But anything that deviates from the norm, even though it no longer is the norm for so many of us and how we choose to live. But anything that kind of begins to create that change is scary for some people, especially if they're benefiting from said system. Of which for a lot of, of course, men that are benefiting from the patriarchal systems in this case, around the power and control aspect.

00:29:35:20 - 00:29:56:05
Rebecca Pecheco
So, very interesting, as a thought particularly. And we have those programs too, right? Like those court mandated programs that continuously, we see aren't having those same levels of success and the same men having to repeat those courses, like, why is that right? Like if it's not working and because is it because they're mandated? Would people be attending them

00:29:56:05 - 00:29:57:22
Rebecca Pecheco
if they weren't?

00:29:58:00 - 00:30:00:20
Lisa Sonni
That's a no. Yeah, that's a no. Yeah.

00:30:01:00 - 00:30:14:08
Rebecca Pecheco
And then in that case, right then, what good are we doing with the programs? How can we make them better? But at the level of the capacity that is needed to run these programs, the system is just broken, like, from all avenues.

00:30:14:08 - 00:30:36:19
Lisa Sonni
So. Those programs, I honestly, I have a I have a real beef. So. Well, personal story I had to I was exploring that with for the American listeners of the prosecution, we call it the crown in Canada. But I was on the on a call with one in my own sort of, let's call it aftermath. And she was like, I'm going to mandate him to take this program.

00:30:37:00 - 00:30:59:14
Lisa Sonni
Ironic twist is that, no she didn't actually but she was planning to and she was like you know great news is that these programs are really successful. So you'll be happy to know that you know it won't happen to someone else with them. And I was like, what do you mean successful like by what measure. Yeah. And she said, what do you like by the measure of they don't go on to do it again.

00:30:59:14 - 00:31:17:21
Lisa Sonni
And I said, but by your own measure, he didn't do it this time. Right. Because there's no conviction. You're actually offering a plea deal, which means he may not be convicted. And so if he does it again and he gets off, you will take that as a win that he completed the program and never reoffended. But in fact, he could he could.

00:31:17:23 - 00:31:39:07
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. Even more ironically, he did. So yeah, he didn't he didn't take the program but still. Yeah, it it it's not successful. Chuck Dairy, also founder of this institute who conducted like thousands of these programs in every country all over the world. It's not successful because you can't learn how to not be a misogynist in eight weeks or 12 weeks.

00:31:39:07 - 00:31:41:03
Rebecca Pecheco
How is forced to do it? If

00:31:41:06 - 00:32:10:19
Lisa Sonni
you're forced, you don't even want to be there. This is a societal issue and it's a social issue. It's not, you know, send them to therapy and send them to a 12 week program at just really like, oh, so the law doesn't really even help. And unfortunately, that just upholds the patriarchal system. I'm commenting that the Crown was like, well, if we get a plea deal and we get him to plead guilty on a lesser charge, then they get a guilty plea, which is like checkmark, but yet an abuser got off and he did it again.

00:32:11:00 - 00:32:31:05
Lisa Sonni
So in fact, it was her decision. And I honestly, I blame this individual woman as part of a system. I realize who made that decision to say, I'm going to let him off and then guess what happened. You know, like, are we surprised? And it's really it's quite sad. I have a section of my, of my podcast called Real Talk from the comment sections.

00:32:31:08 - 00:32:38:03
Lisa Sonni
So I'm just going to read you a couple of comments that I have had. And, just you tell me what you think of

00:32:38:03 - 00:32:39:01
Rebecca Pecheco
these.

00:32:39:03 - 00:32:48:02
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. Women are just as abusive as men. And the reason that it's not comparable is because men underreport and women like.

00:32:48:06 - 00:33:12:10
Rebecca Pecheco
Yeah, well, I don't like the idea of the lying women lying. I think that rhetoric is incredibly dangerous around the idea that false reports are common when we know they are not. And that is increasingly happening when it comes to sexual assault charges and things like that around false reporting narratives. Absolutely not the case. And if men aren't reporting again, why is that?

00:33:12:10 - 00:33:38:00
Rebecca Pecheco
It's patriarchal understandings of why aren't those men coming forward? So it's not to say that that is not happening. It could be that commenter might know someone that felt silenced because they were a man, and belittled or whatever, have you, but why is that? Because their masculinity was threatened at the idea of coming forward to disclose that a woman had, enacted violence towards them?

00:33:38:00 - 00:33:53:16
Rebecca Pecheco
We should not live in a world where that's the case. Why? Is it because of the patriarchy? So it's not to say not. The argument is not that women are lying. That's so dangerous. It's the patriarchy is harmful. Like that's what we should be talking about.

00:33:53:17 - 00:33:55:01
Lisa Sonni
Just always comes back to that.

00:33:55:04 - 00:34:06:10
Rebecca Pecheco
Yeah. Not. So less focus on the false narrative that women are lying. Take that energy and put it towards. Let's talk about the patriarchy and why it sucks for all of us.

00:34:06:12 - 00:34:30:20
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, it's such a deflection, right? Like I actually men do. Underreport that's an interesting fact. And I've looked into this. It is an absolute fact. You know who else under reports? Women, women, women. Do you know who under reports at higher rates. Women. Yeah. So if the studies are off it would actually only show that even more women are being abused. Yeah. And I think the other thing that always makes me laugh is like, have you ever taken a stats class

00:34:30:20 - 00:34:57:05
Lisa Sonni
because interesting I haven't. Yeah. And I still know I'm underreporting is part of the stats. People think that stats only come from reported cases when there are many studies that have nothing to do with law enforcement or the legal system, and it's anonymous polls of thousands of people. So there's always going to be a variable of some people claiming it happened that didn't, and a variable of people underreporting, but that's all factored in.

00:34:57:10 - 00:35:15:00
Lisa Sonni
So yes, men underreport correct. So do women at higher rates. Women are still more abused. Even if you were to factor in some percentage of how many men and how many women Underreport women are still vastly more abused and more severe and lethal ways.

00:35:15:02 - 00:35:35:04
Rebecca Pecheco
Particularly again by men is what we're talking about. And that's not even talking about male violence enacted towards other men, women and violence and acting towards other women. Unless of course, we're talking within a same sex intimate partner relationship with which would be taken into consideration. But when you're talking about specifically gender based violence, you have to think about the gender of it.

00:35:35:04 - 00:35:53:15
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, yeah. And honestly mean I could do an entire episode on just this topic. But a lot of men will also say like, but lesbians have the highest domestic violence rates. No, they don't. That's a whole topic on its own, but it's absolutely just a myth out of there. But it's not real at all. Not to say that there's none, but it's. Yeah, it's not higher than men, I can assure you.

00:35:53:18 - 00:36:01:15
Lisa Sonni
Okay. The next comment is quite short, but this one actually just like, grinds me in such a hard way. Women who are abusive are worse.

00:36:01:15 - 00:36:26:12
Rebecca Pecheco
But like, again, why? Why the worse than what? Right? Like. And also we shouldn't necessarily be comparing our experiences of violence to those of another. All are valid. And so even among survivors saying like, oh, it wasn't that bad compared to no. Yeah. Any kinds of violence you're experiencing is not okay. And you don't need to compare it to somebody else's to invalidate your own experience or to say it wasn't that bad.

00:36:26:14 - 00:36:49:04
Rebecca Pecheco
Nobody deserves to experience that violence. But when I'm hearing these comments again, like, to me, you're not listening to what I'm saying or to what's being spoken about. And why is that right? Like and again, we can't I can't sit down with all the people making these comments be like, well, where is this coming from? Like what happened that this is what you're projecting now?

00:36:49:04 - 00:37:11:13
Rebecca Pecheco
Like, where is this message coming from to you? Because someone must have given it to you along the way and it's harmful even for you. How is that showing up in your life? Like and how you see yourself and your potential experiences of violence and how you might be invalidating yourself. And so, my first guise is to always want to be like, like to even be like, I don't have time for this nonsense.

00:37:11:13 - 00:37:22:17
Rebecca Pecheco
But then I stop and I think, like, well, what brought you here? Because what brought you here is going to what brings other people here. And it's dangerous. That rhetoric is dangerous and harmful.

00:37:22:19 - 00:37:23:06
Lisa Sonni
Yeah.

00:37:23:07 - 00:37:28:22
Rebecca Pecheco
And it's probably negatively impacting you as well. Person who's commenting. Right.

00:37:28:22 - 00:37:59:18
Lisa Sonni
You which you know the keyboard warriors and yeah it's not it's infuriating. But yeah I, I have to admit when I hear this like women are worse. I actually I hear misogyny in that comment because, you actually said it verbatim to what my brain does like worse than what? What does that mean? Like, what are you comparing it to? Because women are like, if you think about femicide and, you know, the risk of homicide is so much higher when a woman is pregnant and the violence is committed, majority physical violence rather committed by men against women.

00:37:59:18 - 00:38:21:06
Lisa Sonni
Worse in what? By what measurement? That's mild to me. But but you are actually making a better point, which is why are we comparing? Because I see women do that to each other, right? Like, oh, Lisa, you were physically abused, so I know your situation was worse. I don't I don't agree. Yeah, I don't agree. I think I would be better making a case that emotional and psychological abuse is worse.

00:38:21:06 - 00:38:30:10
Lisa Sonni
However, whenever I do that in my own head, I think what you said is it's not fair. Like, you know what, who wins this game is if my abuse was worse, do I win or do you win?

00:38:30:10 - 00:38:49:11
Rebecca Pecheco
it's it's a very again I think it's still stems in these same patriarchal things that like a we are invalidating our, our self in our own experience. And it just lends to also self blaming rhetoric that we can take on in having these kinds of things to be like, oh, well, I let this happen. You didn't like or how could I like?

00:38:49:11 - 00:39:10:23
Rebecca Pecheco
None of that is helpful or none of it is what you deserve to hear or give to yourself instead of that like validation, that compassion. And so I to the people who are commenting these things, I hope they find that and I hope that they can take a moment to listen and that nothing has to be always like two things can exist at the same time.

00:39:11:01 - 00:39:37:01
Rebecca Pecheco
And for us to think like this, like the rhetoric is so dangerous that we take on. And there are so many cases, even locally, where the media too can perpetuate negative stereotypes, are harmful rhetoric to around survivors, and very much a victim blaming. Narrative. It's so dangerous. So let's just listen like and with open ears and open minds and being open to change our minds.

00:39:37:01 - 00:40:08:18
Rebecca Pecheco
If we go into every conversation without that possibility of saying, hey, Lisa could teach me something new today, that directly goes against one of the fundamental things I believe, and I'm going to be okay with that. I'm going to think critically about it, and I am open to always listening and learning and bettering myself. So even if that means I have to change my mind on something, it's just a better reflection of me and my openness to growing as opposed to this is my belief, and it's forever because people are growing, learning, changing.

00:40:08:18 - 00:40:17:12
Rebecca Pecheco
We learn new things every day, and our willingness to be okay with that and open to that, although uncomfortable in many situations, is so important.

00:40:17:17 - 00:40:39:19
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. God, I agree so much. You know, I there's less listening now than ever before in life. People are so stuck in their own biases, then it's just hard to see sometimes. And I get it. But I think the willingness to have the conversation and I honestly hope that anybody listening, like if we've even changed one person's perspective on this man or woman and, you know, that's an amazing thing.

00:40:39:23 - 00:40:59:10
Lisa Sonni
I think really, at the end of the day, gender based violence really isn't just about what happens behind closed doors, right? It's the beliefs that make violence possible the entitlement, that power imbalance, the gender roles that, you know, the idea that women exist just to serve and to forgive and to stay and to be kind and forgiven. But I hate all that.

00:40:59:10 - 00:41:22:10
Lisa Sonni
So when we name it as gender based, you're not erasing anyone else's pain. We're just acknowledging the reality that this is a global epidemic and it's rooted in equality. It's not anti men, it's not political. None of that. Right. So I think honestly, if it makes people uncomfortable, maybe the discomfort is the point because there's a lot of growth that can happen in the discomfort.

00:41:22:10 - 00:41:44:19
Lisa Sonni
So I think yeah absolutely. We got to name where it comes from. Otherwise how do you fix it 100%. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. I'm going to link all of the information for Embrave in the description so that people can like reach out and interact with you guys. And I'll take your podcast as well and Embrave’s podcast so people can listen to that too.

00:41:44:21 - 00:41:47:02
Lisa Sonni
But thank you so much for being here today.

00:41:47:02 - 00:41:49:12
Rebecca Pecheco
Thank you Lisa, I appreciate it.

00:41:49:14 - 00:41:59:01
Lisa Sonni
If this episode gave you clarity. Share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember, you're stronger than before.

00:41:59:03 - 00:42:03:06
Music
Stronger than before.