The Lies That Keep You Stuck: How Abusers Rewrite Reality Dr. Alan E. Godwin | S3E1

Abusers do not just lie. They build entire realities that feel safer than the truth. Realities where doubt keeps you tethered, confusion feels normal, and leaving feels unthinkable. If you have ever felt like you were trapped inside a story you could not escape, this conversation will land deep.

Lisa sits down with psychologist and author Dr. Alan Godwin to unpack how abusers construct false realities through isolation, narrative control, and emotional manipulation. Together, they explore how these story-based fortresses are built slowly, why they target our deepest need to belong, and how abnormal behavior becomes normalized over time. What begins as trust turns into attachment, and attachment becomes the very thing used against you.

Alan explains why intelligent, self-aware people are especially vulnerable. Not because they are naive, but because abusers exploit empathy, loyalty, and the human instinct to give the benefit of the doubt. Lisa weaves in lived experience, naming the moment when what is true gets replaced with what only sounds true, and why survivors often end up defending the lie that is hurting them.

This episode is about understanding how you became blind, and why that blindness was never a personal failure.

The truth cracks the fortress. And once you see it, you can begin finding your way back to yourself.

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:08:17
Music


00:00:08:19 - 00:00:17:17
Lisa Sonni
This is real talk with Lisa Sonni, Relationships Uncensored, the podcast. They don't want you listening to.

00:00:17:19 - 00:00:39:11
Lisa Sonni
So abusers don't really just lie in moments, right? They build these entire realities that feel so much safer than the truth. And today, I have an amazing guest to talk about how abusers build this story. We're going to get really in depth here. How did we fall for it? What happened? What are they doing that makes this, you know, relatively speaking, so easy for us to believe?

00:00:39:12 - 00:00:50:05
Lisa Sonni
There's a concept of the story based fortresses that we are going to talk about today. But I want to first introduce my guest. But I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself. Tell us who you are.

00:00:50:07 - 00:01:13:03
Alan Godwin
Well, it's great to be with you this morning. My name is Alan Godwin. I'm a licensed psychologist in Nashville, Tennessee. When I first moved here, Nashville was a, not an exciting place. It's become the IT city. So I moved here before it was cool to move here. So I've been practicing as a psychologist during that time. And, you go through graduate school, you some people want to kind of know what lane they want to be in, and they pursue that.

00:01:13:04 - 00:01:34:08
Alan Godwin
I didn't necessarily know, but what I found out as I practice was I did find myself in a lane. And that had to do with, people that came into my office who were distressed they might have been depressed or have anxiety issues, but didn't necessarily know how to define why, you know, what was going on. And what I found out after,

00:01:34:10 - 00:01:57:11
Alan Godwin
and this is a common theme after I would talk to them for a while, what started to become evident was that they were in relationships that don't function normally, and there's a real disorder to the function in that relationship, but they didn't necessarily know that. They didn't really necessarily understand that, but was working on it and it was affecting what was going on between their ears.

00:01:57:11 - 00:02:34:10
Alan Godwin
And sometimes what was going on blow their necks to it. Would it would have a real physiological effect. So what I started realizing is that it's pretty common for people to be in relationships. And the word that I've come to use over the years is drama. You know, we we tend to say that. So so-and-so is a drama queen or drama king or and you might say it's it's a real soap opera over there at office. But I think that's actually a technically useful term because what happens in a drama with somebody is it's not a relationship that functions in reality, but the only way they know to relate is to get you to participate with

00:02:34:10 - 00:02:58:19
Alan Godwin
them in that drama. So my role in the drama, is this your role in the drama? Is that as long as we both stay inside of our drama roles, we'll have a great relationship. So relational success is contingent upon drama, participation. And what I was finding over the years is that drama participation really takes its toll on people, and a lot of times it would work on them so long that they'd come into an office like mine saying, saying hell.

00:02:58:22 - 00:03:21:10
Alan Godwin
So what I found was, a lot of what I was find found myself attempting to do was to help them develop the ability to become drama non-participants if they can figure out ways to stop their participation in the drama that helps them. It may make in some cases it makes the relationship worse, but it helps. So I ended up a book, back in 2008,

00:03:21:10 - 00:03:41:07
Alan Godwin
it was called How to Solve Your People Problems. And so part of that is about how to resolve conflict. The other part is how to deal with these kind of people. And in the book, I refer to them as unreasonable people because they are unreasonable. They have neither the ability nor willingness to resolve things. They just want you to participate with them in the drama.

00:03:41:10 - 00:03:59:18
Alan Godwin
And so that was a that was the thrust of that book. And a lot of times a question they would pose to me is, why didn't I see it before? How could I so blind, it's so clear to me now was I, was I just stupid? And it wasn't that they were stupid. They might be very intelligent people. But you can't see what you can't see.

00:03:59:18 - 00:04:26:01
Alan Godwin
But over time, it starts to show up. But ten years ago, I started noticing something a little bit different, and that was, people were coming in and saying things, not so much how could I have been so blind? But the question shifted a little bit, like, how can Uncle Irving be so blind? You know, he's he's now wrapped up in this, conspiratorial, web of things where, where he they just believe crazy things

00:04:26:01 - 00:04:51:21
Alan Godwin
and, I've always thought Uncle Irving was, like, super intelligent, very rational. But he he's he's changed. He's not he's a different person now. So what I started realizing was what I had been observing for so long that was happening to people on an individual level was start to happen to people collectively, where masses of people were were getting duped by, in some cases, a demagogue or in other cases a demagogic system.

00:04:51:21 - 00:05:11:03
Alan Godwin
You know, there were so wrapped up and so I spent about five years thinking about that and about five years writing about that. I'm not a fast writer. So, that book has just come out in October. It's called Ties That Bind. And, you know, what it is that blinds people is their ties to, the coalition all instinct.

00:05:11:03 - 00:05:32:02
Alan Godwin
They get pulled into these groupings because they want connections. But once they're in those connections, the implicit demand is you have to buy in to the alteration of reality inside there. And that's what I referred to it a minute ago. I call it a story based fortress, because there's a difference between, the truth and a story that sounds true.

00:05:32:05 - 00:05:35:08
Alan Godwin
And so they were they were buying into this altered reality.

00:05:35:12 - 00:05:54:20
Lisa Sonni
love it, I think it explains your background and who you are really. Well, actually. And it's so interesting. You know, I think what I deal with, I have a lot of clients who are victims and or survivors of abuse and mistreatment and toxic relationships, and maybe the person's narcissistic. Maybe they're borderline, maybe they're not. I don't know, it doesn't really matter.

00:05:55:00 - 00:06:11:13
Lisa Sonni
But they sit and they don't understand what on earth is going on in their relationship. And I deeply relate to that feeling. Of all I know is this isn't normal. And we're not getting along, and it's like nothing I do is ever going to make this better. So when you're talking about they just want you in the drama,

00:06:11:13 - 00:06:20:22
Lisa Sonni
like, that's just absolutely on point. It felt like, they didn't want to be healthy. That's the pattern that I just constantly see is the desire for chaos. Yeah. Drama.

00:06:21:00 - 00:06:30:18
Alan Godwin
They're like emotional pickpockets, you know that. They get you looking over there, and while they're looking over there, they're picking your pocket over here. And, then later you're wondering where your wallet.

00:06:30:22 - 00:06:36:17
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, yeah. And I once wondered where my wallet actually went, literally. So, Yeah. Yeah, I get that.

00:06:36:19 - 00:06:54:12
Alan Godwin
It's it's a it's an old book. Now, the back in 1980, a book came out called The Road Less Traveled by Scott Peck. And then two years later, he wrote a book called The People of the Lie. And I think the most, salient line in his whole book. I can repeat it right now. And here it is. It's lies confuse.

00:06:54:16 - 00:07:12:09
Alan Godwin
It's it's a two word sentence, but I think it's it's packed with meaning because lies confuse people. And, you can you can get so wrapped up in this alteration of reality that you can't tell you lose your moral compass, you lose your bearings, and it really does mess with your brain to get wrapped up in that.

00:07:12:09 - 00:07:37:21
Lisa Sonni
That's, so, so true. And it's really hard to step out of it. I think we want so badly to believe that our loved ones are telling us the truth. And I feel like even once proven a liar, you still really want the truth to be something a little bit more palatable. And I think the way that some people are just really good at kind of creating this narrative and creating this story, that they're the the misunderstood hero or they're the injured victim, right?

00:07:37:21 - 00:07:46:10
Lisa Sonni
They're so good at playing the victim. Yeah. Pulls us into the story and then it's hard to not see that. How do you think they're doing that? They accomplish it.

00:07:46:15 - 00:08:01:16
Alan Godwin
Well, I think a normal person, I'm going to assume that both you and I are normal people. Yeah, well, what we tend to want to do is give people the benefit of the doubt. And, we like for people to do that for us, you know? So don't assume the worst of us. Give us the benefit of the doubt.

00:08:01:19 - 00:08:20:18
Alan Godwin
And I think what people in this category that we're talking about, they exploit people's tendency to give the benefit of the doubt when it's not deserved. And so, if you have a default position, you might say, well, you know, we're having a bad day. This is a one off. I'll go ahead and give him the benefit of the doubt.

00:08:20:21 - 00:08:43:22
Alan Godwin
But what you see as time goes on is, that's not just a one off. It's a pattern. So initially they exploit that. I think another thing they exploit is, generally they're nice people that they they're, I should say they're likable people. They've got compelling, interesting traits. They may be very smart, they may be very personable. And so we want to have a relationship with them, particularly if you're related to them.

00:08:44:00 - 00:09:06:06
Alan Godwin
And so they exploit the our need for attachment. And somehow they, they get underneath all of that and we find ourselves attached to them, even though it's a toxic attachment. We didn't we didn't see it at first. And I'll just say this here. The question I get asked a lot is, do they know what they're doing? I mean, is this is this purposeful delay?

00:09:06:07 - 00:09:27:20
Alan Godwin
Is this conniving or do they just do it? So routinely that they have long since lost any awareness that they're doing it? And I, I think both answers are applicable depending on the person. And I think there are some people that have been doing it for so long and they've been this is their standard operating procedure. They don't know they're doing it.

00:09:27:20 - 00:09:48:12
Alan Godwin
And and you pointed out or you try to point it out and they honestly deny it because I can't see it. I think there's other people that they have some awareness of the fact that they're doing it. And, and it's deliberately exploitative. But what I found is they don't see themselves as the bad guys. They see themselves as bad guys who are doing it to accomplish a good purpose.

00:09:48:12 - 00:10:12:05
Alan Godwin
Right? So, so even bad people can do bad things if it accomplishes good. And so they see themselves as the good guy in the drama, and you're the bad guys. So, I think they're really good at being able to, sniff out where our vulnerabilities are, and they can exploit those vulnerabilities. Yeah. And they look for weak spots in our defenses, and you can get hoodwinked without even knowing you got hoodwinked.

00:10:12:05 - 00:10:34:20
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, it feels like it happens so quickly. You know, I think, you know, I talk a lot about how trauma bonds are built. And I think that all those early stages of they're giving you everything and they're mirroring you and, you know, falling in love, it feels like they build that trust and dependency. And then that sort of lays the groundwork for cruelty and deception because you already trust them.

00:10:34:20 - 00:10:36:03
Lisa Sonni
It feels like you're too late.

00:10:36:05 - 00:11:09:05
Alan Godwin
Yeah. I tell you, tell people, tell clients sometimes, you know, what would be easier is if this person you're having these struggles with, if they were a consistent slime ball all the time, but it'd be easier to deal with because then you you could it just it's it's just simpler to kind of put them in that category. But what's confusing is they may be that way sometimes, and other times they just seem wonderful and stellar and and usually their negative qualities don't show up that much until you're close to them.

00:11:09:09 - 00:11:28:10
Alan Godwin
And so people from a distance, for instance, they may come to you and say, let's say this is your relative. They'll they'll come to you and say, I tell you what, your mother is just the finest person I've ever met in my whole life. You were so lucky to be raised by her, and you must just thank God every single day that you're raised by somebody like her.

00:11:28:13 - 00:11:39:05
Alan Godwin
And the person is thinking, you have no idea what my mother's actually like, because they relate to them from a distance and they don't see from a distance what's what's manifestly obvious up close. So it's very different. But

00:11:39:07 - 00:11:55:05
Lisa Sonni
I agree, I used to get all the time. You're so lucky. You're so lucky to be with a guy like him. He this, he that. And I'm like, because I don't want to be like, you have no idea what it's like. The confusion is always in that oscillation. And I think that's a huge part of it.

00:11:55:05 - 00:12:16:12
Lisa Sonni
Right? The the kindness mixed with cruelty. You never know when the cruelty is coming, that the days are so high, even though the lows are so low. Yeah. That's the addiction to the cycle. I suppose. It's it's really, really hard this story. It's not really built all at once. Right. It's piece by piece. I think that that slow construction of it.

00:12:16:12 - 00:12:19:12
Lisa Sonni
Why do you think that is? What makes it so convincing?

00:12:19:14 - 00:12:37:10
Alan Godwin
I think if, people knew up front the full extent of the story, they would automatically resist being put into it. So, you know, I don't mean to use the old worn out analogy about the frog in the water, but, you know, it's that old proverbial. That's actually not true, by the way. Frogs will actually jump out

00:12:37:10 - 00:12:42:12
Lisa Sonni
of the water. I'm glad you said that, because actually, I know that's a myth, but I love the story, so keep going. It's not true.

00:12:42:14 - 00:13:02:21
Alan Godwin
It's just not true. But but you know, you acclimate yourself to the temperature changes a little bit at the time until finally you are boiling and you just don't even know it. So, you know, you don't know how you got there. Now, I find that people's insight into this is really good in hindsight. And that's why people can be so self-deprecating.

00:13:03:00 - 00:13:18:12
Alan Godwin
Why didn't I see it? And, you know, how could I have been so blind? I think the question a lot of times ask is, how can I've been so stupid? And and it's really not stupidity. It's just that, you know, you can't see what you can't see. And, the important thing is to make use of what you do see later on.

00:13:18:12 - 00:13:29:15
Alan Godwin
So, I try to, you know, with clients who are dealing with this stuff, try to be healthier, not be so hard on themselves. It doesn't it doesn't do any good to be hard on yourself. You didn't say it. Well, now you do. Now what do you do about it?

00:13:29:15 - 00:13:46:12
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, just do something. Now. I feel like we hold ourselves accountable for what we know now, but didn't know then, because I feel like our brains can't remember what it was like to not know. You know, you mentioned how obvious it becomes at one point. You just can't see it. You can't not see it anymore. It's right there in front of you.

00:13:46:15 - 00:14:04:10
Lisa Sonni
But you didn't know back then. So now you know, now you can do something about it. You can change your behavior as needed. It's. Yeah, but a lot of women do feel that way, you know. And a stupid is definitely the number one word that I hear. Like I must be stupid because I didn't see this, but I know they're that good.

00:14:04:10 - 00:14:20:21
Lisa Sonni
And I don't say that to be complimentary to this type of exploitative, manipulative, no one person, but they are so good at it and they convince the people around us, not just us. It's all part of the building blocks. I think of how they create this whole story. Everybody thinks they're nice and believes them.

00:14:20:23 - 00:14:56:13
Alan Godwin
And here's the other thing about about the people we're talking about, they have highly skilled abilities to mimic normality. And they're not normal. They operate in a very abnormal, dysfunctional manner, but they're not stupid, and they're able to look around them and know what normality, looks like, and so they can mimic it and they can, and in some ways, their emotional survival is always dependent upon their acting ability. So they can mimic what looks normal. And people who want to give the others the benefit of the doubt or believe that that's what's true.

00:14:56:15 - 00:15:17:11
Alan Godwin
But, it's and it's usually not evident, except over time and exposure, because the longer in a relationship with them, the more you realize something about this is not right. This is I'm seeing some things now that really, it's always been the case that I've never quite known why it affects me the way it does, but this is really off.

00:15:17:14 - 00:15:41:21
Alan Godwin
So a lot of times people will start to have their own internal gut checks. You know that my guts have been reading this for a while. I've been ignoring it and now I can't ignore it any longer. So what was vaguely recognizable before starts to become clear with the passage of time. But. But even then, you still. But I think the tendency that people have is to give them the benefit of the doubt.

00:15:41:21 - 00:16:03:03
Alan Godwin
So it goes on longer. So, yeah. And I don't think they necessarily know what they're doing. Some do, but I think a lot of this is the way they've always been, and they don't know how to do anything else. So to them this is their their only relational method is drama. You know what? What we do is normal people,

00:16:03:03 - 00:16:23:23
Alan Godwin
if you have problems with somebody, you engage in a problem solving process. You know, where you talk things through, you resolve your differences, you clear things up as you go. And that requires that people, people be a be able to deal with their own negative contributions to the problem. Yeah, these people don't have what's required to deal with their flaws.

00:16:24:02 - 00:16:43:15
Alan Godwin
And so they have to construct an an alternate method of relating. And, and I think a as good a word as any for that alternate method is called drama. So the way the drama works is my role in this relationship. Is this your role in a relationship? Is that as long as we both stay inside of our drama roles, we'll have a great relationship, right? So,

00:16:43:19 - 00:17:02:12
Alan Godwin
but it's not a great relationship. It works great for them. So as long as you do what you're supposed to do, you get along. But. Right. It's it's, contingent relating. Because if you ever step outside of your drama obligation, pressure is going to be brought to bear on you to get back into your drama role.

00:17:02:12 - 00:17:20:13
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, that's it's no matter what you do. And I mean, that really describes certainly me, but so many women that I talk to men and women, but I deal with women. But yeah, if you feel like you're trying, you feel like you're doing something. They tell you if you would just this, then that wouldn't happen. So you stop doing that.

00:17:20:13 - 00:17:37:08
Lisa Sonni
But it still happens. And it's just it's a crazy making thing of, of you can't win. You're living in a double bind. A real life 24 hour a day double. It feels like you're always trying to get your needs met, thinking you're in a reciprocal relationship with someone and you're not.

00:17:37:10 - 00:18:00:18
Alan Godwin
And you're really good at, you know, a few years ago, if somebody had used the term gaslighting, no, nobody would know what that means. Now, everybody on the planet uses the term gaslighting. That's a really good term because, you know, it comes from that 1944 movie called Gaslight, where we'll give away the player. But the husband in the movie was trying to tell his wife that what she had seen and heard with her own ears never happened.

00:18:00:18 - 00:18:28:06
Alan Godwin
And basically, what are you saying? Don't trust your senses. Trust me. And those things never happened. Trust me to tell you what happened. And so if the gaslighting works, the person then starts to think, maybe I really am crazy. Maybe I misheard it, maybe what I saw or heard was my own distortion of reality. And the gaslighting works. The person gets all wrapped up in that, and they lose their grip on what's real and what's not. It's so

00:18:28:06 - 00:18:30:10
Alan Godwin
that's it's another exploitative technique.

00:18:30:10 - 00:18:50:07
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, it's crazy making you think it's just it really you lose your identity so much in that. And these are things that I think the average person we don't think about identity and attachment. We're just living life, you know? And when you start to really fall apart inside one of these relationships, you truly don't know who you are. You don't trust yourself.

00:18:50:13 - 00:19:08:13
Lisa Sonni
So a lot of people will say, why do you stay in contact with this person different when it's family? I suppose. But yeah, in a in a marriage, in a, in a personal relationship. Romantic relationship. Why why don't you just leave. You don't even know if you should leave. I think a lot of times you wonder if you're causing the problems and you're going to go and leave somebody who's probably not the problem.

00:19:08:13 - 00:19:11:12
Lisa Sonni
You're the problem, I think. Yeah. You don't know.

00:19:11:13 - 00:19:28:09
Alan Godwin
A quick story. I had a client a number years ago who? His business partner was one of these people and, for 30 years. And he said what he had learned was about every Friday afternoon, his partner would walk into his office, slammed the door and chew him out for 30 minutes and say, this is going wrong.

00:19:28:09 - 00:19:46:22
Alan Godwin
That's gone wrong. You need to fire the secretary. He make all these demands. He said it was so loud and raucous that you could hear the commotion throughout the entire business complex and my clients and what he had learned to do is he would wait till the guy ran out of steam and he'd look at him. He'd say, you know, that's all real interesting.

00:19:46:22 - 00:20:02:19
Alan Godwin
You want some gum? And it would not addresses. And the guy would bluster for a few more minutes, leave the office and say, oh, you're just impossible to deal with. Slam the door and my clients. And then I could get on back to work so that I knew it would take about another week for you to do it again.

00:20:02:19 - 00:20:18:12
Alan Godwin
And that's how he had learned to exist inside that environment, because, arguing with the guy was all it would do was make things worse. Oh, yeah. And he said that he had kind of learned how to contain it this way. He did that for him and me. I did coach him how to do that, but I thought that was brilliant.

00:20:18:13 - 00:20:27:18
Lisa Sonni
I actually kind of think that's brilliant. I'm big on not giving into the beating because they want the drama, they want the argument, the chaos, they want you just regulate exhaust.

00:20:27:22 - 00:20:28:22
Alan Godwin
Exactly. Right. Yeah.

00:20:28:22 - 00:20:47:11
Lisa Sonni
So just I mean, it's so easy to say, right. Just sit and sort of. Yeah, I don't even mean receive it, but just sort of sit and let it happen, let them exhaust themselves and then offer them some gum or just not engage in it in some way. And then, yeah, but you're right that it happens again a week later or whatever the length of time is, because I know it's different

00:20:47:14 - 00:21:06:18
Alan Godwin
for everyone [it'll happen again] Yeah. Yeah. I had a client that would her husband would do something similar that and she'd just look at him and she'd say, okay. Point noted. And just make her, you know, and because she realized there's no amount of discussion that's gonna make any difference, it's just going to use whatever I said and twist it to fit his own purposes. Yeah. And

00:21:06:18 - 00:21:20:16
Alan Godwin
so, that's that is very counter intuitive to do that. Yeah. That really runs against the, the grain at most people's human nature. Because what we feel like we all do stand up to that person and, and argue for what's true. Well good luck with that.

00:21:20:16 - 00:21:41:05
Lisa Sonni
Yeah I know. I wish you the but yeah, I think convincing someone who has no interest in the truth is obviously, quite the challenge, to say the least. It's an impossible task. They don't want you to be right. You could be right. You could have video evidence. You could have facts, statistics. You know, proof. It doesn't matter because they want to believe what they believe.

00:21:41:07 - 00:21:56:05
Lisa Sonni
I'm not even sure. I mean, a lot of people will say they believe their own lies. I think there's a bit of an oxymoron in that it's not that they believe lies, or they perceive them as lies, but they believe them. They just that's their reality. So it's it's a lie to you, to them, it's real to them it's true.

00:21:56:06 - 00:22:07:16
Lisa Sonni
So why aren't you just extricate yourself somehow? I know, I'm not saying just leave. I know it's very hard, my heart. But the goal is to not be in these relationships long term. Yeah. You can be yourself

00:22:07:16 - 00:22:28:01
Alan Godwin
at what? I find myself spending a lot of time with a client. Some of us doing is coming up with strategies of drama nonparticipation now, that varies depending on the relationship and the circumstances. So it's not like a one size fits all way to do that. And a lot of times we have to craft that given their particulars and their situation.

00:22:28:01 - 00:22:51:18
Alan Godwin
So but ultimately that's what's going to help them to become drama non participants. and I'll throw this in here. There are some people and I kind of divide this into three different categories of responses to drama non participation. There are some people that if you refuse to participate in their drama, the first thing they're going to do is they're going to escalate the drama and get worse.

00:22:51:22 - 00:23:15:12
Alan Godwin
But if you leave them in that place of escalation all by themselves and you refuse to ever become part of the drama a segment of people that will actually respond to that frustration in a positive way and start to actually grow, so they actually can, over time, emerge out of that, out of that place. I mean, sometimes it's it's fashionable to say, these people never change.

00:23:15:12 - 00:23:33:20
Alan Godwin
Don't waste your time. I think a lot of people never change and it is a waste of time. But there are some people that if if you refuse to participate in their drama, it will be so discombobulating to them that they will respond to that frustration by starting to grow some parts they never had before, so they can actually start to develop what's not there.

00:23:33:23 - 00:23:59:13
Alan Godwin
So that's one one level. I think another level is, they're not going to grow. They will escalate the drama and eventually end the relationship with you and take their drama show to someone else who is a more willing participant. And so, with the first level, the person changes. With this level, the relationship changes. Yeah, it may become non-existent or it may become much more limited.

00:23:59:13 - 00:24:22:00
Alan Godwin
There's a third level of people if you don't participate in their drama, they really become dangerous. And, they, they will hurt you or they will try to destroy you in some way. So here we're talking about domestic abusers. We're talking about, mob bosses, terrorist, you know, people that, they are a threat to you physically. Or it may be not physical, but it may be financial.

00:24:22:00 - 00:24:41:21
Alan Godwin
You know, they'll destroy your ability to ever make a living in this city again, or they're destroy your reputation. They'll kill your reputation. So, that's kind of I think it's helpful to have understanding that everybody's response to drama non participation is not the same. It kind of depends on the person. And sometimes you don't know until you've done it and find out what happens.

00:24:41:21 - 00:25:03:23
Lisa Sonni
Right. And the test is very dangerous and again depending on who you're talking to. But yeah I probably unknowingly engaged in this nonparticipation I just I'm not even sure what language I used in my own head back then, because now I would say not being baited into this argument or this what drama. But it it for me, I was in that third category, so it created violence.

00:25:04:02 - 00:25:08:08
Lisa Sonni
How would you suggest people assess what they might be facing?

00:25:08:10 - 00:25:26:16
Alan Godwin
That's a that's a wonderful question. And I don't know if I have a wonderful answer to that. I think part of it this is kind of obvious to say this, but I think part of it is what's the history? You know, if they ever, were done something that's dangerous, you know, they ever or threatened something that's dangerous. If so, you need to proceed with caution.

00:25:26:18 - 00:25:44:21
Alan Godwin
And don't don't just assume it's going to be okay, but you may have some history with this person. It would suggest I don't I don't know that I trust my safety with this person. So I think you have to pay attention to that. And with some people, you have to have a safety plan. And, you know, if you're going to do this, have a go bag or something,

00:25:44:21 - 00:26:04:19
Alan Godwin
you know, where you can have some friends that know your whereabouts or you have a place to go, you know, if you ever need to, I think the other two levels, it's a little bit, it's a little bit more ambiguous exactly what might happen because, I'm trying to help people not assume that if they become drama participants that that’s gonna end the relationship, because I've seen it happen the other way.

00:26:04:19 - 00:26:25:18
Alan Godwin
I mean, they they really do step out of it and surprise and surprise, a person actually does start to grow and they develop. They they don't turn into a perfect individual, but they, they may start to develop some reason, abilities that they never appeared to have. But you wouldn't have known that had you continued, operating inside the drama.

00:26:25:18 - 00:26:48:11
Alan Godwin
So sometimes stepping outside of the drama reveals the true nature of what's there. And there's other people that are going to just double down and they're going to become worse. And so you cannot be prepared to say, I don't want the relationship to end, but it may end. Yeah. And it will end because I'm going to relate normally, but that doesn't mean the other person will end it.

00:26:48:11 - 00:26:54:12
Alan Godwin
They choose not to. As sad as I might be about that, that may be, what I have to live with.

00:26:54:12 - 00:27:16:04
Lisa Sonni
it is. It's sad to to think that the relationship would end. I think I also deal with a population of of people who are like I do. I'm not interested in the relationship being over, but I do hope that this person gets better or what can I do to help them? Yeah, that's a difficult spot to be because I think at the end of the day, what I'm going, I think I'm hearing is focusing on yourself is big.

00:27:16:04 - 00:27:46:23
Lisa Sonni
It's it's a huge part of this, whether you are whether you're not at the stage of making the decision to leave or to stay. I think focusing on yourself and your and I say your contributions, I don't mean we're contributing to our own abuse. I mean any dynamic in the relationship. I can't control if the other person is cruel or kind or moody or screaming at me, but I can control if I participate in the drama and I'm in control of myself, and I can decide if I want to fight, if I want to not fight, if I want to leave the relationship,

00:27:46:23 - 00:27:49:13
Lisa Sonni
I just want people to know they have the power.

00:27:49:15 - 00:28:11:03
Alan Godwin
Right? Yeah. And, you know, the, the nature of a drama and there's, there's multiple types of dramas, but the nature of a drama is if I'm this person, my role is this, your role is that. And you're only permitted to be the part of yourself that I need you to be. So if I'm a controller, what I need from you is submission.

00:28:11:03 - 00:28:41:19
Alan Godwin
And as long as you use the submission part of yourself to relate to me, we will have a match made in heaven, you know? And so everything is is wonderful and peachy and keen. And so what people don't realize is to be in a relationship with somebody like this, they've had to, diminish themselves to have the relationship that the other person demands. They've had to take some parts of their personality and put them off to the side and only be the part that that person allows.

00:28:41:19 - 00:28:59:11
Alan Godwin
So when I'm talking about drama nonparticipation, I'm not saying that you get up in the person's face and you wag your finger in their face and say, see here, narcissist, I'm not going to be who you need me. But it's more I'm not going to be that one poorer. I mean, if submission is appropriate in a certain setting, sure.

00:28:59:11 - 00:29:19:10
Alan Godwin
But I'm not going to only be the submissive part, I'm going to be the other parts of me that I need to be realizing that when I do that, that person's going to resist it. So part of drama, non participation is just the determination. And I'm not just going to be the part they need, I'm going to be the other parts myself.

00:29:19:14 - 00:29:39:15
Alan Godwin
So that's that's a that's a part of what it means to become a drama. Not not participant. Is that, just be who you are. And there are some people that will say, well, if you're going to do that, I don't want to have anything to do with you anymore. But like I say, there's a subset that it's so discombobulating to the person, it drops sand into their mental gears.

00:29:39:19 - 00:29:51:14
Alan Godwin
And I don't I don't know what to do with that. And there are some people that can actually start to develop what they don't have. And so that's why I try to tell people it's not necessarily overt, but you won't know until you become a non participant.

00:29:51:14 - 00:29:56:01
Lisa Sonni
Right. And it's good either way. You know, least you know what you're dealing with.

00:29:56:03 - 00:29:57:04
Alan Godwin
Yeah that's right. Yeah.

00:29:57:05 - 00:30:07:18
Lisa Sonni
Now I want to shift a little. You have said that people will sort of cling to this false story if it meets their attachment and identity needs. How does that actually show up in an intimate relationship?

00:30:07:20 - 00:30:27:10
Alan Godwin
We all want attachment. I mean, you know, that's that's part of our wiring is and we're wired for attachments. And so, you know, whether it's, a spouse or relationship or it's friendships, we really yearn to be, connected to other people. Now, there's we're not all exactly the same there. There's some people that are more introverted, some are more extroverted.

00:30:27:10 - 00:30:51:21
Alan Godwin
But regardless of where you fall on that continuum, we all have attachment needs. So, these people that we're talking about can appeal to those attachment mates. And so what they, seem to promise is if you want your attachment needs met, here's a place to get those needs met. But what what's not evident when you're doing that is that there's a price that comes with that attachment.

00:30:52:01 - 00:31:15:20
Alan Godwin
So it's a little bit of a Faustian bargain.. You know, you you make the deal to get into the relationship with this person. And then you find out there's more required of you in this relationship than I let on. So you got pulled in, by your attachment needs. Now, if you've stayed in it long enough, after a while, that starts to become your your, self-definition.

00:31:15:20 - 00:31:35:12
Alan Godwin
You know, this is this is kind of who I am. I am a person in this relationship. And we also don't want to give up identity needs, very easily. So the thought is, if I get out of this relationship, who am I? And so, yeah, identity needs can be exploited to pull somebody into a drama arrangement in your identity

00:31:35:13 - 00:31:44:05
Alan Godwin
needs can be exploited to keep you in that right arrangement. So, you know, they kind of get you coming in and get you when you're trying to leave, you know, both ways.

00:31:44:07 - 00:32:10:04
Lisa Sonni
we sort of live in this story that this person is I guess I'm talking about romantic partnerships, but you are in a healthy relationship and that you're the problem. Or somehow I feel like the survivor or the victim is always taking on that. They're the problem and their partner is maybe the victim. I don't know about victim of abuse, but like the victim of trauma and life circumstances and but yet generally I see I know it's not always the case.

00:32:10:10 - 00:32:20:12
Lisa Sonni
Intelligent, self-aware, loyal, agreeable, conscientious people end up in these relationships. What are they doing that overriding their own instincts? Do you think?

00:32:20:13 - 00:32:39:18
Alan Godwin
Well, I think it's real easy to lose your bearings. You know, you you didn't see it. And then after you start to see it, you don't want to admit that you didn't see it. And it's a little bit shaming to think. I don't want to have to admit now that I missed something that was there in front of my eyes, and it's a little bit embarrassing to to admit that

00:32:39:18 - 00:32:55:10
Alan Godwin
so and implies, like I was saying a minute ago, if you're a normal person, you kind of want to give the other person the benefit of the doubt. And so you continue to do that over and over, and then you continue to find out that they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt that you were granting to them.

00:32:55:13 - 00:33:21:05
Alan Godwin
And so, an awareness starts to emerge that, now I'm in this damned if I do, damned if I don't situation it. If I stay in, that's bad. If I get out, that's bad. And people can sit inside that dilemma for long stretches of time and just don't know what to do. when I say that that's not in any way to be critical of people that are in that situation because it's just very, very hard, to know

00:33:21:08 - 00:33:30:12
Alan Godwin
there's no good options. that's the way the thinking goes. Now, there is a good option. Yes. Ultimately it would be good for you to get out of it. But at the time, it doesn't look like there's any good option.

00:33:30:12 - 00:33:52:00
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. I always say to people it's like two sucky options right in front of you. Option A pain. Option B pain. How do you choose? Although as you pointed out right, one is forever pain and one is short term pain. But long term, you have a chance to get out and find yourself and focus on yourself and actually be happy and not live in this drama filled story.

00:33:52:03 - 00:33:52:21
Lisa Sonni
Really?

00:33:52:23 - 00:34:13:08
Alan Godwin
I try to get across to people. Sometimes you people can come to a place where they realize the pain of staying is greater than the pain of leaving, so it's going to be painful either way. But I got to choose my pain. And, what I've determined is staying in this arrangement is going to be so much more. There's so much more long term pain with this.

00:34:13:08 - 00:34:17:09
Alan Godwin
There's going to be some short term pain. But at least on the other side of that, there's some blue sky.

00:34:17:10 - 00:34:39:20
Lisa Sonni
I think when we're stuck in this, you know, the the partner of the victim, the survivor, we become so responsible not just for the abuser's emotions, but also upholding the story. I've often and I guess, you know, I sadly write lots of personal experience here. But what I see in clients even is if we admit that this person is abusive, then you have to admit that you're just staying with an abuser.

00:34:39:21 - 00:35:07:18
Lisa Sonni
Are you stupid? So of course you're going to sort of uphold the story, because you don't want people to know that you're the kind of person that would stay in an abusive relationship. You're dumb. So we don't tell people. on one hand, we're protecting them, especially if in the beginning, you know, it's just an argument. I'm not going to go around slandering my partner and saying they're an abuser or a bad person because of a couple of arguments, because of a bit of bad behavior, because he's just traumatized or whatever we tell ourselves.

00:35:07:20 - 00:35:22:20
Lisa Sonni
But we're also protecting ourselves and them the whole story. And they rely on this, and I think they use a lot of tactics. Gaslighting is definitely one of them. But, you know, rewriting history and coercive control just to kind of get you in the story.

00:35:22:22 - 00:35:40:01
Alan Godwin
And you know what? I find a lot I see this happen quite often. Somebody I'm talking to my office about this situation, trying to figure out what to do to extricate themselves from it. It's a price to pay, and they may have people in their lives who will say things to them. Like what? I tell you what I would do, I would fill in the blank.

00:35:40:06 - 00:36:02:15
Alan Godwin
And a lot of times that's easy for that other person to say, but they don't have the ramifications that this person is going to hear from leaving. And so I think it's a legitimate choice for some people to say there's a larger set of factors here that, I'm going to maintain my presence in this drama for the time being, because right now, the ramifications would be so destructive.

00:36:02:15 - 00:36:23:23
Alan Godwin
So I'm going to, a ride it out for the time being. And that's different from saying, I just hope some day it gets better and turn a blind eye. They know what they're doing, their eyes are open, but they they maintain presence in it because they've weighed the costs. They've looked at all them. They've done the cost benefit analysis and they've they've determined for the time being, I need to maintain this thing, okay.

00:36:24:01 - 00:36:42:09
Alan Godwin
And sometimes that's when kids are involved. You know, so there's other factors that come into play there. So I try to be very, I have a lot of latitude that I try to grant to people say, regardless of what anybody else may say to you, this has got to be your choice. And, just just wanting to make your choice with your eyes open,

00:36:42:09 - 00:36:45:06
Alan Godwin
regardless of what you choose, you need to know what you're choosing.

00:36:45:06 - 00:37:08:06
Lisa Sonni
Oh, that's so true. You know, I feel we start to see things there. There comes a point where you just, You know, this seems like a pattern. This is a you keep saying this, but then that. So once we start to kind of see it, I think we're resisting the truth. It shatters the whole story. But what do you feel like that first kind of crack in the story usually looks like for the survivor?

00:37:08:11 - 00:37:42:23
Alan Godwin
I think it usually starts with a gut feeling, you know, it's more you, sense it before you see it and see it and hear it. So, you know, the sort of the popular term these days is spidey sense, you know, that your your spidey senses are tingling and, you may dismiss them at the time, but in hindsight, you look back and go, yeah, I've been I've been feeling this for a while, but it just took some time for a pattern to emerge. And you may have some specific, recollections and things that were done and things that were said by that other person.

00:37:42:23 - 00:38:10:22
Alan Godwin
But a lot of times what precedes that is how it feels. So and and you know, I, I try to get people to take feelings with a grain of salt. They may be telling you something accurate. They may not just don't disregard the right and pay attention to them and see what happens with those over time. So usually I think that's kind of the first thing is, that I'd say another thing. all have the tendency to normalize the abnormal and disregard things that are bothering us.

00:38:11:02 - 00:38:37:13
Alan Godwin
And so sometimes what happens is, a person will tell a friend what this other person said or what they did, and the other person, their jaw drops. I mean, their mouth is agape and they go, what? And so what they're picking up from the other person is, is the sense of shock that you ought to be feeling, but you've numbed yourself a enough to it that you didn't even realize it was shocking anymore.

00:38:37:17 - 00:38:58:09
Alan Godwin
So sometimes what we pick up from other people, their reaction is instructive for maybe what we should be feeling when we've just stopped feeling it, because there's a certain sense in which you kind of have to numb yourself to stay in these relationships for any period of time. So, you know, the the feedback of others, I think, is something needs to be paid attention to in this regard.

00:38:58:09 - 00:39:20:16
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, that makes so much sense. You know, I think when we come out of this realizing or at least feeling like you've been living in a lie your whole life has been a story. I think for the people that have been in these relationships for decades long, I don't mean to compare trauma. I always feel like it's got to be harder. If you've my husband of 30 years or you know, something really long term, it feels like, has anything been real?

00:39:20:16 - 00:39:36:03
Lisa Sonni
Is am I just so you you lose so much in that you it's like you, you've lost your life, feeling like you have been living in a complete lie. So of course, letting go of this is, I mean, painful. Doesn't feel like the right word, but not really painful.

00:39:36:05 - 00:40:01:10
Alan Godwin
Yeah, that's the identity part of it. You know Unwittingly, what's happened to you over time is your life inside. That story has become you. It's become become who you are. That's kind of your identity. And so the idea of stepping outside of this story and having to construct a different identity is, is awfully daunting. Now, I don't think you really have to construct a different identity.

00:40:01:10 - 00:40:18:10
Alan Godwin
I think you're recapturing the identity that you had in you lost. Yes. But that's a hard thing to get across. But it, it it can like there's some awfully strong forces of poor people. End of the story. There's some forces that make it very difficult to leave. And it's hard to know that there's life on the other side. But there is.

00:40:18:10 - 00:40:39:15
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. I you know, I can attest to that. I tell a story sometimes about laying on the bathroom floor screen crying into towels. So my kids didn't hear me, just absolutely devastated, shattered from everything that was happening and honestly, shock and disbelief and all the things. And I couldn't imagine a life of not loving him. I couldn't imagine a life that didn't include him.

00:40:39:19 - 00:40:59:14
Lisa Sonni
And my worst nightmare was not being with him. And I look back and I'm like, oh my God, that was so dramatic. I honestly, my world was so wrapped up in that and I am genuinely more happy, more me than I've ever been. And I know that life I don't know. That's not everybody's story, but life is better without an abusive person in your life.

00:40:59:19 - 00:41:08:18
Lisa Sonni
I will die on that hill. That is, you know, you will be happier in all or most ways eventually. You just got to get through that. It's worse. First.

00:41:08:20 - 00:41:30:10
Alan Godwin
You know, the I had it, dispute with my daughter about what the subtitle, my recent book and the title is ties that line and, what we ended up with was unraveling stories that keep us in the dark. And I had to give her credit. That was actually her the her idea, the title I had before she did. Like she said, it sounded too academic.

00:41:30:10 - 00:41:47:03
Alan Godwin
She said I probably wouldn't read it, but what I was going to say, as the subtitle was, when we embrace stories that distort reality and disintegrate the self. So I've kept that theme. I just took it out of the subtitle so she would that would that battle. Right. I'm glad that she won that.

00:41:47:03 - 00:41:55:15
Lisa Sonni
I agree with her. But but, in terms of how it sounds, but I understand the concept of what you're so I get it. I'm love that you kept that the concept because it's.

00:41:55:17 - 00:42:17:05
Alan Godwin
Yeah. It's it's in the first page or two is the theme of the book. And so to be in these, these relationships, it distorts reality, but it disintegrates it disintegrates the self. And you have to become a lesser version of yourself in order to, to be part of this story, whether it's on an individual level or if this is happening collectively.

00:42:17:08 - 00:42:34:17
Alan Godwin
So part of what happens if you are able to, exit the story is you become a more integrated version of yourself. You become who you actually are and you become all the parts of yourself now have the freedom to develop. And that's what's supposed to happen in healthy, normal relationships.

00:42:34:17 - 00:42:57:10
Lisa Sonni
Agreed. That is what's supposed to happen. A lot of people don't have that framework to even know, like, this is what healthy looks like. And this is what unhealthy looks like. If it's all you've ever known. That's right. It's is it's hard for people to recognize it. But I think once you start to see the patterns and you start to see the stories, and I think you start to realize that these lies and these stories being made in abusive relationships, they're not random at all.

00:42:57:10 - 00:43:22:07
Lisa Sonni
They're very strategic and very systemic. I think we need to see that and then focus on ourselves to make decisions that ultimately will lead us right out of these relationships. Yeah. It's it's hugely important. Before we wrap up, what do you think? Is there anything, you know, that you would want to say to survivors or victims that are still in the relationships of what they might need to know about these stories, that might help them?

00:43:22:09 - 00:43:49:04
Alan Godwin
Yeah. I, I use there's a line, I'll quote you a line from, that I used in the book. My book is about two stories. One and one stories about an individual that got blinded by the story. The second one is how that happens collectively. And, in both stories, I use this line that some people get lost in a cave only illumined by a sliver of light, and wander further into the cave where there is no light.

00:43:49:06 - 00:44:09:10
Alan Godwin
Other people follow the light and get closer and closer to the cave's entrances. They follow the line. So that's true on an individual level. Again, it can happen, but also for people to get wrapped up in collective deception. So, following the line is always a good idea. And I, I think there's some people that get so lost in the story.

00:44:09:10 - 00:44:27:09
Alan Godwin
They're so far in out of the cave, they don't even see any light anymore. And they may they may be, retrievable. I think there's other people that haven't disregarded the light. And so just keep following the light. And I think one of the ways to put it when somebody walks into an office like mine, they're that's kind of a, an act of following the light.

00:44:27:09 - 00:44:47:00
Alan Godwin
They're trying to figure out. I don't know what that light is up there. I just know there's something better than this darkness that I'm in. So I think all all that we're saying, I think, is ultimately hopeful because there's always a chance that somebody can emerge from the darkness by following the light. I don't mean that sound too poetic or esoteric, but I think there's there's truth to that.

00:44:47:00 - 00:45:00:11
Lisa Sonni
I'm so appreciative of your knowledge and sharing this and you being here. I really encourage everyone to run to go get your book because honestly, it was such a great read and learned so much. I appreciate you and thank you for being here.

00:45:00:13 - 00:45:03:23
Alan Godwin
Well, it's been a pleasure being with you. I appreciate you having me on.

00:45:04:01 - 00:45:13:10
Lisa Sonni
If this episode gave you clarity. Share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember, you're stronger than before.

00:45:13:12 - 00:45:17:16
Music
Stronger than before.