The Truth Behind the “Perfect Marriage” with Sarah White | S3E3

From the outside, it looks like a happy marriage: smiling photos, family dinners, and church events. Inside the house, it is a completely different story.

Lisa is joined by survivor turned coach Sarah White for an honest conversation about the quiet, hidden abuse that lives behind the image of the “good relationship.” Together, they unpack why so many women stay silent, protect the man hurting them, and convince themselves that what is happening is not really abuse. Sarah shares how emotional abuse, sexual coercion, gaslighting, and chronic confusion slowly eroded her health, her self trust, and her sense of safety. They talk about the pressure to perform happiness, especially inside religious communities, and the fear of being judged for leaving a marriage that looks perfect from the outside.

This episode explores the toll emotional abuse takes on the body, why confusion is a warning sign, and how kindness and cruelty can exist in the same relationship. Lisa names the moment many survivors resist but eventually face: He knows he is hurting you, and waiting for him to understand only keeps you trapped.

If you have ever cried alone after family gatherings, questioned your reality, or wondered why your body feels constantly on edge, this conversation will help you see the truth without shame.

You are not betraying anyone by choosing yourself, you are finally telling the truth.

Reach Sarah White

Instagram: @echosofherbravery or @sarahjeanettteeeWeb: www.echosofherbravery.com

Email: coachsarahwhite@gmail.com

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:08:17
Music
Anything like that. And then at the. Oh, no.

00:00:08:19 - 00:00:39:03
Lisa Sonni
This is real talk with Lisa Sunny Relationships Uncensored, the podcast. They don't want you listening to. From the outside. So many people just look like the happy couple. And in my case, I was definitely performing that role of part of this happy couple. You know, people will say things like, you're so lucky and, you know, you post photos and smile at dinner parties with your friends, and people truly have no idea what the hell is going on behind closed doors.

00:00:39:04 - 00:00:59:08
Lisa Sonni
And I want to talk today about how we get through that, why we do that. You know what we're doing that for. And I want to introduce my guest. Does this a bit different for me. And I am so happy to have you on the show. So this is Sarah White and she is a past client, but a survivor turned coach.

00:00:59:08 - 00:01:05:06
Lisa Sonni
And I want to talk about your experience. Certainly. But I would love for you to just take a minute and introduce yourself.

00:01:05:11 - 00:01:31:06
Sarah White
So my name is Sarah. I am a mom of three older kids. They're my joy and my whole, entire heart. And I recently threw a lot of coaching and clarity and just, a journey had discovered that my relationship was emotionally abusive, and, it took me a long time to, get out of the denial piece. Because that was just. I didn't want to let go of that dream, but, I feel so much healthier now that I'm out.

00:01:31:09 - 00:01:49:22
Sarah White
Lisa's program helped me immensely. I got a lot of different people to try to help me on this journey find clarity. And so, yeah, I have turned into a coach as well. I went through a program this last year where I had learned to turn my grief into purpose, and so that's what I want to do. I mean, I feel like it's lived experience,

00:01:49:22 - 00:01:54:10
Sarah White
it's real, it's raw. And, I can really help women on this journey. So Yeah,

00:01:54:10 - 00:02:12:22
Lisa Sonni
I'm so glad. And I know that you can. I think that there's something to be said for survivors that have turned into coaches, therapists who have lived experience. And this is just it hits different when you're talking to someone who's been through this before. It really does. 100%. I know every marriage has problems. Every relationship has problems, right?

00:02:12:22 - 00:02:31:22
Lisa Sonni
This isn't about perfection, but I want to kind of get into exposing what goes on behind this idea of a perfect marriage. You know, why do we stay quiet? Why do we protect the man that's hurting us? and how do we even figure out that something's wrong? I relate to this idea of like, oh, I'm being emotionally abused, and I. You don't know it yet.

00:02:32:01 - 00:02:53:01
Lisa Sonni
Next Monday, you something happens where it's like, And for a lot of people, it was watching TikTok, watching Instagram, you know, watching YouTube videos and figuring out like, hey, this person is speaking to my situation. It's abuse. This is abuse. Oh my God. But we're the happy couple. At one point, you know, there's a social pressure to look happy.

00:02:53:03 - 00:02:59:18
Lisa Sonni
Tell me a little bit about your life. What pressures did you feel kind of externally to perform this happiness?

00:02:59:22 - 00:03:18:15
Sarah White
I think for me, a lot of it was actually not even performative. I wanted it to be a healthy relationship. You know, I was in denial that it wasn't. And I tried so hard to make it be that, you know, and kind of ignore the pain I was in and ignore my body signals, ignore my gut, ignore my intuition.

00:03:18:17 - 00:03:49:01
Sarah White
All of those things that, for a long time were screaming at me. And I think a big part of it is, you know, I was a mom, and I didn't want that stigma of being like the divorced family for so long. There's a lot of pressure within the religious circles to maintain this, you know, outside of parents. And for me, that was a big part of my story, actually, we were heavily involved in church and missions and so having that mixed in with the confusing behavior was almost too much for me to bear

00:03:49:01 - 00:04:10:17
Sarah White
sometimes. Because from the outside looking in, we were this and I knew the truth of what was really happening. And so it was really just a protection of, a larger system, really, not just one person kind of protecting lots of people and protecting myself from the incredible, grief that comes with admitting the truth. And that has also been its own thing.

00:04:10:20 - 00:04:29:09
Sarah White
I didn't realize how hard it would actually be. I will say, now that I've done it, there are some days where I'm like, this wasn't as hard as I think or as scary as I thought it would be, and I am in such a healthier place mentally and emotionally and even physically. My headaches have been cut in half. So yeah, I could say so much about that. Oh well,

00:04:29:09 - 00:04:45:22
Lisa Sonni
we know the body keep score, right? We know it's connected to so many things. The amount of people that I talk to that talk about how much better life gets after, you know, it's there's incentive to to try to leave. Nothing is easy. I know this sort of togetherness that was important. I love what you said.

00:04:45:22 - 00:05:02:01
Lisa Sonni
You know, I'm asking the question about performance and you're like, I don't know if I was actually performing it. It didn't feel like it at the time. Do you feel like you were protecting your own reputation in addition to maybe his or the family and trying to fit in, trying to here follow the rules?

00:05:02:01 - 00:05:20:05
Sarah White
Yeah, sure. I mean, there was a big, piece that was like, this is what we do and we don't we don't go above the, you know, this line is like, divorce is horrible and it's going to ruin everyone's life and protecting my kids, you know, and wanting them to have it, you know, have everything and not have to face these painful things.

00:05:20:05 - 00:05:27:09
Sarah White
So it's like I'm almost like protecting my kids emotions in a way. And, just taking it all on so they wouldn't have to feel that pain, you know?

00:05:27:13 - 00:05:48:03
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. I think it's so hard, you know, I know not everybody in an abusive relationship has kids. And for those that do, you've got kids in all kinds of different ages. And mine were 1 in 3, you know, and I don't know what to say to kids at all these different ages when when you're in it, it's so hard of they might see something or witness something, experience something directly.

00:05:48:07 - 00:06:06:14
Lisa Sonni
How do you justify that? I know there's this really like internal battle of my God, if I stay, what am I teaching them? But if I leave, what my teaching them and how do I decide? I think also touching on sometimes divorce doesn't feel like part of a possible decision, like it's a sin, right? Especially if you are religious.

00:06:06:14 - 00:06:10:12
Lisa Sonni
Do you feel like you know it prevented you from leaving at first?

00:06:10:15 - 00:06:27:05
Sarah White
Oh yeah, 100%. 100%. I mean, people quote, God hates divorce. That was completely in my head for so long. And then I was like, actually, God hates when somebody continues to hurt you repeatedly when you've told them that this is hurting me, I think God hates that more.

00:06:27:09 - 00:06:29:13
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, the abuse. Yep.

00:06:29:18 - 00:06:53:00
Sarah White
And it got to a point. My my kids are older, so it really got to a point where I had to start facing questions like, if my daughters were in a relationship like this, what would I tell them with a on a straight face? And it wasn't to stay. Or if my son was treating his wife in these ways, what I tell him he needs to knock it off or what I continue to tell him, oh, it's it's okay.

00:06:53:00 - 00:06:55:02
Sarah White
Like you're just you know. It.

00:06:55:02 - 00:06:56:03
Lisa Sonni
She must have helped

00:06:56:03 - 00:07:14:10
Sarah White
you. Yeah. Or it was a mistake. Just, you know, try to get try to be better and don't don't make that mistake again. I would tell him this is not how you were raised. So I had to start facing some really hard questions. When my kids were getting older about what I believed and what I wanted them to, live out in their lives.

00:07:14:10 - 00:07:20:09
Sarah White
In a way, I felt like I had to be an example of that. And I couldn't run from that anymore because they're getting older, you know?

00:07:20:14 - 00:07:37:04
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, I know, I think as kids get older, it's like, oh, you know, the amount of people I'm like, I do. I advocate for people to not share what's happening with their kids. In terms of the abuse, I obviously mean, if they aren't seeing it with their own eyes, right? I don't think children should know. I'm not saying live for him.

00:07:37:04 - 00:07:55:06
Lisa Sonni
Right. I'm not. That's not what I mean. But depending on the age too, it's and there's so much nuance and context. So I always like tiptoeing around those statements like landmines. Honestly. But yeah, my kids see this and experience it and again, I'm not saying that it's easy to leave, but many people stay for their kids. And the question really is like what is staying.

00:07:55:07 - 00:08:13:12
Lisa Sonni
Teach them. and now when their safety concerns I'm not saying because I know you might have to give custody to an abusive person and you're worried for them all that I get all that. But while you're there they are seeing you being so mistreated and they're all learning. I mean, genders aside, all the kids are learning that it's okay to have

00:08:13:12 - 00:08:41:10
Lisa Sonni
their behave this way or be treated this way or both. And those are not messages that we want, but we like the idea of an intact family. I think abusive men I know abusive men know that they know that the intact family is important to you, that your faith if I know you are a faith, but for people, they know that these things are so important and they use that, that sort of perfect marriage thing, it can be a really strong manipulation tool for these men.

00:08:41:10 - 00:09:04:15
Sarah White
Yeah, 100%. And It was a big manipulation tool for me. The manipulation was heavy. And for me also, the abuse was never physical. It was all emotional. It was all cycles where, there'd be, like, lying, hiding, cheating, not telling the truth. lots of gaslighting. Lots of my emotions were too much or, dismissed, you know, dismissed emotions. Dismissed concerns.

00:09:04:15 - 00:09:25:19
Sarah White
It's not that big of a deal. You're making too much out of this. So my emotions were just dismissed a lot. I feel. And I'm sure that that was something that could have been picked up on, you know, but that is also just as, damaging to somebody's nervous system and somebody's brain, as a physical abuse. And I know that's super hard for me to comprehend, too.

00:09:25:19 - 00:09:41:15
Sarah White
But once I got it, I was like, no, this makes perfect sense. My body has been screaming for years, you know, and I, I ended up with chronic illness. So I have all the things the religious face, the chronic illness, the, you know, trying to hold it together.

00:09:41:15 - 00:10:06:22
Lisa Sonni
It's so does, you know, now you said something so key because I did experience physical abuse towards the end, but I think that I didn't experience it for seven years was a huge part of why I didn't see it. Why I missed like, this is abuse. And for women who are in these relationships or have been and have never experienced physical abuse when it's and I'm majorly quoting like just emotional abuse on the other side.

00:10:06:22 - 00:10:23:12
Lisa Sonni
You are so correct. If physical abuse and emotional abuse do the same thing to your body and to your nervous system, there's no difference. So it doesn't actually matter. But when you're in it, I think what matters is police not hitting you. It's not that bad. You don't have that that is if hitting you would be worse.

00:10:23:12 - 00:10:40:12
Lisa Sonni
And I think what's interesting and I'm not here to compare trauma being physically abused or emotionally psychologically abuse is all that full stop. We're not comparing. But there is something to be said for the physical abuse that people think, oh, then I would really get it. If you would just hit me, I would know it's abuse. I'm just going to go ahead and raise my hand.

00:10:40:12 - 00:11:01:15
Lisa Sonni
No, you wouldn't because I didn't. And plenty of my clients tell me they didn't catch that it was abuse. It's like an isolated incident, but when it's emotional abuse, it is even easier to miss that it's abuse. They also oscillate. So and you kind of touched on that too. What what's your experience been with like kindness and cruelty six days

00:11:01:15 - 00:11:02:14
Lisa Sonni
a week.

00:11:02:18 - 00:11:24:20
Sarah White
Well the intermittent reinforcement is very, very confusing. So that's what creates that trauma bond. And the intermittent reinforcement can even happen within a day. So you could be dismissed or talked down upon, and then the next day or the next hour, things are fine, you know, or whatever, or you discover a big lie and there's a lot of, confusion happening.

00:11:24:20 - 00:11:46:09
Sarah White
And then the next day everything's seemingly back to normal, just kind of stuff it and move on so that was a very confusing and hard for me for so long, because there were good, good things, there were happy times. There were lots of happy times and good, good times. So it kept me on that, cycle of abuse that kept me hooked on that cycle of abuse. That oscillation,

00:11:46:09 - 00:12:24:05
Lisa Sonni
you know, I swear, people, I know we talk about it, but like, I, it's not talked about enough that that mixture, it keeps you so destabilized that one minute. This is your husband. This is the loving person that you know. Your whatever your boyfriend, it's you love this person so much and they're so good to you. And you think about, you know, whatever Sunday mornings laughing in bed and raising children and Christmases or holidays and vacations and, you know, silly moments in the kitchen and then they're screaming at you or cheating or makes your head spin. and we're so attached to the idea that they are a good person who's done something bad.

00:12:24:07 - 00:12:31:07
Lisa Sonni
You excuse it. The first time. Do you have any memory of sort of like the first couple of times that something happened and how you felt?

00:12:31:12 - 00:12:53:10
Sarah White
Yeah, at the beginning there was, just a lot of angry outbursts. no physical, but, physically, like punching a wall or, you know, getting really upset or shutting down emotionally. There was sexual coercion involved as well, too. So feeling like I wasn't enough, feeling like if I didn't, sacrifice my body or do that, then there was like a shut down or a quiet, you know, stonewalling.

00:12:53:10 - 00:13:14:07
Sarah White
So I do remember and if I had the language for it now, if I knew what I knew, then I would know instantly. This is your body telling you you're not safe, you know? But a lot of that came with these last five years where I've been doing a lot of this. But yes, I do have memories of feeling confused and, a quote that I wrote down and I have and I stuck to for so long.

00:13:14:07 - 00:13:38:23
Sarah White
As if you're confused, you're being abused. If you're confused about how the person in the relationship feels about you, you are being abused. There should be no confusion. The person that you're with should be consistent enough to either work out an issue with, you know, and a safe response, a non dismissive response, and listening with a, you know, empathy and wants to, hear your heart where you can make a change.

00:13:38:23 - 00:13:49:12
Sarah White
But if you're confused and they are giving you mixed signals, the hot and cold and the punishment and the shutting down and the dismissiveness, all those things, it's abuse. I know that's so hard to hear.

00:13:49:15 - 00:14:09:11
Lisa Sonni
I love that you said it because sometimes we need to hear the hard things. But I also just deeply agree. And I've said something so similar that the confusion itself is enough to leave because you either know that this person loves you or you wonder, you know, but sometimes you question the behavior. It's like, if he loved me, why does he?

00:14:09:14 - 00:14:33:15
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, that confusion is telling you something because you don't question that. And I'm in a healthy relationship now, and I literally never question that. He loves me and he's not perfect. We have disagreements and he's not screaming at me. And I'm not questioning his commitment to our relationship or that he loves me. And that's huge. I used to wonder and I don't care.

00:14:33:18 - 00:14:50:21
Sarah White
Who are you? Who are you talking to? Who are you seeing? What are you doing outside of the house? Where have you been? What have you been doing on your phone? Any of those things? It's like all of that pep perpetuates that. I can't get that word out. All of that perpetuates that. The confusion can happen outside of the relationship as well.

00:14:51:00 - 00:15:10:04
Sarah White
And so for me, in this last like couple of years, there had been a separation and then a getting back together and, there were people calling it a miracle. So I had people in my life calling this a miracle, and I knew this was not a miracle. I got back together because I was codependent in a trauma band.

00:15:10:08 - 00:15:15:03
Sarah White
And when I heard people start calling it a miracle, I knew there was a big problem.

00:15:15:03 - 00:15:16:13
Lisa Sonni
Like. What did they mean?

00:15:16:17 - 00:15:32:03
Sarah White
Because that they thought that maybe it would end in divorce. We've never get back together. And then we did, because I initiated, to get back together because I felt like I was going to die. It was like I die with you or a day without you. You know, there's. Oh, you know what I mean? It's just. It's just such a horrid place to be.

00:15:32:03 - 00:15:50:17
Sarah White
And then I had people start saying, this is a miracle. This is a miracle. Which made me so confused. I'm like, is this a miracle? Did I just perform an act of God? But yeah, getting back together? Or am I deeply confused and trauma bonded and I don't I don't feel safe, you know, and it was the I knew instantly I was like, this is not safe.

00:15:50:17 - 00:16:06:07
Sarah White
Like and but yeah, the confusion can come from outside as well. So I just want to throw that in there. There's lots of people who will speak into your life, and you have to really seek out someone who's going to be safe and listen to you. That is a safe person. And finding safe people Is hard.

00:16:06:08 - 00:16:23:22
Lisa Sonni
I think a lot of people don't know what is going on behind closed doors. And I think there's sort of two parts to that, like picture. I don't know, a sister, a very best friend. If you're close with your mom, maybe you're telling 1 or 2 people some things that are going on, but they appear to be isolated.

00:16:24:01 - 00:16:43:07
Lisa Sonni
And I think that people who love you truly and believe that they have your best interest at heart, it's like, hey, Sarah, maybe he's just got a problem, maybe he's avoidant, maybe he had trauma. You know, don't forget that he insert excuse here and they're saying it to you from a place of like, don't worry, it's not that bad.

00:16:43:13 - 00:17:04:12
Lisa Sonni
Instead of well that's horrible. Wow. That sounds like it hurt. I mean, I don't need people to be able to be experts and recognize like, hey, Sarah, that's abuse. Because that's also a big accusation. I recognize not everybody trained, but just wow, that seems like it really hurt. You would be better then maybe we could make an excuse for your husband because it makes you make an excuse.

00:17:04:14 - 00:17:07:05
Lisa Sonni
It actually enables abusers in a huge

00:17:07:05 - 00:17:33:12
Sarah White
way. 100%. And I felt that for a lot of years. And so then I feel like I'm also, crazy. It makes me feel crazy for like, I'm the only one that feels this way, you know, because nobody sees the full picture. There are things that I have never told anyone. And I probably won't. So if you're not experiencing it day to day until you find someone that's trauma informed, that really understands what you're going through. And they can be like, this is why you're so confused all the time.

00:17:33:15 - 00:17:55:10
Sarah White
This is why you feel like your body is just on fire constantly around this person. This is why you're you, jerk or whatever. When their touch doesn't feel safe. All of those things, you have to have somebody who knows about that and is trauma informed. And I've even been to several counselors who never told me those things, you know, like, there are healthy counselors too, and there are healthy coaches and they're not healthy coaches.

00:17:55:10 - 00:18:11:16
Sarah White
I'm just you really have to find someone. And so, a family member or someone who even close to you might not see the full picture, you know, and they're doing their best. But I think, yeah, it's very, very not helpful when there are people making excuses. It just makes you feel like you're just fighting upstream.

00:18:11:18 - 00:18:32:02
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. And again, I wish that they just wouldn't offer anything, like, just just say that sounds hard. Anything would be better. You know, for anybody listening, don't say that to people. Don't don't make excuses for someone. We go from a place in the relationship of not knowing that it's abuse, not knowing that it's bad, just knowing something maybe feels off, perhaps.

00:18:32:07 - 00:18:51:02
Lisa Sonni
And we're living in this world of excuses because, listen, abusive men, they play the victim, they blame shift, you know, they deflect and minimize. They make you feel crazy or like you're the problem or you're overreacting or they cheated because you didn't have sex with them often enough. Whatever they do to sort of flip it so you don't recognize it.

00:18:51:02 - 00:19:05:19
Lisa Sonni
But we shift, there comes a point, and we shift into the the knowing that something's wrong and or that it's abuse. And yes, sometimes can't leave yes because of trauma bonds, but also family money, religion as you've pointed

00:19:05:19 - 00:19:28:21
Sarah White
out. There's the confusion of it. You know, like I truly had to get to a place where I knew, but I still didn't fully believe and I had to start writing things down. And so I would write things down so I wouldn't forget how the interaction was or whatever. And but later, because it helped me feel less crazy because I started doubting and forgetting things like my own memory was not serving me well.

00:19:28:21 - 00:19:49:00
Lisa Sonni
So you. Yeah, we don't have we don't hold on to all the details in this. And that's kind of the point, you know, I mean, the destabilization then and the oscillation of kindness and cruelty and all of this, it it just fries your brain. You're in survival mode. Sometimes people feel like they have ADHD. And I'm talking about people who don't have it already.

00:19:49:02 - 00:19:54:18
Lisa Sonni
like, I'm not motivated. I can't remember things. I don't know what the hell I'm doing in my life. I'm so confused.

00:19:54:19 - 00:20:16:17
Sarah White
it started to get to that point. I mean, I've had chronic illness now here for ten, 12 years. And I do think now looking back, you know, hindsight's 2020, my body shut down. Really about 12 years ago. And I'm, I'm starting to feel healthy again. But that emotional abuse really. And I wanted some sort of I wanted to be able to say like, narcissist, this person is a narcissist,

00:20:16:17 - 00:20:37:01
Sarah White
but I couldn't do that, you know? And so all the things that play into it toxic relationship, emotional abuse, narcissistic abuse, they all have the same kind of patterns. Right? So that's what I really had to learn is the pattern of work. You know, the trauma bond and the love bombing. The love bombing, the devaluation, all the, you know, all of it.

00:20:37:01 - 00:20:45:15
Lisa Sonni
So. There's so much going on. At the same time, it's like your head wants to explode. But again, this all is part of why it's hard to see.

00:20:45:20 - 00:20:46:11
Sarah White


00:20:46:13 - 00:21:08:21
Lisa Sonni
It feels impossible. They're making excuses. You're making excuses and we don't even catch what's going on when we start to actually see it. I still think that there's kind of a performance of The Good Wife, the Good Woman. And I think that especially in some religious conditioning, the good Wife, she's forgiving. The good wife is compassionate, you know, she's the helpmate.

00:21:08:23 - 00:21:17:10
Lisa Sonni
How did that hurt you. And this is not an attack on religion or Christianity. Not at all. Did this hurt your ability to see it and to leave?

00:21:17:10 - 00:21:34:17
Sarah White
I think because I have such a big heart and I do have a lot of empathy and I do see the childhood wounds and I do see all of those. I think it just left me in a place where I just kept forgiving, even though it was actually physically killing me. Like not just emotionally killing me. My body started shutting down.

00:21:34:21 - 00:21:49:21
Sarah White
I like, couldn't get out of bed. So that's how it affected me is, you know, I denied it and I just wanted you know, I wanted to live those things out. I wanted to be that good, forgiving wife. And I was for so long. And then I started learning, like, this is why I've been sick for all these years.

00:21:49:21 - 00:21:51:20
Sarah White
This is why I can't get out of bed again,

00:21:51:20 - 00:22:16:12
Lisa Sonni
that performance is tough. in many ways I was sort of treated like the good girl. And I would get a lot of praise for my behavior. And I mean, things like, I'm so glad that you're not one of those women, like, gallivanting around. I love that I know where you are. I love that I can trust you. And I know those things sound like praise to someone on the surface, but with abuse happening at the same time.

00:22:16:12 - 00:22:34:01
Lisa Sonni
Knowing that now that sort of good girl praise made me want to perform more good girl behavior and being more compliant. So it was. It's still coercive control. It still sort of put me in this like, you can't leave, you can't abandon me. My mom abandoned

00:22:34:01 - 00:23:00:18
Sarah White
me. I don't know if that really played into mine too much, but, very much a lot of just a lot of empathy for childhood wounds or childhood issues and, and using that as an excuse, really played into it a lot for me. And I still have a lot of, you know, I can't not care about someone. It's like I do care about them as a person. but at some point you do have to realize you don't have to stay in the same type of relationship with that person to love them from a distance.

00:23:00:21 - 00:23:16:06
Sarah White
Even if they've hurt you a ton, you can still love them from a distance and forgive them and or not forgive them. Whatever you decide and move on with your life because, yeah, I, I just that's what I had to come to realize. It's like don't have to maintain the same level of commitment in this relationship.

00:23:16:10 - 00:23:25:09
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. So absolutely true. Now, let me ask you, when when you were experiencing this, did you know, like, you know, now that trauma doesn't cause abuse?

00:23:25:13 - 00:23:25:22
Sarah White
No.

00:23:26:00 - 00:23:46:01
Lisa Sonni
Not knowing that is huge, you know. And I didn't know that either. Now, again, I will admit I didn't connect the word abuse to what was happening to me until I was already out. But trauma was the excuse for his behavior like he was. He had a terrible childhood. His mom this, his dad that blah blah excuses. But yeah, none of that made him the way that he is. And

00:23:46:01 - 00:23:58:19
Lisa Sonni
ultimately, I oversimplify this, but I think it's hugely important to be simple. Yeah. Knows him abusive. He knows that his behavior is bad because if you did to him what he's doing to you. Yeah. He would flip his lid. Right. Imagine if you cheated.

00:23:58:22 - 00:24:14:12
Sarah White
And for me maybe the childhood trauma played into it. But it was it was framed for me a lot as a sin. I just have a problem or an addiction. I have an addiction problem, I sin problem. And so okay that's not my problem. Then you have to go fix your sin problem.

00:24:14:13 - 00:24:15:20
Lisa Sonni
What does that mean?

00:24:15:22 - 00:24:17:03
Sarah White
I don't know, like.

00:24:17:06 - 00:24:21:04
Lisa Sonni
I have a sin problem. Like he's a problem. I think he's addicted to sinning.

00:24:21:08 - 00:24:26:02
Sarah White
More like addicted to the behaviors that were considered sins, I guess so.

00:24:26:02 - 00:24:40:06
Lisa Sonni
Cheating? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it all of it is just such an excuse, and I think that it's such a perfect way to evade accountability, you know, like, oh, I just it's it's I gotta go get right with God. It's like, you know, repeating the behavior.

00:24:40:06 - 00:24:57:13
Sarah White
Yes. And the accountability piece was also never really there. And that also set my nervous system on fire completely because I, my nervous system was always seeking. Are you safe right now? I have to ask if you're safe right now and then you. Sometimes you tell me and sometimes you don't. And so I never know if you're safe for me in that moment.

00:24:57:17 - 00:25:01:14
Sarah White
And I just really put all of that together. But. Yeah, in the last, like, three years.

00:25:01:14 - 00:25:20:10
Lisa Sonni
But I make sense. I don't think we recognize safety. I didn't think about the safety. I thought safety was, you know, are you physically safe that the concept even of emotional safety was absolutely foreign to me. It felt like fluffy therapy talk. And that was so not it was made no sense. But you know, I, I get it now.

00:25:20:10 - 00:25:45:00
Lisa Sonni
And I was never safe and you were never safe, even if we felt it at one point. But then, I don't know, you get to that place where you're like, I don't feel safe, but we're still in it and we are trauma bonded. I know not everyone is or was, but when you are trauma bonded and even when you're not, we are managing the reputation, of our relationship, of our marriage, of our partnership, of our family.

00:25:45:00 - 00:26:02:21
Lisa Sonni
We want to manage that. And I, I see a lot of people struggle with kind of even realizing that we're managing our own reputation to a degree. I'm not the kind of woman that would be in an abusive relationship. I'm not one of those women. So I reject the idea that this is abuse or toxic. We just have issues

00:26:02:21 - 00:26:20:11
Lisa Sonni
and the other piece to that is managing his reputation because I think, you know, speaking for myself and I wonder if you can relate, so many people seem to, if I speak badly of him and then I don't leave. Are my friends and family going to ask me like why I stay? I felt judged, so part of that was me.

00:26:20:11 - 00:26:34:18
Lisa Sonni
But I don't want them to think that he's a bad person because we got into an argument. Well like no he didn't, there wasn't an argument because I get into a disagreement with my current partner and he's not screaming the B-word at me, but my ex would and that was normal to me. Why.

00:26:34:22 - 00:26:58:05
Sarah White
Yeah I don't know. And but for me a big part of it was also feeling like it was my fault. And so I did so many groups and, but you know, different church type of groups for women that really weren't helpful because that person was making a choice to continue to harm over and over. And so there was literally nothing you could do, nothing you could learn, nothing you could achieve to be different for them, for them to stop doing this.

00:26:58:05 - 00:27:15:21
Sarah White
But that's what I did for years is took that on, took the burden of trying to fix myself, trying to, you know, get right with However, I communicated or these things that could have, you know, healing and moving on and forgiving and all those things. But ultimately, none of those things helped, and it was never my burden to carry.

00:27:15:23 - 00:27:16:22
Sarah White
So, yeah,

00:27:16:22 - 00:27:39:02
Lisa Sonni
shocker, you can't change someone else through your own work. You know, I think in the end, we change ourselves and change our tolerance for this and we start to gain information. Yeah, but that which can be very freeing. But I think when you're in it, there's danger in going to therapy and there's danger in going to church groups because they don't have the full context.

00:27:39:02 - 00:27:57:14
Lisa Sonni
You don't even have the full context. It's why I actually feel like passionately strong, oh, so strong that in the therapeutic communities, there needs to be so much more training on what abuse looks like. there is very little. And it's funny because I've said that many times, and every so often I get a therapist being like, that's not true.

00:27:57:15 - 00:28:21:02
Lisa Sonni
We are so trained when I have doesn't meet personally one human being. I can honestly count 30 psychologists and therapists that I have talked to that are like, absolutely, we are not trained in this at all. And so maybe some programs cover it, but most don't. You kind of do need to specialize in it and religion and, you know, religious counseling as well as non faith based counseling.

00:28:21:02 - 00:28:48:18
Lisa Sonni
it's on the premise that everybody's here, especially couples. Couples work. Because what I really mean, it's on the premise that we're all here to be collaborative and that we're both willing to make changes to make this relationship work. We'll never know that you're actually dealing with somebody who is narcissistic or abusive, and that it's a worldview. If we're going to base this on the premise that they can all just change, that they're all fundamentally good people who do bad things. You're not ever really going to be able to see it and get out.

00:28:48:18 - 00:29:13:09
Sarah White
And another thing for me is, even within Christian counseling and stuff that I had had, the institution of marriage is, put above of the person's soul, the person's mind, the person's spirit, the person's body. So whatever you're dealing with on as an individual sometimes isn't looked at. They just look at you as a couple. And the institution of marriage, we got to keep this together at all costs. And the individual within the marriage is dying, you know?

00:29:13:09 - 00:29:23:05
Sarah White
So we need to have someone recognize that we're going to put the individual person over the marriage and the union. The person's soul matters more than this union.

00:29:23:09 - 00:29:34:15
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. What do you think are some things that you did when you were kind of starting to see through all of this, that still kept the image intact of a good marriage, a good relationship?

00:29:34:19 - 00:29:56:03
Sarah White
I don't really know, but probably, continuing to go to, you know, family things together and try to maintain that outside reputation, you know, whatever. But at home was not okay most of the time. So probably just trying to keep things looking very happy from the outside or posting happy photos or whatever, which I mean, a lot of that isn't fake either.

00:29:56:03 - 00:30:12:22
Sarah White
So that's the confusing part. But yeah, I think just denying my own feelings really like just living in survival mode and denying my own gut reality. I had to get very brutally honest with how I, how I was really doing and what was really, really happening.

00:30:12:22 - 00:30:31:04
Lisa Sonni
So Self-trust is is lacking in these moments, you know, over the relationship. We get so groomed and conditioned to rely on them for how we feel and to kind of validate the experience, you know, like you're overreacting and it's sort of like, oh, okay, am I all right? You just shift yourself. So then seeing it, you doubt it.

00:30:31:04 - 00:30:35:12
Lisa Sonni
You're like, this is abuse, right? I think you're so confused.

00:30:35:16 - 00:30:54:07
Sarah White
Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, so a conversation we had had, which maybe you could speak to, this is I'm not abusive. I have done things that have been abuse to you, but I'm not abusive. So that really confused me for a long time to like, okay, he's not abusive. There's just done things that are abuse but not abusive.

00:30:54:07 - 00:31:01:07
Sarah White
Like that was very much I believed it, you know, for a long time. And and that was, a denial piece on the other person's part.

00:31:01:07 - 00:31:21:21
Lisa Sonni
that is like a master of avoiding accountability. It's like I did the abusive thing, but that doesn't speak to who I am. I just do it all the time. So to me, and actually, to be fair, the actual definition, right? Abuse is a pattern of behavior and a pattern because that's a key, right? What does that mean. More than twice. Right. More than two times.

00:31:22:03 - 00:31:43:06
Lisa Sonni
So if he screams at you okay. And then he screams at you again. Yeah. It's abuse. And that does make you abusive. I think that the desperation that some men feel, and I feel like that is the most perfect word. They are desperate to, to like, disassociate themselves from the label because they don't want to be an abuser, but they're happy to be abusive.

00:31:43:09 - 00:32:06:00
Lisa Sonni
And you might think that makes no sense, but it really does because they don't want it to speak to their identity. It's just this thing I do. Yeah. Abuse. If you do it twice you're abusive. Some of them. What. I haven't screamed at you in a year. So if I scream at you twice over ten years. I highly doubt the guy is going to scream at you twice over ten years, because it tends to be a lot more frequent than that.

00:32:06:00 - 00:32:14:23
Lisa Sonni
But it's just a way to kind of deflect but buy into it because you're like, hey, we're married. We made a commitment. We made vows. He's not all bad I love.

00:32:15:02 - 00:32:31:20
Sarah White
Yeah, or he's trying like he's trying like I has. Nothing bad has happened for six months. Okay. We're good. Like, you know that pattern of holding your right. Yep. And feeling like, okay, we've been good for a year now. Is is and my safe yet? I don't think I'm safe yet. I don't know if I'm safe yet.

00:32:31:22 - 00:32:49:22
Lisa Sonni
So. And you know, you're not that. And that's the thing is like your body would settle your nervous system would calm if you were safe. But you're not that type of rebuilding. Even in a marriage where their vows have been broken or any abuse has happened, you would need long term, very consistent. And six months isn't even enough.

00:32:49:22 - 00:33:15:01
Lisa Sonni
To be fair, a year would be the fastest in my opinion, to really start to, you know, see, change and heal. But you just don't see that, like when you really think, you know, if I yell at you once in a year, that matters, that's going to reset all of the pain. Oh yeah. Just make that. Yep. out of this will create a blindness like we were in it. But we are psychologically blind to what's going on.

00:33:15:06 - 00:33:34:02
Lisa Sonni
And it could be denial, it could be betrayal, blindness which is this whole other thing. I did an episode on that last season, actually, with Doctor Jennifer Freed, who actually coined the term betrayal blindness. It was a great one, but always goes back to like, if you were more understanding, if you could just understand that he was struggling, you know? And if you let me go to therapy, things will get better.

00:33:34:02 - 00:33:37:17
Lisa Sonni
They'll go back to the way that they were, or it's your fault that I did this.

00:33:37:20 - 00:33:53:21
Sarah White
For me, it was a lot of you have too many walls up or you're too angry. That's what I started to really pay attention to. You know, you're so angry all the time. Well, yeah. Why do you think I'm angry all the time? Because these things keep happening. You have so many walls up. I don't know how to tear the walls down.

00:33:53:23 - 00:34:22:03
Sarah White
Well, maybe stop doing this harmful thing. And so for me, it also became, the impact versus intent. And so a lot of I was intending to I wasn't intending to, but do you see the impact it's had on me? And ultimately it was no, we're not able to admit about how deeply you've been impacted. And until you're able to admit that and fully get at denial, you can't you can't change, you know, until you're able to really meet yourself in such a deep way that you admit all of the things that are true and see that person's pain deeply.

00:34:22:07 - 00:34:41:21
Lisa Sonni
Which I've never really seen in an abusive man. You know, they perform that sometimes the good man and then the good Christian man, even, you know, of performing, I get it, I hear you, I was wrong, I mean, fine, I was abusive when I'm changing. But I think what's interesting, you're talking about the distinction of like, okay, it was abusive.

00:34:41:21 - 00:34:51:23
Lisa Sonni
That thing was abuse. But I'm not abusive. That's confusing because you do you want to disassociate that with him? Like you have an investment in this relationship to.

00:34:51:23 - 00:35:12:14
Sarah White
Like what you said about them knowing that they're harming you? Yeah, that hurt me immensely to actually, like, start believing that and knowing that to be true, that, your boundaries have been set, and then something happens to cross the boundary and they're doing something on purpose to harm you. They know they're being harmful in that moment, it's very hard to comprehend.

00:35:12:15 - 00:35:17:00
Lisa Sonni
let me ask you then, like when I said that to you, what was your first reaction.

00:35:17:03 - 00:35:35:06
Sarah White
My first reaction was probably no, that's what I was conditioned to believe for so many. It was, either, an accident or, sin problem or an addiction problem or, you know, lack of self-control, which is like, you know, I have lack of self-control. I just need to get better with self-control.

00:35:35:09 - 00:35:41:06
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. It's always something so easily fixed. Right? I just have to. I just have to learn how to be more in control of myself.

00:35:41:09 - 00:35:58:18
Sarah White
I believe that for so long. And so then it was like, okay, I'll do my part. Like, oh, I'm at a sex therapist. Why am I at a sex therapist right now? I don't have that problem, but I was still a part of those meetings and a part of those appointments, you know, because I was trying my best, my hardest to make it all better.

00:35:58:21 - 00:36:25:09
Lisa Sonni
I know we try so hard, but you know, I, we can't fix a broken men nor should we try. We're not therapy for broken men, but also men need to solve their own problems with this like abusiveness is a worldview. It's a belief system that they feel entitled to be able to treat someone else this way. And the biggest indicator is what I referred to earlier, that if you treated him the way that he treated you, we all know that they would flip a table, right?

00:36:25:09 - 00:36:33:02
Lisa Sonni
So they know the behavior is bad, but they do it anyway. And once you start to see it, it's like, Was there a moment or was it over time?

00:36:33:02 - 00:36:54:06
Sarah White
It was just very slowly over time when I started learning things probably five years ago and it was becoming more mainstream, and probably some of your videos that I had watched and some other, videos on sexual coercion and just. Yeah, lots of different things where I'm like, oh, this was emotional abuse when I believed a lie that they told me for years on end. That is not normal.

00:36:54:07 - 00:37:17:04
Sarah White
It's not normal for someone to lie to you and make you believe their lie, you know? Yeah, that's called gaslighting. And so then I was like, oh, I really have been get because that word is thrown around so much these days and so is the word this. But I'm like, oh no. I was actually deeply gaslit from the very beginning, like 20 years ago, in the true sense of the word, what it actually means, what.

00:37:17:04 - 00:37:38:23
Lisa Sonni
It actually means. I know I often kind of, clarify that, like truly gaslight and you, but you find yourself kind of adding in these language of like, no, for real, like an actual narcissist, like an actual truly was gaslighted. And it's because we're still wanting to be validated because we weren't in this relationship. When you've experienced gaslighting, it's like you want to express that or say that.

00:37:38:23 - 00:37:44:04
Lisa Sonni
But meanwhile, do you trust yourself? That's no, because of gaslighting. It's men. It's brutal.

00:37:44:10 - 00:38:03:03
Sarah White
begging for it's begging for someone to truly see you and begging for love. Or you're constantly just asking for validation and love from someone that keeps harming you. Like, love me as much as I love you. And then there's a lot of loving things that happen to that just keep you stuck. I feel like. And so it's really getting out of that mindset

00:38:03:03 - 00:38:14:05
Sarah White
and I mean, I think what you said, a big key is realizing that they know that they're harming you. You know, that kind of changes everything when you feel like, okay, they know they're continuing to harm me.

00:38:14:07 - 00:38:40:12
Lisa Sonni
It's been my biggest message, you know, of, of the last couple of years to anyone who subscribes or follows to any of my social media. He knows. He knows. It's the message I want everyone to understand. It's a simplified. I get that there's nuance and context, but fundamentally. Yes. They know what they're doing, and that is one of the keys to really being able to step out of this is realizing that they know because you can't hide behind

00:38:40:14 - 00:38:55:23
Lisa Sonni
they're traumatized and they're working on it and they're trying they know what they're doing. And a man who actually understands that he's hurting you, he would let you go. He would not want to continue hurting you. It's like, oh, I'm hurting you. Okay, well, you need to stay while I figure this out. No, I do not. I'm being hurt.

00:38:55:23 - 00:39:03:10
Lisa Sonni
I thought you loved me. Now it's becomes proof of your love to stay. But that's one of the issues. Is this expectation of loyalty.

00:39:03:12 - 00:39:16:02
Sarah White
I've been working on myself for the last six months. That you don't. You see, I've been trying. I've been trying. I'm trying. But then you did something that was hurtful again, even though you were trying it. Yeah. There's so much confusion. If you're confused, you're being abused. Yes.

00:39:16:02 - 00:39:40:06
Lisa Sonni
That's the message. You know, I feel like, you know, behind every perfect marriage photo and all the family outings and everything, there's always going to be a story that you'll never see. And some people's relationships, it's just simply not perfect. And in some people's relationships, it's it's hidden abuse. Abuse happens in plain sight. Plenty of abusive men are like the good Christian men that everybody thinks is a nice person.

00:39:40:09 - 00:39:55:09
Lisa Sonni
I wish more people could understand that most abuse is actually very covert, and these men are in our communities and we do know them. There's this big myth, right? You don't know. And abusive man. So many men deny that they even know a man like this, you know.

00:39:55:11 - 00:40:19:23
Sarah White
And those are the type of women I want to help. Honestly, those are the type of women that it was like. That was me 20 years ago. 15 years ago. So confused and just trying my best as a young mom with kids and all along that those covert, very, very hidden, very confusing. But it is abuse and those are the women I would really like to help them recognize when they're in that, because I'm not a I'm not a man hater.

00:40:19:23 - 00:40:37:08
Sarah White
I don't hate men. I know there's good men out there, but it's just recognizing those qualities in a man and recognizing those patterns and Learning to trust your gut, learning to trust your body. So that's really what I have a passion for, is the hidden covert abuse, not the loud, you know, in your face where it's very blatant.

00:40:37:08 - 00:40:41:13
Sarah White
It's the really hidden secret stuff that I really want to help, help women.

00:40:41:13 - 00:41:00:12
Lisa Sonni
I love that so much. You know, I feel like if you're the woman who looks happy in all the photos, but you cry alone in the bathroom after you get home from family functions, you're not alone. So many women report like sitting in their cars, crying in their pantry. I want these women to know that you're not betraying your vows.

00:41:00:12 - 00:41:24:20
Lisa Sonni
You're not betraying your relationship. You are not disloyal. You are not selfish. You're not abandoning someone. You are just honoring yourself. And you deserve that. And you deserve to have the freedom to choose to leave if that's what's healthiest for you. And if it's abuse, it is what's healthiest. I firmly believe that. So I know leaving is hard, but I certainly advocate for women to get themselves out as easily as possible.

00:41:24:23 - 00:41:29:08
Lisa Sonni
Thank you so much for being here today. It was. Such an in. Conversation.

00:41:29:08 - 00:41:37:09
Sarah White
So much for me. Last year when I took your trauma course or trauma bond course. So I just want to, you know, pass it on. That's that's what we're doing.

00:41:37:10 - 00:41:52:01
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, absolutely. I'm glad that you that you took that, trauma recovery group coaching program and that you learned a lot from it. And honestly, like, I love that you're out in the world teaching people how to get out of this. You know, there's space for so many of us. And unfortunately, there's. Two of them. And

00:41:52:01 - 00:42:04:22
Sarah White
I have, like, a trifecta. It's like, I know about, emotional abuse and sexual coercion within the church and a Christian relationship, and then also physical, physical cheating. So, I can empathize with all of those things.

00:42:05:03 - 00:42:06:10
Lisa Sonni
Thank you so much for being here.

00:42:06:12 - 00:42:08:09
Sarah White
Thanks for having me, Lisa.

00:42:08:11 - 00:42:17:21
Lisa Sonni
If this episode gave you clarity. Share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember, you're stronger than before.

00:42:17:23 - 00:42:22:03
Music
Stronger than before.