What Divorce Lawyers Know That Therapists Don’t w/ Justin Lee | S2E11

Therapists hear what people say in marriage. Divorce lawyers see what people do when it ends. And what they see tells the truth about power, control, and the quiet games that keep women stuck in “high-conflict” divorces. 

Lisa sits down with family lawyer and content creator Justin Lee to expose the patterns behind the myth that “women ruin men in divorce.” They unpack how abusers weaponize the court system — dragging out cases, withholding money, and using children as pawns — while claiming victimhood online. 

Justin breaks down what really happens behind the scenes: why women file after years of trying, how financial control becomes legal abuse, and why the system isn’t rigged for women, but against fairness itself. This conversation is a masterclass in seeing through the “crazy ex-wife” narrative and a reminder that justice may take time, but your peace is worth fighting for.

Transcript

00:00:00:06 - 00:00:09:00
Music


00:00:09:02 - 00:00:19:00
Lisa Sonni
This is real talk with Lisa Sunny, Relationships Uncensored, the podcast. They don't want you listening to.

00:00:19:01 - 00:00:42:12
Lisa Sonni
So therapists really hear what people feel in a marriage, but divorce lawyers to see what people do when it ends. And when you start looking at what people do right, not what they say, you're going to see a whole different side about why marriages actually fall apart, especially when power and control are involved. So today I am joined by family law lawyer Justin Lee, and you may have seen his videos online.

00:00:42:12 - 00:01:03:09
Lisa Sonni
He's super funny and he reacts to like relationship situations and just sort of breaks things down. So we're going to talk about what divorce lawyers see that therapists don't. Right. The games the entitlement, all of these red pill myths and all of that. But I would first love to have you sort of introduce yourself a little bit. How long have you been a family law lawyer and what got you into this specialty?

00:01:03:11 - 00:01:25:10
Justin Lee
Well, thanks for having me on, Lisa, first of all. And, It's a funny story how I got into family law in the first place. And this is not a joke. At the time, I was applying to law school. Thinking about. Applying to law school suits was a very, very popular. Program. And, the the young me thought, you know what? I think I could be one of those charismatic characters, you know, advocating for people and making lots of money.

00:01:25:10 - 00:01:44:01
Justin Lee
And so, I was in accounting at the time, and I by chance, I applied law school. I got in and there was just a program that the school was offering that. they got students to participate in family law, related programs. And I thought to myself, how funny would it be if I could tell my friends and family that I'm a divorce lawyer?

00:01:44:01 - 00:02:02:06
Justin Lee
The concept was just so funny to me. And in the beginning, almost as a joke, I applied. I somehow got it. And ever since then, I fell in love with the industry, and, And I've never looked back. So, But, I mean, it's. Funny, end of the day, it is also true that like relationships. I like drama. I always tell my friends, like, I mean, my dad, a divorce lawyer.

00:02:02:06 - 00:02:11:12
Justin Lee
It's kind of like listening to your friends vent about their relationship problems, which everybody knows. It's very, very fun to be that third person listening, but you get paid to do it, right. I'm not

00:02:11:13 - 00:02:11:21
Lisa Sonni
quite there,

00:02:12:01 - 00:02:26:08
Justin Lee
unfortunately. But that's right. That's right. I'm. I'm a very expensive therapist. You know, a lot of, you know, as we'll talk about, I'm sure, up to being a divorce lawyer, part of it inevitably becomes being a therapist for your clients and. and. Yeah, the. Clients always tell me you're. You're good, Justin, but you're also very expensive.

00:02:26:08 - 00:02:34:18
Justin Lee
I'm like, I tell you to go get a therapist and and to talk about your problems that are not legal with them instead of me. But, you know, sometimes. Yeah, they need a they need a quick job.

00:02:34:23 - 00:02:45:09
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. I, you know, I get that I can, I can see why people would sort of feel compelled to be like, oh my God, this is what he did. Or just like getting so angry and you're like, okay, but legally speaking, you have to sort of.

00:02:45:14 - 00:02:47:17
Justin Lee
That's right, that's right, that's right. It,

00:02:47:18 - 00:03:05:11
Lisa Sonni
it's tricky. divorce is something that, you know, my audience has certainly experienced or will experience at the very least, breakups. But I think this kind of concept that you see a lot online of, like, women file for divorce more. And in your experience, why do women file for divorce and why do men file for divorce?

00:03:05:11 - 00:03:24:13
Justin Lee
Well, first of all, I think it's important. Preface. Important to preface what I'm about to say with that. You know, I at the end of the day. And so and this is the case for every divorce lawyer, you know, we only see a very small subset of divorce. Filings, let's say. You know, and, you know, I happen to specialize in high conflict, divorce.

00:03:24:13 - 00:04:02:01
Justin Lee
And so the people who come to me usually are people who, like, really, really, really do not get along. And they need to go to court. And they, need, serious intervention. so to speak. And so, my sample size is not quite representative of, you know, what the actual stats might be on hold. Right? Right. But from my perspective, what I see is that. Women, Their decision to get a divorce is it's a product of having. Had. A very, very long period of time. Of. Suffering, mistreatment, just not being happy in a relationship and having really, really, really try to make it work.

00:04:02:01 - 00:04:23:16
Justin Lee
But they realize at the end of the day that it's just not salvageable. and I think on the flip side of that is that men are generally speaking, they can be a bit more oblivious to the problems in the marriage. And so I think that's where we get the whole joke on TikTok and Instagram about how. men will say, you Like I never saw that divorce coming. But from a woman's perspective, they saw it from a mile away because they were unhappy from the beginning.

00:04:23:16 - 00:04:43:11
Justin Lee
And so I think from my experience, women file for divorce more than men. And I think when men, are looking to get a divorce, it's it's as a result of something that happened in a shorter period of time, maybe something more acute, like an affair by by the women or something like that. But there it's more of a quicker decision for men than it is for women. In my experience.

00:04:43:13 - 00:05:03:05
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, I can see that, actually. I mean, my clients are women and they are like, I've been begging this man for years to stop being controlling or to be more participative or do more around the house, or love me more, spend more time with me. Or, I mean, I deal in abuse and toxic relationships, so obviously like, stop abusing her.

00:05:03:09 - 00:05:23:16
Lisa Sonni
But I think there's also a denial that what he's doing is abuse and related unrelated. These men know that they're abusive. They know that their behavior is bad. They just sort of like, I don't understand and pretend that they don't get it. And then they pull this like, women are crazy. And she divorced me out of nowhere. I feel like women didn't change fundamentally.

00:05:23:16 - 00:05:50:20
Lisa Sonni
The sort of view of like, she changed. I think that women in these bad relationships, they change because they're reacting to mistreatment or neglect over time. So yeah, she's become different, I'm sure. But he might have stopped wooing her or started abusing her, and then she's getting the hell out of there. So you deal in high conflict, which is so interesting when you have a female client, let's say, who's divorcing someone and citing abuse or high conflict or narcissism, whatever.

00:05:50:23 - 00:06:00:18
Lisa Sonni
Can you tell on the other side, like when you're dealing with their lawyer, when you can, you see in the in the filings and in the emails and all the things, can you do you feel like you can tell if if he's abusive?

00:06:00:21 - 00:06:22:09
Justin Lee
That's tough. I think a lot of the times the real really abusive, like. Really, Nefarious, type of people on the other side can also be very, very charming. And on the outside, they can come across as very put together, a very professional, you know, like we're talking. About, like. Real, you know, functioning members of society who we might even look up to because of the status they have the society, what have you.

00:06:22:09 - 00:06:51:04
Justin Lee
And so it's not always easy to tell that this person is. It. Could be or. Is, as you know. My client would allege that they are abusive or whatever. But. Being a divorce lawyer, you have the privilege of, you know, pulling the curtain back, so to speak, and you get to see the unfiltered version of their relationship. Dynamic, right from, emails. Text messages, or testimonies from other people. There are evidence. That. Are so contrary to how they present themselves on the outside. That, that it's It's a real problem.

00:06:51:06 - 00:07:13:14
Justin Lee
and, you know, at least I you hit on a really good point that I, that was one of the things I wanted to talk about on this podcast, because I thought it was so important. I had a consult the other day. and it was a woman who was telling me about the abusive situation that she's. In. And, you know, I asked her, you know, so you're talking about all these like emotional and mental abuse, which, by the way, it's it's same thing as physical abuse.

00:07:13:14 - 00:07:29:11
Justin Lee
I want everybody to know that. And I asked her like, what about physical violence and physical harm. Like do you have any concerns of physical safety? And she said, no, I mean, like she never he never hit me. He'll just sometimes I grab me and push me. But like, he never hit me. And I said to myself, but this is exactly the problem, right?

00:07:29:11 - 00:08:01:04
Justin Lee
There are women. Who I think out of defense mechanism. Are. Underplaying the situation is. that they find themselves in. And, you know, I need everybody to know. That. Unwanted contact, whether it's a fingertip to your arm or a full on swing and a smack, is all the same. Unwanted contact by your spouse is assault. And there is no there's nothing appropriate about somebody saying, well, you know, we'll trying to measure what kind of assault is viable assault.

00:08:01:04 - 00:08:20:04
Justin Lee
And that warrants you doing something about it. And, I mean, it just hit me because in that moment, I realized, you how many women are out there experiencing this exact same thing where they're trying to self justify that the situation that they're in is not as bad as it actually is. You know, like, oh, he only pushes me sometimes, gets no, he doesn't actually hit me.

00:08:20:09 - 00:08:38:00
Justin Lee
What a ridiculous. Statement, right? and there's real need for, awareness for people to know that that's the situation that they're in. And I guess by doing these kind of podcasts and putting this information out there, I guess what we're trying to do is letting people know that, you know what? It's not okay, and it's okay for you to leave, and it's okay for you to do something about it.

00:08:38:06 - 00:08:59:00
Lisa Sonni
people need to know that, you know, and I hear something so often that, like, abuse has no relevance in family court. And I just don't agree. I think that you can present it poorly in court, and I hope that good lawyers can present it properly. But like how you could possibly say it's not relevant, especially when you're talking about children, which this episode isn't really about that, but you know, it is relevant.

00:08:59:00 - 00:09:19:19
Lisa Sonni
But even in a divorce proceeding, I think that a lawyer needs to know that abuse has been present, because then you're aware of these games. And, I mean, I could list so many games, but like the the paperwork punishment, you know, dragging things out, refusing to sign the agreements, the verbal agreements the couple might make, and then come to the lawyers and be like, okay, draw this up.

00:09:19:19 - 00:09:33:00
Lisa Sonni
And then the husband's like, I'm not signing that. Like, we we just agreed. I see it so often these games. What games do you see as a lawyer? What do you sort of see as, as the let's say, the perpetrator of abuse is playing through their lawyer?

00:09:33:05 - 00:10:06:18
Justin Lee
Well, a lot of the times it's financial. Lot of the times women who find themselves as a victim of domestic violence. They're also financially deprived in one way or another. And so The man would usually have an injured control. And so, you know, that means that you she has to depend on him not only for just cost of living on a day to day basis, but to get a lawyer, you know, like he's got the resources to get a good lawyer, and she's scrambling to find every dollar she can to try and get any kind of lawyer. You know, that already creates a very imbalanced dynamic. A power dynamic. Yeah. You know, like. Financial abuse is very,

00:10:06:18 - 00:10:30:16
Justin Lee
very real. even when you do take them to court, there's all these tactics to delay the process to use the, the the system to their advantage. You know, I always say to people because I think people sometimes have this misconception that, you know, we have this perfect justice system. We don't and I don't think that's possible. You know, where at the end of the day, a society made up by humans, driven by humans, for humans, like we're not perfect. Right?

00:10:30:16 - 00:10:50:14
Justin Lee
And. we only have one legal system. And it's not perfect. And there are ways for somebody to take advantage of that. Now, you know, I don't want anybody hearing this to get discouraged by that because, I mean, at least where I'm from in Ontario, the justice system, while not perfect, it is very, very comprehensive. in my experience, justice usually always does prevail.

00:10:50:14 - 00:11:02:02
Justin Lee
But it takes time to get there. It takes a lot of resources to get there, and it takes a lot of emotional toll. To get there. So it's, it's, you know. It really is a, as I say, a marathon and not a sprint. Yeah.

00:11:02:02 - 00:11:29:23
Lisa Sonni
It's so true. I know the amount of women that I deal with who, you know, some are dealing with divorce with children, some without, but you still see a lot of the same tactics. I think when there's children involved, obviously there's the weaponization of children and alienation and all that. But the financial abuse is huge, even in child support, spousal support, if it's even owed, which I realize it's not, not always the case, but it there's just this dragging out of the process takes years.

00:11:30:02 - 00:11:49:11
Lisa Sonni
It takes an amount of money. That would make some people sick. The amount of women that are like, I don't know where I'll get the money from or, you know, I'm I'm representing myself or I'm trying to represent myself. And they just feel like the system is so rigged against women. And then it's so odd to me because then on the flip side, men are like, get out of here.

00:11:49:11 - 00:12:09:02
Lisa Sonni
It's it's so rigged for women. And I when you when I look at stats, I just can't see how it's rigged for women, especially given that men run the system and we're living in a patriarchy. It I can't imagine how men are losing at a game that they rigged to win. It makes no sense to me. And I think the stats that I see sort of don't support that.

00:12:09:02 - 00:12:16:13
Lisa Sonni
It's rigged for women. But I love that you're sort of seeing fair outcomes are happening. Like people need to hear that because it doesn't matter from Ontario actually.

00:12:16:15 - 00:12:33:10
Justin Lee
Yes. Yeah. Well, I mean, I mean, to be fair, like I how can I like I can't really speak to any other jurisdiction other than Ontario because I don't practice outside of Ontario. And look, I mean, jurisdiction differences are huge. And at the end of the day, you know, a state of Texas is going to have a very different set of rules and laws than Ontario does,

00:12:33:10 - 00:13:02:23
Justin Lee
for example. And, What I've heard through the grapevine is that some states may have a bit more antiquated set of laws, that might work against. You know. One gender over the other. But again, I can't speak to that because I don't know for sure what I can say, though, you know, for example, in Ontario and just generally what I see is and I think the reason why you're getting the sense that everybody seems to be saying like, oh, the system is rigged against me, even though it when we think about it logically, it can't be. It can't both be true.

00:13:03:04 - 00:13:20:23
Justin Lee
Is that a family law? At the end of the day, when you do reach any kind of settlement, or it when a judge makes an order, usually what happens is you both lose something, right? Like we have a saying in family law where if you're trying to get into a settlement. your goal should be for both of you to walk away equally unhappy.

00:13:20:23 - 00:13:43:20
Justin Lee
Right? Then if you think about it, like at the end of the day, when you're going through a divorce process, your best case scenario end up with. Quote unquote broken family. Like you're you're now a divorced. Family, you know. And that's not an ideal scenario at the end of the day. And so it's very, very hard for anybody going through the process at the other side of it to feel like they've won or they've got the ideal outcome

00:13:43:20 - 00:14:02:01
Justin Lee
right. And so it's very easy for somebody to feel like the system been rigged against him, or that they've got the shorter end of the stick or what have you. Right. And so I think that might explain why, you know, even if factually the system might be favoring one, you know, set of people over the other, that. both sides feel like the system is rigged against them.

00:14:02:03 - 00:14:20:16
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. I remember actually, as a as a couples counselor once said, that compromise is tricky because often both people are unhappy. So you have to make sure that you're not compromising yourself. So that was from a therapist in the context of helping a relationship survive. But when you sort of apply that to divorce, it's like, yeah, it's compromise sucks.

00:14:20:21 - 00:14:22:09
Lisa Sonni
Everybody's losing something.

00:14:22:12 - 00:14:23:20
Justin Lee
So that's yeah,

00:14:23:22 - 00:14:35:01
Lisa Sonni
arguably a fair way to look at it because at least everybody's losing something if supposed maybe they're both gaining something too. But I think there's a myth that one side loses more. But there's I think. It's

00:14:35:01 - 00:14:46:22
Justin Lee
hard to. I think it's hard to appreciate, you know, as somebody going through the process. That. You are gaining something for sure. I think you're likely to overemphasize what you're losing, what they're gaining, versus the. Yeah. The other side of that. Yeah.

00:14:47:03 - 00:15:04:10
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. Like you always wanted more, you know, more custody, more support, more money, more something more. More than half of the house or something. And there's so many. Yeah. So much context that's needed. Right? I mean, like, was it a stay at home mom? Was it a wealthy couple? Was it people who don't have a lot of money?

00:15:04:12 - 00:15:08:17
Lisa Sonni
Kids? No kids. How long were they married? I'm sure there's lots of factors. But

00:15:08:17 - 00:15:27:18
Justin Lee
also, let's be frank, like, you know, there it's so emotionally charged this process that there are probably a lot of people who, no matter what the outcome is, they are still going to feel like they've they've lost. You know. Yeah. That all they want to see is the is that the other person is destroyed. And if that's your objective, you're never going to be satisfied.

00:15:27:22 - 00:15:49:09
Lisa Sonni
There's definitely, you know, this feeling that I see so many clients experience this, that they know that their spouse or ex-spouse wants them to lose. And something that I feel like I've really learned about people who are narcissistic. And I know that word is used a lot in family court and probably should never be used, but dealing with somebody who's abusive or narcissistic, they want to win.

00:15:49:13 - 00:16:02:19
Lisa Sonni
And of course, and they want you to lose. But if them losing if that's what it takes, that you lose as well. I think that they're willing often to like, burn their own lives to the ground just so they also lose. Yeah. Like if I'm.

00:16:02:19 - 00:16:04:00
Justin Lee
Their money. You

00:16:04:04 - 00:16:04:12
Lisa Sonni
know.

00:16:04:12 - 00:16:41:15
Justin Lee
Yeah, yeah yeah yeah, Like they're, they're generally speaking two types of lawyers. Okay. And they're I know I said I deal in in high conflict divorce but genuinely I, my philosophy and my practice is I care more about your well-being and your ability to provide for your own children. Than patting my own pocket. And what that means is I would rather you settle and reach an outcome that minimizes you burning away your savings, even if it means you might have to compromise over trying out this fight and this litigation where you're going to spend tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars on me, and for nothing to show for it.

00:16:41:15 - 00:16:58:14
Justin Lee
And I tell people. Look. The longer you fight, the only there I will tell you there is a clear winner and a loser. And the winners? Me. And then the loser is you. Right? Like, you know, if you want to fight, go ahead, because I'm going to be, you know, very comfortable, you know, making money in my profession.

00:16:58:19 - 00:17:15:19
Justin Lee
But at the end of the day, if you think there's a winner and a loser between you and your spouse, you're absolutely wrong. there's only going to be two losers. And just. That's the both of you there going to be two winners. That's me. And the other side's lawyer. And and let's not forget, there's a real biggest loser and a victim in all this, which is the children.

00:17:15:21 - 00:17:34:05
Justin Lee
And that's what's so funny about human emotions, is that no matter how much I preach that to people who really need to sort of get their mindset right, they don't care. They can't. They can't. Maybe it's not that they don't care. They can't get themselves there in their mind that they genuinely would rather that they need to satiate their need to. You know, get some. Inside.

00:17:34:05 - 00:17:44:16
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. Exactly. To, to get at them. Have was I wanted to ask actually have you ever had what I'm going to call the narcissistic client? Like, have you been the lawyer for the other side for the perpetrator ever.

00:17:44:17 - 00:18:06:22
Justin Lee
Maybe when I was working at a firm and I was, you know, more of a supporting lawyer than the main lawyer. Like, I've been on my own for a bit. Now, and, And because, like, I put out a lot of this information online and I make content, I think the clients that are drawn to me in the first place are ones that kind of see the kind of person and the lawyer I am, which is. You know.

00:18:06:23 - 00:18:24:12
Justin Lee
I'd like to think that I'm empathetic, right? I try to do right by, you know, my clients. And so, you know, genuinely, in the recent years that I've been on. My own, I. Don't think I've ever had any. Yeah, I've had a lot of victims of abuse. So I think which, you know. And that makes sense. Because of the content I put. Out.

00:18:24:22 - 00:18:42:15
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. Yeah. Which sucks. But I'm I mean, I appreciate that there's lawyers out there that know. So like, hey, if you're in Ontario, here's a lawyer for you because people, people are constantly talking about how like, my lawyer has no idea, know many people who have hired a lawyer and said, listen, I know you don't want to hear all about my drama.

00:18:42:15 - 00:19:04:13
Lisa Sonni
I understand you're not my therapist, but my ex is a narcissist. I'm not going to make that the whole center of my case. But I need you to know that because we need to be proactive. We need to be, you know, offense, not defense. And and the lawyers are like, yeah, yeah. Like they don't agree. Or they're like, everybody calls their ex a narcissist and then they don't operate from what I think is like the right framework.

00:19:04:18 - 00:19:19:16
Lisa Sonni
I don't know if this whole like, you know, lawyers being a shark or aggressive, but I would say that I like an assertive lawyer. I think that's important. And knowing some of the history, knowing that has been domestic violence. Can you imagine taking a client and then not even telling you that there was domestic violence? Yeah.

00:19:19:16 - 00:19:47:23
Justin Lee
No. I and yeah. That's a that's a very multilayered. Problem. Right. Like at the. End of the day, if you think about. You know, what stuff lawyers have, family lawyers have to deal with, it's actually not it's actually very, very complicated. And you're again, inevitably you're going to do some job as a therapist. You're going to be, social worker. in one. Hand, and you're going to be a financial advisor and the other, like, you have to take on so many roles as the family's lawyer. But you're not technically trained to do any of that.

00:19:48:02 - 00:20:09:09
Justin Lee
Right. And so I'm not surprised. When you say that there are a lot of lawyers from people around you that have experienced, just their lawyers not being, in tune with what it is that they are looking for, what they are going through. But on the other side of that and I, I see this often as well, is that people also need to have realistic expectations

00:20:09:12 - 00:20:37:15
Justin Lee
what you as a client find to be actionable offense by the other person, that threshold is probably very, very different than what the court, for example, would consider to be actionable offense. And so as a lawyer, your job is to give them the transparency and realistic assessment of their situation. And so when a lawyer tells them, well, look, I hear you and you say, your ex did this and this and that. But legally speaking, here's your situation and how that might not be as relevant as you think, etc., etc..

00:20:37:19 - 00:20:57:15
Justin Lee
And I think sometimes people have a hard time accepting that advice, and they interpret that as though they don't quite see where I'm coming from now. I think they're part of that also is communication issues right? Like the lawyer needs to know how to communicate that in a way that, make sure that the client feels heard but still can be really dismissed. The right advice.

00:20:57:18 - 00:21:00:07
Justin Lee
So. So again, I think it's a very multilayered problem. I

00:21:00:10 - 00:21:18:05
Lisa Sonni
it's always like, I find it hard to say this because I'm, I have I'm a survivor of this and I, I know what it feels like to not feel like the system cares and to feel like lawyers just want your money. But you said something so interesting about, like, I, you know, I could pad my bank account all day long, but you don't want to go to court.

00:21:18:05 - 00:21:39:04
Lisa Sonni
That's like you encourage people to settle. People don't think that about lawyers. People think that lawyers and I would argue a lot of people think all lawyers want to go to court. You want to litigate so badly you're just going to drag this out. That's not my experience with lawyers. I think that you probably have a busy practice, which especially if you specialize in high conflict divorce.

00:21:39:04 - 00:21:56:23
Lisa Sonni
That sucks. I wish you didn't have such a busy practice. I wish less people were getting divorced for these reasons, but you probably have lots of cases and you're actually not trying to drag this out. You're giving them honest information about what matters in this jurisdiction and what doesn't matter. And what to not build your case around and what to build your case around.

00:21:57:05 - 00:22:15:14
Lisa Sonni
And people are like, Justin doesn't care. You know, they just they immediately sort of feel like the lawyers are to blame or that lawyers want to get rich. But it takes the focus off the fact that a perpetrator, an abuser in court, divorcing you, wants you to lose and wants to drag things out and there's probably lots beyond your control.

00:22:15:15 - 00:22:35:21
Justin Lee
Yeah. I mean, look. If I wanted to if my objective was to make a lot of money, I wouldn't be a family lawyer. Let's just put it that way. I think there was a survey done across Canada, few years ago. And apparently the finding was that family lawyers were the the most underpaid and the most stressed. And so, again, like, like, if I wanted to make money, I wouldn't be here.

00:22:35:21 - 00:22:37:09
Justin Lee
So, you know, let's start with that.

00:22:37:14 - 00:22:38:02
Lisa Sonni
You'd be Harvey

00:22:38:02 - 00:22:53:22
Justin Lee
Specter. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, like, you know, I always. Joke that I'm like. I'm like the dentist who's who's trying to get you to floss? Like, yes, it's probably not good incentive for me to tell you to do the right things. But you know what? I care about your teeth. You know, like. I care about your life.

00:22:53:22 - 00:23:08:21
Justin Lee
And that's why I'm in this field, you know, because, like, I. Because I care about people, and I want to Make the right differences. I will say. Lisa. Sorry. I because I think this is so important. Like, I want people to also know that I'm not in the minority, you know, like, I there are a lot of lawyers I know who feel the exact same way.

00:23:08:21 - 00:23:25:18
Justin Lee
And they they genuinely want to do good things, for people and, as like a aside, as, like a pro tip. I guess if you're looking for a lawyer, you need to speak with multiple lawyers. And I think precisely for this reason, like if you speak to one and you feel like, well, I talked to one I saw in the chat, they sound okay. So I'm just going to go with them.

00:23:25:18 - 00:23:47:08
Justin Lee
You might be stuck with a lawyer who's not aligned with you in terms of how your case needs to be run. And. So, you know, I always recommend to people, you know, at least three lawyers and there'll be people who offer free consultations. And there are people who will charge. And I think. Like, spend the money if you can then like talk to lawyers because, I mean, if you spend the money, they'll give you the time of the day and actually give you quality information.

00:23:47:13 - 00:24:03:23
Justin Lee
And, you know, like, for example, I tell my clients, like, I tell my potential clients after I consult, I tell them, like, look, I want to be very clear. Just because you spoke with me and consulted with me, there's zero pressure for you to retain me. I want you to go out and talk to other people and see for yourself who is your best fit.

00:24:04:04 - 00:24:22:22
Justin Lee
That might not be me. If it is me, great. I'm happy to help you. If it's not also great, I'm much better off knowing that you found somebody who's better for you. Than I am, you know? And so, yeah. Who gets. It? Everybody needs to have that kind of mindset and, and talk to more than just more than one. And I think you might have a better luck finding the right lawyer for you.

00:24:23:04 - 00:24:39:18
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. You're making me think about this woman. It was years ago when I first started in this. And, like, I don't work in any legal capacity, but I do talk to a lot of people about divorce. And she said she had this in her mind. She was told to talk to three lawyers. So she consulted with three lawyers and one was okay.

00:24:40:00 - 00:25:02:01
Lisa Sonni
One straight up said to her, you have no case. All of the abuse that you're describing, even though it happened in front of the children, it's historical. It has no relevance. You need to go 5050 and this is in Ontario and you've got no case whatsoever like, stop, let him see the children. I get you think that he's going to hurt them or that he's committed acts of physical violence in front of them, but like, get over it.

00:25:02:01 - 00:25:22:16
Lisa Sonni
You're going to lose. And this woman was like, I was like, God, scared out of her mind. Goes to the third consultation. And that lawyer was like, no, yeah, if you don't have to do 5050, you know, you have a pretty good case. I understand you feel like you're not your ex is a narcissist, but at the very least, labels aside, there's provable abuse that has taken place. And let's let's take a shot at this.

00:25:22:16 - 00:25:42:01
Lisa Sonni
So obviously she chose that lawyer, but meanwhile she ended up with full decision making and full custody. And I think back to but that first lawyer who was like, you're going to lose. You can't like what what it was. It's shocking to me. Like, how do you miss that so badly? She allegedly, but I wasn't there but presented the exact same information to both of the lawyer.

00:25:42:01 - 00:25:46:04
Lisa Sonni
So it's just also interesting how some lawyers are like, not on your side right off the bat.

00:25:46:04 - 00:26:04:21
Justin Lee
that's a very good case in point, right? That, like that. Why you need to speak with multiple lawyers. Yeah, yeah. Because I mean, like, it's a. Very, very human issue, you know, like, I mean, I think it's different than something like being a doctor where there's a little bit more of that black and white element to for a medical diagnosis than there is in the human relationship diagnosis.

00:26:04:21 - 00:26:14:14
Justin Lee
Right. And yeah. Like you can take it to ten different lawyers. They're probably gonna have ten different opinions about how to run your case. Yeah. And so again, more to the point that like you need to talk to more lawyers and not do

00:26:14:21 - 00:26:24:00
Lisa Sonni
you see women getting rich off divorce? I'm not saying have you had a case here and there, but like fundamentally, do you feel like women just profit off divorce?

00:26:24:03 - 00:26:46:09
Justin Lee
It's a hard question to answer because. to answer the question, I think we need to first answer. Well. What do we collectively agree is an appropriate compensation. For a woman. Who, stereotypically and generally speaking, I think to this day, this is still true at least in the demographic that's getting a divorce. Were. Stay at home parents, or if they were working that were part time,

00:26:46:09 - 00:27:08:11
Justin Lee
they were, responsible for, for majority of child care. And they sort of supported the the man's career. By. Taking care of all the admin duties that he. So that he didn't have to like, what is the appropriate, compensation for that sacrifice and contribution that she made. Right. Some might say, well. Like. You literally wouldn't have the children you have without, without her support.

00:27:08:11 - 00:27:28:01
Justin Lee
So, you know, you're giving away half of what you have is a pretty good deal. Another person might say, well, I mean, like, he had the job already prior to getting married, and he put in a lot of effort to try and climb the corporate ladder. And yes, it did help that she was making lunches for the children and taking them to school or what have you.

00:27:28:01 - 00:27:43:15
Justin Lee
But like at the end of the day, he was the one putting in the work towards his career to make it immense. And so what do you mean? I need to now give her 50% of everything. Right. So like, as you can see, like there's a very, you know, like James Sexton, for example, is a very prominent New York lawyer who's on TikTok all the time.

00:27:43:15 - 00:28:04:16
Justin Lee
I love this guy. And he, you know, said something really interesting about this whole concept of spousal support, right? Which is yeah, okay. So we're going say that because she stayed home is of your career that you have to pay your spouse support. But like, What about then her. Own parents who supported her and made her to be the person that she is, and therefore she was able to support his career?

00:28:04:16 - 00:28:25:06
Justin Lee
So then, does he now owe some kind of compensation to her parents? And what about her parents? Like? It's a bit of a, I. Suppose, a silly illustration, but it it drives a point, which is how do we define what the appropriate compensation is. And I don't think there's a real answer we're going to reach, obviously. And I think the reason why I bring this up is, well, the jurisdictional difference is very real in that sense.

00:28:25:06 - 00:28:42:12
Justin Lee
So Ontario is going to have a very different sense of what probably compensation is. And that's enacted into law. Texas, for example, is going to have a very different set of the appropriate compensation is. So in Ontario, I can tell you that, you know, like 5050 is a bit of a myth in that it's not actually 5050 down the line, but there's it's a bit more nuanced than that.

00:28:42:12 - 00:29:07:14
Justin Lee
But for argument's sake, let's say it's 5050. would say. Overall, Ontario is closer to that 5050 regime than other jurisdictions like this. Ontario is a very, very, recipient friendly jurisdiction, if you will. And as you can imagine, there are a lot of a lot of men or payers who feel very, very unhappy. About the fact that. They have to dole out a lot of money to the other person. Yeah.

00:29:07:14 - 00:29:18:23
Justin Lee
But again, but that's part of like what makes family law so conflictual difficult in a way. Interesting, I guess, because there's no black and white answer. And every case is different. Every case is different.

00:29:19:05 - 00:29:39:12
Lisa Sonni
I actually I like the concept of 5050 fundamentally. And I think it's a good starting point. I think that we need to have context and like that's what lawyers are for. That's what court is for. That's what negotiations are for. But I think that what you can't not talk about is what men obviously some men see as her value.

00:29:39:17 - 00:29:59:12
Lisa Sonni
So she made lunches that she makes lunch and I have to. And it's like if she was a stay at home parent, raised the children, did the pick ups, the drop offs, childcare, the making, Halloween costumes, doing the dishes, the meals, hosting your your clients, playing trophy wife, all those things. Prestige suits made sure you can go and travel on business.

00:29:59:15 - 00:30:19:05
Lisa Sonni
That's what gave you your success in your career. So it's mindblowing to me that men are like, yeah, but that's not worth anything. Meanwhile, who climbed the career ladder while she stayed home and she has no skills or less skills or a massive gap in her resume. But the the idea that these types of men that we're talking about don't value women's labor.

00:30:19:10 - 00:30:38:11
Lisa Sonni
So then, of course, when the divorce comes, it's like now she gets 5050. This is crazy. She gets my kids, she gets. And it's like she gets what was happening during the marriage, right? You made the money. Yeah. You supported her. She helped and dealt with the kids. And now you want to give her nothing, have her go back to work and split the kids when that was never the deal in the marriage.

00:30:38:17 - 00:30:41:16
Lisa Sonni
So that's sort of what the status quo men don't. Use if.

00:30:41:16 - 00:31:03:00
Justin Lee
You don't. Like you is, you know, people, you know, like like I personally have no stance in terms of, you know, people should strive to be more equitable in a relationship and they should try to be more independent other than for issues of safety. Obviously, I always encourage people to have some level of independence because otherwise if you depend on them too much, you get you, you risk yourself.

00:31:03:03 - 00:31:17:08
Justin Lee
But beyond that, like if somebody says to me, you know what? Like I aspire to be a stay at home, wife, you know, I want to support my husband. Or. And on the other side of that is a man saying to me, I want a certain. Wife. Like, I want somebody to stay home, do all the domestic duties.

00:31:17:13 - 00:31:31:01
Justin Lee
I actually have zero issues with that same way, in the same way that I need to have no issues with other people, more modern people. I suppose, saying like, I want to work like I don't want to be just stay at home, whatever. But the only thing is, people need to remember you can't have your cake and eat it too, right?

00:31:31:01 - 00:31:54:00
Justin Lee
And so that means if you're a man that says, I want my wife to stay home and be to bear my children and and raise my children and do all these things that a traditional wife is supposed to do, then you're going to have to take on a pretty traditional role as a man. And that means in the event of separation, you need to continue to provide for this woman that you you you promised that you would provide for it, right?

00:31:54:00 - 00:32:14:06
Justin Lee
Like you don't get to have the benefits for a period of, let's say, I don't know, ten years that you've been married and after that, since you're getting a divorce, you got none of the consequences. Right? Or to respond to carrying continuing responsibilities. so. I think if people were just realistic. about. The situation that they were in and what they're choosing to do. You know, I. Think we wouldn't have as much conflict.

00:32:14:06 - 00:32:17:02
Justin Lee
But I think the problem is people, generally want to have their cake and eat it

00:32:17:02 - 00:32:40:12
Lisa Sonni
too. Make sense though. And again, you look at this type of man who is entitled like his entitlement is the biggest driver of abuse. If he's entitled to have the stay at home wife and everything that that comes with. But then he's entitled also, he only provides only for that allegedly abusive men or not. Neither of those things, but it's contingent on the transaction of you performing The Good Wife.

00:32:40:13 - 00:32:59:16
Lisa Sonni
And then when you decide to get divorced because he's been abusive or neglectful, boom, you are persona non grata in his life and that's it. You are the enemy and he wants you to have nothing. and it's interesting that men talk about women gaining in divorce when, I mean, there's actually this kind of conversation around like who benefits from marriage.

00:32:59:16 - 00:33:25:15
Lisa Sonni
It's men like period. Full stop. Every study proves that men benefit more from marriage. And then men are like no women. Do they mean divorce? They mean that women benefit in divorce. But what's interesting is women don't like the studies actually show that financially. And again, overall, I'm not talking about your clients. Women don't benefit from divorce. Having said that, the benefits are, in my opinion, happiness because women who are not married, whether that's divorced, are never married, are happier.

00:33:25:17 - 00:33:46:01
Lisa Sonni
Women who are childless are happier. And I say that with two kids and I'm engaged, I realize. But, you know, we women are happier and so I think abusive men are a little bit jealous of that. They get a little pissed off that their ex-wives are actually happier with or without alimony. And alimony and spousal support that's paid in like less than 10% of divorces.

00:33:46:05 - 00:33:51:00
Lisa Sonni
And yet men think all women walk away with this balloon of money. It's wild to me.

00:33:51:01 - 00:34:05:00
Justin Lee
Yeah, yeah. Oh, actually, I mean. I guess that also depends on the jurisdiction. Like, I don't know the number of. So in Canada we call it spousal support. Same thing as alimony. But I don't know the percentage of cases where, where a spouse will walk away with, With, spousal support, less than 10%.

00:34:05:00 - 00:34:07:01
Justin Lee
Yeah. Yeah. And which restriction are you in?

00:34:07:06 - 00:34:08:07
Lisa Sonni
Lisa, Ontario. Okay,

00:34:08:07 - 00:34:14:02
Justin Lee
okay, okay I see. Okay. Yeah, yeah. It's, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's an interesting set. I actually didn't know that. Yeah.

00:34:14:04 - 00:34:32:09
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, it's actually it's a Canadian stat versus an Ontario stat, but it's actually a, it's the same in the US, but it's less than 10%. And of those payers some are women obviously the majority is men. But women pay it to, you know, which is painful for a woman who might have been the breadwinner and now she has to pay her abuser in divorce.

00:34:32:15 - 00:34:35:20
Lisa Sonni
How is she winning in that case? I can't see that. That's crazy.

00:34:35:23 - 00:34:51:07
Justin Lee
Yeah. I think one of the most common questions I get is, you know what? Like What can I do to protect myself. In a marriage. whether they're in a marriage now or whether they're looking to get into a marriage. And they always tell them, like, look. There is only so much the law can do for you. It's just it's just what it is.

00:34:51:11 - 00:35:15:11
Justin Lee
Your best protection is to marry the right person in the first place. And I realize that's a lot. Harder. To to implement in action than than to talk about. However. I do think that there is an element of people, not taking the time to suss out the other person. I think people fall in love a bit too easily, especially when they're younger and they put the rose colored glasses on.

00:35:15:11 - 00:35:30:00
Justin Lee
I mean, how many stories do we know of, you know, oh my God, he was great when we were dating, but as soon as we got married, he was a different person. You know, it's a very, very common story. And. And if nothing else, you know what? You get a prenup. Seriously. Here's the thing about. You know. Marrying a potential abuser and getting a prenup.

00:35:30:02 - 00:35:50:02
Justin Lee
People think like the value of a prenup is is what you end up writing on the agreement which which it is valuable, obviously. But in my opinion, the real value in getting a prenup is the process of talking about this with your spouse and finding out really. When it comes down to it, like, what kind of person are you?

00:35:50:02 - 00:36:10:20
Justin Lee
Right, like, I'll. Just tell. A. Quick story to drive this point home, which is, you know, I had a client who, you know, was getting was engaged, was going to get married, and she was living with currently, A, her, her, her fiancé. The fiancé had two kids of his own. So she was home. She was about to quit her job, and she was going to raise his two children.

00:36:10:22 - 00:36:32:04
Justin Lee
And we proceeded to try and get a prenup done. And the other side had proposed in an agreement that while she's married to him and living in his house. Caring for his two young children, that she would have to pay rent, to him and that she would get no support, no property, no nothing in the event of a divorce.

00:36:32:04 - 00:36:50:03
Justin Lee
And so you can imagine the type of conversation that people were having once that agreement came through, which was, what the hell are you talking about? Right. Wow. And that was not the kind of person that she thought she was marrying. Right? Yeah. And so it's very, very easy when you're in the dating stage to sort of, you know, play this character.

00:36:50:06 - 00:37:03:18
Justin Lee
I think, that. That is trying to woo you. And love on you and what have you. But like, again, when push comes to shove and like when, when things get real, as in you're about to put ink on paper that says, in the event of a divorce, legally, this is what I'm going to do for you. This is what's going to happen.

00:37:03:21 - 00:37:22:04
Justin Lee
like they can't lie anymore. Right? And so, yeah, and and on the flip side of that, I have many other really happy, you know, just, couples who decide to get a prenup and they're like, even more generous than I would want them to be. You know, I'm like, legally, you don't have to be like this generous. But they're like, oh, but like, she's gonna be my wife, or he's going to be my husband.

00:37:22:04 - 00:37:49:19
Justin Lee
Like, I, I want them to be supported, and I want it to feel like they're getting an, an equitable outcome out of this relationship. And so like, I want to do it. Like. That also exists. And if that's the case. Like. Good on you. You know, like I can't be happier for you. Right. But. Like, seriously, I think that I think people underestimate the, the, the value or they, they don't quite realize that the real value in getting a prenup is not just what you end up putting on the agreement, but the process in and of itself.

00:37:49:19 - 00:37:52:09
Justin Lee
And you get to really see what the other person's made up. I mean,

00:37:52:13 - 00:38:11:07
Lisa Sonni
yeah. I feel like the take away from that little bit there is divorce lawyer says Prenups are going to help you determine what kind of person because you can't hide anymore. You can't lie. Oh, baby, I'll take care of you. Don't worry. Oh, we're never going to get divorced. But if we do, I'm just curious, you know, what would this actually look like?

00:38:11:09 - 00:38:30:17
Lisa Sonni
I think more people like what I've learned over the last five years working in the domestic violence realm, and even just talking to people about how you exit these relationships. I sing the praises of Prenups left, right and center. And when I was in my 20s, I was always kind of like, prenups are so icky. Who wants to talk about divorce while you're getting married?

00:38:30:17 - 00:38:42:05
Lisa Sonni
And now I see it as that's exactly when you should be talking about those things. But if you make it a legal conversation, there's no baby, I love you. I'll take care of you. Show me. Write that down I love.

00:38:42:05 - 00:38:44:05
Justin Lee
Me, yeah. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

00:38:44:16 - 00:38:49:09
Lisa Sonni
You'll pull out the abusers right there that are like okay. Yeah, I'll take care of you here. You can have your money with

00:38:49:09 - 00:38:49:17
Justin Lee
support for

00:38:49:21 - 00:39:09:00
Lisa Sonni
six months. Yeah. And then you get nothing. It's. Yeah. You'll expose them. You'll expose them. Yeah. I have a little, a little part of this podcast called Real Talk. From the comments, you probably get all kinds of comments on social media. Me too. A lot, a lot, yes. And you know, I see amazing comments and I see like the worst of the worst comments.

00:39:09:00 - 00:39:27:16
Lisa Sonni
So I'm going to read you two comments relating to this topic of divorce. And I just want to hear your thoughts. So one of the comments, of course, over 70% of divorces are filed by women. They get everything out of it alimony, child support, the house, the kids. Well, the man's life gets ruined and he has to pay for her hair and nails. Brood again.

00:39:27:16 - 00:39:54:13
Justin Lee
Very, very well. I mean, I can. Understand why someone might feel that way. Like, subjectively, I get it. But. you know, there are consequences, to everyone's actions. Let's say, you know, and. Yeah, and one of my favorite phrases is, you know, there's no such thing as a free lunch, you know, and that applies to literally anything. And, you know, if you're a person who benefited, from the marriage in some way, and you might not like to acknowledge that you benefited from the from the marriage, but do you definitely. Have. And,

00:39:54:13 - 00:40:12:10
Justin Lee
and there's a price to pay for that. You know, that's not to say that everything's transactional, but that's just the way life works. And the same thing goes for the other person, you know, like. The price they pay for. The hair and nails. I suppose, to use that example, a post divorce is that you gave up your independence, probably during your marriage.

00:40:12:10 - 00:40:19:03
Justin Lee
You know what I mean? Like like again, there's no free, there's no such thing as a free lunch. And I think people will be better served to realize that.

00:40:19:08 - 00:40:35:03
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. One thing that always kind of surprises me when men are like, you know. Oh, and I have to pay alimony, which, again, is paid in less than 10%. So I just want to flip that 90% of divorces, there's no alimony typically being paid. If we're if we're I believe these stats, I've looked into them. I've seen all the sources.

00:40:35:08 - 00:40:59:22
Lisa Sonni
But the point is that if it's being paid, there's a reason. And we all know where we get married and where we live and all the jurisdictions. So if you really are so concerned about if in the event of a divorce that she's going to get alimony, get her to sign a prenup before the marriage, tell her, be honest and upfront before the marriage and say, if we ever split up, even though I expect that you are a stay at home parent, that I want you to have nothing in divorce, be honest.

00:40:59:22 - 00:41:20:21
Justin Lee
Also, you know, you. Got to let it go for you. And then and on beyond that, you have to arrange your life in a way. You arrange your marriage in a way that makes it very, very obvious that you know what it wasn't like one person was sacrificing, didn't themselves for the other person. And that means you and, you know, nowadays, you know, like double income household is probably more common than not.

00:41:20:21 - 00:41:36:18
Justin Lee
And so, you know, when you come home as a man and your wife also works, by the way. Do the dishes. You know, take care of the children, do the laundry like you do you, to partake in the things that typically women do. That that entitles them to spousal support. If you if you're so concerned. Right. Yeah.

00:41:36:23 - 00:41:39:08
Lisa Sonni
You also might avoid divorce by doing that, by the way.

00:41:39:10 - 00:41:58:17
Justin Lee
And that's exactly it. Right. It's like. I. I think. You know, I believe part of the reason why the divorce rate is so high and why relationships fail is because they we overemphasize the the moment in which we get married and how that is a moment beginning the the the forever happily ever after from that point on.

00:41:58:17 - 00:42:21:00
Justin Lee
And people take for granted the relationship in the marriage that they they are in. And you know, when in, you know, as soon as somebody takes something for granted, they are not going to give it the care and the attention that it deserves. And if in your mind, because you said I do at the altar, that the other person, no matter what you do, is not going to leave you, they'll probably leave you because you're not going to treat them right.

00:42:21:00 - 00:42:43:12
Justin Lee
And so, like, and that's the thing about Prenups too, it's like, yeah. You think that talking about a divorce is going to make you get a divorce? That's such a faulty logic, right? In fact, I would argue if you're talking about the the potential that you might get divorce and what's going to happen in the event of a divorce, you are going to acknowledge the possibility that it might happen, and therefore you're going to put in the requisite care to make sure it doesn't happen.

00:42:43:15 - 00:43:02:10
Justin Lee
Right? Like like the other person, like for both people, like another human being saying to you, I'm going to commit myself to you is not something that comes for free. Right? It's a huge, huge. Sacrifice and commitment from the other person that you have to respect, and there needs to be a reciprocal effort for it to work. And I think people forget that, or people will. Never do talk that.

00:43:02:15 - 00:43:23:11
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, I absolutely think that I have and I think, you know, abusive people exploit that. They don't want to have these conversations about getting yourself organized. The amount of people that are like, how did you in comment sections, you know, like how do how are these women getting married? Never having had these conversations, you'd be surprised how many people, men and women are not having these conversations.

00:43:23:13 - 00:43:36:08
Lisa Sonni
And I honestly, my new advice, I'll I'll quote you on this, but I really feel like Prenups are going to expose the liars for women should be asking for prenups not because they're trying to get money, right, but just sort of like suss out what kind of person you are.

00:43:36:10 - 00:43:38:08
Justin Lee
Put your money where your mouth is, you know?

00:43:38:08 - 00:43:59:10
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. One more comment to wrap it up. It's a comment that stuck with me, and I pulled this off specifically for this episode because, it irks me. It's such a red pill comment. Men stay because they're loyal. Men choose their families over their own happiness, and women choose their own happiness over their families. That's why marriages fall apart.

00:43:59:12 - 00:44:19:00
Justin Lee
I hear I think. Again men are just a bit more obtuse and I don't see that to be critical. I think, I think like just, I think biologically I think that is true. You know, I think I think women are more complex in their mind than, than men are. And another element to that is a lot of the times, women are the one suffering in the relationship, you know, and they're like, it's not an equal amount of suffering. Right.

00:44:19:00 - 00:44:35:11
Justin Lee
And so the other person might say, like I am literally working providing for you financially. Like what more could you want? Meanwhile the wife is saying like, but like, I don't want you to work so much to the point where all I have is money, but I don't have your presence. I have to do everything by myself. At home. I don't feel loved.

00:44:35:11 - 00:44:53:01
Justin Lee
I don't feel valued. I don't feel like my own self anymore. Yeah. Like then these you see the disconnect, right? So it's not like. And you know, I think also this idea that people get divorced so easily, you know, like they kind of they kind of make it sound like a woman will wake up one day and think like, yeah, you know what, I'm going to get a divorce.

00:44:53:01 - 00:45:16:21
Justin Lee
Because you know what? I value my happiness over this family. But like, the reality is that was an agonizing process to try and come to that conclusion. And most of the time, in my experience, anyway, like the women really have thought very, very, very long and hard about whether they want to go through it or not. And let's be clear, by getting a divorce, they are also subjecting themselves to a lot of consequences.

00:45:16:21 - 00:45:41:07
Justin Lee
And it's not it's not all butterflies and rainbows for them either, you know? In fact, it's probably obvious. It like it's the uncertainty you have to uproot your entire life. You're going to. Have to. Jump into this, process of uncertainty that might not get you what you think you're entitled to. There's also this element of, you know, stigma that people have against divorced women. And now you have to tell your friends and family that you're like, like, like, what do you mean?

00:45:41:07 - 00:45:58:18
Justin Lee
Somebody just wakes up and says, like, I, I feel like I'm going to divorce you today because I choose myself over you. Like, that's not a thing that happens, right? No. And I think perhaps that also then goes to show how oblivious men can be. Now, like I in saying all this, I do want to make it very, very clear.

00:45:58:20 - 00:46:19:06
Justin Lee
Like like there are plenty of women that I deal with that are also that are very toxic. There are plenty of men like it's not necessarily an all gendered issue, but it is true that on the. Whole. That there still exists that gender specific issues, that we that we still need to do a lot of work out to try and resolve. I think.

00:46:19:06 - 00:46:38:08
Lisa Sonni
So, I think with this kind of comment, even what I see is like men's willingness to be miserable, like, you get married and that sucks. She made me. It all fits into that trope of like she tricked him into marriage. Or meanwhile he asked her he bought the ring, he showed up to the wedding, maybe paid for the wedding. And there you are married.

00:46:38:08 - 00:47:00:00
Lisa Sonni
But it's just this sort of like, I hate my wife. I hate being married. Men accept that instead of choosing happiness. So if it's true, I don't think that it is true that women choose their own happiness over their families. Women are miserable and they don't think that raising their children and continuing to be miserable and making that the generational thing that we all do. I think choosing your happiness is smart.

00:47:00:00 - 00:47:18:05
Lisa Sonni
So like number one, I think it's dumb to stay unhappy. But I also don't think that it's true. So men's choice to stay miserable like, that's that's dumb. You should stop that. You should get divorced. I actually, if you're unhappy in your marriage, divorce her. That just doesn't make sense to me to say unhappy. Why choose that?

00:47:18:05 - 00:47:37:01
Lisa Sonni
It's brutal. These these topics of divorce. And it's hard, you know? I mean, both genders can be abusive. It's not who my audience is dealing with. We're dealing with abusive men over here, but we know that it can kind of go around and that the tactics that are used in divorce proceedings are brutal. Dragging it out to financial abuse. It's absolutely awful.

00:47:37:04 - 00:47:48:20
Lisa Sonni
You see a lot as a divorce lawyer that I guess therapists maybe missed in the marriage, but it's hard. Divorce is sucky, no matter what I think, even when it's the right thing for the couple to get divorced, it's still hard.

00:47:48:22 - 00:48:14:09
Justin Lee
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's that's exactly the point, right? Like this idea that divorce is so easy. Somebody would choose that over, over over something else so easily. It's not like that's not the case at all. Like it's divorce. I, I'm not exaggerating when I say this can be one of the most traumatic experiences that anybody goes through in their lifetime, you know, and, and, and to to think that some like someone might choose that so easily. Is, is is just it's just not accurate, you know

00:48:14:11 - 00:48:32:22
Justin Lee
and like yeah. Yeah. Look, I mean. I guess as a closing remark, I want to. Just. Tell people, reiterate the point that you really need to find the right person in the first place, you know, because there's no amount of law or intervention that is going to change the person that you've married. And look at. Like I despite all this conversation, I think marriage is a beautiful thing.

00:48:33:02 - 00:49:00:10
Justin Lee
And, I mean. I wholeheartedly believe in. Yeah. Like if you believe in the value of marriage and I think having children, I personally is, is, you know, though I don't have children yet, but. But, yeah, but I. Certainly I have plans to, can be the most rewarding thing that anybody can, can do with their lives, like. But you got to educate yourself, and you've got to not take what Disney says is the idea of a romance and apply that to your own life.

00:49:00:10 - 00:49:18:18
Justin Lee
Because you know, what real life is not is not like it's it's not a fairy tale. Real life is full of consequences. Real life, real life. Marriage is more like a business transaction. And I know that sounds very unromantic and unsexy, but you know what? if you want to continue to believe that marriage supposed to be this like butterflies and rainbows and we're never going to get divorced.

00:49:18:21 - 00:49:35:11
Justin Lee
Well, you know, talk to Lisa and she'll tell you all about how that went wrong and talk to me like we will both tell them about how wrong that can go. Again, the best protection you can set for yourself is to marry the right person in the first place. Not easy, I understand, but there is certainly a lot more that people can do than they are doing right now.

00:49:35:14 - 00:49:54:05
Justin Lee
You know, talk. To a lawyer, get a prenup, you know, like do your research and like, also value yourself. You know, like if you know. In the. Back of your mind that the other person has these tendencies that are. Like, I don't know about that. Like, really hone in on that. Right. And then address that. You know, I'm not saying right away, if you see, as soon as you sign any signs like walk away, I'm not saying that.

00:49:54:05 - 00:49:57:01
Justin Lee
Right. But like you have to, you can't ignore it, right? Can't ignore.

00:49:57:01 - 00:50:12:14
Lisa Sonni
And we do. Honestly we do. I talked to so many women who are like, I didn't see it. And then you start talking about it and they're like, oh, I totally saw things, which is a whole different topic. I have many episodes on that topic of how we miss what's really going on, but there are ways to sort of suss it out.

00:50:12:14 - 00:50:22:12
Lisa Sonni
I think slowing down is a good one, and getting a prenup is a good one, so appreciate that advice so much. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. You also have your socials

00:50:22:12 - 00:50:36:15
Justin Lee
picture people. Yeah yeah yeah. And look I, I know, I know, I already gave em a closing read my book just one more because I realize now people might hear what we said and kind of put a lot of pressure on themselves for getting themselves into this situation in the first place. And I just want to say to them, you know what?

00:50:36:15 - 00:50:58:00
Justin Lee
You need to exercise a lot more grace to yourself, right? Like we're all human and It's a lot easier for myself and your self, Lisa, to sit here where we are and then as like a third party person, you know, criticize and kind of talk about what should have been done, what could have been done. But when you're in that moment, as everybody knows, it's, it's not that easy and it's not that clear.

00:50:58:01 - 00:51:15:05
Justin Lee
And so like, I don't want anybody to hear this episode and blame themselves or put so much pressure that they haven't done the right thing, like, you need to be gracious with yourself. But like, look forward, be forward thinking at any stage in this process, there's something you can do to help yourself. And if today is that day, then great.

00:51:15:10 - 00:51:31:04
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. That's amazing. I'm glad you said this because I definitely don't want people to feel like, you know, you picked the wrong people lie, and that's how we get into this. But it's just a matter of giving ourselves the grace. And let's. I always say that looking back is really hard because you know more now. So you look back and you think, oh, why did I do that?

00:51:31:04 - 00:51:36:02
Lisa Sonni
I knew better, you didn't at the time. You know better now. That's right. Move forward. It'll be okay.

00:51:36:02 - 00:51:36:21
Justin Lee
That's right. Yeah.

00:51:36:23 - 00:51:42:06
Lisa Sonni
That's right. Thank you. Thank you so much. And I'll take your socials so people can follow you. Thanks for being here.

00:51:42:10 - 00:51:44:08
Justin Lee
Of course. Thanks, Lisa.

00:51:44:10 - 00:51:53:19
Lisa Sonni
If this episode gave you clarity. Share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember, you're stronger than before.

00:51:53:21 - 00:51:58:01
Music
Stronger than before.