Divorcing a Narcissistic or Toxic Partner: What You Need to Know | S3EP12

In this episode of Real Talk with Lisa Sonni: Relationships Uncensored, Lisa speaks with Angela Van, CEO of Family Court Corner, about the realities of divorcing and co-parenting with an abusive or highly destructive partner. Angela shares lessons from her own ten-year custody battle—one that reached the Supreme Court of Canada—and explains how she now helps survivors navigate divorce, custody disputes, and post-separation abuse.

The discussion focuses heavily on strategy. Angela explains how abusive partners often create constant distractions and conflicts to keep survivors emotionally engaged and reactive. This pattern can drain energy, escalate conflict, and damage credibility during divorce or custody battles. Learning to disengage, manage emotional responses, and shift focus back to personal growth and stability can be a powerful way to regain control during this process.

The episode also examines how emotional dysregulation, ego, and understandable anger can unintentionally work against survivors in family court. Judges, lawyers, and professionals observing the situation often see only behavior in the moment, not the long history of abuse behind it. Because of this, maintaining composure, documenting behavior, and refusing to be pulled into conflict can become critical parts of protecting both oneself and one’s children.

Throughout the conversation, Angela shares practical insights on navigating high-conflict divorce, handling custody disputes with abusive partners, and maintaining emotional boundaries during co-parenting with someone who continues to provoke conflict. The goal is not only survival during the legal process, but ultimately growth and empowerment beyond it.

Topics discussed in this episode include post-separation abuse, family court strategy, divorcing an abusive partner, custody battles with toxic ex-partners, emotional regulation during divorce proceedings, co-parenting with a high-conflict parent, and reclaiming personal power after leaving an abusive relationship.

If you are interested in relationship psychology, toxic relationship recovery, custody battles, or strategies for navigating divorce with an abusive partner, this episode offers insight from someone who has lived through the process and now helps others do the same.

Join Lisa Sonni & Dr. Peter Salerno in Boston, MA November 13-15, 2026 here: https://lisasonni.com/unbreakable-and-irreplaceable/

Transcript

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00:00:00:00 - 00:00:08:17
Music


00:00:08:19 - 00:00:36:01
Lisa Sonni
This is real talk with Lisa Sonni: Relationships Uncensored, the podcast they don't want you listening to. Most people really assume, you know that if you have been abused, that the truth is really going to be obvious when the conflict is visible to other people. And that often can happen host separation or in family court. But we assume that the emotional person is often the one that's hurt. And the calm person might be the reasonable one.

00:00:36:03 - 00:00:59:02
Lisa Sonni
But the thing with abusive relationships is it's not always kind of how that plays out. And something I see a lot are survivors of abuse in a post separation kind of capacity, really being emotionally dysregulated and angry and feeling all the things and still being provoked and still being abused and our ego gets in the way. And that sort of how dare you.

00:00:59:03 - 00:01:19:09
Lisa Sonni
You know, I've already left. I don't have to put up with this anymore. I want to talk about how this really gets in the way of co-parenting, how it gets in the way of your healing, how it can get very much in the way of your custody battle or your divorce proceedings. And I want to first introduce my guest, Angela Van, CEO of Family Court Corner.

00:01:19:09 - 00:01:21:09
Lisa Sonni
But can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

00:01:21:13 - 00:01:55:05
Angela Van
Yes. I am Angela Van. I went through a ten year custody battle in all levels of family court in this country, including the Supreme Court of Canada. My children were protected against emotional and physical harm during that process. And now I help other people navigate this, you know, through all of the emotional things that they are dealing with, but also through the strategy, co-parenting and how to be your best self as you're going through this so that you can grow, while you are in the worst time of your life.

00:01:55:11 - 00:02:11:22
Angela Van
So what I see is a lot of people, transforming from victim to warrior to survivor and walking out of this stronger than they may have been without the support. So that's my work. And and it is my whole life now.

00:02:12:02 - 00:02:30:15
Lisa Sonni
I love that, you know, I think that the people, I mean, myself included, right? The people who turn what they went through into something like you really have something, you know, and I want to talk a little bit more about your business and what you do. Because to me, truly, and I know, I mean, I couldn't sing your praises enough, but this whole like, women lose, you should be scared.

00:02:30:15 - 00:02:51:04
Lisa Sonni
Don't leave because he's going to take your children and all this, you know, he still provokes you. He still it. It is such a bad message for people. But being provoked makes sense in this kind of context. I mean, the abuser has lost control once you leave the relationship. And something I always say when you leave, you don't know this person anymore.

00:02:51:05 - 00:03:11:15
Lisa Sonni
You don't know the version of this person that you thought you knew because they're trying different tactics. And if you have children with this person like they are definitely going to use the children against you. And it's why ego and emotional dysregulation are these two really big pieces that are going to hurt you in your healing in, in so many different ways.

00:03:11:15 - 00:03:33:15
Lisa Sonni
It's going to work against you in these situations. And I know this is like a touchy sort of thing to say. I don't I never want to blame people for having bad outcomes in family court, because I'd be the first person to say family court is wild and it's difficult and it's emotional and it's all these things and people lose and people win and have mixed outcomes and all kinds of things, and I totally get that.

00:03:33:15 - 00:03:55:03
Lisa Sonni
But I really want to look at the strategies that people use, where then they do have successful outcomes and how ego and emotion can kind of step into that and how you can help people, how people can help themselves. In fact. But let's take a quick step back here. Abusers provoke you. So even in post separation. Right.

00:03:55:03 - 00:04:04:18
Lisa Sonni
So how does the conflict happen? What do you see in post separation. What do you see these people doing? I kind of dig at the victim or the survivor.

00:04:04:19 - 00:04:31:02
Angela Van
Yeah, it's tough because there are so many examples of it and many of them are very common. But what I see, if we could go a step like sort of underneath is we see this dynamic where the abusive parent is constantly creating distraction and constantly peppering you with something to provoke you, and it causes your attention to go to them.

00:04:31:02 - 00:04:51:18
Angela Van
So you spend your whole, you know, all your energy focused on them. They're the problem. How do I fix them? How do I solve that? How do I and your, your, your lens is out there when really we start to take our power back, when we realize that all of those things are a distraction, to create fear, to keep us focused on them.

00:04:51:22 - 00:05:13:17
Angela Van
And if we can just recognize that as a first step, then it becomes a practice of disengaging sooner. And if we can disengage sooner, then we start to focus on our self and our growth, which is exactly what causes them to react more and come out of the shadows for complete strangers to see. And that's where we start seeing protections put in place.

00:05:13:17 - 00:05:21:12
Angela Van
And people, you know, professionals who don't know you from anyone else starting to recognize that. Okay, wait a second. There is a problem here with that parent.

00:05:21:16 - 00:05:39:18
Lisa Sonni
I do not want to just skirt past something that you just said that I feel like people are going to miss if I don't just pause and say like, hold on here, listen to what she just said. It gets worse. And people are like, oh my God, that's worse and a want worse. Hold on. What she said, what I'm hearing you say is that people are going to see it.

00:05:39:18 - 00:06:00:04
Lisa Sonni
It brings them out of the shadows and it makes professionals see the behavior. Because yes, you're doing what you need to do. You're behaving as well as one can behave when they're in this horrible situation, but it provokes the abuser. Actually provokes is probably the wrong word, but it provokes the abuser to come out of the shadows and show their worst self.

00:06:00:06 - 00:06:29:00
Angela Van
Yeah, I like to say it invites them out of the shadows better. It's an invitation like these come out a little bit. Yeah, I know that can be scary. But here's what I've realized over time. And working with so many parents is. Yes, it is terrifying. It is terrifying. But what we're doing here is we're realizing that the safety mechanisms, the safety measures we put around ourselves during the relationship that kept us safe and kept the children safe, keep him or her calm.

00:06:29:04 - 00:06:50:15
Angela Van
Don't upset the other parent, right? Like we have to manage their emotions for them that no longer works. When you're separated and you are co-parenting and you are trying to prove that your children need protection, or you're trying to prove that you need protection, it no longer serves your goal. So your goal now has to shift to, I need to protect the children and or myself.

00:06:50:19 - 00:07:12:11
Angela Van
And the way to do that is to let everybody see who this parent really is. And if you continue to manage their emotions because you are afraid of their reactions, then essentially they get to stay in the shadows. So we have to find a way to do this safely, as safely as possible. I'm not saying go recklessly. Invite them, you know, onto the battlefield where you can get hurt.

00:07:12:12 - 00:07:20:08
Angela Van
there are ways to do this carefully with eyes on it, with, you know, a plan in place. And we do it gently and we do it over time,

00:07:20:10 - 00:07:35:08
Lisa Sonni
Tell me, what about the ones that are just so unbelievably covert, like the abusers that seem regulated, seem calm, seem reasonable, the ones that you almost can't, or at least people don't feel like they can be invited out of the shadows. They declined that invitation.

00:07:35:11 - 00:07:56:14
Angela Van
Those are my favorite. Tell me why. Because it's, you know, those are the most satisfying to pull out of the shadows. Those are the ones that, you know, have thrived in the shadows and thrived behind closed doors, harming people. And so it may be a slower process. It may be, you know, a more frustrating process to pull them out.

00:07:56:16 - 00:08:18:11
Angela Van
But they won't see it coming if you do it gently and you do it carefully and you do it from a child focused mindset or, you know, just, you know, we're trying to solve problems for the children and things like that. Also, I think probably one of the biggest parts in all of this in pulling someone who is covert out of the shadows, is fiercely grounding in and committing to your own healing.

00:08:18:15 - 00:08:37:09
Angela Van
Because if you don't do that and you don't have the support of a therapist or a coach or someone who can, who can help you through that and hold you through that, then you will get scared and you will back down. And when they see you backing down, that's a vulnerability. They will stomp on it, they will laugh.

00:08:37:09 - 00:08:38:18
Angela Van
They will stay behind closed doors.

00:08:38:23 - 00:08:40:05
Lisa Sonni
So they smell blood.

00:08:40:08 - 00:08:53:17
Angela Van
Yeah, they smell the blood. So you've got to focus on yourselves mostly. I mean, we're talking about pulling someone out of the shadows. And really, I want to take this back to what I said earlier, which is let's not focus too much on that. That's the outcome, right?

00:08:53:21 - 00:08:54:03
Lisa Sonni
Yeah.

00:08:54:03 - 00:09:13:14
Angela Van
How do we get there? We get there by focusing on our healing and staying child focused and staying solution oriented, and not getting sucked into the battle too long. You know, if he or she brings, conflict to your to your front steps, let's just take a step back and go. I don't think I need to participate in that today.

00:09:13:14 - 00:09:28:09
Angela Van
And that's a different reaction. Now. They no longer know who you are and that makes them nervous. And they start reacting in certain ways. So we sort of flip the table on them to where maybe we were the reactive ones. And now when we stop reacting, they start reacting.

00:09:28:14 - 00:09:53:16
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. You can invite them to be themselves to kind of steal your language because you are bringing them out. I think when what has worked in the past doesn't work anymore to provoke you, you can't be provoked or you're not provoked by the same things you've changed. You've at least started and are working towards healing. You're throwing them off, and then they start trying new tactics so you can almost make them different.

00:09:53:16 - 00:10:14:20
Lisa Sonni
And and that is the example of bringing them out of the shadows, because now they have no choice but to try something else. I hate this expression, but it's such a good one is nothing changes if nothing changes. Yeah, you have to change. An abuser is not necessarily going to change, certainly not for the better. They make it worse, but they're going to do anything to provoke you and using kids.

00:10:14:20 - 00:10:32:00
Lisa Sonni
Let's be honest. I mean, my God, that's one of the easiest ways because the protective parent is, you know, with that, like mama bear energy or you can call it polar bear energy. So I think that's kind of unique, actually, for my channel, is that I speak to women who have been abused by men, never to say that the reverse doesn't happen.

00:10:32:00 - 00:10:52:22
Lisa Sonni
It's just not what I talk about. You never use gendered language, and a lot of people see you talking, and they immediately assume that you only work with women, or that you only help women, or that you're like anti dad But the truth is, you are very gender neutral. And I think that's such a great thing. You don't see that a lot, but you are here to help the safe parents manage what they need to manage.

00:10:53:01 - 00:11:09:20
Angela Van
Actually. What I'm here to help for the children. Right, Evander? Yeah. Like for me it is really about the children. When someone books me, I'm not going. Oh, is this the problem? Is this the problem, parent I'm looking at the parent in front of me saying, how can I help you be your best self so that your children benefit from that?

00:11:10:01 - 00:11:29:17
Angela Van
So even if there is a parent, a woman in front of me who is reactive and maybe saying, you know, inappropriate things to her children without realizing that it's, you know, maybe going to cause harm. I'm going to try and explain to her that that's not how you know, that doesn't benefit the children. Here's another way let's focus on their emotions and solve the problem.

00:11:29:21 - 00:11:51:22
Angela Van
And same with men. If they are doing something that I think, you know, they could be doing differently to support their children, I'm going to tell them that do really aggressive people book me? Yes, all the time. And I choose not to work with. That's what I realize. But yeah, I've seen monsters on both sides of the gender war here, and, I just don't participate in that.

00:11:51:22 - 00:12:16:21
Angela Van
I don't participate in the gender war. Because my male clients, my dad clients, I call them, are always screaming from the rooftops whenever they see comments on my posts about you know, you only support women. They're in the background going, But I'm here. She supports me. And, you know, we're doing well. So I think that, you know, if we can all just get child focused in, in the family court realm, right.

00:12:16:21 - 00:12:33:19
Angela Van
If you're battling, you know, for your children, if you're not child focused, how can you expect the judge to be child focused if you're going in screaming about my rights as a mom or my rights as a dad, how do you expect the judge to see what the child needs? That's their whole job.

00:12:33:21 - 00:12:49:06
Lisa Sonni
I totally agree with you, and I think that a lot of people and you know, as I am not a divorce coach, but I do see a lot of people believe that they are child focused and not everyone is. That's that's for damn sure. And I think that is truly the most important thing. And I love that you even corrected that

00:12:49:06 - 00:13:09:02
Lisa Sonni
if like, I'm you're you work with safe parents, but to be child focused because that's a huge part of the the strategy. I think that that works so well now abusers of any gender, right. Abusers are very good at provoking these reactions. And I loathe the term reactive abuse. And I don't want to have a whole big thing about that.

00:13:09:02 - 00:13:33:20
Lisa Sonni
But this is like prolonged provocation. It pushes the the survivor, the victim to react. He's calm, she's calm. And then the survivor is the one flipping out. So this is where the emotional regulation I think really needs to come in. So let's talk about this, importance of and how you actually keep yourself emotionally regulated and how this looks to the professionals, how this looks to the abuser.

00:13:33:21 - 00:13:52:07
Angela Van
Yeah. It is so important. I mean, especially in the context of co-parenting and keeping things calm for your children. More so, I mean, yes, you have your case going on if you're in family court, but you also have your children who are watching you. Right? And we want to teach them emotional resilience, and they will learn that from watching you.

00:13:52:12 - 00:14:13:18
Angela Van
So you are the biggest mentor if you are reactive and you are being triggered, we have to look at that. that's a warning sign. Right. Like that's like okay, I have something to work on here. Because if you keep reacting then it will be difficult for everybody to see who is problematic for the children because we can't have both of you reacting well,

00:14:13:18 - 00:14:37:11
Angela Van
you know, sometimes there's the other side that is very calm after they've triggered you, they just sit back and watch you lose your mind. Right. And you're having a moment because they've pushed you. So far. That is a very, typical abuse tactic. But at the end of the day, I don't want to say, but because I don't want to minimize it, but and also family court will just see your reaction.

00:14:37:14 - 00:15:03:12
Angela Van
And it's not to say that they don't get it, but what they do is they stand in the shoes of the children and say, is this healthy for the children to have a parent who cannot manage their emotions well? And so it comes down to it being that simple, unfortunately, and in situations where there is abuse, that's why I always say your first job is to work on your healing, because your abuser knows that your trigger button is right here in the relationship.

00:15:03:15 - 00:15:18:02
Angela Van
This is them. This is you. Your trigger button was right here. They knew where it was. They knew exactly how to push it. Your job is to move it back so they have to work harder to find that when they go looking for it here and realize it's not there anymore and it's back here, they're going to go looking for it.

00:15:18:02 - 00:15:29:03
Angela Van
So they're going to escalate a little bit. They're going to try new tactics. They're going to start going crazy, move your trigger back through your own healing process. And as you do that, they're going to come out of the shadows more.

00:15:29:05 - 00:15:49:11
Lisa Sonni
love that I think that there is, a real feeling of injustice that people struggle with. I see it every day, and it's something that I help people work on. It's like living in that injustice, that family courts are going to hold them accountable. The world doesn't hold them accountable. This isn't fair. But connecting that to the dysregulation, I understand.

00:15:49:14 - 00:16:10:12
Lisa Sonni
I think both of us really understand right from lived experiences that that that sort of injustice and feeling like things aren't fair. That feeling can just eat you alive. And it is so much dysregulation because when you say things like, you know, family court is just looking at it from the perspective of the children. I know. And I see your comment sections and when I talk about it, I see it.

00:16:10:12 - 00:16:34:00
Lisa Sonni
Two people are like, yeah, but they should care that they just as the example I'm going to use, dad abused mom and they should care. They should care about that. They care from the lens of the child. And so we have to be looking at it that way. But when you're sitting in this injustice and dad, you know, quote wins a motion or gets more time than, than mom wanted or whatever, right?

00:16:34:00 - 00:16:47:02
Lisa Sonni
The safe and unsafe parents, you feel so angry and then it makes maybe the victim or survivor act worse and be more dysregulated, more pissed off. How do you help people get past some of those injustices?

00:16:47:02 - 00:17:07:01
Angela Van
I think is first, resetting your expectations and reframing your mindset. So one thing I learned through my battle was, and I think my lawyer said this to me multiple times, something to the effect of if you're looking for justice in family court, you're never going to find it. So when thinking about it like that, you're like, of course it can make you angry.

00:17:07:01 - 00:17:28:00
Angela Van
What do you mean? This is a court of law. There should be justice here, right? It's the it's the just justice world. This is where we go for justice, right? For me, justice. I had to redefine it and go, what am I actually fighting for? Do I want the other parent to suffer? Because that's the justice I was seeking, right?

00:17:28:00 - 00:17:44:13
Angela Van
And at a certain point, I was like, you know, he is doing this and he needs to pay for that. And I redefined it at some point when I realized, there's no winners here. Everybody's losing. Everybody is losing. The world is on fire. The children are suffering. I'm suffering. He's suffering. Nobody's happy here. But we have to keep going.

00:17:44:13 - 00:18:23:18
Angela Van
So what are we going for? And I started going for peace instead. That is what I consider justice. If I can just achieve peace the most peaceful solution in this courtroom for my children and me, then I have achieved justice. And that's what I went for. And that's what I teach my clients to go for it. Because if you're going for vengeance and you were going for justice, then your mindset will become more and more angry and all your words flowing from you in every doctor's office you show up to, in every professional you meet, and every time you're testifying, that mindset is going to seep out that you want to punish the other parent.

00:18:23:23 - 00:18:42:18
Angela Van
And when that happens, the court loses its focus and they go, this is just two parents going at each other. She wants him to separate. He wants her to suffer. The kids are just sitting there going, who's going to help me? And so that that's where we get 5050 orders. That's where we get confusion. The court doesn't know what to do, so they just draw everything down the middle and send you on your way

00:18:42:18 - 00:19:13:17
Lisa Sonni
And I can so get that, you know, like making snippy comments in doctor's offices or talking to professionals or like your feelings are evident, right? When you're dysregulated, it's going to come across even if you're doing your absolute best. You know, sometimes it can still come across, but particularly if you're not doing your best or you don't have access to therapy, or you haven't been able to kind of get a handle on it yet, and you're interacting with people in family court or outside of family court, your kids, teachers, or honestly, even your friends, your parents, your his parents, you know, people around you, whatever.

00:19:13:17 - 00:19:33:05
Lisa Sonni
But when you're interacting with people, I think it's going to be really obvious that you're pissed off. And if you are operating from that place of being angry all the time, which again, is justified anger, I want people to really understand. I'm not criticizing the feeling. It's it's actually being able to get yourself out of that feeling, first of all, is good for you for purely selfish reasons.

00:19:33:05 - 00:20:01:06
Lisa Sonni
I'm just going to say that not being filled with rage all the time is just a good feeling for yourself, but it also is going to translate when you're talking to professionals. If you go in dysregulated and you're upset, you're talking to, a mediator, a guardian ad litem, a parenting coordinator, and you're making digs, or you're coming at these professionals with all these little minutia of all these little things that happened, and you're not demonstrating like, this is an issue. And here's why and here's how it affects the children.

00:20:01:11 - 00:20:09:11
Lisa Sonni
I can see why people struggle to convince professionals sometimes, you know, coming from dysregulation and operating this way, it's bad.

00:20:09:11 - 00:20:27:10
Angela Van
Yeah. And I can also understand why they do it and I sympathize with it. Like I get it I've been there right. I've been in, you know, meetings with professionals or even with my own lawyer. And I'm sitting there going, he did this and he did that, and he and she would look at me and go, here's how we're going to talk about that differently.

00:20:27:12 - 00:20:48:08
Angela Van
Right? It's like, okay, so my my anger, I'll go take that over to my therapist. But in this, you know, arena, I'm going to talk about how it's affecting my child, what their experience is. And it's a different mindset. Right. So there's a spectrum of being child focused. And I think a lot of people just say, well, I am focused on my child, I'm fighting for my child.

00:20:48:08 - 00:21:18:13
Angela Van
I am doing all the things for my child, but they're going about it the wrong way. And that's what they're missing in this whole equation. Is that the the ego has convinced them that they're child focused and that they they're doing everything perfectly because they don't realize that their primal instincts are driving the bus. And not actually sitting back and going, how can I explain this in a way that really doesn't talk about my ex at all, and instead fully focuses on the child and what they need and what maybe what their symptoms are, and you know, how they're doing,

00:21:18:16 - 00:21:28:06
Angela Van
what would support them as a totally different conversation. Then this child was at dad's house last weekend, or mom's house last weekend. And they're feeling terrible today, right?

00:21:28:09 - 00:21:50:06
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, the framing is entirely different. I love that you talked about that sort of sympathy piece, because anybody who's been through this knows that, like, I can't imagine anything more difficult, right? You're fighting for your children, you feel angry. You feel traumatized. You're living in survival still. I mean, people act like somebody bad or abusive to you. Just leave.

00:21:50:08 - 00:22:09:02
Lisa Sonni
And then nobody really talks about the fact that post separation abuse can be some of the worst abuse you'll, you'll ever face because you're not in the relationship anymore. And I think people feel like they have less power than they actually have. So when you feel disempowered, traumatized, you're in fight or flight mode. Your nervous system is shot.

00:22:09:05 - 00:22:38:01
Lisa Sonni
All of the anger, all of the intensity, it would be weird if you didn't feel that way. I think we can all agree that's. But visible dysregulation can undermine you where perception matters. So much. And this is a perfect example. Now the ego piece that you touched on, I cannot stress to people enough how much this matters. I would argue one of the most important pieces in post separation is getting your ego in check.

00:22:38:04 - 00:22:59:23
Lisa Sonni
But the ego is kind of a tricky thing because it tells you, as you said, that you are child focused, you are doing the right thing. It's like you can't even see that you're operating from that. And I want to use a really cliche example that I know that as a divorce coach, you disagree with people, and I've seen so much content on this, and it is the most ridiculous example that is so controversial.

00:22:59:23 - 00:23:15:13
Lisa Sonni
I feel like, you know what I'm going to say, which is I'm not making his schedule. If there's a dentist appointment, the dentist can text him that, he can log in to the portal and he could see it. I am not his damn secretary. Tell me your take on that and tell me why this connects to ego. I

00:23:15:13 - 00:23:39:23
Angela Van
have strong feelings about this one, Lisa. No, I was, I I've said it before. I was the happiest little secretary during my custody battle. You know, at a certain point, there was a time where he was expected to get his own information, and I didn't have to do that anymore. That came after I proved that he was uninvolved and interested in using this as a way to communicate with me and create conflict.

00:23:40:02 - 00:24:04:02
Angela Van
Once I had permission from the court to not have to respond to those things because I had proven that, then I no longer was the secretary. I was happy to hang up my secretary cape and be done with that. My goal here is always prove what you know to be true. Don't stomp your feet that the other parent wants 5050 and therefore they want to be a full time parent.

00:24:04:06 - 00:24:25:06
Angela Van
They better come up and show that they can do it right. They're asking for all this just to get a child support. They better show up and do the hard stuff. That's ego. Those those thoughts in your head that that, that say those types of things is ego. You're mad. You're mad that the other parent was never involved.

00:24:25:12 - 00:24:44:05
Angela Van
And now all of a sudden, because they want to get out of child support, I'm using this example just specifically, they don't actually want to be a parent. So you're like, well, go be a parent and you're handing everything off now and saying, I'm not communicating with you. Well, one of the biggest mistakes you can make in a family court case is to not communicate and to not communicate effectively.

00:24:44:08 - 00:25:01:06
Angela Van
So if the other parent is saying to you, send me everything, send me the report card, send me the doctors, put it in the calendar, right, let's have this calendar. And you, you update it. I'm happy to update the calendar. I have checked my ego. I'm not upset about that. If I booked a doctor's appointment, I'm putting it in the calendar.

00:25:01:08 - 00:25:21:08
Angela Van
He can get his reminder set up. I'll let him know. I'll reply and say, yeah, it's all done, no problem. Right? Because why? I am not a secretary for him. I am a secretary for my children. It's not about him anymore for me, because we are separated. Now you can get angry and say, screw that person. They can go do it.

00:25:21:08 - 00:25:41:18
Angela Van
They can call the school, they can do it now, you can do that. But how are you going to explain to the court that the other parent expects you to do everything, and you're happy to do it? Give me all of the responsibility or honor I can handle sole decision making. He or she doesn't want it. Here are 17 examples of them demanding the information from me instead of getting it themselves.

00:25:42:00 - 00:26:03:23
Angela Van
You need to build your evidence base, and you can only do that if you check your ego and actually realize what you're fighting for, what you're trying to prove, instead of trying to prove to your ex that they can't handle what they're asking for. Which is what that statement is. I'm not your secretary. You're trying to prove to your ex that you know they can't handle it. Yeah,

00:26:03:23 - 00:26:20:07
Angela Van
that's not my job. When I'm in a family court battle, if I want to get sole decision making of my children, my bosses, the judge. My boss is not my ex. I'm not reporting to him anymore. I'm trying to get him to be convinced that I know he's not capable. I need to prove that to the real boss.

00:26:20:07 - 00:26:21:20
Angela Van
And the real boss is sitting on the bench.

00:26:22:01 - 00:26:38:00
Lisa Sonni
What a different perspective. You know, I think, I could almost guarantee that there'll be comments being like, I don't care. I'm still not doing it. To each their own, you know what I mean? Not here to force people to do anything. But I love the the difference in this because I know that feeling of like, I'm not doing this for this person.

00:26:38:00 - 00:26:59:16
Lisa Sonni
Screw that. But if you look at it and you flipped it completely 180 I am proving that I can handle the responsibility, and then I can go back and say, on 17 occasions over the last six months, this parent has deferred to me. I am the one who is responsible, I am I mean, you wouldn't word it exactly that way, but you could frame it as true because it is true.

00:26:59:16 - 00:27:14:22
Lisa Sonni
So give them a chance to fail. In many ways. But I think people see it as like giving them a chance to fail, meaning they will never be able to track all this, and therefore that will prove that they're not a good parent. But see, you're not trying to prove that they're a bad parent. You're trying to prove that you're the responsible one.

00:27:15:02 - 00:27:27:15
Lisa Sonni
And even that is a mindset shift. And you have to let go of ego. But why do you think like that need to be right is so important to people in such a such a common trap for people who've been through this?

00:27:27:15 - 00:27:47:07
Angela Van
I think part of it is just natural human behavior, right? When we have a thought in our head, we have an opinion, whether it's about our case, whether it's about politics, whether it's about religion, whether it's about any of these world topics. Everybody thinks they're right. Everybody thinks they're on the right side of the fight, even people causing harm.

00:27:47:07 - 00:28:11:11
Angela Van
They truly believe they are doing the right thing. And it takes a lot of introspection. It takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of therapy to be able to stare at yourself and go, maybe that's not serving my purpose. Whether it's a behavior of yours, choices you're making, whatever it is. Right? So we have to be able to fiercely focus on ourselves.

00:28:11:11 - 00:28:27:18
Angela Van
And that's why every time it's like, how do I prove that he's a terrible parent? That's not your job. Your job is to prove that you are the responsible parent and that your children have issues that need a solution right now. And if that so happens to mean that it's based on the other parents poor behavior, cool. Great.

00:28:27:18 - 00:28:45:21
Angela Van
Back it up with evidence and let's go see what the judge says. But if you build your whole case and your whole life around focusing on that parent and what they're doing wrong, you're going to slip up, you're going to be chasing your tail, you're going to drive yourself crazy and you're not going to heal through this. You're going to be paralyzed. You're going to be paralyzed in the healing space you're in. Right now.

00:28:45:21 - 00:28:55:22
Angela Van
Whatever level of healing that is for you, you are going to be stuck there and you're not going to understand why. And I think that the most powerful tool we have is looking in the mirror.

00:28:55:23 - 00:29:09:18
Lisa Sonni
I totally agree, and that's really hard to do. I completely get it. Do you have any other common examples of how ego shows up? Like what do you see in practice, whether it's your comment sections or your clients? Like where does ego trip people up the most? In your experience.

00:29:09:22 - 00:29:16:06
Angela Van
Everyone feels like they need to have the last word in in a in a battle of words, you know, back and forth with.

00:29:16:11 - 00:29:18:15
Lisa Sonni
My brain just went to noted like. Yeah,

00:29:18:15 - 00:29:39:02
Angela Van
yeah. Note it. Yeah. The list of final answers. Right. Yeah. You know, everyone feels like they need to have the last word. And if you're dealing with someone who high conflict, whether it's, you know, your your ex-boyfriend, your co-parent, your whoever, your parent, anybody, if you want to have the last word, you're going to be talking forever.

00:29:39:07 - 00:29:54:23
Angela Van
You're going to be going back and forth forever. You have to be the one who understands when it's time to back out of conflict, when you realize it's no longer productive. We're not on topic. We're not solving a problem anymore. We are over here in the weeds. You have to be the one that says, I'm not. I'm not playing in the weeds with you anymore.

00:29:55:00 - 00:30:16:08
Angela Van
Right? It's almost like I have this visual, some kind of funny visual, but, like, I've always visualized like a swamp, right? We've got this swamp monster who is constantly reaching up, and it's gooey and it's stuff is dripping and it's disgusting. And and I'm up here. So whenever a high conflict person comes near me, I picture them as a swamp monster.

00:30:16:10 - 00:30:33:09
Angela Van
Do I want to be dragged into that? No. I like to stay up here where it's clean. I'm on the grass. The beach is right there. Like I'm not playing in the swamp with you. Okay? I did that long enough. We're done. So if it doesn't serve my my goal of peace. I'm not. I'm not playing. I have nothing to say.

00:30:33:12 - 00:30:56:12
Angela Van
You can stay over there and keep trying to create conflict, and that's fine, but I'm not going to participate in that. So getting the last word is an example of that. There's also this like superior versus inferior mindset piece that I find people are stuck in and don't realize it. But it's this I'm the primary parent and I've always done the best for the kids, and they're just a piece of garbage.

00:30:56:12 - 00:31:19:04
Angela Van
Who doesn't know how to parent wasn't involved. There's all these statements that people make where it's like minimizing that other parent. And while it may be true they weren't involved, that's just factual. They weren't involved. But sometimes when you so deeply, your ego really thinks that's an important fact, you start making mistakes. That seeps out into everything you say.

00:31:19:06 - 00:31:34:19
Angela Van
And when professionals start to see like the superior versus inferior mindset, they go, oh, maybe this one's a control freak a little bit. We need to take some of that control away from this parent who thinks they're superior. It's a fine line between feeling superior and feeling like the responsible parent.

00:31:34:23 - 00:31:54:20
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, it is. Absolutely. And I get that feeling too, if like, but I'm the one that was doing everything and I get it like, let's just draw your attention back to ego needing to be seen as the responsible parent in the primary parent. So show that you are instead of using it like, this person sucks and they haven't done this and they don't do this. I'm doing everything

00:31:54:20 - 00:32:11:10
Lisa Sonni
it's just yes, I make the doctor's appointments. Yes, I do the pickups and drop offs. Yes, I help them with their homework. The other parent may say that they do those things, but if they're asked to prove it, they wouldn't be able to if they're actually lying. So I, I love the like just move deep breath. Focus on yourself.

00:32:11:12 - 00:32:42:04
Lisa Sonni
I don't know if anything harder. Right. Again, we're not saying this is easy. Oh yeah. Yeah. If you stay focused on this like this emotional battle and you stay focused on ego and, and in fact, I shouldn't even say focused on ego. I think if you stay focused on them, not realizing that you are operating from a place of ego, this immediate denial, like, I know I've hosted events in the past and you and I have hosted an event once in the past where we talked about ego and the amount of people that were like, I don't operate from place of ego, I don't know, I absolutely don't.

00:32:42:04 - 00:32:50:16
Lisa Sonni
Everybody said they didn't. Most probably were, which again, understandably so. Like being able to recognize it and not deny that you're doing it is is like step

00:32:50:19 - 00:33:14:09
Angela Van
one. I think one of one of the important things we need to talk about to here is ego is not necessarily a bad thing, right? Like people hear ego, especially when they've jumped into like the narcissism talk and world and social media platforms about narcissism and learning all about what they've experienced with their ex. Right, and why and how and what it is and all the traits and all the things.

00:33:14:09 - 00:33:36:00
Angela Van
What do we talk about? The most when we talk about narcissism? Ego. They're egomaniacs. Right. And so when I come out or you come out and we start talking about ego and how you need to check your ego, victims and survivors feel attacked sometimes when when we allude to the fact that they have an ego because they think they they've learned it's a bad thing.

00:33:36:06 - 00:33:54:06
Angela Van
And if I can say anything here today, we all need to understand the ego is not necessarily bad. You just need to understand how to work with it. You need to understand how to partner with it so that when it jumps, like I picture these different people in my head, right? I've got the ego, I've got the inner child.

00:33:54:06 - 00:34:15:18
Angela Van
I've got, you know, this, deep, independent thinker who can make good decisions and, and really, you know, that's the person I want to stay in. I want to stay in that mindset of like, independent, calm, reserved, like really looking at everything. What happens is when when we get triggered, ego steps up, gets out of bed and goes, hey, I'll handle this.

00:34:15:18 - 00:34:38:16
Angela Van
Let me, let me. Adam. Right. Yep. And we have to be healed enough. Not healed, but healed enough to where we're able to look at ego and go, you know, it's okay, I got this right. I'm. We're okay. Just take a seat. If I need you, I'll call you. Right. And we can give ego certain jobs to keep them busy because they they'll get antsy.

00:34:38:20 - 00:34:58:23
Angela Van
I get antsy sitting around doing nothing, waiting to be called to the forefront again. Right. So for me, I gave ego a job. And that job was to get me healthy. Let's go fiercely focus on running. I was a runner for a while, right? So I'd get out there and pound the pavement and I'd put on some really harsh music and let ego just fucking play. Right.

00:34:58:23 - 00:35:20:08
Angela Van
and now in my content, you'll see I let ego play around in there too. There are some posts I make where I'm, you know, I'm tough. I'm talking about how I won. I'm talking about how you're you're a warrior. That's ego. That's Angela's ego in a healthy way, serving people. Right. Helping people recognize and seeing themselves where they can do work.

00:35:20:13 - 00:35:28:06
Angela Van
So we have to partner with ego. It's not a bad thing. It's just you need to learn how to tell it what to do instead of telling you what to do.

00:35:28:09 - 00:35:46:17
Lisa Sonni
I love that let your ego help you. Let your ego help your children. It's such a different perspective. I do see like the sort of battle right between the abuser and the and the survivor. Like we feel like she gets to this and I have to respond and I it's like, step out of it. Because pretty sure match energy with a narcissist.

00:35:46:19 - 00:35:59:02
Lisa Sonni
Looks like you, right? You're letting them drag you into the swamp that you talked about. Get out of there. I'm I'm honestly I'm above it. I'm above being in the swamp. That's how we need to kind of see it. Let your ego tell you you're better than this now.

00:35:59:06 - 00:36:16:17
Angela Van
Yeah. And if you're stronger, you can imagine the battle is going on. Whatever it is, whoever you're battling here, that's a problem. If you can imagine them sort of, you know, in a big arena, they're in the center ring and they're just spinning around fighting with themselves while you're up in the nosebleeds. Just looking down on it like, this is ridiculous.

00:36:16:17 - 00:36:34:22
Angela Van
Let them just spin themselves out. You don't need to participate in everything, right? You can rise above it. So, however, that you know there are different visualizations you can use to really put yourself in a different space and go, I don't need to be down here in this tug of war with this person right now. I can go up into the 500 level and just watch it from above.

00:36:34:22 - 00:36:40:22
Angela Van
You'll have a better perspective of the whole thing. Take some time space and then figure out, do I need to respond

00:36:41:01 - 00:36:57:13
Lisa Sonni
You know, not responding is an interesting one, and I know it's not going to be like a whole topic here, but the concept of like needing to respond can be ego driven sometimes you have to. I'm remembering this client years ago that was like, no, no, my court order says I have to respond. And so the conversations feel endless.

00:36:57:17 - 00:37:15:11
Lisa Sonni
And I was like, wow, that I can I see the the clause. And it did say what she said, but I was like, but do you also understand that no judge expects you to have an endless conversation? Like all conversations do have an end. Yeah. You know, maybe your ex asks you a question or says something, and then you respond and they respond and you respond.

00:37:15:11 - 00:37:35:11
Lisa Sonni
But like, at some point asked and answered, we're done here, so you don't have to. But I think there's fear there too, which is a whole other topic. But the fear of going against a court order. And I'm like, that's not what that was. That was possibly ego coming in to sort of be like, I have to respond and I need the last word, which is unhelpful.

00:37:35:11 - 00:37:41:13
Lisa Sonni
Let them have the last word. Honestly, I actually find that much more satisfying of like, keep talking. Whatever.

00:37:41:17 - 00:37:58:22
Angela Van
Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. The one thing they feed off, you have to we have to remember. Right? The one thing they feed off as attention when they don't get it, they lose their minds. And so if you are trying to get get the last word, you're feeding them, you're trying to you're constantly feeding them. And of course they're going to respond because they want they want you to respond again.

00:37:58:22 - 00:38:16:14
Angela Van
So you pulling back and saying, you know what, I'm just going to let that sit on read. There's nothing for me to solve here. They're going to be constantly checking and wondering why you haven't responded. And that's part of like I said earlier, moving that button back, that trigger button back, they're going to be coming out looking for more, and showing everybody who they are.

00:38:16:14 - 00:38:34:21
Angela Van
But yeah, those court orders that say you have to respond a certain amount of time, the spirit of those orders is solve the problem. Like if there's a question, hey, are you available on Thursday to watch the kids? You have to respond to that in accordance with that court order. But if they're saying, hey, you pig, why didn't you answer it?

00:38:34:21 - 00:38:52:03
Angela Van
Da da da da da da da da about garbage. That is not your responsibility to answer like you don't have to partake in that. You can step back. I think you can honestly put that in front of a judge and say, Your Honor, this was not a productive conversation about out of the conflict. I bowed out of the conflict, disengaged.

00:38:52:03 - 00:38:56:12
Angela Van
And this is how I'm, you know, trying to keep conflict small, low for the children.

00:38:56:16 - 00:39:14:06
Lisa Sonni
for the children don't let's just exactly for the children I this this is all like such hard stuff. And I know people feel really overwhelmed and terrified and all of that. So, like, what do you think is kind of that first shift that people just have to make to start operating from a much stronger position?

00:39:14:08 - 00:39:34:05
Angela Van
Very first and very basic is everything is in writing. We're no longer engaging verbally with an abusive parent or a co-parent. When you're in a high conflict custody battle, for example, everything needs to be in writing because otherwise they're going to play in the verbal world where you'll never be able to prove what they said. So everything in writing, you don't engage verbally anymore.

00:39:34:08 - 00:39:55:17
Angela Van
That's number one. And number two, I would say is really stepping back and understanding what your responsibilities are in terms of answering to a judge. So every decision you make should be how would I explain this in the courtroom if I were there, if I were called up on this right now? And you need to understand what your responsibilities are as a co-parent.

00:39:55:17 - 00:40:20:21
Angela Van
You need to understand what your communication responsibilities are, what your logistical responsibilities are, how much you need to be sharing. Those are all great questions to ask your lawyer up front. Very first consult. This person is going to keep me involved in communicating constantly. What are my responsibilities? Baseline how much do I need to communicate so that you can operate and start moving forward without totally focusing on the other parent? The next thing

00:40:21:02 - 00:40:51:05
Angela Van
you really need to get into therapy. I know that is inaccessible for some people. There are resources online. There are all kinds of, you know, things you can follow, books you can read, affordable options for self-help and and growth. And so fiercely focus on your healing, whatever that means for you. It could be a religious thing. If you are religious, you know, it could be, just like I said, self-help books, but find something that resonates and start focusing on you, not the other parent.

00:40:51:06 - 00:41:11:22
Angela Van
As you practice that, that will become easier. It'll become second nature, and you will see the difference in how this co-parenting situation is operating. You will start to feel your power rising, not in an egotistical way, but just in the. I feel more confident and I feel more peace because I know when that message comes in, I'm equipped to handle it.

00:41:12:04 - 00:41:23:05
Angela Van
And so a coach can help you with that. A therapist can help you with that, but these are things that are basic. As soon as you can start to learn these basics, because it will serve you long term.

00:41:23:06 - 00:41:41:19
Lisa Sonni
Amazing. And I so agree. I want to just echo all of that. It is it is just true. And that matters so much for people. You know we see success stories in family court. I see I don't work in family court, but I see success stories in people's healing and people's ability to let go of the anger. And I don't mean forgive.

00:41:41:19 - 00:41:58:02
Lisa Sonni
Again, whole other topic, but I don't personally subscribe to the idea that we need to forgive the person to be regulated and let go of ego. You just can move on in other ways. You feel free to forgive. And I'm just saying that not everybody has to do that. But we don't have to hold on to these negative feelings.

00:41:58:02 - 00:42:16:06
Lisa Sonni
What happened in the relationship is awful and it's abuse and it's terrible, but you don't have to operate for the rest of your life through that lens because it's going to it's going to hurt you. Now, this conversation is not about blaming women for reacting to abuse or men, right? It's not you're not at fault for having reactions,

00:42:16:06 - 00:42:37:01
Lisa Sonni
but we are in control of ourselves, anger and hurt. Those are such natural responses. When somebody has abused you or mistreated you, it makes sense. But in high conflict situations, the person that learns how to regulate themselves and actually step out of these traps, you're going to end up in the strongest position, in my view. And I'm sure you agree.

00:42:37:04 - 00:43:01:01
Angela Van
Yeah, because your emotions, if they're unmanaged, become a distraction. And if they become a distraction to the professionals, then we get into longer court battles and are necessary. We get into bad results from court professionals, and you may not realize it until it's too late because you didn't subscribe to the work ahead of time. so that can be a really difficult reality for some people.

00:43:01:01 - 00:43:14:19
Angela Van
And I meet a lot of people in that place. They'll they'll meet me year five of their battle and they'll say, God, I wish I found you sooner because I made all these mistakes, and I got this terrible court order. Okay, well, let's get to work. Let's show them who you really are now and all the work you've done.

00:43:14:19 - 00:43:34:21
Angela Van
Right. But again, focusing on you. I think the forgiveness piece is really important because that was a big thing for me. I felt the whole time I had to forgive this person. And I realized that that's that's not up to me. I don't need to forgive. I need to focus again on myself and forgive myself for blowing past all of the red flags.

00:43:34:23 - 00:43:56:16
Angela Van
Forgive myself for not being strong enough to say no to certain things. I did forgive myself for a lot, and when I forgave myself, it became easier to not even care about that person's journey. they don't need my forgiveness and I don't need to forgive. They're on their own path, right? I'm not living my life for forgiveness from the other parent, so it's irrelevant, really.

00:43:56:18 - 00:44:16:01
Angela Van
Forgiveness for myself was really important in my healing journey because. And a really difficult one, too. A really difficult one. I wanted to hold myself accountable for so long and just beat myself up for so long, for blowing past all the red flags, because it not only harmed myself, but it also harmed my children in the choices I made.

00:44:16:04 - 00:44:40:22
Angela Van
So that was a really difficult piece, and I felt like if I could just hold on to being mad at myself for those decisions, then that would be justice in some way. The guilt if I, if I held on to it, and letting it go is the biggest freedom for myself. And sometimes it still creeps back a little bit, you know, and you have to address that and go, okay, well, this is kind of like an onion, you know, I got to peel the layers off.

00:44:41:01 - 00:44:57:10
Angela Van
I peeled off, you know, 5 or 6 layers, but there's 1 or 2 that creep up every now and then. You know, there's always work to do. So we all have to be ourselves, I think is is what I'm saying to, you know, I can come out here and people think that I'm being harsh and people will, wish I smiled more and was a little softer.

00:44:57:10 - 00:45:05:10
Angela Van
But we're dealing with serious topics here and we're also, you know, holding space for everybody's place in their healing journey.

00:45:05:16 - 00:45:19:00
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, that's so important. And I know people are going to criticize anything. Anyway with. It, whatever. But this has been such a great conversation. I hope people have really learned a lot from it. Tell us where people can find you. My website,

00:45:19:00 - 00:45:36:02
Angela Van
FamilyCourtCorner.com is the hub for all my services and our app that we have for documenting keeping your case organized. I'm on all social media platforms. On TikTok is family. .court.corner and on all the other platforms it's without the dots. So family court corner.

00:45:36:08 - 00:45:58:06
Lisa Sonni
That is perfect. And while the topic today was not about documentation, I just do want to kind of the extra plug for your app because this is an app unlike anything people have ever seen. And if you are struggling to kind of put together the pieces of your case, or if you feel like it's very scattered, I know so many people that have used your app that are like, Holy crap, I did not know what this was.

00:45:58:06 - 00:46:18:23
Lisa Sonni
I, I've like slept on this app. People think it's a co-parenting app. It is a documentation app. But it's not like, well, I could just use Excel. This tells you what is going on in your case and actually gives you information. You can have your lawyer in on the back end. You can run reports, but it helps you label the behaviors in a way that is child focused.

00:46:19:04 - 00:46:35:14
Lisa Sonni
And I know that you get and I don't want to go off on a tangent, but I know a lot of people are like, oh, you need a gaslighting category. And the categories are what they are. Trust the process. Family court corner.com. Please, if you are looking to kind of make sense of your case, I just want to say this app is phenomenal.

00:46:35:14 - 00:46:59:09
Angela Van
Thank you. Yeah. It gives people this structure to document effectively so that they're not constantly having to scramble to get ready for court. So it is your repository, your personal repository for all of your evidence to keep it secure, to keep it organized and ready for your lawyer to prepare for court. The categories are what they are because they are tried and proven and intentional.

00:46:59:11 - 00:47:32:03
Angela Van
They're so intentional to keep you child focused because we know what works for family court battles around the world and it is staying child focused. These categories are what they are and they are successfully protecting children. So that's our goal. And the app is consistently receiving updates and new security measures. And we are committed to working on this app to keep it in a place where everybody is benefiting from it and helping their lawyers so that they can also save money on legal fees.

00:47:32:09 - 00:47:40:04
Angela Van
So I think that, you know, you can also document on your own, but you need the structure for it. So the app does that for you. Yeah.

00:47:40:09 - 00:47:54:11
Lisa Sonni
Brilliant. So I suggest people go follow you, get your book and on all of that and interact with your content if you need help in that arena, including on some ego work and whatnot. But thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate your time.

00:47:54:11 - 00:47:56:10
Angela Van
Thank you for having me.

00:47:56:12 - 00:48:05:22
Lisa Sonni
If this episode gave you clarity. Share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember, you're stronger than before.

00:48:06:00 - 00:48:10:03
Music
Stronger than before.