Relationships Uncensored: Real Talk with Lisa Sonni
This is the podcast your abuser doesn’t want you to hear.
Hosted by relationship coach and abuse recovery educator Lisa Sonni, Relationships Uncensored pulls back the curtain on toxic and abusive dynamics, gender based violence, and romantic relationships, This is the raw truth no one else is saying out loud. No sugarcoating. No “just leave” advice.
Just real stories, real insight, and real talk - so you can finally feel seen, not silenced.
Relationships Uncensored: Real Talk with Lisa Sonni
How Abusive Men Turn Strong Women Into Women Who Stay with Dr. Peter Salerno | S3EP15
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You didn’t become someone else overnight. You were shaped into someone who could survive him.
It starts quietly. The confidence he once admired becomes “too much.” Your opinions become “dramatic.” Slowly, almost imperceptibly, you begin editing yourself to keep the peace. What feels like compromise is actually erosion.
In this conversation, Lisa sits down with Dr. Peter Salerno to expose the psychological process behind how strong, self-aware women lose themselves in abusive relationships. It is patterned, strategic, and deeply disorienting. They unpack how abusers study your strengths, then weaponize them, how intermittent reinforcement conditions you to stay, and how the relationship becomes a system that rewards your self-abandonment while punishing your authenticity.
They also break down the moment everything flips, when you stop assessing him and start managing yourself. The confusion, the self-doubt, the constant internal analysis. None of it is weakness. It is conditioning.
By the time you leave, the deepest loss is not just the relationship. It is the version of you that slowly disappeared inside it.
Healing is not just about understanding what happened. It is about rebuilding self-respect so fully that you can never be trained out of yourself again.
Join Lisa Sonni & Dr. Peter Salerno in Boston, MA November 13-15, 2026 here: https://lisasonni.com/unbreakable-and-irreplaceable/
This is the podcast they don't want you listening to.
👉 Find me at lisasonni.com
Join my online survivor community called She Rises Collective where we are breaking free, rebuilding and dismantling patriarchy.
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New episodes drop every Tuesday.
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You’re stronger than they ever wanted you to believe.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:08:17
Music
00:00:08:19 - 00:00:15:08
Lisa Sonni
This is real talk with Lisa Sonni Relationships Uncensored, the podcast. They don't want you listening to.
00:00:15:10 - 00:00:17:13
Dr. Peter Salerno
00:00:17:15 - 00:00:36:06
Lisa Sonni
You were a strong woman, right? You knew who you were. You had opinions. You had a sense of yourself. And then somehow you became this woman who stayed with an abusive man, who stayed in an abusive relationship when you knew things were bad. And I want to talk about how that happens, because the truth is, this really doesn't happen by accident.
00:00:36:07 - 00:01:00:10
Lisa Sonni
There's actually process to how this happens, and there's patterns to how abusive men kind of slowly shift you away from yourself, remove your strength, and you don't know what the hell happened after. And this is really is such an important conversation because there's a myth, I think, that women who end up in abusive relationships are weak. But the truth is, most of them are actually quite strong.
00:01:00:15 - 00:01:12:15
Lisa Sonni
And so to help me kind of have this conversation, I am bringing in Doctor Peter Salerno, author of Cruelty by Nature the Science of Intentional Abuse. So, Doctor Solano, can you tell us a little bit more about yourself?
00:01:12:17 - 00:01:52:09
Dr. Peter Salerno
Yeah, I'm a psychotherapist and an author and predominantly, I write about, pathological abuse, pathological abuse relationships where the abuse is more than just, incidental. It's like a covert, chronic, systematic way of relating in these individuals. And so I educate people and help them heal from relationships with individuals who are, most difficult and problematic in that way. And so a couple of the books that, I've written on this topic are Cruelty by Nature, where I talk about the science of some of the proactive and intentional aspects of, abuse rather than the what we typically always assume is reactive or unconscious.
00:01:52:09 - 00:02:14:11
Dr. Peter Salerno
I kind of go debunk that myth in that book and then, traumatic cognitive dissonance, which is a concept related to symptoms from this particular type of abusive relationship that, kind of extend beyond post-traumatic stress symptoms and kind of have these different symptoms, including the one we're talking about today, which is this, sort of beginning to see that reality from the perpetrators eyes versus your own.
00:02:14:12 - 00:02:20:21
Dr. Peter Salerno
So we'll get into all that. But that's pretty much what I've been trying to contribute to this field in this, area.
00:02:20:23 - 00:02:44:20
Lisa Sonni
I know I really appreciate this work because over the last, you know, six or so years that I've been invested in this topic and sharing information with people online, it has been so surprising to me to realize that it's intentional. Now, I know that's a little bit black and white. There's a lot of nuance and context, and I don't mean to simplify totally, but this sort of belief that, like, he doesn't mean it and he doesn't know I am big on dispelling that.
00:02:44:20 - 00:02:58:20
Lisa Sonni
So I really love your content and your books. There's another book that you wrote, The Nature and Nurture of Narcissism, that's phenomenal for people who are more interested in kind of how these disorders develop. I don't want to get off topic. Cruelty by Nature is your newest book.
00:02:59:02 - 00:02:59:10
Dr. Peter Salerno
Yes.
00:02:59:13 - 00:03:27:00
Lisa Sonni
And I really encourage people to read that. I love, you know, this intentionality piece to it. This is kind of an interesting segway into this sort of first part of the conversation about how these, men reassign meaning to who you are and how they study you in the beginning. There's a lot going on early in these relationships, and I feel like, you know, that studying of what matters to you and how you show up. And then it kind of attaches consequences to your natural traits.
00:03:27:00 - 00:03:36:10
Lisa Sonni
Like, for example, if you're confident that's disrespectful, suddenly if you have standards you're controlling, you've boundaries, you have rules. Where do you kind of see that show up?
00:03:36:15 - 00:03:56:05
Dr. Peter Salerno
Well, I think that stuff gets tested out immediately. When it comes to these sort of predatory people, socially predatory people. And when I say that, it doesn't necessarily mean, you know, hunting to seek you out and kill you, it can just be predatory, interactive behavior. Right? So just the way that somebody communicates with you can be predatory. It starts immediately. I,
00:03:56:05 - 00:04:21:12
Dr. Peter Salerno
I like to say, like there's a difference between a first impression and a first intention. And the first intention with these people is that they are going to create an impression to slowly erode your confidence. So it's interesting how good you feel around these people sometimes. But what's actually happening while you're feeling that great is they're like kind of dismantling your reality confidence because they're putting you in this idealized fantasy state.
00:04:21:16 - 00:04:42:13
Dr. Peter Salerno
Not everybody experiences that exactly the same way. But if you don't kind of evoke the reaction they want, they'll find other ways around to start, you know, the subjugation process. So I think it happens intentionally, even before they meet you. And then they they start studying you from the get go. Not everybody's doing it as consciously as the way I'm describing.
00:04:42:13 - 00:05:02:08
Dr. Peter Salerno
I mean, there's different levels of severity of, consciousness but there are people who strategically seek others out in a preferential way and start to erode, you know, the reality, confidence from the beginning so that who you thought you were is no longer okay, even though when they're first meeting you, they're celebrating all of these things only to kind of devalue them later.
00:05:02:08 - 00:05:08:11
Dr. Peter Salerno
And so you start to get really confused. And yeah. But so I think that, the subtleties start immediately.
00:05:08:13 - 00:05:32:06
Lisa Sonni
I think what I hear from a lot of people is like, no, no, my my guy's not that smart. He couldn't be that there's no way. And I see it more as strategy and maybe instinct, even if it's a learned instinct. But it's sort of naturally predatory. It's not that they wake up and they're like, I'm going to go meet a woman and I'm going to pretend to be and I'm going to I don't know that it's always sometimes but not always, but it's still predatory.
00:05:32:11 - 00:05:50:21
Dr. Peter Salerno
Oftentimes it's opportunistic. So it's like you're right. They're not waking up in the morning plotting this day of of predatory behavior. But it comes as naturally and instinctually to them as like being introverted would come to an introvert. So it's not like they're they're they're studying themselves and harnessing this craft so much as they're just thinking from these lenses.
00:05:50:23 - 00:06:07:18
Dr. Peter Salerno
And then when they try things which they've I, you know, this is a taboo topic, but they've tried these things as in childhood. Oftentimes what happens is they try these things with people. They get an adverse reaction. They don't think, oh, I shouldn't do that anymore. I hurt someone, they think, oh, I should do it differently, so I don't get caught next time.
00:06:07:21 - 00:06:26:00
Dr. Peter Salerno
So they're kind of starting from this perspective of the lesson I learned from this is don't get caught. It's not don't do this to people. it didn't feel good for them. So I think that system is developing and being tested out and experienced even by them early on. And then they sort of harness this craft. You mentioned intelligence.
00:06:26:00 - 00:06:50:03
Dr. Peter Salerno
There's no correlation between intelligence. And like the strategies of a, a predatory person, you could have very low IQ and still be clever and crafty in an instinctual way, or intimidating in a way where you get what you want. So it doesn't necessarily equate to like, intelligence, but there's a lot of people who don't have, like intelligence in the sense of. IQ, intelligence, which I don't. I think a lot of people don't even use that term anymore,
00:06:50:03 - 00:06:56:11
Dr. Peter Salerno
but cognitive ability that isn't the same, thing as being able to strategize and in a manipulative way.
00:06:56:11 - 00:07:05:09
Lisa Sonni
I think that's important. Like, I want people to know that because, again, the amount of women that are like, no, it's not possible. I'm like, okay, well, my ex is an idiot too. But I tell you, it's very strategic.
00:07:05:11 - 00:07:27:08
Dr. Peter Salerno
People ask me that a lot like he, but he seems like he seems like he's so dumb. Like I don't mean to be mean, but he just seems like he's dense. How could he I go, well, he could be. He probably could be that. And he also could be extremely crafty and, strategic in an instinctual way, just like, you know, different species of animals, you know, certainly they seem like they're pretty ridiculously inefficient in some ways.
00:07:27:08 - 00:07:49:18
Dr. Peter Salerno
But then there's a trait they have that makes them really skilled at something, concealing something, or hiding or camouflaging, but they don't necessarily have a lot of a lot else up there. So would caution people not to focus on cognitive ability or even like achievement as like evidence that someone's manipulative, you can be manipulative and be very unsuccessful and, and kind of dimwitted.
00:07:49:23 - 00:08:11:23
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, a manipulative brick I love it. Yes. Yeah. That's horrible. I think one of the craziest experiences that I had and I so many clients that I talked to have had is all the things that they love about you become the weapons against you. It's like it's the worst thing about you. I know mine loved that. I was outgoing and like, loud and just like a big personality.
00:08:11:23 - 00:08:20:22
Lisa Sonni
And then it was all of a sudden like, God, you take up so much space. God, you're so loud. And it was like, I don't understand. You used to like this and it makes you feel like you're the problem.
00:08:21:02 - 00:08:46:22
Dr. Peter Salerno
They're pretending to like something that they actually despise because they envy it. So eventually they take it out on you because in a way, they're putting pressure on themselves to uphold this, this thing that they don't actually value. So it's an admirable quality, but with people who are typically like pathologically narcissistic things that they, find admirable in others or in the world, they're coveted, they're not just appreciated, they're envied and coveted.
00:08:46:22 - 00:09:04:00
Dr. Peter Salerno
So, yes, they go after you because you're beautiful. Now, you're not so beautiful because they see that as a competition to their beauty or attraction. It's it's silly the way that they, you know, internalize it and have to make a competition out of it. But I really do believe it's because this is this is brain based disorder.
00:09:04:00 - 00:09:26:17
Dr. Peter Salerno
And so something's not communicating properly when they see something outside of themselves, rather than valuing it just for its inherent value and appreciating it, they have to destroy it for others and then take it for themselves. That seems to be the most logical thing for them. So you're beautiful. You're successful. Oh well, you can't be more beautiful than me because if you get more attention than me, this is a problem.
00:09:26:18 - 00:09:53:16
Dr. Peter Salerno
I can't be seen as your accessory or, you know, you have to be seen as mine. If you're successful, well, you can't make as much money as me. You can just, you know, try and I'll give you the, you know, the A for effort. There's this immediate subjugation of, like, this hierarchical structure. Like they start saying these things that will, you know, make most people feel good to hear because they're it seems like they're genuinely just recognizing things in you that are of good quality.
00:09:53:20 - 00:10:11:05
Dr. Peter Salerno
But what they're actually doing is they're, earning your trust. You know, they're just they're disarming you, and then they're taking all of the things that they know really make you feel validated and secure in the relationship. And they're going to they're going to use them later to start to chip away at your confidence, right in your in your reality.
00:10:11:08 - 00:10:19:11
Dr. Peter Salerno
and that's really why another reason why they do that too. It's not just envy. It's what can I use this for to get an advantage when I need one?
00:10:19:11 - 00:10:39:15
Lisa Sonni
You know, honestly, every time I hear these things described, I'm just so like, this is this is brutal, but people need to hear this. This is really important. I think what's kind of fascinating is how they do this, which really is the kind of core of this conversation. They seem to create this system where you are rewarded when you abandon yourself and punished when you don't.
00:10:39:18 - 00:10:59:16
Lisa Sonni
And this, I mean, can create one hell of an addictive sort of cycle. But they create conflict. But it's to condition you. There's a reason, right? They control access to affection and warmth, and then they use coldness or stonewalling or some kind of consequence or punishment. Every time you go against them. And that really can, can suck people in.
00:10:59:20 - 00:11:01:10
Lisa Sonni
Why? Why does that work?
00:11:01:16 - 00:11:17:02
Dr. Peter Salerno
Well, part of it is, I don't know if this is going to answer directly, but we naturally try to cooperate with people. And so if they're telling you you're getting this right, you're getting this right, you're getting this right, you hit a home run here. This is great. And then they start to say that that's not very good.
00:11:17:02 - 00:11:32:17
Dr. Peter Salerno
Or are you sure you're going to you know, whatever the case may be, are you sure you want to wear that? You know, like these little undermining comments where, you know, the week before that was the most amazing outfit they'd ever seen. You look so great. I mean, that's just a silly example, but it's what they use a language to do, right?
00:11:32:17 - 00:11:50:09
Dr. Peter Salerno
So the original intention of the communication is to, you know, disarm and get you to let your guard down about that thing. So now it's vulnerable, it's open. It's a button that can be pushed. And that's why it works, is because in doing those things, they do in a way kind of study and they're attuned to your reactions,
00:11:50:11 - 00:12:04:20
Dr. Peter Salerno
like because some people it doesn't faze them. If you tell them they're pretty. It's like they're like, try again. That's not that's not the key to my heart. But other people are like, oh, thank you. That's nice to hear. I didn't really hear that a lot. So now men maybe though maybe their body could hear it again sometime.
00:12:04:20 - 00:12:24:18
Dr. Peter Salerno
So when you hear it again and again and again and then one day, in a weird indirect, passive way, then all of a sudden you hear like something related to you don't look that great or that's not that appealing on you. It like stops you in your tracks and it causes your brain to do like something it's not designed to do, which is I predicted, predicted, predicted, received, received, received.
00:12:24:18 - 00:12:43:22
Dr. Peter Salerno
It was consistent, consistent, consistent. And now boom. It's like a car wreck in your head. Like where did that come from? What do you mean this one doesn't cut it. And this is all on, you know, happening in milliseconds. You know, unconscious process. And it can really create this, it's almost like, makes you delirious, like you all of a sudden get this motion sickness of, like, whoa, what?
00:12:44:02 - 00:13:03:02
Dr. Peter Salerno
What happened? Right now? It that works because they have done it enough times to reinforce that you can rely on the consistent, you know, information. And then they all of a sudden pull the rug and your reality confidence can't survive in a cycle like that. I don't know if that exactly answers your original question, but.
00:13:03:07 - 00:13:24:18
Lisa Sonni
I think it did. Absolutely. I can see how we kind of connect, like self abandonment and safety in this process. You know, like said, you're trying to give up things that might matter to you, like the compliments that were coming your way. At one point you're like, okay, I'm going to let go of that or try to earn it back. and change things, you know, change the way you dress, the way you look.
00:13:24:23 - 00:13:43:14
Dr. Peter Salerno
So then you become accommodating in, in sadly, in a pathological way, meaning it's outside the bounds of, of, appropriate level of, of accommodation. It's like now you've gone over, you've been forced to your system has been forced to now over function and over accommodate. well, you're forced to abandon those things, in a lot of ways because you're subjugated.
00:13:43:14 - 00:14:02:03
Dr. Peter Salerno
So every one of those things is now taking away your subjectivity. Right. That's what they're trying to do, is you become an object. You no longer are someone to be admired for this. That's taken away. This is taken away. And then you're forced to function in that smaller world. Like, that's not something I can ask for. That's not something I can expect.
00:14:02:03 - 00:14:21:07
Dr. Peter Salerno
Okay. I'm going to shift. I have to adapt to that. A lot of this is not conscious until like, much later. Like you're not aware that it's being maneuvered in this way because you keep thinking underneath all of the conflict and sometimes weird feelings and sometimes gut instincts that don't add up to me. He's cooperating to make this work.
00:14:21:12 - 00:14:36:00
Dr. Peter Salerno
So if you hold on to that original prior belief that this is a cooperative person, so these must be misunderstandings, or I must be too sensitive or nobody should expect to hear that every day from someone you know. You're only supposed to hear that in the honeymoon phase. All that justification and stuff.
00:14:36:06 - 00:14:55:07
Lisa Sonni
I so agree, you know, when I, I'm thinking back to, I wish, I hate this book, I have a podcast episode actually from a few seasons ago about how much I hate the book, The Five Love Languages, but I remember introducing the topic of the five Love Languages and Words of Affirmation was my top one, but I actually scored high in all except gifts.
00:14:55:12 - 00:15:17:02
Lisa Sonni
And I remember in the book it says something to the effect of like, you're really easy to love when you have lots of love languages, because your partner can do all kinds of things that make you feel good. But for some reason he was like hyper fixated on the words of affirmation. And even though I had always been that way and he was actually very, you know, free with compliments in the beginning, suddenly it was like, God, you always need somebody gassing you up.
00:15:17:02 - 00:15:44:03
Lisa Sonni
You always need words. You always need to be told how you look and how you are. God, you're so self-involved. And it's like, what on earth are you talking about? I also like quality time, and I also like. But anyway, I hate the book. That's a whole other topic, but I hated how what at one point was this great thing about me that he was happy to do without any conversation, and then suddenly it was like the most disgusting thing that you need this and you're it's like, everybody has needs.
00:15:44:03 - 00:15:48:05
Lisa Sonni
You're mad that I exist. And that's what I should have been up on back then.
00:15:48:11 - 00:16:05:14
Dr. Peter Salerno
Well, everything is weaponized. So, you know, anything that they're going to use now is going to be weaponized later and then there. And so in a lot of ways they feel like, I mean, this is what they're motivated to do. Just like you're motivated to try to explain yourself and work things out and connect and repair. They're motivated to do, you know, just the opposite.
00:16:05:18 - 00:16:18:21
Dr. Peter Salerno
But they're not telling you that. It's almost like that's one of the biggest problems is, you know, if if they would say, I have a tendency to be very combative and I say no, even when I should say yes. And sometimes I like even when it's more convenient for me to tell the truth. I mean, that would almost be refreshing.
00:16:18:21 - 00:16:35:22
Dr. Peter Salerno
It's like, okay, well, maybe we could be friends and I'm just going to watch my back. But this other covert stuff is just so. And it's the insidious covert nature of of it where you feel like you can let your guard down here because this is just something someone does, and then all of a sudden, boom, nope, that's not okay anymore.
00:16:35:22 - 00:16:38:18
Dr. Peter Salerno
And you're just you're left spinning. I that feeling
00:16:38:18 - 00:16:59:16
Lisa Sonni
so disorienting. Actually, you touched on something, though. I feel like strong women solve problems. I am a problem solver. I was known for that. I was recruited from all these high end jobs because I was a person who was known for solving problems, figuring out what the issue is, creating systems like. That's me. And so many women are this, you know, I'm kind of quoting Terry Cole and
00:16:59:16 - 00:17:19:04
Lisa Sonni
it's like high functioning codependent where you're like a fixer and a problem solver and but if we do that, if we reflect and we take accountability and we're the type that adjusts. And that's great for men like this, right? Because we don't leave men like this, we go inward and we say, what have I done? What can I do?
00:17:19:04 - 00:17:25:08
Lisa Sonni
How can I fix this? And in a normal relationship, that's a great quality, but not with someone who's pathological.
00:17:25:09 - 00:17:42:20
Dr. Peter Salerno
Yeah. And not someone who's going to exploit it. Because when you over function, they turn that into an expectation or like a demand, not something that they're going to reciprocate, you know, and meet you halfway. So your your cup is continuously getting empty and things like that. So it takes a lot of strength to survive a relationship like this.
00:17:42:20 - 00:18:00:12
Dr. Peter Salerno
It really has nothing to do with weakness at all. It has to do with, you know, resilience and, problem solving capacity and, you know, all of those things you said the willingness to look inward and self-reflect. I mean, those things are actually great qualities. But if you were the only one doing it in a in a dynamic, it's exhausting. And it gets used against you.
00:18:00:15 - 00:18:16:08
Lisa Sonni
that's the worst part. And I feel like, listen, we have this vision of abusive men, right? They're like loud and they overpower you. Many are quite covert. They don't have to overpower you. They condition you to sound correct in some capacity. So you just learn... You don't even know that you're learning.
00:18:16:12 - 00:18:38:17
Dr. Peter Salerno
That's a really important concept is it's not always. And especially when we're talking about men, there's sometimes is this assumption that there's this, overt formidability, like this, like dominance and intimidation, and they're coercing you because just by their presence and oftentimes, no, their presence can actually seem very benign and harmless. But the way they maneuver relationships and things is extremely, like, malignant.
00:18:38:17 - 00:19:07:08
Dr. Peter Salerno
And so maybe you're not even physically intimidated by them in any way. But there's you still need to watch out for that. And, you know, one example of that is the expression of the trait can vary, but the trait is still very malignant. And so and I mean, just as an example, you know, in a relationship that I was in, previously, I had this conversation with my ex where she said someone was making her really uncomfortable at work, the way that he was looking at her, like, he's cool and like, we chat, you know, we're chat and whatever, but, like, we're okay.
00:19:07:08 - 00:19:22:06
Dr. Peter Salerno
But I feel like the way he looks at me lingers a little bit and it makes me a bit uncomfortable. And I just said, okay, well, I mean, if it's an issue, you know, eventually either, you know, confront him and if he doesn't listen, tell someone higher up and see, you know, if he can get because that's not cool.
00:19:22:06 - 00:19:39:00
Dr. Peter Salerno
That's not going to that's going to affect your focus. And it's just something, you know, just a random thing. I thought it was just a random innocent share, you know, a couple months later, we're sitting around and, the phone rings, her phone rings, and she picks it up immediately, all like, bubbly and, you know, hi, Jason. And, and,
00:19:39:02 - 00:19:58:09
Dr. Peter Salerno
I'm like, I'm on the couch, and I'm like, And the only Jason I know is the one that she told me was making her uncomfortable. So, you know, I just connected the dots. And then after the phone call, I said was, who? Who's who's Jason again? Oh, you know, from work I go, oh, oh, okay. Well, last time you talked to me about it, it sounded like there was some issues with him making you uncomfortable now.
00:19:58:09 - 00:20:16:15
Dr. Peter Salerno
And what are you talking about? We're cool. So that started this thing where then he would come up and then it's turned into. They were hanging out together and having drinks after work and things like that. And the more I inquired, the more the jealousy narrative was being set up. Because it looked on the outside like I kept inquiring in a very controlling way.
00:20:16:19 - 00:20:38:02
Dr. Peter Salerno
No one knew the prior data, that there was this massive contradiction, like, why are you getting closer to this person that you said made you uncomfortable? I don't care if he's a friend. You said it was a threat or you presented him as a threat. Right? It got to the point where it was like she turned it into, I'm starting to have anxiety at work because I'm afraid to go to work, because I'm afraid you're going to be mad because Jason's there.
00:20:38:02 - 00:21:00:00
Dr. Peter Salerno
I mean, it was this. And for someone to say this wasn't patterned, strategic, choreographed from the beginning, that it's a defensive reaction. This is fully conscious seeds planted at every step to to dismantle my confidence. I mean, so and I just use that as an example because there was never a voice being raised. There was never even a conflict.
00:21:00:00 - 00:21:19:03
Dr. Peter Salerno
It was just I was just being more inquisitive because I was getting less information. It didn't even get to the point where, I mean, eventually it did get to the point where it was like, you know, you need help. You're crazy, you're paranoid. But it didn't even have to get there yet. it just escalated to a little bit of confusion that turned into, oh, well, now I'm afraid to go to work.
00:21:19:03 - 00:21:37:06
Dr. Peter Salerno
It's affecting my where, I mean, and then you think, wow, maybe I'm overbearing. I mean, why did I ask so many times? So they did you do the work for them, right. And that's the point that I want everyone to hear is you start doing the work for them. You start seeing your reality from, you know, the mirror they want you to hold up versus the one that you came into the relationship with.
00:21:37:06 - 00:21:54:10
Dr. Peter Salerno
And it starts with those subtleties that can spend months. I mean, that whole little con that I mentioned that took months for, for the full plan to unfold. And it worked swimmingly. I mean, I, I dove right into it because I wasn't suspecting there was any possibility it could have been non collaborative or it could have been antagonistic.
00:21:54:10 - 00:22:01:00
Dr. Peter Salerno
I you don't think that way when you're looking at the person you care about and think, they have my best interest at heart. I must be crazy, you know. Right.
00:22:01:04 - 00:22:20:11
Lisa Sonni
That's actually the hardest part. You know, like I feel like what people don't understand unless you've been through it, is how trust and dependency gets built. Early on so that all the crazy crap that happens in these relationships, you just don't see it, or you kind of see it because I know people say, like, you saw the red flags because they didn't seem red to me.
00:22:20:11 - 00:22:31:08
Lisa Sonni
I don't know, it's you. Things make sense. You can rationalize, but it's because they've conditioned you to see things differently. You know, to question the self. Abandonment just ramps up totally.
00:22:31:08 - 00:22:49:13
Dr. Peter Salerno
And the red flags are very disguised. They're camouflaged. So yeah, it's hard sometimes if there's an incongruent feeling with it, sometimes you can feel something in your gut that that's off, but your thoughts are seeing that it's a green flag. Other times you see that it's a red flag, but then your thoughts and feelings are telling you that it's a green.
00:22:49:13 - 00:23:09:19
Dr. Peter Salerno
So, I mean, and they know this, I think it's they're not like these experts of human nature. They're just really they've tried all these things so often. They've kept the things that that worked. And they have this little toolkit, this psychological toolkit of, you know, tactics that normal human beings aren't going to be on the lookout for because, you know, you're assuming collaboration. And.
00:23:09:19 - 00:23:28:01
Lisa Sonni
assuming that they're they're doing, doing right by you and doing right by the relationship. But one thing that is just so prevalent in these types is the way that they always make you the problem, right? Like lack of accountability is just, to me, top of the list of of how they do, how they erode you in these relationships and never take any responsibility.
00:23:28:01 - 00:23:48:20
Lisa Sonni
It's always you. You're the problem. And I can see that in the story that you even told. It's like you're the problem. Even in what I shared, right? It's my need, my existence, my need for anything was the problem. And it doesn't always have to be explosive, right? It's like little micro corrections, commenting on your tone, nagging. You know, you're overreacting.
00:23:48:20 - 00:24:07:08
Lisa Sonni
That's not what I meant. All the gaslighting stuff, but it's nothing that you can prove, right is everything has kind of, I don't know, blanketed in plausible deniability. I didn't mean anything. You're taking it the wrong way. It's just Jason, right? No big deal. Yeah, but if you don't trust yourself, you can't leave, right? Because you could be wrong. Like, what if the problem is you
00:24:07:08 - 00:24:16:13
Lisa Sonni
and then you leave this man and it's your fault and you're the drama, right? So I feel like we stay as we try to figure out what's really going on. Yes.
00:24:16:15 - 00:24:42:01
Dr. Peter Salerno
so you mentioned earlier particularly strong women. You're a problem solving machine in a way, an operating system that wants things to work out for everyone, and so you're going to keep going back to the drawing board to sort this out. That's another thing that keeps you hooked is the inability to resolve it on your own. Whether you want to stay in or out keeps you in, too, because they're you're stuck in that ambiguity, right?
00:24:42:06 - 00:25:01:04
Dr. Peter Salerno
For things to really converge, something needs to tilt enough to one side. And so they keep throwing in these, these crumbs of confusion that once you start settling on something, you doubt yourself. You know, once again, I think that they start to get really good at knowing when they need to for the intermittent reinforcement, you know, lever or switch,
00:25:01:08 - 00:25:23:12
Dr. Peter Salerno
there can be a time where if they flood you with a particular type of attention, it'll hit and land just right, just enough to hook you in. And, I think also it's important for people to realize there's a difference between being addicted to something or having this compulsion for something and then, someone installing something in you that that controls how you think and feel and what you believe.
00:25:23:16 - 00:25:50:16
Dr. Peter Salerno
Because a lot of people like in this too, like an addiction or codependency and things like that. And the difference is, when we're talking about like a substance, the substance isn't actually manipulating you. It's telling you exactly what it is and you're taking it and you know exactly what to expect from it because you've done it before. So there's this compulsive behavior where maybe you can't stop even if you want it to, but you're not confused because you know exactly what the chemical reaction is, is with this.
00:25:50:16 - 00:26:09:02
Dr. Peter Salerno
There's a chemical hijacking. And so you really don't know what is happening or not. And so you can't move forward. So it's it's not that people aren't strong enough to get out, it's that even if the decisions made, you're still immobilized in a way where you can't just walk away from it or like, quit cold turkey. That's not how this works.
00:26:09:04 - 00:26:26:06
Lisa Sonni
I wish all of these animal trauma bonds specifically are likened to addiction. But I, you know, this this is key. And I you talk about this in traumatic cognitive dissonance. Write your book. But the way that somebody is installing this in you, I, I that is a really important piece here. It's not just like, why don't you get it?
00:26:26:08 - 00:26:49:11
Lisa Sonni
There's a reason this is all happening at the same time. Now, you mentioned intermittent reinforcement. I am really big on making sure people understand that the kindness that happens in an abusive relationship is part of the cycle, right? The good exists to facilitate the bad. It's what makes you tolerate. So how does it. Well, first of all, let's let's back up what is intermittent reinforcement for people that might not know that term.
00:26:49:12 - 00:27:06:13
Dr. Peter Salerno
I use an analogy, like the slot machine effect is what it's often called. Okay. So you're on a slot machine, I'll just say an old school slot machine. So you're putting coins in, and you're pulling the thing, and, you know, you, you invest in it once and, you know, it's a small investment, so no harm, no foul,
00:27:06:13 - 00:27:25:19
Dr. Peter Salerno
you lose it. No, no reason to stop now because you're not in any danger zone. And you intended to do this, right? So you showed up. So you have this amount of stuff you can invest, and then it gives you a little back and you're surprised by that instead of just taking it and walking away, typically what happens is you're curious enough to want to know if that can repeat, because that was the goal to begin with.
00:27:25:19 - 00:27:54:12
Dr. Peter Salerno
So now it's like, oh, there's evidence that the goal is being achieved. Maybe I'll stick around in your brain wants prediction, so it wants to see if this is going to produce something. But obviously you can see where the analogy is going to go. Typically what happens is some people can't walk away even when they really, really need to because of the intermittent reinforcement of some gains and then some losses at very strategic points of vulnerability to even the, I think, the algorithm of a slot machine might know to a degree,
00:27:54:12 - 00:28:15:06
Dr. Peter Salerno
I don't know if when people typically will get exhausted, it would get to the point where they will no longer think too much about putting more in, who knows? Maybe it's just all random, but, it's not random. This this formula or this this tactic is not random in these contexts. it's very contained and strategic by the person who's doing it.
00:28:15:09 - 00:28:35:00
Dr. Peter Salerno
So they're, they're intermittently giving you things that feel rewarding, that would make you want to connect to more, that would make you want to disarm. And then they're also intermittently like, pulling the rug underneath you and then they're giving you a little bit more of the good. And so you see that, and then your mind obviously, it wants to tilt in favor of the thing that feels better.
00:28:35:00 - 00:28:40:03
Dr. Peter Salerno
So it's going to keep seeking that out. And that's how that's essentially how the conditioning can work.
00:28:40:04 - 00:29:01:09
Lisa Sonni
You know, funny, because we're both Italian. I use the, I use like a bread analogy a lot because you get like a fresh loaf of Italian bread and you love it and it's so great. And then you get a little bit less, but you're like, okay, you know, all right. Eventually you're sitting here with a plate of little bread crumbs, and those are the best bread crumbs you've ever had in your whole life because you're starving.
00:29:01:12 - 00:29:20:19
Lisa Sonni
So when you get little crumbs of compliments or kindness or warmth or and I don't even find what's really a big piss off to me is that we talk about these relationships like the highs and the lows. There's this middle ground of it's not abuse and it's not love bombing. It's not bread crumbs necessarily. It's like the absence of abuse.
00:29:21:00 - 00:29:35:07
Lisa Sonni
And that can be the reward is just that. It's not particularly awful today. You know, things have been so good lately. Yeah. He didn't scream at you for two weeks. But that's neutral. That's not good. But we see it as good because it's better than abuse.
00:29:35:12 - 00:29:57:23
Dr. Peter Salerno
Yeah. And that's part of that is the self-justification process. Where to survive this you have to try to make a decision on something. So you start, you know, lowering your standards and, and you know, minimizing things and, maximizing inflating other things that's all part of the process of you just trying to negotiate with yourself and make sense of all of the dissonance, make sense of all of the confusion.
00:29:58:01 - 00:30:15:22
Lisa Sonni
None of it makes sense. I mean, it does work on the outside, but I think we both know, like when you're in it, man, it feels confusing is not really the right word. But there's this process to how everything kind of flips. And I think because women in particular, I know it's not specifically women, but we are so good at like flipping this.
00:30:16:04 - 00:30:37:22
Lisa Sonni
You know, I've read studies that talk about how women are much more inclined to look inward than men as a collective. And I find that kind of fascinating here, because there's this flip where you're managing your self and you're worried about how you look and what you say and what you do. And he comes home and you're managing him even a little bit, but you're not evaluating him.
00:30:37:22 - 00:31:09:05
Lisa Sonni
You're not stepping back and looking at the pattern. You're just kind of changing yourself. And to me, like, this is the moment where everything locks in. You're avoiding topics and anticipating things. And, maybe he's giving you some kind of positive reinforcement that this is how you're supposed to be. But when you don't assess the relationship anymore, like you're lost, What's really happening when women find themselves assessing themselves and managing themselves, instead of stepping back and really looking at what's going on in this relationship?
00:31:09:07 - 00:31:32:02
Dr. Peter Salerno
Part of that is the person with the disorder is is externalizing, and then the person who's receiving it, typically if they're trying to problem solve their in, they internalize. And so it's all becoming as if the design is to get the other person, the victim, to look inward at what is going wrong there. And then mistaking it for originating in themselves.
00:31:32:02 - 00:31:51:05
Dr. Peter Salerno
And so that's where you get a lot of the, a lot of people say it's projection. I don't like to use the term projection because it implies that there's it's a defense, and it implies that there's something that's intolerable or uncomfortable in that person. They're trying to rid themselves of it. So they projected out onto you and relate to you as if it's coming from you, because it's intolerable.
00:31:51:08 - 00:32:17:11
Dr. Peter Salerno
I don't think that's always what these people are doing. I think it's completely tolerable, but they're externalizing it so that you are the one to blame, because it's more convenient for it to be you than them. I don't think it's because they have to necessarily rid themselves of it. but that's how the process works, is they're externalizing everything you're internalizing everything, and then eventually what happens is you start mistaking it from originating in you, from all the gaslighting, in the reality distortion.
00:32:17:11 - 00:32:42:00
Dr. Peter Salerno
So what was outside of you now becomes as if it's like happening inside of you. You feel crazy for that, but then you also start taking more and more responsibility self-criticism, self-blame, self-doubt, self-reflecting, analyzing yourself, starting to look at the problems as something that can be solved in a unilateral way. But it has to be coming. You like my fixing this will fix all of that.
00:32:42:02 - 00:32:45:10
Lisa Sonni
Women describe this as working on the relationship.
00:32:45:14 - 00:32:46:06
Dr. Peter Salerno
Yes.
00:32:46:06 - 00:33:03:12
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. They're not though. Right. Like we're working on assessing him and figuring out how to get him to be the man we thought he was. And and sometimes it works. I think that's the hardest part is like, he'll let you think that, well, some of this is actually going to be successful, like I'm trying or he's not.
00:33:03:14 - 00:33:32:16
Dr. Peter Salerno
And so you're working it out or trying to work it out, but he's just sticking it out and just sort of like, you know, letting you like imagine like this is the goal. And then obviously moving it. And like this is where you need to be. Okay. That's not enough work. You got to go do more work. I mean it's never really going to it's never really going to end or come to completion. The work you have to do for this person. But, that's the goal is, is to get you a completely subjugated, brought under the control of them.
00:33:32:16 - 00:33:45:12
Dr. Peter Salerno
And the only way you can do that is if you keep tweaking yourself according to whatever their ideal is in that moment, you know? And that can shift too, which can be confusing. You can think that you accommodated everything they wanted, and then all of a sudden it fell short.
00:33:45:15 - 00:34:03:13
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, it's unreadable standards. It's. Yeah. And I mean, even that like as a person who values success and I find myself ambitious and again strong and all these things, I can solve this. It's like I'm just going to keep trying. There's no point where someone says, you know what, I give up. And there's a lot of reasons for that.
00:34:03:13 - 00:34:21:14
Lisa Sonni
Which, again, could be a whole episode on its own, but the sunken cost and just the feelings of having failed all. Well, undoubtedly this man is telling you that you're failing you. You're abandoning him. You're you're the problem. It's just constantly pushing it at you. And you don't want to be a failure because you don't see yourself that way.
00:34:21:19 - 00:34:22:12
Lisa Sonni
Right? It makes
00:34:22:12 - 00:34:23:15
Dr. Peter Salerno
sense. Exactly.
00:34:23:18 - 00:34:45:20
Lisa Sonni
Now, why do some women kind of end up here? I think that there's this, this belief of, like, women pick these men. I genuinely believe it is far more abusers pick their victims. Having said that, there is conditioning that happens really early on for a lot of people that sort of lead them down this path. And I don't mean like a you were broken before him.
00:34:45:20 - 00:35:05:07
Lisa Sonni
You've always been broken. This is your fault, because that's gross. I don't believe that at all. But like the taught to keep the peace, the be understanding, be forgiving. You know, it feels familiar for a lot of people. What do you think goes on in some people's childhoods or a family of origin that kind of lead them into thinking that some of this is normal?
00:35:05:12 - 00:35:31:13
Dr. Peter Salerno
Well, I think temperamentally people who, are more, sensitive in the sense that they're more like emotionally aware and attuned to others. I think they generally are just more, inviting. And so I'm not saying that you're inviting the bad in. You're just inviting connection in. And then, some people will exploit that sensitivity. So, I think there are people that are just prone to being, kind and friendly and inviting, and there's nothing wrong with that.
00:35:31:13 - 00:35:50:15
Dr. Peter Salerno
So there's just that the reality of from a practical perspective, if you're a predator and someone is inviting, you can exploit that. It's pretty overtly easy to do. I don't believe, though, because so many people get, you know, into these terrible situations without a history of personal adversity. Like they went they had a stable, nurturing childhood. It was good enough.
00:35:50:15 - 00:36:13:17
Dr. Peter Salerno
And they don't have trauma wounds that that are interfering in their life. Those people get, you know, sucker punched and hijacked, too. So it's what I like to say is there's really no particular type of baggage or attachment rupture or trauma that you could have that makes you, develop this like magnetic fold toward or to pull them into your orbit.
00:36:13:17 - 00:36:33:15
Dr. Peter Salerno
I don't think it really works that way. I think what happens is these people are really good at knowing from one interaction or two, how they can relate to you so that they can exploit you not based on your wounds, just based on your personality in general. I think they just they have tricks for every for every, you know, tactics for every type.
00:36:33:19 - 00:36:59:08
Dr. Peter Salerno
I do think, though, that people can develop internal representations of their relationships from childhood, and they can develop relational styles that they're probably going to bring with them into adulthood. And if one of those happens to be overly accommodating, for example, or like people pleasing, then if you find yourself, you know, relating to a, like a highly narcissistic person, eventually that's going to be like severely exploited.
00:36:59:08 - 00:37:18:09
Dr. Peter Salerno
And so my suggestion would be don't change that in you, but safeguard who you offer that to be a little bit more careful. Don't universally be, you know, people pleasing. Like if you have a tendency to be a people pleaser because of your childhood. People please, with people who will meet you halfway and and nurture that rather than exploit it.
00:37:18:12 - 00:37:33:00
Lisa Sonni
I know, I mean, there's a big mess. I feel like that. It's like broken women and women who come from abusive households. And I know Sandra Brown has done some work on highlighting that that's not the case. And I'm I'm glad to know that because I have to admit, I was like, I wasn't abused as a child.
00:37:33:00 - 00:37:56:16
Lisa Sonni
I didn't have a bad childhood. Yeah. I mean, we all have things that happened, but, you know, it never clicked to me. It never made sense. But that belief that women who get in these relationships have been abused in childhood, or they were severely neglected or traumatized in some way, it's just crap. I actually think more, more so it's strong, empathetic, loyal, agreeable, ambitious, kind.
00:37:56:19 - 00:38:09:04
Lisa Sonni
And then these qualities are exploited and the goal is not to go, okay, well, I'm not going to be any of those things. It's to safeguard who you give access to. I love that you worded it that way. That's perfect. That is exactly what we need to do.
00:38:09:06 - 00:38:32:22
Dr. Peter Salerno
Even all those qualities, you just mentioned historically have been considered weaknesses, not strengths. You know, kindness, empathy, like we even when you hear that, it, you know, in a, in a weird way, those are in a, in a sort of a sexist way. Those are like female traits. Those are feminine sensitive traits. Those are actually you have to be very confident in how you use those things. And they're very empowering. And,
00:38:32:22 - 00:38:52:02
Dr. Peter Salerno
and it takes, it takes strength to be like accommodating and, agreeable and things like that. You know, it requires flexibility and understanding which are like, you know, vitally important for social cooperation and things like that. So, I think also reframing what those traits mean, it's not like these are the strong traits and these are the weak traits.
00:38:52:02 - 00:38:59:11
Dr. Peter Salerno
No, those are like superpowers. They just can't be give you don't give your super power to, you know, the villain. Yeah. Otherwise they're going to kill you with it.
00:38:59:15 - 00:39:15:01
Lisa Sonni
Why do you think some of the when there is maybe a little bit of inconsistency or people pleasing conditioning from childhood, why do you think that feels like compatibility when they see that in an adult relationship, like familiarity feels like compatibility sometimes?
00:39:15:01 - 00:39:35:01
Dr. Peter Salerno
Well, yeah, familiarity breeds, comfort, even if it, you know, breeds contempt. You could actually hate the style, but the comfort of it feeling familiar. And then you're our brains and our nervous systems are a prediction machine. We want to know the outcome. So even if it's a bad outcome, a lot of people, their nervous system, tries to fight for the bad outcome.
00:39:35:01 - 00:39:42:03
Dr. Peter Salerno
That's familiar, even rather than a possible good outcome that's novel or unfamiliar. So there's that going on as well. that
00:39:42:03 - 00:40:01:22
Lisa Sonni
all of this is just so brutal. You know, how strong women end up in relationships like this and then struggle to get out of relationships like this? The the healing part of this, you know, once once you find yourself out or even if you're not out getting out of this is is certainly not, an easy task. But both you and I help people do this every day.
00:40:01:22 - 00:40:23:18
Lisa Sonni
But the part that I really want people to hear is that you're not weak. And I think that's the biggest myth. You know, women who stay because they are conditioned and sort of, like, built slowly over time to not actually see what's happening. You get trained out of yourself and conditioned out of yourself. And so the work obviously in leaving a relationship like this, okay, some women have done that.
00:40:23:18 - 00:40:48:00
Lisa Sonni
Great. But the actual work is coming back to yourself and maybe building even a stronger version than, than even existed before that. Stronger than before. But I it's just really important. And I want people to kind of hear about something that you and I are working on, which is a workshop weekend in June 2026 called unbreakable. And Irreplaceable From Survival to Self-respect.
00:40:48:04 - 00:41:02:18
Lisa Sonni
You and I host groups online, Rise and Rebuild and the Trauma Bond Recovery Program. But can I ask you to talk a little bit about unbreakable and Irreplaceable and kind of how we're going to help people rebuild themselves and confidence and self-respect that weekend?
00:41:02:23 - 00:41:20:00
Dr. Peter Salerno
Yeah. Well, so we did our first event last year and it was a success. So we decided we were going to bring it back. And I mean, I can't, I, I don't really know how to sum up just how powerful that weekend was, because all the all the feedback that we received, I was grateful for it because we we intended on it.
00:41:20:00 - 00:41:48:07
Dr. Peter Salerno
And but you, you know, you never know. But it seemed to deliver a very powerful and meaningful message and experience for for everyone who attended. But I think one. You really can't beat the in-person component. I think that's something the community of women that showed up and and that in-person interaction, I think is just, you know, invaluable. So there's there's just that, but there's just something about finding a community that is, inherently validating, inherently understanding.
00:41:48:07 - 00:42:15:00
Dr. Peter Salerno
You don't have to do any explaining, convincing, apologizing, going into an environment like that. And then, the tools that that you and I bring, that have proven successful. And so we're bringing them back because, you know, we're repeating the things that work, all of that. And, just the, the intensity of the, experience with the atmosphere and everything, I don't know, I just, I feel like it's, last year, I described it as like, like you get, like one year of therapy, healing, you know, within the weekend.
00:42:15:00 - 00:42:32:16
Dr. Peter Salerno
And that's, that's really kind of what we're doing. We're kind of jam packing it with in a good way with all of the, the things that work and then add the community element to that and, and the experience of just honoring yourself and treating yourself to the, to the weekends, you know, the travel and and all of that, all that entails.
00:42:32:20 - 00:42:34:02
Dr. Peter Salerno
It's a really powerful thing.
00:42:34:02 - 00:42:54:18
Lisa Sonni
I'm really excited for it. I know, you know, so many women that have attended our workshops have had this like, moment. And I think the key thing here is that you can watch a million YouTube videos and podcast and read books and all the things, but there's something about being there in person, learning and integrating it, and being able to ask questions and witness other women's healing.
00:42:54:18 - 00:43:16:04
Lisa Sonni
That's so inspiring. So all you need is a passport to just, you know, fly to Toronto, Canada for this particular one and join Doctor Salerno. And I at Unbreakable and Irreplaceable, from survival to self-respect. If this conversation that we had today just kind of hits you, that is where we're going to be taking things a lot deeper. So I invite everybody to join us there.
00:43:16:04 - 00:43:21:12
Lisa Sonni
But any any kind of final words on this topic, you know, the message to the strong women who are listening. I
00:43:21:12 - 00:43:46:11
Dr. Peter Salerno
think just continue reality testing, in the sense that this has nothing to do with weakness or inferiority or even insecurity. It's not about it's the foundation of the relationship is insecure because it was based on deception. But that's not your insecurity. So, there's really nothing, It's just there's nothing that can be said about or more than no one's choosing to stay in these dynamics.
00:43:46:15 - 00:43:53:06
Dr. Peter Salerno
There's a there's a hijacking that's taking place. And so no matter how strong you are, you know, there's just we're not immune to that.
00:43:53:08 - 00:43:58:01
Lisa Sonni
an important message. Thank you so much for being here and for this conversation. Yeah.
00:43:58:05 - 00:43:59:18
Dr. Peter Salerno
Thanks for having me.
00:43:59:20 - 00:44:09:06
Lisa Sonni
If this episode gave you clarity. Share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember, you're stronger than before.
00:44:09:07 - 00:44:13:12
Music
Stronger than before.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:08:17
Music
00:00:08:19 - 00:00:15:08
Lisa Sonni
This is real talk with Lisa Sonni Relationships Uncensored, the podcast. They don't want you listening to.
00:00:15:10 - 00:00:17:13
Dr. Peter Salerno
00:00:17:15 - 00:00:36:06
Lisa Sonni
You were a strong woman, right? You knew who you were. You had opinions. You had a sense of yourself. And then somehow you became this woman who stayed with an abusive man, who stayed in an abusive relationship when you knew things were bad. And I want to talk about how that happens, because the truth is, this really doesn't happen by accident.
00:00:36:07 - 00:01:00:10
Lisa Sonni
There's actually process to how this happens, and there's patterns to how abusive men kind of slowly shift you away from yourself, remove your strength, and you don't know what the hell happened after. And this is really is such an important conversation because there's a myth, I think, that women who end up in abusive relationships are weak. But the truth is, most of them are actually quite strong.
00:01:00:15 - 00:01:12:15
Lisa Sonni
And so to help me kind of have this conversation, I am bringing in Doctor Peter Salerno, author of Cruelty by Nature the Science of Intentional Abuse. So, Doctor Solano, can you tell us a little bit more about yourself?
00:01:12:17 - 00:01:52:09
Dr. Peter Salerno
Yeah, I'm a psychotherapist and an author and predominantly, I write about, pathological abuse, pathological abuse relationships where the abuse is more than just, incidental. It's like a covert, chronic, systematic way of relating in these individuals. And so I educate people and help them heal from relationships with individuals who are, most difficult and problematic in that way. And so a couple of the books that, I've written on this topic are Cruelty by Nature, where I talk about the science of some of the proactive and intentional aspects of, abuse rather than the what we typically always assume is reactive or unconscious.
00:01:52:09 - 00:02:14:11
Dr. Peter Salerno
I kind of go debunk that myth in that book and then, traumatic cognitive dissonance, which is a concept related to symptoms from this particular type of abusive relationship that, kind of extend beyond post-traumatic stress symptoms and kind of have these different symptoms, including the one we're talking about today, which is this, sort of beginning to see that reality from the perpetrators eyes versus your own.
00:02:14:12 - 00:02:20:21
Dr. Peter Salerno
So we'll get into all that. But that's pretty much what I've been trying to contribute to this field in this, area.
00:02:20:23 - 00:02:44:20
Lisa Sonni
I know I really appreciate this work because over the last, you know, six or so years that I've been invested in this topic and sharing information with people online, it has been so surprising to me to realize that it's intentional. Now, I know that's a little bit black and white. There's a lot of nuance and context, and I don't mean to simplify totally, but this sort of belief that, like, he doesn't mean it and he doesn't know I am big on dispelling that.
00:02:44:20 - 00:02:58:20
Lisa Sonni
So I really love your content and your books. There's another book that you wrote, The Nature and Nurture of Narcissism, that's phenomenal for people who are more interested in kind of how these disorders develop. I don't want to get off topic. Cruelty by Nature is your newest book.
00:02:59:02 - 00:02:59:10
Dr. Peter Salerno
Yes.
00:02:59:13 - 00:03:27:00
Lisa Sonni
And I really encourage people to read that. I love, you know, this intentionality piece to it. This is kind of an interesting segway into this sort of first part of the conversation about how these, men reassign meaning to who you are and how they study you in the beginning. There's a lot going on early in these relationships, and I feel like, you know, that studying of what matters to you and how you show up. And then it kind of attaches consequences to your natural traits.
00:03:27:00 - 00:03:36:10
Lisa Sonni
Like, for example, if you're confident that's disrespectful, suddenly if you have standards you're controlling, you've boundaries, you have rules. Where do you kind of see that show up?
00:03:36:15 - 00:03:56:05
Dr. Peter Salerno
Well, I think that stuff gets tested out immediately. When it comes to these sort of predatory people, socially predatory people. And when I say that, it doesn't necessarily mean, you know, hunting to seek you out and kill you, it can just be predatory, interactive behavior. Right? So just the way that somebody communicates with you can be predatory. It starts immediately. I,
00:03:56:05 - 00:04:21:12
Dr. Peter Salerno
I like to say, like there's a difference between a first impression and a first intention. And the first intention with these people is that they are going to create an impression to slowly erode your confidence. So it's interesting how good you feel around these people sometimes. But what's actually happening while you're feeling that great is they're like kind of dismantling your reality confidence because they're putting you in this idealized fantasy state.
00:04:21:16 - 00:04:42:13
Dr. Peter Salerno
Not everybody experiences that exactly the same way. But if you don't kind of evoke the reaction they want, they'll find other ways around to start, you know, the subjugation process. So I think it happens intentionally, even before they meet you. And then they they start studying you from the get go. Not everybody's doing it as consciously as the way I'm describing.
00:04:42:13 - 00:05:02:08
Dr. Peter Salerno
I mean, there's different levels of severity of, consciousness but there are people who strategically seek others out in a preferential way and start to erode, you know, the reality, confidence from the beginning so that who you thought you were is no longer okay, even though when they're first meeting you, they're celebrating all of these things only to kind of devalue them later.
00:05:02:08 - 00:05:08:11
Dr. Peter Salerno
And so you start to get really confused. And yeah. But so I think that, the subtleties start immediately.
00:05:08:13 - 00:05:32:06
Lisa Sonni
I think what I hear from a lot of people is like, no, no, my my guy's not that smart. He couldn't be that there's no way. And I see it more as strategy and maybe instinct, even if it's a learned instinct. But it's sort of naturally predatory. It's not that they wake up and they're like, I'm going to go meet a woman and I'm going to pretend to be and I'm going to I don't know that it's always sometimes but not always, but it's still predatory.
00:05:32:11 - 00:05:50:21
Dr. Peter Salerno
Oftentimes it's opportunistic. So it's like you're right. They're not waking up in the morning plotting this day of of predatory behavior. But it comes as naturally and instinctually to them as like being introverted would come to an introvert. So it's not like they're they're they're studying themselves and harnessing this craft so much as they're just thinking from these lenses.
00:05:50:23 - 00:06:07:18
Dr. Peter Salerno
And then when they try things which they've I, you know, this is a taboo topic, but they've tried these things as in childhood. Oftentimes what happens is they try these things with people. They get an adverse reaction. They don't think, oh, I shouldn't do that anymore. I hurt someone, they think, oh, I should do it differently, so I don't get caught next time.
00:06:07:21 - 00:06:26:00
Dr. Peter Salerno
So they're kind of starting from this perspective of the lesson I learned from this is don't get caught. It's not don't do this to people. it didn't feel good for them. So I think that system is developing and being tested out and experienced even by them early on. And then they sort of harness this craft. You mentioned intelligence.
00:06:26:00 - 00:06:50:03
Dr. Peter Salerno
There's no correlation between intelligence. And like the strategies of a, a predatory person, you could have very low IQ and still be clever and crafty in an instinctual way, or intimidating in a way where you get what you want. So it doesn't necessarily equate to like, intelligence, but there's a lot of people who don't have, like intelligence in the sense of. IQ, intelligence, which I don't. I think a lot of people don't even use that term anymore,
00:06:50:03 - 00:06:56:11
Dr. Peter Salerno
but cognitive ability that isn't the same, thing as being able to strategize and in a manipulative way.
00:06:56:11 - 00:07:05:09
Lisa Sonni
I think that's important. Like, I want people to know that because, again, the amount of women that are like, no, it's not possible. I'm like, okay, well, my ex is an idiot too. But I tell you, it's very strategic.
00:07:05:11 - 00:07:27:08
Dr. Peter Salerno
People ask me that a lot like he, but he seems like he seems like he's so dumb. Like I don't mean to be mean, but he just seems like he's dense. How could he I go, well, he could be. He probably could be that. And he also could be extremely crafty and, strategic in an instinctual way, just like, you know, different species of animals, you know, certainly they seem like they're pretty ridiculously inefficient in some ways.
00:07:27:08 - 00:07:49:18
Dr. Peter Salerno
But then there's a trait they have that makes them really skilled at something, concealing something, or hiding or camouflaging, but they don't necessarily have a lot of a lot else up there. So would caution people not to focus on cognitive ability or even like achievement as like evidence that someone's manipulative, you can be manipulative and be very unsuccessful and, and kind of dimwitted.
00:07:49:23 - 00:08:11:23
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, a manipulative brick I love it. Yes. Yeah. That's horrible. I think one of the craziest experiences that I had and I so many clients that I talked to have had is all the things that they love about you become the weapons against you. It's like it's the worst thing about you. I know mine loved that. I was outgoing and like, loud and just like a big personality.
00:08:11:23 - 00:08:20:22
Lisa Sonni
And then it was all of a sudden like, God, you take up so much space. God, you're so loud. And it was like, I don't understand. You used to like this and it makes you feel like you're the problem.
00:08:21:02 - 00:08:46:22
Dr. Peter Salerno
They're pretending to like something that they actually despise because they envy it. So eventually they take it out on you because in a way, they're putting pressure on themselves to uphold this, this thing that they don't actually value. So it's an admirable quality, but with people who are typically like pathologically narcissistic things that they, find admirable in others or in the world, they're coveted, they're not just appreciated, they're envied and coveted.
00:08:46:22 - 00:09:04:00
Dr. Peter Salerno
So, yes, they go after you because you're beautiful. Now, you're not so beautiful because they see that as a competition to their beauty or attraction. It's it's silly the way that they, you know, internalize it and have to make a competition out of it. But I really do believe it's because this is this is brain based disorder.
00:09:04:00 - 00:09:26:17
Dr. Peter Salerno
And so something's not communicating properly when they see something outside of themselves, rather than valuing it just for its inherent value and appreciating it, they have to destroy it for others and then take it for themselves. That seems to be the most logical thing for them. So you're beautiful. You're successful. Oh well, you can't be more beautiful than me because if you get more attention than me, this is a problem.
00:09:26:18 - 00:09:53:16
Dr. Peter Salerno
I can't be seen as your accessory or, you know, you have to be seen as mine. If you're successful, well, you can't make as much money as me. You can just, you know, try and I'll give you the, you know, the A for effort. There's this immediate subjugation of, like, this hierarchical structure. Like they start saying these things that will, you know, make most people feel good to hear because they're it seems like they're genuinely just recognizing things in you that are of good quality.
00:09:53:20 - 00:10:11:05
Dr. Peter Salerno
But what they're actually doing is they're, earning your trust. You know, they're just they're disarming you, and then they're taking all of the things that they know really make you feel validated and secure in the relationship. And they're going to they're going to use them later to start to chip away at your confidence, right in your in your reality.
00:10:11:08 - 00:10:19:11
Dr. Peter Salerno
and that's really why another reason why they do that too. It's not just envy. It's what can I use this for to get an advantage when I need one?
00:10:19:11 - 00:10:39:15
Lisa Sonni
You know, honestly, every time I hear these things described, I'm just so like, this is this is brutal, but people need to hear this. This is really important. I think what's kind of fascinating is how they do this, which really is the kind of core of this conversation. They seem to create this system where you are rewarded when you abandon yourself and punished when you don't.
00:10:39:18 - 00:10:59:16
Lisa Sonni
And this, I mean, can create one hell of an addictive sort of cycle. But they create conflict. But it's to condition you. There's a reason, right? They control access to affection and warmth, and then they use coldness or stonewalling or some kind of consequence or punishment. Every time you go against them. And that really can, can suck people in.
00:10:59:20 - 00:11:01:10
Lisa Sonni
Why? Why does that work?
00:11:01:16 - 00:11:17:02
Dr. Peter Salerno
Well, part of it is, I don't know if this is going to answer directly, but we naturally try to cooperate with people. And so if they're telling you you're getting this right, you're getting this right, you're getting this right, you hit a home run here. This is great. And then they start to say that that's not very good.
00:11:17:02 - 00:11:32:17
Dr. Peter Salerno
Or are you sure you're going to you know, whatever the case may be, are you sure you want to wear that? You know, like these little undermining comments where, you know, the week before that was the most amazing outfit they'd ever seen. You look so great. I mean, that's just a silly example, but it's what they use a language to do, right?
00:11:32:17 - 00:11:50:09
Dr. Peter Salerno
So the original intention of the communication is to, you know, disarm and get you to let your guard down about that thing. So now it's vulnerable, it's open. It's a button that can be pushed. And that's why it works, is because in doing those things, they do in a way kind of study and they're attuned to your reactions,
00:11:50:11 - 00:12:04:20
Dr. Peter Salerno
like because some people it doesn't faze them. If you tell them they're pretty. It's like they're like, try again. That's not that's not the key to my heart. But other people are like, oh, thank you. That's nice to hear. I didn't really hear that a lot. So now men maybe though maybe their body could hear it again sometime.
00:12:04:20 - 00:12:24:18
Dr. Peter Salerno
So when you hear it again and again and again and then one day, in a weird indirect, passive way, then all of a sudden you hear like something related to you don't look that great or that's not that appealing on you. It like stops you in your tracks and it causes your brain to do like something it's not designed to do, which is I predicted, predicted, predicted, received, received, received.
00:12:24:18 - 00:12:43:22
Dr. Peter Salerno
It was consistent, consistent, consistent. And now boom. It's like a car wreck in your head. Like where did that come from? What do you mean this one doesn't cut it. And this is all on, you know, happening in milliseconds. You know, unconscious process. And it can really create this, it's almost like, makes you delirious, like you all of a sudden get this motion sickness of, like, whoa, what?
00:12:44:02 - 00:13:03:02
Dr. Peter Salerno
What happened? Right now? It that works because they have done it enough times to reinforce that you can rely on the consistent, you know, information. And then they all of a sudden pull the rug and your reality confidence can't survive in a cycle like that. I don't know if that exactly answers your original question, but.
00:13:03:07 - 00:13:24:18
Lisa Sonni
I think it did. Absolutely. I can see how we kind of connect, like self abandonment and safety in this process. You know, like said, you're trying to give up things that might matter to you, like the compliments that were coming your way. At one point you're like, okay, I'm going to let go of that or try to earn it back. and change things, you know, change the way you dress, the way you look.
00:13:24:23 - 00:13:43:14
Dr. Peter Salerno
So then you become accommodating in, in sadly, in a pathological way, meaning it's outside the bounds of, of, appropriate level of, of accommodation. It's like now you've gone over, you've been forced to your system has been forced to now over function and over accommodate. well, you're forced to abandon those things, in a lot of ways because you're subjugated.
00:13:43:14 - 00:14:02:03
Dr. Peter Salerno
So every one of those things is now taking away your subjectivity. Right. That's what they're trying to do, is you become an object. You no longer are someone to be admired for this. That's taken away. This is taken away. And then you're forced to function in that smaller world. Like, that's not something I can ask for. That's not something I can expect.
00:14:02:03 - 00:14:21:07
Dr. Peter Salerno
Okay. I'm going to shift. I have to adapt to that. A lot of this is not conscious until like, much later. Like you're not aware that it's being maneuvered in this way because you keep thinking underneath all of the conflict and sometimes weird feelings and sometimes gut instincts that don't add up to me. He's cooperating to make this work.
00:14:21:12 - 00:14:36:00
Dr. Peter Salerno
So if you hold on to that original prior belief that this is a cooperative person, so these must be misunderstandings, or I must be too sensitive or nobody should expect to hear that every day from someone you know. You're only supposed to hear that in the honeymoon phase. All that justification and stuff.
00:14:36:06 - 00:14:55:07
Lisa Sonni
I so agree, you know, when I, I'm thinking back to, I wish, I hate this book, I have a podcast episode actually from a few seasons ago about how much I hate the book, The Five Love Languages, but I remember introducing the topic of the five Love Languages and Words of Affirmation was my top one, but I actually scored high in all except gifts.
00:14:55:12 - 00:15:17:02
Lisa Sonni
And I remember in the book it says something to the effect of like, you're really easy to love when you have lots of love languages, because your partner can do all kinds of things that make you feel good. But for some reason he was like hyper fixated on the words of affirmation. And even though I had always been that way and he was actually very, you know, free with compliments in the beginning, suddenly it was like, God, you always need somebody gassing you up.
00:15:17:02 - 00:15:44:03
Lisa Sonni
You always need words. You always need to be told how you look and how you are. God, you're so self-involved. And it's like, what on earth are you talking about? I also like quality time, and I also like. But anyway, I hate the book. That's a whole other topic, but I hated how what at one point was this great thing about me that he was happy to do without any conversation, and then suddenly it was like the most disgusting thing that you need this and you're it's like, everybody has needs.
00:15:44:03 - 00:15:48:05
Lisa Sonni
You're mad that I exist. And that's what I should have been up on back then.
00:15:48:11 - 00:16:05:14
Dr. Peter Salerno
Well, everything is weaponized. So, you know, anything that they're going to use now is going to be weaponized later and then there. And so in a lot of ways they feel like, I mean, this is what they're motivated to do. Just like you're motivated to try to explain yourself and work things out and connect and repair. They're motivated to do, you know, just the opposite.
00:16:05:18 - 00:16:18:21
Dr. Peter Salerno
But they're not telling you that. It's almost like that's one of the biggest problems is, you know, if if they would say, I have a tendency to be very combative and I say no, even when I should say yes. And sometimes I like even when it's more convenient for me to tell the truth. I mean, that would almost be refreshing.
00:16:18:21 - 00:16:35:22
Dr. Peter Salerno
It's like, okay, well, maybe we could be friends and I'm just going to watch my back. But this other covert stuff is just so. And it's the insidious covert nature of of it where you feel like you can let your guard down here because this is just something someone does, and then all of a sudden, boom, nope, that's not okay anymore.
00:16:35:22 - 00:16:38:18
Dr. Peter Salerno
And you're just you're left spinning. I that feeling
00:16:38:18 - 00:16:59:16
Lisa Sonni
so disorienting. Actually, you touched on something, though. I feel like strong women solve problems. I am a problem solver. I was known for that. I was recruited from all these high end jobs because I was a person who was known for solving problems, figuring out what the issue is, creating systems like. That's me. And so many women are this, you know, I'm kind of quoting Terry Cole and
00:16:59:16 - 00:17:19:04
Lisa Sonni
it's like high functioning codependent where you're like a fixer and a problem solver and but if we do that, if we reflect and we take accountability and we're the type that adjusts. And that's great for men like this, right? Because we don't leave men like this, we go inward and we say, what have I done? What can I do?
00:17:19:04 - 00:17:25:08
Lisa Sonni
How can I fix this? And in a normal relationship, that's a great quality, but not with someone who's pathological.
00:17:25:09 - 00:17:42:20
Dr. Peter Salerno
Yeah. And not someone who's going to exploit it. Because when you over function, they turn that into an expectation or like a demand, not something that they're going to reciprocate, you know, and meet you halfway. So your your cup is continuously getting empty and things like that. So it takes a lot of strength to survive a relationship like this.
00:17:42:20 - 00:18:00:12
Dr. Peter Salerno
It really has nothing to do with weakness at all. It has to do with, you know, resilience and, problem solving capacity and, you know, all of those things you said the willingness to look inward and self-reflect. I mean, those things are actually great qualities. But if you were the only one doing it in a in a dynamic, it's exhausting. And it gets used against you.
00:18:00:15 - 00:18:16:08
Lisa Sonni
that's the worst part. And I feel like, listen, we have this vision of abusive men, right? They're like loud and they overpower you. Many are quite covert. They don't have to overpower you. They condition you to sound correct in some capacity. So you just learn... You don't even know that you're learning.
00:18:16:12 - 00:18:38:17
Dr. Peter Salerno
That's a really important concept is it's not always. And especially when we're talking about men, there's sometimes is this assumption that there's this, overt formidability, like this, like dominance and intimidation, and they're coercing you because just by their presence and oftentimes, no, their presence can actually seem very benign and harmless. But the way they maneuver relationships and things is extremely, like, malignant.
00:18:38:17 - 00:19:07:08
Dr. Peter Salerno
And so maybe you're not even physically intimidated by them in any way. But there's you still need to watch out for that. And, you know, one example of that is the expression of the trait can vary, but the trait is still very malignant. And so and I mean, just as an example, you know, in a relationship that I was in, previously, I had this conversation with my ex where she said someone was making her really uncomfortable at work, the way that he was looking at her, like, he's cool and like, we chat, you know, we're chat and whatever, but, like, we're okay.
00:19:07:08 - 00:19:22:06
Dr. Peter Salerno
But I feel like the way he looks at me lingers a little bit and it makes me a bit uncomfortable. And I just said, okay, well, I mean, if it's an issue, you know, eventually either, you know, confront him and if he doesn't listen, tell someone higher up and see, you know, if he can get because that's not cool.
00:19:22:06 - 00:19:39:00
Dr. Peter Salerno
That's not going to that's going to affect your focus. And it's just something, you know, just a random thing. I thought it was just a random innocent share, you know, a couple months later, we're sitting around and, the phone rings, her phone rings, and she picks it up immediately, all like, bubbly and, you know, hi, Jason. And, and,
00:19:39:02 - 00:19:58:09
Dr. Peter Salerno
I'm like, I'm on the couch, and I'm like, And the only Jason I know is the one that she told me was making her uncomfortable. So, you know, I just connected the dots. And then after the phone call, I said was, who? Who's who's Jason again? Oh, you know, from work I go, oh, oh, okay. Well, last time you talked to me about it, it sounded like there was some issues with him making you uncomfortable now.
00:19:58:09 - 00:20:16:15
Dr. Peter Salerno
And what are you talking about? We're cool. So that started this thing where then he would come up and then it's turned into. They were hanging out together and having drinks after work and things like that. And the more I inquired, the more the jealousy narrative was being set up. Because it looked on the outside like I kept inquiring in a very controlling way.
00:20:16:19 - 00:20:38:02
Dr. Peter Salerno
No one knew the prior data, that there was this massive contradiction, like, why are you getting closer to this person that you said made you uncomfortable? I don't care if he's a friend. You said it was a threat or you presented him as a threat. Right? It got to the point where it was like she turned it into, I'm starting to have anxiety at work because I'm afraid to go to work, because I'm afraid you're going to be mad because Jason's there.
00:20:38:02 - 00:21:00:00
Dr. Peter Salerno
I mean, it was this. And for someone to say this wasn't patterned, strategic, choreographed from the beginning, that it's a defensive reaction. This is fully conscious seeds planted at every step to to dismantle my confidence. I mean, so and I just use that as an example because there was never a voice being raised. There was never even a conflict.
00:21:00:00 - 00:21:19:03
Dr. Peter Salerno
It was just I was just being more inquisitive because I was getting less information. It didn't even get to the point where, I mean, eventually it did get to the point where it was like, you know, you need help. You're crazy, you're paranoid. But it didn't even have to get there yet. it just escalated to a little bit of confusion that turned into, oh, well, now I'm afraid to go to work.
00:21:19:03 - 00:21:37:06
Dr. Peter Salerno
It's affecting my where, I mean, and then you think, wow, maybe I'm overbearing. I mean, why did I ask so many times? So they did you do the work for them, right. And that's the point that I want everyone to hear is you start doing the work for them. You start seeing your reality from, you know, the mirror they want you to hold up versus the one that you came into the relationship with.
00:21:37:06 - 00:21:54:10
Dr. Peter Salerno
And it starts with those subtleties that can spend months. I mean, that whole little con that I mentioned that took months for, for the full plan to unfold. And it worked swimmingly. I mean, I, I dove right into it because I wasn't suspecting there was any possibility it could have been non collaborative or it could have been antagonistic.
00:21:54:10 - 00:22:01:00
Dr. Peter Salerno
I you don't think that way when you're looking at the person you care about and think, they have my best interest at heart. I must be crazy, you know. Right.
00:22:01:04 - 00:22:20:11
Lisa Sonni
That's actually the hardest part. You know, like I feel like what people don't understand unless you've been through it, is how trust and dependency gets built. Early on so that all the crazy crap that happens in these relationships, you just don't see it, or you kind of see it because I know people say, like, you saw the red flags because they didn't seem red to me.
00:22:20:11 - 00:22:31:08
Lisa Sonni
I don't know, it's you. Things make sense. You can rationalize, but it's because they've conditioned you to see things differently. You know, to question the self. Abandonment just ramps up totally.
00:22:31:08 - 00:22:49:13
Dr. Peter Salerno
And the red flags are very disguised. They're camouflaged. So yeah, it's hard sometimes if there's an incongruent feeling with it, sometimes you can feel something in your gut that that's off, but your thoughts are seeing that it's a green flag. Other times you see that it's a red flag, but then your thoughts and feelings are telling you that it's a green.
00:22:49:13 - 00:23:09:19
Dr. Peter Salerno
So, I mean, and they know this, I think it's they're not like these experts of human nature. They're just really they've tried all these things so often. They've kept the things that that worked. And they have this little toolkit, this psychological toolkit of, you know, tactics that normal human beings aren't going to be on the lookout for because, you know, you're assuming collaboration. And.
00:23:09:19 - 00:23:28:01
Lisa Sonni
assuming that they're they're doing, doing right by you and doing right by the relationship. But one thing that is just so prevalent in these types is the way that they always make you the problem, right? Like lack of accountability is just, to me, top of the list of of how they do, how they erode you in these relationships and never take any responsibility.
00:23:28:01 - 00:23:48:20
Lisa Sonni
It's always you. You're the problem. And I can see that in the story that you even told. It's like you're the problem. Even in what I shared, right? It's my need, my existence, my need for anything was the problem. And it doesn't always have to be explosive, right? It's like little micro corrections, commenting on your tone, nagging. You know, you're overreacting.
00:23:48:20 - 00:24:07:08
Lisa Sonni
That's not what I meant. All the gaslighting stuff, but it's nothing that you can prove, right is everything has kind of, I don't know, blanketed in plausible deniability. I didn't mean anything. You're taking it the wrong way. It's just Jason, right? No big deal. Yeah, but if you don't trust yourself, you can't leave, right? Because you could be wrong. Like, what if the problem is you
00:24:07:08 - 00:24:16:13
Lisa Sonni
and then you leave this man and it's your fault and you're the drama, right? So I feel like we stay as we try to figure out what's really going on. Yes.
00:24:16:15 - 00:24:42:01
Dr. Peter Salerno
so you mentioned earlier particularly strong women. You're a problem solving machine in a way, an operating system that wants things to work out for everyone, and so you're going to keep going back to the drawing board to sort this out. That's another thing that keeps you hooked is the inability to resolve it on your own. Whether you want to stay in or out keeps you in, too, because they're you're stuck in that ambiguity, right?
00:24:42:06 - 00:25:01:04
Dr. Peter Salerno
For things to really converge, something needs to tilt enough to one side. And so they keep throwing in these, these crumbs of confusion that once you start settling on something, you doubt yourself. You know, once again, I think that they start to get really good at knowing when they need to for the intermittent reinforcement, you know, lever or switch,
00:25:01:08 - 00:25:23:12
Dr. Peter Salerno
there can be a time where if they flood you with a particular type of attention, it'll hit and land just right, just enough to hook you in. And, I think also it's important for people to realize there's a difference between being addicted to something or having this compulsion for something and then, someone installing something in you that that controls how you think and feel and what you believe.
00:25:23:16 - 00:25:50:16
Dr. Peter Salerno
Because a lot of people like in this too, like an addiction or codependency and things like that. And the difference is, when we're talking about like a substance, the substance isn't actually manipulating you. It's telling you exactly what it is and you're taking it and you know exactly what to expect from it because you've done it before. So there's this compulsive behavior where maybe you can't stop even if you want it to, but you're not confused because you know exactly what the chemical reaction is, is with this.
00:25:50:16 - 00:26:09:02
Dr. Peter Salerno
There's a chemical hijacking. And so you really don't know what is happening or not. And so you can't move forward. So it's it's not that people aren't strong enough to get out, it's that even if the decisions made, you're still immobilized in a way where you can't just walk away from it or like, quit cold turkey. That's not how this works.
00:26:09:04 - 00:26:26:06
Lisa Sonni
I wish all of these animal trauma bonds specifically are likened to addiction. But I, you know, this this is key. And I you talk about this in traumatic cognitive dissonance. Write your book. But the way that somebody is installing this in you, I, I that is a really important piece here. It's not just like, why don't you get it?
00:26:26:08 - 00:26:49:11
Lisa Sonni
There's a reason this is all happening at the same time. Now, you mentioned intermittent reinforcement. I am really big on making sure people understand that the kindness that happens in an abusive relationship is part of the cycle, right? The good exists to facilitate the bad. It's what makes you tolerate. So how does it. Well, first of all, let's let's back up what is intermittent reinforcement for people that might not know that term.
00:26:49:12 - 00:27:06:13
Dr. Peter Salerno
I use an analogy, like the slot machine effect is what it's often called. Okay. So you're on a slot machine, I'll just say an old school slot machine. So you're putting coins in, and you're pulling the thing, and, you know, you, you invest in it once and, you know, it's a small investment, so no harm, no foul,
00:27:06:13 - 00:27:25:19
Dr. Peter Salerno
you lose it. No, no reason to stop now because you're not in any danger zone. And you intended to do this, right? So you showed up. So you have this amount of stuff you can invest, and then it gives you a little back and you're surprised by that instead of just taking it and walking away, typically what happens is you're curious enough to want to know if that can repeat, because that was the goal to begin with.
00:27:25:19 - 00:27:54:12
Dr. Peter Salerno
So now it's like, oh, there's evidence that the goal is being achieved. Maybe I'll stick around in your brain wants prediction, so it wants to see if this is going to produce something. But obviously you can see where the analogy is going to go. Typically what happens is some people can't walk away even when they really, really need to because of the intermittent reinforcement of some gains and then some losses at very strategic points of vulnerability to even the, I think, the algorithm of a slot machine might know to a degree,
00:27:54:12 - 00:28:15:06
Dr. Peter Salerno
I don't know if when people typically will get exhausted, it would get to the point where they will no longer think too much about putting more in, who knows? Maybe it's just all random, but, it's not random. This this formula or this this tactic is not random in these contexts. it's very contained and strategic by the person who's doing it.
00:28:15:09 - 00:28:35:00
Dr. Peter Salerno
So they're, they're intermittently giving you things that feel rewarding, that would make you want to connect to more, that would make you want to disarm. And then they're also intermittently like, pulling the rug underneath you and then they're giving you a little bit more of the good. And so you see that, and then your mind obviously, it wants to tilt in favor of the thing that feels better.
00:28:35:00 - 00:28:40:03
Dr. Peter Salerno
So it's going to keep seeking that out. And that's how that's essentially how the conditioning can work.
00:28:40:04 - 00:29:01:09
Lisa Sonni
You know, funny, because we're both Italian. I use the, I use like a bread analogy a lot because you get like a fresh loaf of Italian bread and you love it and it's so great. And then you get a little bit less, but you're like, okay, you know, all right. Eventually you're sitting here with a plate of little bread crumbs, and those are the best bread crumbs you've ever had in your whole life because you're starving.
00:29:01:12 - 00:29:20:19
Lisa Sonni
So when you get little crumbs of compliments or kindness or warmth or and I don't even find what's really a big piss off to me is that we talk about these relationships like the highs and the lows. There's this middle ground of it's not abuse and it's not love bombing. It's not bread crumbs necessarily. It's like the absence of abuse.
00:29:21:00 - 00:29:35:07
Lisa Sonni
And that can be the reward is just that. It's not particularly awful today. You know, things have been so good lately. Yeah. He didn't scream at you for two weeks. But that's neutral. That's not good. But we see it as good because it's better than abuse.
00:29:35:12 - 00:29:57:23
Dr. Peter Salerno
Yeah. And that's part of that is the self-justification process. Where to survive this you have to try to make a decision on something. So you start, you know, lowering your standards and, and you know, minimizing things and, maximizing inflating other things that's all part of the process of you just trying to negotiate with yourself and make sense of all of the dissonance, make sense of all of the confusion.
00:29:58:01 - 00:30:15:22
Lisa Sonni
None of it makes sense. I mean, it does work on the outside, but I think we both know, like when you're in it, man, it feels confusing is not really the right word. But there's this process to how everything kind of flips. And I think because women in particular, I know it's not specifically women, but we are so good at like flipping this.
00:30:16:04 - 00:30:37:22
Lisa Sonni
You know, I've read studies that talk about how women are much more inclined to look inward than men as a collective. And I find that kind of fascinating here, because there's this flip where you're managing your self and you're worried about how you look and what you say and what you do. And he comes home and you're managing him even a little bit, but you're not evaluating him.
00:30:37:22 - 00:31:09:05
Lisa Sonni
You're not stepping back and looking at the pattern. You're just kind of changing yourself. And to me, like, this is the moment where everything locks in. You're avoiding topics and anticipating things. And, maybe he's giving you some kind of positive reinforcement that this is how you're supposed to be. But when you don't assess the relationship anymore, like you're lost, What's really happening when women find themselves assessing themselves and managing themselves, instead of stepping back and really looking at what's going on in this relationship?
00:31:09:07 - 00:31:32:02
Dr. Peter Salerno
Part of that is the person with the disorder is is externalizing, and then the person who's receiving it, typically if they're trying to problem solve their in, they internalize. And so it's all becoming as if the design is to get the other person, the victim, to look inward at what is going wrong there. And then mistaking it for originating in themselves.
00:31:32:02 - 00:31:51:05
Dr. Peter Salerno
And so that's where you get a lot of the, a lot of people say it's projection. I don't like to use the term projection because it implies that there's it's a defense, and it implies that there's something that's intolerable or uncomfortable in that person. They're trying to rid themselves of it. So they projected out onto you and relate to you as if it's coming from you, because it's intolerable.
00:31:51:08 - 00:32:17:11
Dr. Peter Salerno
I don't think that's always what these people are doing. I think it's completely tolerable, but they're externalizing it so that you are the one to blame, because it's more convenient for it to be you than them. I don't think it's because they have to necessarily rid themselves of it. but that's how the process works, is they're externalizing everything you're internalizing everything, and then eventually what happens is you start mistaking it from originating in you, from all the gaslighting, in the reality distortion.
00:32:17:11 - 00:32:42:00
Dr. Peter Salerno
So what was outside of you now becomes as if it's like happening inside of you. You feel crazy for that, but then you also start taking more and more responsibility self-criticism, self-blame, self-doubt, self-reflecting, analyzing yourself, starting to look at the problems as something that can be solved in a unilateral way. But it has to be coming. You like my fixing this will fix all of that.
00:32:42:02 - 00:32:45:10
Lisa Sonni
Women describe this as working on the relationship.
00:32:45:14 - 00:32:46:06
Dr. Peter Salerno
Yes.
00:32:46:06 - 00:33:03:12
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. They're not though. Right. Like we're working on assessing him and figuring out how to get him to be the man we thought he was. And and sometimes it works. I think that's the hardest part is like, he'll let you think that, well, some of this is actually going to be successful, like I'm trying or he's not.
00:33:03:14 - 00:33:32:16
Dr. Peter Salerno
And so you're working it out or trying to work it out, but he's just sticking it out and just sort of like, you know, letting you like imagine like this is the goal. And then obviously moving it. And like this is where you need to be. Okay. That's not enough work. You got to go do more work. I mean it's never really going to it's never really going to end or come to completion. The work you have to do for this person. But, that's the goal is, is to get you a completely subjugated, brought under the control of them.
00:33:32:16 - 00:33:45:12
Dr. Peter Salerno
And the only way you can do that is if you keep tweaking yourself according to whatever their ideal is in that moment, you know? And that can shift too, which can be confusing. You can think that you accommodated everything they wanted, and then all of a sudden it fell short.
00:33:45:15 - 00:34:03:13
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, it's unreadable standards. It's. Yeah. And I mean, even that like as a person who values success and I find myself ambitious and again strong and all these things, I can solve this. It's like I'm just going to keep trying. There's no point where someone says, you know what, I give up. And there's a lot of reasons for that.
00:34:03:13 - 00:34:21:14
Lisa Sonni
Which, again, could be a whole episode on its own, but the sunken cost and just the feelings of having failed all. Well, undoubtedly this man is telling you that you're failing you. You're abandoning him. You're you're the problem. It's just constantly pushing it at you. And you don't want to be a failure because you don't see yourself that way.
00:34:21:19 - 00:34:22:12
Lisa Sonni
Right? It makes
00:34:22:12 - 00:34:23:15
Dr. Peter Salerno
sense. Exactly.
00:34:23:18 - 00:34:45:20
Lisa Sonni
Now, why do some women kind of end up here? I think that there's this, this belief of, like, women pick these men. I genuinely believe it is far more abusers pick their victims. Having said that, there is conditioning that happens really early on for a lot of people that sort of lead them down this path. And I don't mean like a you were broken before him.
00:34:45:20 - 00:35:05:07
Lisa Sonni
You've always been broken. This is your fault, because that's gross. I don't believe that at all. But like the taught to keep the peace, the be understanding, be forgiving. You know, it feels familiar for a lot of people. What do you think goes on in some people's childhoods or a family of origin that kind of lead them into thinking that some of this is normal?
00:35:05:12 - 00:35:31:13
Dr. Peter Salerno
Well, I think temperamentally people who, are more, sensitive in the sense that they're more like emotionally aware and attuned to others. I think they generally are just more, inviting. And so I'm not saying that you're inviting the bad in. You're just inviting connection in. And then, some people will exploit that sensitivity. So, I think there are people that are just prone to being, kind and friendly and inviting, and there's nothing wrong with that.
00:35:31:13 - 00:35:50:15
Dr. Peter Salerno
So there's just that the reality of from a practical perspective, if you're a predator and someone is inviting, you can exploit that. It's pretty overtly easy to do. I don't believe, though, because so many people get, you know, into these terrible situations without a history of personal adversity. Like they went they had a stable, nurturing childhood. It was good enough.
00:35:50:15 - 00:36:13:17
Dr. Peter Salerno
And they don't have trauma wounds that that are interfering in their life. Those people get, you know, sucker punched and hijacked, too. So it's what I like to say is there's really no particular type of baggage or attachment rupture or trauma that you could have that makes you, develop this like magnetic fold toward or to pull them into your orbit.
00:36:13:17 - 00:36:33:15
Dr. Peter Salerno
I don't think it really works that way. I think what happens is these people are really good at knowing from one interaction or two, how they can relate to you so that they can exploit you not based on your wounds, just based on your personality in general. I think they just they have tricks for every for every, you know, tactics for every type.
00:36:33:19 - 00:36:59:08
Dr. Peter Salerno
I do think, though, that people can develop internal representations of their relationships from childhood, and they can develop relational styles that they're probably going to bring with them into adulthood. And if one of those happens to be overly accommodating, for example, or like people pleasing, then if you find yourself, you know, relating to a, like a highly narcissistic person, eventually that's going to be like severely exploited.
00:36:59:08 - 00:37:18:09
Dr. Peter Salerno
And so my suggestion would be don't change that in you, but safeguard who you offer that to be a little bit more careful. Don't universally be, you know, people pleasing. Like if you have a tendency to be a people pleaser because of your childhood. People please, with people who will meet you halfway and and nurture that rather than exploit it.
00:37:18:12 - 00:37:33:00
Lisa Sonni
I know, I mean, there's a big mess. I feel like that. It's like broken women and women who come from abusive households. And I know Sandra Brown has done some work on highlighting that that's not the case. And I'm I'm glad to know that because I have to admit, I was like, I wasn't abused as a child.
00:37:33:00 - 00:37:56:16
Lisa Sonni
I didn't have a bad childhood. Yeah. I mean, we all have things that happened, but, you know, it never clicked to me. It never made sense. But that belief that women who get in these relationships have been abused in childhood, or they were severely neglected or traumatized in some way, it's just crap. I actually think more, more so it's strong, empathetic, loyal, agreeable, ambitious, kind.
00:37:56:19 - 00:38:09:04
Lisa Sonni
And then these qualities are exploited and the goal is not to go, okay, well, I'm not going to be any of those things. It's to safeguard who you give access to. I love that you worded it that way. That's perfect. That is exactly what we need to do.
00:38:09:06 - 00:38:32:22
Dr. Peter Salerno
Even all those qualities, you just mentioned historically have been considered weaknesses, not strengths. You know, kindness, empathy, like we even when you hear that, it, you know, in a, in a weird way, those are in a, in a sort of a sexist way. Those are like female traits. Those are feminine sensitive traits. Those are actually you have to be very confident in how you use those things. And they're very empowering. And,
00:38:32:22 - 00:38:52:02
Dr. Peter Salerno
and it takes, it takes strength to be like accommodating and, agreeable and things like that. You know, it requires flexibility and understanding which are like, you know, vitally important for social cooperation and things like that. So, I think also reframing what those traits mean, it's not like these are the strong traits and these are the weak traits.
00:38:52:02 - 00:38:59:11
Dr. Peter Salerno
No, those are like superpowers. They just can't be give you don't give your super power to, you know, the villain. Yeah. Otherwise they're going to kill you with it.
00:38:59:15 - 00:39:15:01
Lisa Sonni
Why do you think some of the when there is maybe a little bit of inconsistency or people pleasing conditioning from childhood, why do you think that feels like compatibility when they see that in an adult relationship, like familiarity feels like compatibility sometimes?
00:39:15:01 - 00:39:35:01
Dr. Peter Salerno
Well, yeah, familiarity breeds, comfort, even if it, you know, breeds contempt. You could actually hate the style, but the comfort of it feeling familiar. And then you're our brains and our nervous systems are a prediction machine. We want to know the outcome. So even if it's a bad outcome, a lot of people, their nervous system, tries to fight for the bad outcome.
00:39:35:01 - 00:39:42:03
Dr. Peter Salerno
That's familiar, even rather than a possible good outcome that's novel or unfamiliar. So there's that going on as well. that
00:39:42:03 - 00:40:01:22
Lisa Sonni
all of this is just so brutal. You know, how strong women end up in relationships like this and then struggle to get out of relationships like this? The the healing part of this, you know, once once you find yourself out or even if you're not out getting out of this is is certainly not, an easy task. But both you and I help people do this every day.
00:40:01:22 - 00:40:23:18
Lisa Sonni
But the part that I really want people to hear is that you're not weak. And I think that's the biggest myth. You know, women who stay because they are conditioned and sort of, like, built slowly over time to not actually see what's happening. You get trained out of yourself and conditioned out of yourself. And so the work obviously in leaving a relationship like this, okay, some women have done that.
00:40:23:18 - 00:40:48:00
Lisa Sonni
Great. But the actual work is coming back to yourself and maybe building even a stronger version than, than even existed before that. Stronger than before. But I it's just really important. And I want people to kind of hear about something that you and I are working on, which is a workshop weekend in June 2026 called unbreakable. And Irreplaceable From Survival to Self-respect.
00:40:48:04 - 00:41:02:18
Lisa Sonni
You and I host groups online, Rise and Rebuild and the Trauma Bond Recovery Program. But can I ask you to talk a little bit about unbreakable and Irreplaceable and kind of how we're going to help people rebuild themselves and confidence and self-respect that weekend?
00:41:02:23 - 00:41:20:00
Dr. Peter Salerno
Yeah. Well, so we did our first event last year and it was a success. So we decided we were going to bring it back. And I mean, I can't, I, I don't really know how to sum up just how powerful that weekend was, because all the all the feedback that we received, I was grateful for it because we we intended on it.
00:41:20:00 - 00:41:48:07
Dr. Peter Salerno
And but you, you know, you never know. But it seemed to deliver a very powerful and meaningful message and experience for for everyone who attended. But I think one. You really can't beat the in-person component. I think that's something the community of women that showed up and and that in-person interaction, I think is just, you know, invaluable. So there's there's just that, but there's just something about finding a community that is, inherently validating, inherently understanding.
00:41:48:07 - 00:42:15:00
Dr. Peter Salerno
You don't have to do any explaining, convincing, apologizing, going into an environment like that. And then, the tools that that you and I bring, that have proven successful. And so we're bringing them back because, you know, we're repeating the things that work, all of that. And, just the, the intensity of the, experience with the atmosphere and everything, I don't know, I just, I feel like it's, last year, I described it as like, like you get, like one year of therapy, healing, you know, within the weekend.
00:42:15:00 - 00:42:32:16
Dr. Peter Salerno
And that's, that's really kind of what we're doing. We're kind of jam packing it with in a good way with all of the, the things that work and then add the community element to that and, and the experience of just honoring yourself and treating yourself to the, to the weekends, you know, the travel and and all of that, all that entails.
00:42:32:20 - 00:42:34:02
Dr. Peter Salerno
It's a really powerful thing.
00:42:34:02 - 00:42:54:18
Lisa Sonni
I'm really excited for it. I know, you know, so many women that have attended our workshops have had this like, moment. And I think the key thing here is that you can watch a million YouTube videos and podcast and read books and all the things, but there's something about being there in person, learning and integrating it, and being able to ask questions and witness other women's healing.
00:42:54:18 - 00:43:16:04
Lisa Sonni
That's so inspiring. So all you need is a passport to just, you know, fly to Toronto, Canada for this particular one and join Doctor Salerno. And I at Unbreakable and Irreplaceable, from survival to self-respect. If this conversation that we had today just kind of hits you, that is where we're going to be taking things a lot deeper. So I invite everybody to join us there.
00:43:16:04 - 00:43:21:12
Lisa Sonni
But any any kind of final words on this topic, you know, the message to the strong women who are listening. I
00:43:21:12 - 00:43:46:11
Dr. Peter Salerno
think just continue reality testing, in the sense that this has nothing to do with weakness or inferiority or even insecurity. It's not about it's the foundation of the relationship is insecure because it was based on deception. But that's not your insecurity. So, there's really nothing, It's just there's nothing that can be said about or more than no one's choosing to stay in these dynamics.
00:43:46:15 - 00:43:53:06
Dr. Peter Salerno
There's a there's a hijacking that's taking place. And so no matter how strong you are, you know, there's just we're not immune to that.
00:43:53:08 - 00:43:58:01
Lisa Sonni
an important message. Thank you so much for being here and for this conversation. Yeah.
00:43:58:05 - 00:43:59:18
Dr. Peter Salerno
Thanks for having me.
00:43:59:20 - 00:44:09:06
Lisa Sonni
If this episode gave you clarity. Share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember, you're stronger than before.
00:44:09:07 - 00:44:13:12
Music
Stronger than before.