He Knows, He Just Doesn’t Care. The Truth About Abuse and “Communication” w Aishia Grevenberg | S3E2

If you have ever thought, “I just need him to understand”, the truth is, he already does.

Lisa is joined by therapist and survivor Aishia Grevenberg for a raw, no-nonsense conversation about why abusive men do not change through communication, therapy, or better explanations. Together, they dismantle the comforting myth that he is confused, emotionally unaware, or just needs you to say it differently.

They explore why abusive men communicate just fine at work, with friends, and in public, yet suddenly “don’t understand” when you express pain. Why couples therapy often makes things worse. Why explaining, proving, and defending yourself keeps you stuck. And why abuse is not a communication issue, but a power issue rooted in entitlement and control.

Aishia breaks down how men use emotional reactions as fuel, how calm becomes your exit instead of your weapon, and why waiting for an epiphany is not the same as change. Lisa weaves in lived experience, naming the moment many survivors finally see the truth. He heard you, he understood you, and he chose to keep hurting you.

Freedom begins when you stop explaining and start listening to what his behavior has been telling you all along.

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:08:17
Music


00:00:08:19 - 00:00:15:08
Lisa Sonni
This is real talk with Lisa Sonni - Relationships Uncensored, the podcast. They don't want you listening to.

00:00:15:10 - 00:00:17:04
Aishia Grevenberg


00:00:17:06 - 00:00:36:22
Lisa Sonni
If you've ever said, I just need him to understand. If you've ever found yourself just explaining again and again why this person is hurting you and begging them to change, this episode is absolutely for you. And I am joined again by someone who was a guest in season one, and it was an incredible episode that you absolutely need to check out.

00:00:37:02 - 00:00:56:06
Lisa Sonni
But I am joined by a therapist, Aisha Gravenberch, who is the perfect person to talk to you about this because you are so real talk. You know, you really just say what this is and I love you. Just cut through the noise. So if anybody hasn't met you from the first episode, can you just quickly tell us a little bit about who you are?

00:00:56:08 - 00:01:23:15
Aishia Grevenberg
Yes. I love telling folks how I got to this point. So the only thing I have ever done in my entire career is mental health. That's all I've done. So I graduated in two. Oh, we're going to go ahead and date ourselves 2002. So from that moment until this moment, I've been working with people and I've actually worked with psychopaths, and I've worked with them in a way that a lot of therapists have not.

00:01:23:15 - 00:01:42:16
Aishia Grevenberg
So I have the lived experience of working with psychopaths and their families. I've worked in jails with them. I've been in jails. I've been in a jail riot girl. We can just talk about all of this work that I've done. And then for the past ten years I've been in private practice. So I've been working exclusively, mostly with women and with men.

00:01:42:20 - 00:01:58:05
Aishia Grevenberg
I do have a lot of men that I work with that are in abusive relationships, and so I have a lot of experience with this. I'm also a survivor of domestic violence. I live in Las Vegas. I live in Mexico. I'm a rich auntie. I do all the things. But this is something I'm very passionate about.

00:01:58:07 - 00:02:16:10
Lisa Sonni
And I'm so glad you are because I watch a lot of your content online and I'm always like, yes, this is she gets it, I love this. So I've known for years through online, and I just always love watching your videos and talking to you. And I know that you're going to have a hot take on this topic about the men that just don't care.

00:02:16:13 - 00:02:32:12
Lisa Sonni
You know, this often gets framed as a miscommunication. You know, he doesn't understand. And I admit I felt that way. I was always like, he doesn't get it. So I need to explain it. And then he doesn't get that. And it must be the way I'm wording this. I just need to give him an example. What if I relate it to his life?

00:02:32:17 - 00:02:45:08
Lisa Sonni
What if I use an example where this if this happened to him at work, then I was always twisting myself to make him understand. And one day this like reality just slammed me. He knows. He knew that.

00:02:45:10 - 00:03:05:23
Aishia Grevenberg
Yeah. He. And this is a thing these men go to work every day. They communicate well at work. A lot of them are in leadership positions at work. A lot of them have degrees. A lot of them they have friends. They play basketball. You communicate all day playing basketball. They on the the video games, they're talking all the time. So you communicate well.

00:03:06:01 - 00:03:20:01
Aishia Grevenberg
Communication is not your issue. You are dedicated to misunderstanding me. That is what's going on. And see, that's what we have a hard time accepting that these men have no issue. Communication is not the issue. Never has been. Never will be. Period. Period.

00:03:20:03 - 00:03:45:18
Lisa Sonni
Full stop like that? Yeah. You said something which is actually a little bit. What inspired this? In our first episode that we did in season one? That abusive men are not going to change in therapy. And I want to connect this to this topic, which is really, you know, can he change in it's communication, the framing of it's a communication issue, I think, is what leads people to tell him he needs therapy, whether that's individual or couples work.

00:03:45:20 - 00:03:56:11
Lisa Sonni
But this this concept that he can be helped in therapy because it's a communication issue. Couples therapy often frames it like, okay, here's how we can communicate better. Why does this miss the mark?

00:03:56:16 - 00:04:12:23
Aishia Grevenberg
Here's the thing, girl. So I was in a training because earlier this year, maybe 2 or 3 months ago, I was like, you know what? I'm going to start treating couples right. I always give couples counselors the blues. I'm like, I'm going to I'm going to treat them. But before I do that, I'm going to take a course.

00:04:13:01 - 00:04:28:19
Aishia Grevenberg
I'm not just going to hop in there and say, you know, I've been doing this a long time. I can work with this population. Full stop. I went to a course. I'm not even going to name the course, right? I went to the course and a part of the training was a couple. There was domestic violence in the relationship and the training.

00:04:28:23 - 00:04:49:18
Aishia Grevenberg
This is couples training I just took this year. A couple months ago, the therapist was saying that domestic violence is an outside issue and that the man is working on a domestic violence in therapy. And in the therapy session with the couples. I'm about to jump up out my chair in the therapy session. That communication, you have to learn how to communicate and ask him how he's feeling.

00:04:49:22 - 00:05:07:10
Aishia Grevenberg
This is the training I just had. I just had this training. I'm not making it up. When I tell you I was melting, I was these were all new therapists. And this is the training that they're getting, all new therapists. I was one of the only ones that had any type of experience there. And this is being taught like domestic violence is an outside issue.

00:05:07:14 - 00:05:10:09
Aishia Grevenberg
He's yelling because you're not listening to him. Which

00:05:10:09 - 00:05:17:14
Lisa Sonni
teaches what these men want us to teach. And I maybe want to ask you, what was the who was the trainer?

00:05:17:16 - 00:05:35:20
Aishia Grevenberg
There was. So this is a very, very popular approach. I'm not going to call them out, but a very popular approach to couples therapy. That's why I chose this one. I'm like, I'm going to I'm going to do the whole training, get the whole thing. When I tell you I was so angry. This is what is being taught.

00:05:36:00 - 00:05:54:11
Aishia Grevenberg
And so the woman was so the man this is I'm not making this up. The man got angry with her and she was in the bedroom and he ripped the sheets off the bed. Really angry in her face to intimidate her. It wasn't called out as intimidation. It wasn't called out as him trying to assert dominance and scaring her.

00:05:54:11 - 00:05:58:09
Aishia Grevenberg
She even said, well, I'm really scared. And the therapist was like, well, did you tell him that?

00:05:58:09 - 00:06:14:11
Lisa Sonni
Did you say that you're scared as if you can really tell someone that you're scared of that you're scared because I got to tell you, I don't know about you. I made that mistake once. I told my abuser, you're scaring me. And it actually escalated the situation beyond. Yes, I can describe to you. He read his lip.

00:06:14:14 - 00:06:33:00
Lisa Sonni
You're scared. You're scared? Oh, my God, you're ridiculous. You're acting like a victim. Like it made him so much more angry, which made me more scared. And then I was backtracking. Like, not scared. Scared? I just meant you're trying to, like, trip over my words to get myself out of this situation. But look at the framing of that.

00:06:33:03 - 00:06:38:12
Lisa Sonni
And to be fair, I meant like gender was the trainer, but not necessarily the name of the person. But it sounds like it was a man.

00:06:38:16 - 00:06:39:17
Aishia Grevenberg
It was a woman.

00:06:39:17 - 00:06:41:03
Lisa Sonni
That's worse. Somehow.

00:06:41:08 - 00:07:05:15
Aishia Grevenberg
Yes. That As much worse. And of course I asked. I'm like, this is unsafe. This is a safety issue. In the chat, I'm going insane. And she was like, well, that's a training. That's a higher training. So you want me to pay more money to figure out how to work with couples that are having this issue? But you're telling me to do it this way? Now, this is what's happening, and mental health is really being pushed where it's inappropriate.

00:07:05:20 - 00:07:22:04
Aishia Grevenberg
And the idea that individual therapy is the answer for everything is inaccurate. It's just inaccurate. And when you think about, okay, my dude is being abusive to me and I'm scared of him, if you are scared of him, why are you sending him to my office? Do you understand what I'm saying? Like what? I'm scared.

00:07:22:09 - 00:07:26:02
Lisa Sonni
So what do you mean? Yeah. Why do you. Why?

00:07:26:06 - 00:07:43:10
Aishia Grevenberg
He loves you and he talks to you crazy. How is he going to talk to me? Why would I put myself in a situation with someone who's dangerous? I'm not set up to manage that type of behavior. No individual therapist is. These men are stalking. They'll call you. They'll harass you if they do that to you. What do you think they can do to me?

00:07:43:12 - 00:08:04:11
Aishia Grevenberg
it's not appropriate. It's not appropriate. They're not going to learn about their behavior because they don't listen to women. And so in groups with men where they can communicate with each other. And I've let groups like this, that is much more beneficial to have a man say to another man, you know what, that was wrong. That's not how you treat a woman, bro.

00:08:04:11 - 00:08:19:02
Aishia Grevenberg
Like what's going on? Like, talk to us about how you feel. You know what I mean? Like in that setting where they can communicate with each other, that's way more effective. But just that that's back and forth communication with me is not going to make him stop hitting you or being abusive to you.

00:08:19:04 - 00:08:31:12
Lisa Sonni
That's crazy. Talking solved these problems. You know, you once said that it's a sociological issue. Yes. Not you know, and that's why it's not going to work in therapy. Can you kind of explain what you meant by that?

00:08:31:15 - 00:09:02:01
Aishia Grevenberg
Sure. So the idea that patriarchy gives men the authority and the permission to use their dominance to intimidate people and to be purposely infantile, right. So it's like I'm in control, but I'm also infantile, like I have these big emotions that have to take up the room and you have to acquiesce. And so there's all this tit for tat that is deeply ingrained in men from a cultural perspective, that just talking about it is not going to undo this is indoctrination.

00:09:02:04 - 00:09:24:06
Aishia Grevenberg
And so to understand that there needs to be a sociological shift where you know what, it's not okay for you not to pay child support. It's not okay for you to be abusive to your wife. But what happens is men are pedestalized for this behavior because they're powerful and other men want their power. They don't want to make sure women are not being oppressed and abused.

00:09:24:06 - 00:09:41:08
Aishia Grevenberg
They want that power. And so when you have that narrative, how am I going to convince any man that Diddy is a problem when Diddy is a billionaire? what man is going to say, I don't want $1 billion, I don't want $1 billion? The narrative is that when you have a certain amount, you can do whatever you want,

00:09:41:08 - 00:09:51:15
Aishia Grevenberg
and as long as that is appealing, what is therapy going to do? How are we going to convince men that there is a benefit to treating women like people? What's the benefit? You're going to get $1 million, you

00:09:51:15 - 00:10:14:13
Lisa Sonni
know. They don't see a benefit. I think it's so important to know that men are giving something up when they. I'm majorly quoting the word allow women to have a quality. Men feel that they. In fact, I saw a video today of some dude, some dude going on about how he, as a I think he said he's a Gen Z and that tracks he did not agree.

00:10:14:13 - 00:10:38:10
Lisa Sonni
His generation did not agree to let women behave the way they're behaving. Right now. It's the older generations, the boomers and the Gen Xers who quote, let women behave this way now. So how long do we quote dumb women think they're going to let us go on like this. Let us keep treating men this way. I literally watched the video with my mouth open the entire time.

00:10:38:10 - 00:10:59:19
Lisa Sonni
No, because to be fair, the word let. I think I went deaf after that. there's an automatic belief system, which is really what we're talking about here. This bait, in our belief that they have the ability to let us do or not do anything. That's like he walked face first into the problem. Why does he think that? It's the same with the men who think, you know, we built the world.

00:10:59:19 - 00:11:18:00
Lisa Sonni
Women are living in the world we built. You didn't let us build anything. And now you want gratitude for all the things you restricted us from. Are you crazy? So I would love to know. And I'm asking sarcastically, how you, a therapist who is trained can help that man. This type of man in your office.

00:11:18:02 - 00:11:39:06
Aishia Grevenberg
So that type of man I see and substance abuse and a lot of my work with men is based on addictions and compulsive behaviors. And so men with that attitude, this is a personality thing. Right. And so that level of entitlement, I can do what I want, whatever I want often leads. It leads directly to abuse, but it also leads to addiction.

00:11:39:12 - 00:11:58:05
Aishia Grevenberg
And so when I've worked with men like that, there's individually nothing I can do for them, you understand? And I know that. But in the group setting, when they are challenged by other men who are, this is men. Men have a hierarchy. So if the man that's the biggest man in the room, right, puffs up and says, and is like, why are you talking to women like that?

00:11:58:09 - 00:12:17:02
Aishia Grevenberg
Now? We got a different situation right now. Now I'm going to cut just facilitating what's happening because this is a narrative that only they can fix. This is not a women's issue. This is a men's issue. This don't have nothing to do with us. This is about them. And they want us to be involved when it when we it's not about women.

00:12:17:07 - 00:12:42:18
Aishia Grevenberg
This is how men relate to other men. This is men challenging other men. There are men that are doing this kind of work. They just don't have the profile that they need to have. But there are men that are actively saying she is not your rehab, she's not to rehab. And this advocate is out of New Zealand. And I found him on YouTube because his mom was beaten to death, she was beaten to death, and he witnessed his mom being beat.

00:12:42:20 - 00:13:04:22
Aishia Grevenberg
And so he started this organization called She's Not Your Rehab and is for the his cultural group in New Zealand because they struggle a lot with domestic violence and gender inequality. And so he's a barber. He goes around the world talking about how men can heal so that they stop projecting all of their problems onto women. But it takes men like that.

00:13:05:00 - 00:13:23:19
Aishia Grevenberg
Doing the work is nothing. I could say nothing. And if you you think about it, I always put it in context. And I'm a professor, right? And I love that people. I only do therapy now. I'm a I'm a college professor. Do you know what I'm saying? Like a college professor. And I had the biggest disruption in my class.

00:13:23:19 - 00:13:49:06
Aishia Grevenberg
I taught a cultural competency class. I literally almost had a riot in my class. Right. This is at UNLV. All I did was write a timeline on the board. And I just talked about black people and women gaining rights. 1965 Civil Rights Voting Act, right. 1974 women are allowed to own a property in their own name, 1974 I was born in 1978, and I talked about that timeline

00:13:49:06 - 00:14:18:12
Aishia Grevenberg
and then the small number of years that women have made leaps and bounds of progress. And when you add race on to that, we're looking at 35 years, 35 years that women have had opportunity and we have knocked it out of the park. We've knocked it out of the park. We have been undefeated in business ownership, homeownership, healing, raising children, and we have done in less than 40 years what they couldn't do in 400.

00:14:18:16 - 00:14:34:01
Aishia Grevenberg
And that's why they are upset. That's why they are upset because it's like you created the system to keep us out the moment we had access, we surpassed you in every single way. How does that happen? How does that happen? How do we surpass you in every single way? And you did everything to keep us down.

00:14:34:05 - 00:14:40:09
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, everything. System built for that. I actually find that, you know, I don't know what the word is, but amazing.

00:14:40:12 - 00:14:58:17
Aishia Grevenberg
Amazing. This is a system they created for their advancement. But the moment we have an ounce of access, we just showed up and showed out. When women and when people of color are given an opportunity, we excel. We excel. This is about access and resources and they don't like it.

00:14:58:21 - 00:15:17:16
Lisa Sonni
so I watched something and I wish I could tell the story better, but I watched something about, a group in the UK and there was a system in this. Maybe it was a workplace, I don't know, that was sort of quota based, meaning it had to include a certain number of women, you know, a certain number of minorities and so on.

00:15:17:22 - 00:15:37:01
Lisa Sonni
And men were upset. Obviously. It used to be just like men get the job or men get whatever. And then it switched because people argued and they wanted it to be having more access to a more broad and inclusive group. But men got upset. So then they demanded that it go back to a merit based system. Well, you know what happened.

00:15:37:01 - 00:15:51:20
Lisa Sonni
Every leader was a woman. And then it was a interesting and we're like, well, wait a second, there needs to be some men here. That's not fair. Oh, do you mean that you need to have a minimum number of men. So you do want to make sure that there's inclusion. You just want to make sure that you're in that inclusion.

00:15:52:01 - 00:16:12:10
Lisa Sonni
And it reminds me of a bit abusive man who, like, wants fairness, but only when he feels like he's not getting his fair share. But when women or minorities are not getting their fair share, nobody cares. That's irrelevant to his wife. His girlfriend doesn't feel that their relationship is balanced. That's her problem. But as soon as it affects him, that becomes a real issue.

00:16:12:15 - 00:16:37:04
Aishia Grevenberg
Exactly. Our relationships are a microcosm of what's happening in the larger community and the larger ecosystem. And so what you see as someone feeling like equality is an aggression against them and someone feeling like access means that they are somehow denied. And so in relationships, women are saying, listen, this is me, right? I have my rights, I can communicate, I have my bodily autonomy.

00:16:37:09 - 00:16:57:13
Aishia Grevenberg
I want to communicate with you directly. I'm not being manipulative. I'm asking you a question, and then we'll be like, well, what do you mean? Why are you doing this? Why? And this? This diffusion? Because the refusal to accept responsibility. Let's have a conversation and let's be plain. But they cannot do that because where they want to deal in emotions and we want to deal with facts.

00:16:57:18 - 00:17:22:22
Aishia Grevenberg
And this goes to the larger society as well when we talk about facts is womp womp womp womp. But the way someone feels is what gets people really riled up. And in our relationships, trying to hold men accountable for their behavior is the same thing as being a high earning woman in the workplace, and dealing with the male boss is doing whatever he can to prevent you from being promoted and from you ascending.

00:17:22:22 - 00:17:30:05
Aishia Grevenberg
This is all the same thing, but it's about scale. This is an individual scale, and that's on a macro scale. That makes sense.

00:17:30:08 - 00:17:49:09
Lisa Sonni
you look at this power imbalance in relationships and you can see it. I think a good example is what you just said of, you know, she thinks there's a problem. She brings it up and he deflects and minimizes or gaslights whatever. Why is he doing that? To maintain his status, his self-described status as above. Yeah, you got to decide if

00:17:49:09 - 00:18:05:21
Lisa Sonni
we're having this conversation. Some men I know, we'll just shut the conversation down. I'm not talking about this, but other men will shut the conversation down in a in a more. I don't know, covert way. And exactly, you know, I don't want to give them too much credit. I fundamentally think they know what they're doing. They're just derailing the conversation.

00:18:05:21 - 00:18:27:20
Lisa Sonni
But I don't think that they're sitting there going, how can I derail this conversation? It's just intuitive to them that you don't have a voice that speaks to their their viewpoint, which speaks to you can't change this world view. In individual therapy, men need to start calling themselves out more. I couldn't even imagine a man saying to another man, you don't pay your child support.

00:18:28:02 - 00:18:40:16
Lisa Sonni
I can't be friends with you. You cheat on your wife. I can't be with you. I'm not saying no men do that. I'm saying not enough men do that. It's. I'm right. 100% guaranteed. It is the vast minority of men that would ever say that.

00:18:40:20 - 00:19:00:01
Aishia Grevenberg
Exactly. And what? What women do that keep this dynamic going when you are trying to talk to a man and they're doing everything to deflect, is we start defending ourselves. And once you get into a situation where you're defending yourself and trying to prove your point, then you've created an imbalance and that is what they want. That's what they want.

00:19:00:07 - 00:19:19:18
Aishia Grevenberg
And so if you're like, and you know, women do this, oh, we go on to dissertation mode. Well I have the text message, I have the receipts. We have exhibit A, exhibit B, C and D. None of that matters because that's not the issue. The issue is to keep you emotional and to keep you defending yourself. Because now we're talking about why are you so upset?

00:19:19:18 - 00:19:38:13
Aishia Grevenberg
Why are you bringing up the past? We're talking about you and we're not talking about him. And so instead of getting into defense mode when I work with women, I challenge them, hey, take a step back, start asking questions. Just start asking questions. Just start being very curious. And this this is a life lesson for anyone dealing with anything.

00:19:38:19 - 00:19:57:15
Aishia Grevenberg
If you're really stressed when you realize your back is against the wall, don't do anything. So start observing and asking questions. When you feel that you know that need to defend. Ask questions. You know Why is it that I just asked you a question and you didn't respond to it? Instead of trying to prove your point, get him to say the thing.

00:19:57:20 - 00:20:22:04
Aishia Grevenberg
Say it to me. You know what happened there? Why was that a challenge for you? Is this not a good time for you to talk? Are you feeling a little overwhelmed from work? Are you only able to communicate after you've had some transition time off? So that's fine. But that even keel, that curiosity and that seeking clarity is going to save you every time emotions are going to get you worked up, choked up, and now you're upset and you're all over the place.

00:20:22:04 - 00:20:28:23
Aishia Grevenberg
That's the goal. As long as your emotional, your controllable. Oh yeah, as long as you are emotional, you're controllable.

00:20:29:03 - 00:20:53:10
Lisa Sonni
You're so right that that like. And I've been there I used to call myself this is just a phrase that I used. It was clinically accurate. Probably not. But like psychotically enraged, no one on this earth has driven me to the level of rage that my abuser drove me to. Uncharacteristically furious. And it came out that way. I would be spitting fire practically, but I fed into it.

00:20:53:13 - 00:21:11:20
Lisa Sonni
I fed into every single time. He was relentless. Like some I say to the women all the time, sometimes they'll stonewall you because that is brutal. Stonewalling didn't affect me because I actually was like, oh, peace. I loved the silence, actually. I was like, Thank God. But when he would come at me relentlessly, it worked me up, made me emotional.

00:21:11:20 - 00:21:26:02
Lisa Sonni
He would accuse me of things or just even sort of question like he wouldn't give me an accusation like you were out last night doing something sneaky. He would just say, well, I don't know what you were doing last night. You might have been in. It would be like, what are you talking about? And then I would get defensive.

00:21:26:08 - 00:21:46:17
Lisa Sonni
So he's cycling in, and then we're not talking about the issue. We're talking about feelings. And you know, God only knows because we're just in a in a screaming match that's being worked up. Now you're not focused. That energy is what they want. And I have so learned that obviously the hard way. But I teach that like this is why we're going to bring it down.

00:21:46:17 - 00:21:54:10
Lisa Sonni
I talk a lot about the abusers using calm as a weapon. I'm not saying women should use it as a weapon, but use the calm, be

00:21:54:10 - 00:21:54:18
Aishia Grevenberg
constantly.

00:21:54:23 - 00:22:05:01
Lisa Sonni
And I mean, that's no easy task. I realize we're emotionally invested. What do you think makes survivors so defensive in the moment? Why do they feel the need?

00:22:05:05 - 00:22:25:07
Aishia Grevenberg
I think a lot of it is just is pure insanity that these men pretend that the very basic things that they're doing to hurt you, that they don't understand that they're doing them and that they can't relate to you being so hurt like this, for me, it would just drive me crazy. Like, you learn this in elementary school. You learn this in kindergarten.

00:22:25:07 - 00:22:57:05
Aishia Grevenberg
You don't put your hands on people. You don't push people. You don't call the woman you love names. Why do I have to explain this to you? And that's what's so infuriating, because you're like the. I saw you on Tuesday. Be loving and kind. And now it's Thursday. Where did that guy go? So it's so destabilizing. And you're trying to get it back and you're like, okay, if I just communicate, if I just, you know, let me lose the attitude, you know, let me just do my therapy voice and talk that he will understand because surely he this is common sense, this is human decency.

00:22:57:09 - 00:23:18:15
Aishia Grevenberg
But if I'm trying to explain being a human being to you, I'm wasting my time. But these men know that if they do, they know you. They know your buttons. They know who silence works with, and they know who these little emotional bombs work with. You know, and I say this all the time. My father passed when I was younger, when I was six, my father died

00:23:18:18 - 00:23:34:15
Aishia Grevenberg
and what my ex would say to me was, well, you never had a dad, so you don't know the way men are supposed to act in the home. You never had a father. And that was such a vulnerability for me. Like, oh, you know, I didn't grow up with my dad, I didn't, so I don't know how men act.

00:23:34:19 - 00:23:54:07
Aishia Grevenberg
And that little kernel of truth can be weaponized against you. And now I'm thinking that is this how this is this how men are in the house? Is it how they are? And being able to say, you know what, that's my reality, and that's nothing to be ashamed of. My father died. He was in the military. He supported my family in death

00:23:54:10 - 00:24:09:11
Aishia Grevenberg
These men have kids now, today and taking care of you. You understand what I'm saying? So, yeah, I'm proud of the man. That he was a man. And he took care of me. He took care of my whole family. My whole family, living and dead. So you kiss everything. You understand what I'm saying? Like this. Saying what it is.

00:24:09:11 - 00:24:24:06
Aishia Grevenberg
You're not going to make me feel inadequate because my father passed. But instead of jumping into that, why would you bring that up? Why would you say that? Are you trying to make me feel inadequate? Because I had a family member pass. Why would you say that to me. For

00:24:24:06 - 00:24:41:11
Lisa Sonni
honestly that question. Are you trying to make me feel inadequate? I can I can hear his voice. He would say, if you feel inadequate, that's you. Obviously that's something you need to work on. That's your mom. You fit you. I'm not telling you that you're inadequate. That's what came up for you. That's up to you. And it can make me angry.

00:24:41:11 - 00:24:46:06
Lisa Sonni
It would still work. Me. Of course, at the end of the day, my mom is leaving. That's my point. Yeah,

00:24:46:06 - 00:25:08:00
Aishia Grevenberg
and will know. And they know. they pull those strings. But once you don't give them a reaction because, listen, they start with the love bomb because they get the reaction. So they start with the rose and then they come with the stick. And so then if I give you roses and you're gushing, that doesn't last long. Like the energy, they need the energy. And so when you're upset, when you're yelling, that's energy.

00:25:08:00 - 00:25:27:12
Aishia Grevenberg
They love it. Women have to understand you're sending 13 text messages. They love it. They're laughing. They're sharing it with their friends. They're not reading anything. They love you being upset. This is a turn on for them because they know that they got you. They can control you. They can say something to you. You were having a good day.

00:25:27:12 - 00:25:33:05
Aishia Grevenberg
Now you're a different person. That is power. That is power. And you want to see it as power.

00:25:33:08 - 00:25:42:06
Lisa Sonni
That's sadistic. Do you feel that would lean into that definition that, you know, enjoying someone else being upset and worked up? That's a that's cruel.

00:25:42:10 - 00:26:02:06
Aishia Grevenberg
It is cruelty. But power isn't concerned with how it begets power, right? Power is only concerned with power. And so if I can be nice to you and get a reaction, I'll take that. But that reaction is no longer satisfying for me. So I need another reaction. And I'm going to get that by getting you upset and getting you emotional and working you up.

00:26:02:10 - 00:26:22:04
Aishia Grevenberg
And this is the way that these dynamics work. And so there are deeper sociological components to that. Right. But until you can get to that top layer of I'm entitled to her time and her energy, I'm entitled to that. Until you can undo that, you can't get to what else is going on here. That's not the other way around.

00:26:22:07 - 00:26:42:08
Lisa Sonni
I feel like, you know, these relationships get so crazy because we are defending ourselves and we get sucked in because abusive men, and I mean, I wish that everybody could understand this about abusive men. I always say if there was one thing I wish, like people, broadly speaking, could just know is that abusive men are the nicest men you'll ever meet until they aren't.

00:26:42:08 - 00:27:02:16
Lisa Sonni
But they start so nice and they don't just, you know, people hear that and they think, okay, well then when he turns bad, then no, he never turns bad. What happens is he oscillates between kindness and cruelty. So you are destabilized because you said, but you never know, like which way is up? And he promised in things most abusive men promise that they'll change.

00:27:02:16 - 00:27:29:18
Lisa Sonni
Not all, but many make this promise. The other category, I would say, are the ones that just blame you relentlessly and say that you're making it up and it's all your fault. Some oscillate between those two as well, but for the men that are promising change and acting like they don't understand, that keeps us emotional. How can we tell the difference between a man who, like, literally doesn't get it and and would be willing to versus this guy that just absolutely knows and pretends he doesn't?

00:27:29:22 - 00:27:49:12
Aishia Grevenberg
This is what I see, and this is why I wanted to go to do the couples counseling, because what I see in my practice, and what I've been seeing for the past ten years, is a man will do something like cheating or will do something like punching holes in the wall. I'm in Las Vegas gambling all the money away and say I'm going to go get help, right?

00:27:49:17 - 00:28:04:20
Aishia Grevenberg
You found out they don't they don't come clean and tell you you got to find out, right? If the woman finds out, the man says, I'm going to go to therapy. You can't leave me while I'm trying to get help. All he's doing is buying time, right? All he's doing is buying time. And so he'll say, I'm going to go get help.

00:28:04:22 - 00:28:20:18
Aishia Grevenberg
You have to wait. I'm going to find a therapist. So then they go, he finds that there. I don't like that therapist. I'm going to find another therapist. Right? He finds a therapist that tells him the truth. Like, this is your issue, and this is going to take time to address. This is not a four session, three session thing.

00:28:20:18 - 00:28:38:06
Aishia Grevenberg
This is going to take time. He doesn't want to hear that. So he goes and find another therapist right. And the whole time he's still doing what he said he's getting help for. And whenever he does it oh I'm working on it. You can't leave me because I'm working on it. All of this is manipulative. All of it is manipulative.

00:28:38:09 - 00:28:57:10
Aishia Grevenberg
The reality of it is, is that anyone who is sorry about their behavior wants you to find peace, and they accept that this is my problem, that I have to work on. You take care of yourself and be well. But if you stay with me, I can't guarantee that this won't happen again. All I can guarantee is that I'm trying.

00:28:57:12 - 00:29:09:07
Aishia Grevenberg
That's it. That's your choice. I want you to be happy. If you want to leave, find. But I have to work on me for me not to keep you, but for me, that's the difference. And that's not what these men are saying.

00:29:09:07 - 00:29:30:00
Lisa Sonni
No, they do this absolutely coerce you into staying. You know, I hear often that if, let's say, even if you've broken up or are talking about breaking up and he's doing therapy is some last ditch effort to try to hold onto you the idea that you have to let him back in or stay so that he can prove to you that he's changing.

00:29:30:03 - 00:29:48:14
Lisa Sonni
I always want to bring up to people the real catch 22 here is that you've asked, let's say, to break up or you've asked to stop being treated this way. And what he's saying to you is no, no, you need to let me prove to you that I've changed, knowing I'm going to make mistakes. I'm quoting that, but make mistakes and sort of trip up

00:29:48:18 - 00:30:07:06
Lisa Sonni
and you may still be experiencing this version of me while I'm trying, but I don't care what you want because I want to keep you. I want to stay. I want to have you. What I'm hearing is he hasn't changed because he's hearing you say, I want to break up. And he's like, no, what I want is so he's already showing you that he hasn't changed.

00:30:07:06 - 00:30:26:21
Lisa Sonni
So if he tells you that you need to stay or you need to come back to prove now he's proving in his question in which I'm using the term question loosely because it's more like a demand. But the proof is right there. He's not changing now, even if he went with good intentions into therapy, like you said, he would let you leave if that's what.

00:30:27:02 - 00:30:45:21
Lisa Sonni
And I shouldn't say let. But he should let you leave. Peace. Yes. If that's success, that's for you. If that's what you have determined is best for you. He's mad because it's not best for him. And I think that's his biggest problem is that he's losing something. Often this change seems to be inspired at the end of the relationship.

00:30:45:21 - 00:31:03:04
Lisa Sonni
And when women have said that it's over and, you know, it's feeding a little bit into, like when a woman's fed up, right, that there's no yeah, that he wants to keep you and women often describe to me like, maybe he's having an epiphany. You don't know what you got till it's gone. Now he sees that I was actually willing to leave.

00:31:03:07 - 00:31:21:05
Lisa Sonni
Why did it take you leaving? Why did it take your breaking point? But the answer is because it cost him something. Now. Now he doesn't get to have you control you. You know, gain access to. You have all the benefits of being with you. He is affected. And now suddenly he's crying change. But that's not authentic.

00:31:21:10 - 00:31:43:12
Aishia Grevenberg
It's not authentic at all. And the reason why it's not authentic is because he was not upset about his behavior. His behavior doesn't bother him. It bothers you. And so he doesn't want to lose you. So he can be manipulative as long as it takes to get you to believe that there's some change that has happened. Because unless a person is uncomfortable with what they're doing for them, they're never going to change, ever.

00:31:43:13 - 00:31:59:08
Aishia Grevenberg
They're never going to change. And the reality of it is, is that if he changes because of you, he's going to go back to that behavior because of you. And so he's saying, If I'm going to stop gambling because I want to keep you, the moment you get him upset, he's going to start gambling because nothing has changed.

00:31:59:11 - 00:32:21:22
Aishia Grevenberg
This is all manipulation. Human behavior is very, very complicated. And the behavior that you are concerned about in your relationship with him, his last three girlfriends were too concerned about two. The last five women in his life had the same complaints. You think you're the first woman that is upset with him because of the way he talks to you? You know this is the way he talks to women.

00:32:21:22 - 00:32:28:12
Aishia Grevenberg
You're not special. He's been doing this for decades. He's not going to change. He's not going to change.

00:32:28:12 - 00:32:50:13
Lisa Sonni
I think people don't change unless they really want to. And even then, you know, I mean, like, we're not talking about narcissists. They can't. Right. Regardless. But I mean, even your average man, average person is not going to change unless they really try and they make a massive investment. And I think even if therapy doesn't work for this type of man, but therapy in general, like what do you need like a decade of therapy weekly or biweekly, you

00:32:50:13 - 00:33:11:05
Lisa Sonni
know, the time investment and the financial investment that that actually takes. And then how much do you really change unless you start to see women differently? This is it goes back to the worldview and the belief system. Yeah. And that you can unpack entitlement and, and the entire system of the patriarchy in five therapy sessions. It's crazy.

00:33:11:08 - 00:33:34:12
Aishia Grevenberg
What was a big turning point for me is I thought about the nicest man that I've ever met in my life, the nicest man, the most kind man. And his name is cosmos and gentle loving. And I thought to myself, what would it take to turn this? And I've known him since I was 14 years old. So over 30 years I've known this man and he's been consistent.

00:33:34:14 - 00:33:56:03
Aishia Grevenberg
What would it take to turn him into a violent, abusive man? What would have to happen in his life to make him become violent and abusive toward women? He's this big dude. His mom is this little white lady, little hippie white lady, and he is the the most gentle human you can imagine, right? Soft, solid Earth. Right?

00:33:56:07 - 00:34:16:01
Aishia Grevenberg
What would it take to take that man and make him into the type of men that you and I have dated where he's screaming and yelling and accusing you of things? What? What shift, what have to have happen in his life for him to become that person? Because essentially what women are saying is you want a man that's abusive to make a shift and become that man.

00:34:16:05 - 00:34:30:21
Aishia Grevenberg
Let's look at it from the other way. What what what happened to this man? I've known him. That can make him that man. What you think? Therapy. What do you think? What happened to? To mentally get him to the point to start being abusive?

00:34:31:01 - 00:34:33:20
Lisa Sonni
an abusive man would say disrespect.

00:34:33:20 - 00:34:35:21
Aishia Grevenberg
Never. Never.

00:34:35:21 - 00:34:37:20
Lisa Sonni
What is that? Even never. Man? What does

00:34:37:20 - 00:35:00:10
Aishia Grevenberg
that. Mean? Yeah, because they believe that inside every man is this abusive man that's waiting to come out under the right conditions of disrespect by women, when in fact that's not true. That's not true. But what we are led to believe is inside of every abusive man is this gentle man waiting to come out, and the right woman can access that gentle man and get that gentle man to come out.

00:35:00:10 - 00:35:07:23
Aishia Grevenberg
That's nonsense. That's nonsense. So what? What will it take? What will it take to take that man and make him an abuser?

00:35:08:01 - 00:35:31:01
Lisa Sonni
My bet is nothing. Because it's his nature. Nothing. You know. Exactly. He's socialized, you know. Exactly. I shockingly, in a is exactly turned out this way. I want to credit his mom and credit you know his upbringing for sure and his own willingness to document these things and yes, good man. That's incredible. Yes. I love hearing that. Absolutely. You know, I'm a I'm a person who's constantly called him a centrist and a man hater.

00:35:31:04 - 00:35:49:06
Lisa Sonni
And I sit here and I think I have a wonderful father. I have a wonderful brother. My brother is like the most calm, rational, loving, good man. He's my older brother. I've seen him my whole life. I've seen this. So, like, I know there are good men. I have a son. I'm raising him to be a wonderful man.

00:35:49:06 - 00:36:07:10
Lisa Sonni
I am engaged to a great man. I do not hate men, I hate abusive men. And when I talk about exactly what they do and how they behave and men hear that I hate men, what I hear is you think all men behave this way. You think all men can be provoked by women? I get a little sarcastic on especially.

00:36:07:10 - 00:36:19:10
Lisa Sonni
I'm like, wow, you really hate men? Like I say that too. Yeah. You really think so little of men who think that men have no self-control and men are capable of regulating their emotions? Wow. I think way more highly of men than you do.

00:36:19:14 - 00:36:36:15
Aishia Grevenberg
Exactly. Because we've seen men. I have. I've worked with men. I've worked in prisons. Do you understand what I'm saying? I've worked in prisons with CEOs. I've worked in prisons with men who are there for doing heinous things. And they would say to me, I would never let anything happen to you. I said, you don't have to worry.

00:36:36:15 - 00:36:53:18
Aishia Grevenberg
You are safe. And I would have to have men standing around me, you know, protecting me when I'm doing my assessments. Big men in uniform, safe, I got you. You don't have nothing to worry about. I've been around men who are loving and caring my whole life. That's why I do not accept this nonsense. That men cannot be

00:36:53:18 - 00:37:13:09
Aishia Grevenberg
that. Because I see it with my own eyes. I have the lived experience of men who would never raise their voice to a woman ever, ever. I've dated men that never yelled at me. Not never ever. And so this is real. There are men that are capable of doing it. These men don't want to accept that these other men exist.

00:37:13:09 - 00:37:31:10
Aishia Grevenberg
They are masculine. They are big football players. They are. They make money, but they value and respect women. And so what is it going to take you? We have to ask, you want this man to become something totally different than what he is? And you think that's going to happen overnight? You honestly think that's going to happen overnight?

00:37:31:14 - 00:37:36:02
Aishia Grevenberg
No. Not a chance. No, that's not going to happen.

00:37:36:04 - 00:37:58:16
Lisa Sonni
It's not. I feel like as women who are in some of these really abusive relationships, I don't want to call them toxic abusive relationships with men that are claiming to not understand and claiming that you didn't say it right and you didn't say it the right time and use the wrong words, or, you know, the semantics that we get into, like, I didn't call you a B, I said you were acting like a B and all these things

00:37:58:17 - 00:38:19:20
Lisa Sonni
like we need to shift from, I need him to get it to, I need to get myself out. That's it. I need to give up on this man and figure out how to give up on that man. When you accept that he has, he has heard you. It is like taking off handcuffs in my hand. You know, in my view it feels like walking out of a cage.

00:38:20:00 - 00:38:38:00
Lisa Sonni
You actually can just say to yourself, he knows I have a really basic way. It's so simple and so basic, and it's I'm almost being sarcastic, but I'm not. And I would love you to even tell me I'm wrong if I am. When women say I don't think he understands, I don't think he gets it. If you did to him what he's doing to you, is he cool with that?

00:38:38:00 - 00:38:54:22
Lisa Sonni
The answer is always no, right? Oh my God. Right. Like freak out. Cool. So he understands that behavior is bad. Cool. So he only doesn't see it as bad when it's happening to you. What does that say about how he sees you or women. But. Probably both. But it it's so simple he doesn't understand that he's hurting me.

00:38:54:22 - 00:39:13:06
Lisa Sonni
Did you say you're hurting me. Yeah I tell him all the time and he still does it. So he knows like I don't feel we need to make it harder than that. I know there's context and nuance. I get it, and I'm sure we could, you know, record 25 more minutes of talking about just right. But, like, that oversimplification still makes sense to me.

00:39:13:10 - 00:39:14:09
Lisa Sonni
It's not simple.

00:39:14:11 - 00:39:32:11
Aishia Grevenberg
It is. And this what I typically say is you don't respect him, I challenge I mean, you don't respect him because if you respected him, then you would respect him as an adult and as an adult. You said something to him. You're both speak the same language, right? Okay. We all speak in English. And you spoke English, and you said something to him and he.

00:39:32:11 - 00:39:49:03
Aishia Grevenberg
Didn't he act like he didn't understand what you were saying. And so you trying to dumb it down for him. Why would you do that to him? That's disrespectful and that's invalidating. Respect him. He said that he heard you and now he's minimizing you. What are you going to do? Don't tell me what you want him to understand.

00:39:49:04 - 00:40:09:11
Aishia Grevenberg
Tell me what you're going to do about the disrespect and harm that you are experiencing. Give him what he wants. He's telling you. You know what? You're doing this. I heard you, okay. Respect yourself and respect him. He's committed to misunderstanding you. If you're talking to another adult and he's unable to communicate with you, then you need to be talking to a different adult.

00:40:09:16 - 00:40:10:01
Aishia Grevenberg
Period.

00:40:10:04 - 00:40:37:06
Lisa Sonni
I said what I said, you know what I mean? That's like I said the words. He and I are speaking the same language. He my. Words. This is a deeper issue. And I'm not his rehab center. I actually I have loved that women are not rehab for men. Heard that a few years ago. I've loved it ever since because yes aren't expected to be. And we are expected to regulate men with our bodies and with our arguments and with our energy by doing and providing service to them.

00:40:37:10 - 00:40:39:23
Lisa Sonni
And but that's that's disrespectful. That's

00:40:39:23 - 00:40:58:06
Aishia Grevenberg
disrespectful. And this is another thing that bothers me about people being like, oh, you hate men, do I hate men, or do I treat men as adults? Do I hold men accountable for their behavior as thinking adults? Now, you figured out how to play basketball, right? You have no court. The court was all tore up, jacked up. You figured out how to play basketball.

00:40:58:09 - 00:41:16:01
Aishia Grevenberg
You can figure out how to communicate without raising your voice, because you don't talk to your boss that way. You don't talk to your friends that way, but you feel entitled to come home and do it. So I'm going to hold you to a level of responsibility based on your age and your capacity. So if you're not at age level, then you're not someone I should be interacting with.

00:41:16:07 - 00:41:34:09
Aishia Grevenberg
If you don't have the communication skills of an adult, then I need to be talking to another adult. So I'm going to challenge you to be the adult that you say you are. I'm going to give you the respect that you ask for. I'm a respectfully leave you the hell alone because you're not meeting my needs. And there is someone who,

00:41:34:09 - 00:41:52:12
Aishia Grevenberg
well, this is very simple. Exactly like you're saying it. This is very simple. This is not complicated. Respect these men as adults. And then an adult is telling you that they speak the same language you do. But for whatever reason, they don't understand what you're saying. Go talk to a man who does so.

00:41:52:18 - 00:42:09:20
Lisa Sonni
And they exist. That's like lady, they exist and exist. Now, I do want to note that we're not saying like, go leave. Like that's the easiest thing in the world, but it is about what are you going to do to get yourself to be able to leave, you know, over to something, a trauma bond, figuring out your finances.

00:42:10:00 - 00:42:28:13
Lisa Sonni
I'm not making it sound easy, I realize. But this yeah, we do need to make the choice and then figure out how to take the actions, whether that's a long term plan or whatever it is that we need. But unlearning the habit of over explaining and trying to get him to understand something that he already understands is is the key here.

00:42:28:13 - 00:42:49:21
Lisa Sonni
Like we have to be able to accept that he does know, and I'm telling you the most freeing thing is he already knows. Self-respect is the action of showing yourself that you know that you are worth more than this. So it's like hard women to work on that. You know, he heard you, he understands you, and he chose to hurt you.

00:42:49:23 - 00:42:53:03
Lisa Sonni
There's nothing confusing about that. It is an active. No.

00:42:53:03 - 00:43:20:17
Aishia Grevenberg
No, he's he's making a choice. He's doing exactly what he wants to do. He knows what he's doing is hurting you. He's looking directly at you as you cry. He sees the fear on your face. He sees your body language. He doesn't care. He doesn't care any of us. What? Stop. If you notice someone, if you're joking and you can see someone's face changed, like, oh, that one that went too far like that touched a nerve.

00:43:20:17 - 00:43:43:09
Aishia Grevenberg
Ouch. You were. Stop laughing. I don't want to hurt anyone. He sees you crying and he's still yelling at you. He's still yelling. You're crying. You're basically begging him to stop and he won't stop. He doesn't care. He doesn't care. You have to care. Your task is to learn how to center yourself again, how to care enough about yourself to create safety for yourself.

00:43:43:09 - 00:44:02:08
Aishia Grevenberg
And that takes time. But you have to have a response to someone harming you and the response is not, let's talk more about that. That's not the response. The response is not, let's go to therapy and talk about it. That's not the response. The response is, how do I keep myself safe in the face of someone who has shown me they don't care about my safety?

00:44:02:13 - 00:44:03:16
Aishia Grevenberg
What does that look like?

00:44:03:20 - 00:44:22:20
Lisa Sonni
I love that amazing advice and amazing conversation. Thank you so much for being here today. I'm going to tag all of your social so that people can find you and watch more of your content. So I'm telling you, you drop some insane truth bombs constantly every time I it up, like, oh, get ready! So excited to be able to share you with more people.

00:44:22:22 - 00:44:27:12
Lisa Sonni
So thank you so much for being here. And reminding us all that he knows and he won't change.

00:44:27:16 - 00:44:30:12
Aishia Grevenberg
Exactly. Thank you so much for having me.

00:44:30:14 - 00:44:40:00
Lisa Sonni
If this episode gave you clarity, share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember, you're stronger than before.

00:44:40:01 - 00:44:44:06
Music
Stronger than before.