If He Acts Like This About Sex, It's Abuse | Best Of Relationships Uncensored | S3E16

"Physical touch is his love language." "If you loved him, you'd just do it." "If you were having more sex with him, maybe he wouldn't cheat." 

You've heard these. Maybe you've even believed them. These aren't relationship truths. They're the exact language used to override your instincts and make you question what you already know. 

In this Best Of episode, Lisa brings together the most powerful moments from her conversations with Dr. Danielle Kramer, Dr. Kate Balestrieri, and Nat LaJune, four voices, four perspectives, all pointing to the same truth: sexual entitlement inside a committed relationship is coercion. 

Coercion is abuse. If your bedroom feels like an obligation instead of a connection, that's not a you problem. When someone believes your body is something they're owed, intimacy doesn't just suffer, it dies. And it's being killed on purpose. 

Your feelings matter. Your discomfort matters. Your no matters. 

Links to the full episodes with Dr. Danielle Kramer, Dr. Kate Balestrieri, and Nat LaJune are below.

Join Lisa Sonni & Dr. Peter Salerno in Boston, MA November 13-15, 2026 here: https://lisasonni.com/unbreakable-and-irreplaceable/

Transcript

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00:00:17:20 - 00:00:43:13
Lisa Sonni
I constantly hear women say the same things about their relationships over and over again, right? Men need sex. Physical touch is his love language. If you were having more sex with him, then maybe he wouldn't cheat. If you loved him, maybe you would just do it right. And these ideas are honestly just everywhere. They're so normalized. And so many women are just questioning themselves when something feels really wrong in their relationships.

00:00:43:13 - 00:01:08:07
Lisa Sonni
But the truth is, when you kind of step back and you actually listen to the experts who study this stuff, you see something really come together. So between seasons of my podcast, I wanted to bring together some of the most important conversations that I've had around this topic. Sexual entitlement and coercion. And you're going to hear from Doctor Danielle Kramer, Doctor Kate Balestrieri, Nat La June, and even a little bit for me.

00:01:08:11 - 00:01:29:14
Lisa Sonni
These are four different conversations for different perspectives, but they're all pointing to the same kind of underlying issue, right. Sexual entitlement and coercion inside committed relationships. So in this episode, you're going to hear some of the most powerful moments from these conversations all together in one place. Let's get into it.

00:01:29:16 - 00:01:49:00
Lisa Sonni
There are a lot of guys that seem to think that sex is just part of the relationship, right? It's built in, it's automatic. It doesn't matter how they treat you. It's just meant for you to give it to them, right? Sexual entitlement is literally the belief that your body is just included. It's part of some relationship contract, right?

00:01:49:01 - 00:02:12:15
Lisa Sonni
Your availability lives on standby. This doesn't matter if these mean to you. Rude to you. Cruel. If you have a headache, if you're in the mood. None of this matters. Because he has needs. And if you're not meeting them, you're failing. This is a very difficult thing that a lot of women are facing. This there's there's a mindset of these men that it is owed and that they're entitled to it.

00:02:12:19 - 00:02:41:08
Lisa Sonni
And it's really not that surprising to me. Now, obviously, I understand that sex is generally part of an agreement when you're in a relationship, generally speaking, but basic human decency and kindness are also part of that agreement. And I don't know when these two things broke apart. This really isn't about different libidos and different sex drives. And somebody feeling disappointed sometimes and a little bit of rejection or two people wanting different things.

00:02:41:09 - 00:03:02:09
Lisa Sonni
That's not what this is. This is a conversation about why a woman would not desire someone who is coercing her, and who is acting completely entitled. You have somebody that is angry or begging or yelling or tracking the frequency on a calendar like a crazy person.

00:03:02:11 - 00:03:18:03
Lisa Sonni
It is. I think you are so right that that can be hard to hear, because I talk a lot with clients about like, it feels so personal and I think where where my mind went when you said that is, well, they're not going to be cheating on the next person. How come he's not cheating on the new supply?

00:03:18:07 - 00:03:37:16
Lisa Sonni
And it's like that, first of all, you don't know that. And also I would bet that they are because to your point, it was never about you. It's about the perpetrator. If they're doing it, there is some unmet need. Although I just want to highlight and perhaps even frame this as a question. What's with the need for sex?

00:03:37:16 - 00:03:47:07
Lisa Sonni
Because that's what it gets positioned as everything you just said. No psychology B.S. it's just that she's not having enough sex with him. He just needs more sex. That's it.

00:03:47:11 - 00:04:16:03
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
It's bullshit. Human beings do not have a need for sex with another person. We will not die if we do not have sex with another person. So therefore, it is not a need, right? It is a want and certainly do people, benefit from being sexual? Of course, there's so many benefits to sex, but for a lot of men, the need for sex is actually language that that is holding other needs for them that they haven't really been able to articulate to themselves.

00:04:16:07 - 00:04:28:16
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
They want to feel powerful. They want to feel strong. They want to feel desired. They want to feel virile and young. They want to feel something else. And sex has been the.

00:04:28:16 - 00:04:30:12
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
Vehicle that they have.

00:04:30:12 - 00:04:43:22
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
Used to access that feeling. And so they come in. They want to feel masculine. So for a lot of men who really are organized around traditional gender ideology, they want to feel.

00:04:43:22 - 00:04:45:13
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
Potent in their masculinity.

00:04:45:13 - 00:05:09:17
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
Because they want to feel competitive with other men. So the sex that they are seeking is less about I want connection and it's more about I want to prove my masculinity right there. It's it's, sex becomes a stage upon which they are performing masculinity for themselves, for other men. This is all unconscious. Of course, not many men will walk into a room and say, I'm performing my masculinity.

00:05:09:18 - 00:05:30:11
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
So can we have some sex right now? Right. But so here's where here's where sort of this expectation gets dumped in the laps of women, as if women are supposed to shore up men's egos, or they're supposed to shore up their sex, their desire to feel sexually virile and potent and masculine. So a lot of men do put this need on their partner's lap.

00:05:30:11 - 00:05:47:20
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
Like, you should want to have sex with me, because I want you to want to have sex with me. And so I want this to be loud and clear for everyone who's listening. Your partner will not die if they are not having sex with you. And sex is not something that that we are supposed to give to another person.

00:05:47:20 - 00:06:13:18
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
It's not a transaction, it's not a commodity. So sex is something that we co cultivate with another human. If we're having partnered sex or we cultivate in our own bodies, if we're having solo sex and it can be a connective space, a pleasurable space, and emotionally, a beautiful space. And also it can be a vehicle for people to feel things that they want to feel about themselves, kind of separate from that connection with a partner.

00:06:13:18 - 00:06:22:22
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
So no one is entitled to sex with another person, no matter what they might say, and no matter how much they might huff and puff and try to convince you otherwise, that's important.

00:06:23:04 - 00:06:45:02
Lisa Sonni
And for those that don't know, I hosted a webinar called Isn't Sex My Right? And Doctor Kate was on the panel. So if you were interested in hearing more about consent and coercion and that sort of realm of topics, I'm going to tag that in the description in the show notes so people can access that. But, you know, you're hitting on something so important if it's a need.

00:06:45:02 - 00:07:02:07
Lisa Sonni
And so women will feel and frankly, these these men will straight up say, if you were having sex with me x number of times per week, I know it's different for everybody, but let's call it 4 or 3 times per week then I wouldn't. But to your point, yeah, they would because that's not what's really going on.

00:07:02:09 - 00:07:25:19
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
Right. And that's, that's often, a coercive tactic. Right. If only you would if you would do this, then I wouldn't do that. Everyone's responsible for their own behavior. Right. So in fact, in my book, What Happened to My Sex Life? I have a whole chapter on do I have to say yes? And I talk about sexual entitlement and coercion and how this becomes the antithesis to desire.

00:07:25:19 - 00:07:46:19
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
And there's been plenty of research that shows the more sexual entitlement there is in a relationship, the lower the non entitled partners desire is going to be. Why? Because no one wants sex to feel like an obligation. And the more someone's entitled feels entitled to sex with you, the less likely it is that you're going to want it.

00:07:46:19 - 00:07:59:17
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
Because now it feels like work and it's labor, and it's something that is being extracted from you. And that is not sexy no matter how we spin it. Unless that's your kink, of course. But then that's a consensual situation.

00:07:59:17 - 00:07:59:22
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
That's a.

00:07:59:22 - 00:08:33:12
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
Different story. But for a lot of folks who have been socialized to believe that when you partner with someone, especially, if they maybe grew up in more high control religion where they have learned this messaging of when you get married, your sexuality belongs to your partner, right? There can be a lot of deconstructing around that, and there can be a lot of messages in people's community that erroneously support the idea that when you partner with someone, you have to have sex that's a wifely duty or a husband duty or a marriage duty, it's not.

00:08:33:17 - 00:08:37:16
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
And the more you kind of sit with that, the more it starts to feel like an ick.

00:08:37:17 - 00:08:53:03
Lisa Sonni
Like, I just, I, I can't understand, even though I can, I can explain this, but like the thought of, like, I'm not into this, but let's do it anyway. If if she were free enough to say out loud, okay, fine, let's get it over with. Which is what she's thinking in her head. You still want to.

00:08:53:03 - 00:09:12:09
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
Do it right? Like in what is it? A lot of men don't, but they want to be desired. And so their entitlement is like, I want you to desire me. I want you to make me feel better about myself. And sex is the way that I'm convinced you're going to do that, right? I want to be wanted because that means something about me.

00:09:12:12 - 00:09:15:18
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
And the fact that you don't want me is infuriating, and it makes me.

00:09:15:18 - 00:09:16:13
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
Feel helpless.

00:09:16:13 - 00:09:26:06
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
And powerless. So now I'm just going to demand it, or I'm going to guilt you into it so that I can have the illusion of that desire coming in my direction. But when I talk to men.

00:09:26:06 - 00:09:27:10
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
Who have used.

00:09:27:15 - 00:09:28:19
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
Coercive behavior in.

00:09:28:19 - 00:09:29:20
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
Their relationships.

00:09:30:00 - 00:09:48:12
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
Often they don't realize what it is they're really wanting. Most of them know on some level that they are being coercive, but they'll deny it up and down, left and right, because they don't want to see themselves as people who are engaging in that behavior. So there's a lot of shame that prevents them from taking accountability from that.

00:09:48:18 - 00:09:56:06
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
But they know on some level that there's a push and they don't like it. They don't want to have to push their partner. Now, they also aren't doing.

00:09:56:06 - 00:09:57:07
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
Things to cultivate.

00:09:57:07 - 00:10:25:23
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
Desire in a real, authentic way. So for anyone listening who's thinking, oh gosh, I just need to show my partner more love and more care and more desire. No, no, no, only if that's authentic for you. Right. And the the conversation between partners often, if there has been entitlement or coercion first, there needs to be a lot of repair because it's it's near impossible to feel 100% safe with someone if they've been exhibiting entitlement or coercion, sexually or otherwise, in the partnership.

00:10:26:03 - 00:10:43:17
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
So sex may need to be off the table for a while until that safety and that repair is established. If you're going to stay in that relationship. And that's something that the coercive partner needs to figure out how to be okay with on their own without bringing it as a guilting strategy to the partner that they've been coercing.

00:10:43:17 - 00:10:50:16
Dr. Kate Balestrieri
So that's individual work that they need to do separate from the couples share.

00:10:50:18 - 00:11:05:22
Dr. Danielle Kramer
So I think men are something that I talk about often, is we have to look at what our sex education looks like in this country. And that's kind of everyone's foundation. Let's be real, most parents are not talking to their kids about that. And if they are, it's like very bare bones stuff, right?

00:11:05:22 - 00:11:24:13
Dr. Danielle Kramer
It's like, this is how babies are made. And this is something that you'll do later in your life. But don't you dare do it now. And like, it's very, very, like I said, very bare bones and very like we don't talk about consent often to our kids. Not that I see. Anyway. There's good studies that show that, like most kids, by the time they hit college don't know that much about consent.

00:11:24:15 - 00:11:45:07
Dr. Danielle Kramer
They may not know what, like we call Frye's consent, we go based off of fries. Consent is really given reversible, informed, excited and specific. Most of them have never heard of that. Right. So in our country, we teach sex ed from a male pleasure focused standpoint. So we talk about male orgasms and male pleasure, but we don't ever talk about female pleasure.

00:11:45:09 - 00:12:03:15
Dr. Danielle Kramer
And we also talk about it from a standpoint of women being a sexual gatekeeper, which is part of purity culture. And that's also part of this male cohort. And it's normal. So in our schools and our public schools and in our private school, we're generally teaching kids that sexual coercion from men is normal. That's a normal part of men's sexuality.

00:12:03:19 - 00:12:17:02
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Men are going to push their boundaries. They're going to try to convince you to do something you don't want to do. Boys will be boys, right? So it's your job as a woman to say, no, it's your job as a woman to put up boundaries. It's your job as a woman to say, I don't want to do that.

00:12:17:02 - 00:12:35:20
Dr. Danielle Kramer
And he's going to push that. He's going to try to convince you. He's going to say things like, well, if you really loved me, that sexual coercion, he's going to say things like, well, you know, this is how men cheat on their girlfriends. That's sexual coercion. But we teach this as normal. We teach girls, boys, they're going to say these things to you, and that's normal.

00:12:35:21 - 00:12:52:06
Dr. Danielle Kramer
But then boys also hear, well, I can sexually force women. I'm supposed to try it like it's the dominant thing, right? She's going to say no, but it's a game. And if I can get her to say yes, then this carries over into marriages and we all act shocked, like, oh my gosh, I can't believe that he's threatening to cheat on you.

00:12:52:06 - 00:13:07:03
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Oh my gosh, I can't believe that you feel like you have to have sex with your husband every three days, which comes from like a specific evangelical, but not any kind of a real study, that three days idea. But then we can that's the prize, because this is the sexual foundation from which our kids are working off of.

00:13:07:03 - 00:13:08:02
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Right?

00:13:08:04 - 00:13:29:08
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. It really makes so much sense when you put it like that under that framework. Because I'm not a man, I'm a woman. I know what I was taught and that they want it and that they're going to try to get it from you. That's so how I was raised. But if boys are hearing the same thing, then they're hearing maybe inadvertently, maybe not, that that's expected of them to coerce.

00:13:29:08 - 00:13:45:06
Lisa Sonni
Except this is where I find it kind of interesting, because in the rare circumstances that I have regretfully found myself in a conversation with a man on this topic, they seem to feel like it's just persuasion. She said yes. What's the difference between persuasion and coercion?

00:13:45:12 - 00:14:05:18
Dr. Danielle Kramer
So I kind of think of this as response and desire. So we if we think about like the dual control model of sexual desire, one of it is spontaneous desire, like, oh, I want sex, right. And then the other one is response and desire. You have to give me something to respond to, whether that's connection or some form of intimacy or some form of touch.

00:14:05:23 - 00:14:23:07
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Right. Like cuddling on the couch or something like that. So you have to give me something to respond to in order for me to feel sexy, in order for me to, like, get into that sexy space with you. So for me, there's a difference between giving me something to respond to, which is noticing and paying attention to me.

00:14:23:09 - 00:14:45:20
Dr. Danielle Kramer
And then the goal at the end of Responsive Desire is your enthusiastic consent. And I, as your partner and detached from the outcome, I don't have a predetermined outcome I'm trying to get us to. I'm just trying to get us the connection. I'm trying to get you to relax and to exist in this space with me. And if that leads to sexy time, which, yeah, of course I want.

00:14:45:20 - 00:15:03:23
Dr. Danielle Kramer
But your comfort and your yes means more to me than what I want. So I'm not focused on my persuasion, is focused on my needs, and I'm trying to get to my needs no matter how I get there. Right? Giving you something to respond to is focusing on your name. And it's saying, are you comfortable? How do you use feel right now?

00:15:04:04 - 00:15:21:17
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Does this feel good to you? Do do we start? Does I start giving you a back massage? And you're like, actually, I just I don't I just don't want to be touched right now. Okay. No problem at all. Right? Do I back off as soon as I notice that enthusiastic consent is not there, I back off or I check in with you and I say, how are you feeling?

00:15:21:20 - 00:15:39:03
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Do you still feel okay? Do we keep going or do you need me to pull back? Right? Persuasions. I care about my needs and I'm trying to get to a predetermined goal, response and desire. Meeting my partner in their responsive desire is, hey, let's connect and spend this time together, and I'm detached from the outcome. Wherever this goes, it goes.

00:15:39:03 - 00:15:40:00
Dr. Danielle Kramer
And I'm okay with that.

00:15:40:04 - 00:15:47:20
Lisa Sonni
Oh, what a good example. And I can just hear the men. Yeah, but if I do that, then then we'll never have sex. I can just hear it.

00:15:48:00 - 00:16:07:00
Dr. Danielle Kramer
So I hear that often. I hear men say like, well, if I did that, you'd never want to have sex with me. That's probably true in your relationship, because you have set up a system of borjan if I need, in order for me to say yes, I have to feel calm and comfortable and confident that my know will be respected and it will be okay.

00:16:07:00 - 00:16:24:18
Dr. Danielle Kramer
There will be no consequence. I'm not going to get silent treatment. I'm not going to get you pouting. I'm not going to get you guilt for being me. I'm not going to get threats, whether explicit threats or overt threats. Right? Like if I walk away and I'm like, well, this is why some husbands cheat. I'm not directly threatening you, but I am right.

00:16:24:18 - 00:16:45:08
Dr. Danielle Kramer
It's an explicit threat. It's me saying, well, if this continues, I don't know. Right? So if you have set up those conditions in your marriage and your relationship and yeah, that's going to take time and space to heal for both of you, it's going to take you to heal that entitlement and you to give her space. Because the other thing is going back a bit.

00:16:45:12 - 00:17:11:18
Dr. Danielle Kramer
When we set up that sexuality of like, women are gatekeepers and men are the pursuers. Where is the space for my sexuality? Because in that framework, my sexuality only exists in response to his. I don't have my own sexuality, right? Men are the pursuers and I'm the gatekeeper. There's no space for my sexuality. So when you tell me, well, if I back off of all that and I do that, she's never going to have sex with me, that's probably going to be true for a while, right?

00:17:11:21 - 00:17:31:17
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Sometimes in healing, things have to get worse before they get better. But you need to give her space to have her own sexual response, her own sexual desire. You may not even know what that looks like because you've never given her space to express it, but with healing, with her starting to understand that this isn't about coercion, this is about sex that we're going to do together.

00:17:31:18 - 00:17:39:15
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Not something you're going to do to me. And I give you that isn't something done to women, it's something done with women. And when I get I mean, oh.

00:17:39:20 - 00:17:58:09
Lisa Sonni
No, I, I just I agree with you so much because I think that that's, I see this in the comment section so often of like this. If men want sex and women have to give it or not give it. But as you describe the gatekeeper, but they think that they're getting it from women, there's nothing about women's pleasure or women really participating.

00:17:58:09 - 00:18:16:19
Lisa Sonni
It's just like a thing that you do to a woman. So it really speaks to not seeing women as human and not seeing them as part of it. I hear a lot of men say things like women don't like sex, which I think just it bring up every feminist sarcastic bone in my body of like, she doesn't like sex with you.

00:18:16:22 - 00:18:29:12
Lisa Sonni
Women do like sex. You've just identified the problem without even realizing it. It actually almost makes me laugh at this point in my life, when men say that that women don't like sex, I'm like all women that you've experienced a boy.

00:18:29:15 - 00:18:30:08
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Telling on yourself.

00:18:30:09 - 00:18:51:02
Lisa Sonni
You just said something. Yeah, well. How embarrassing. I play with them online like that to make them feel bad a little bit, because, I don't know, I'm pro shaming, coercive men. But deeper than this, there's a real entitlement that you keep talking about here, that they believe that they should have this. Like, why be in a relationship if you aren't getting regular sex?

00:18:51:02 - 00:18:58:16
Lisa Sonni
That's the point. But how are men destroying their own sex lives? That's what I'm hearing here. They're doing this to themselves.

00:18:58:21 - 00:19:22:08
Dr. Danielle Kramer
They are. So when we use this language of like withholding that right, that reveals an entitlement mindset. So any time someone says to me like, well, so-and-so's withholding tax or she's withholding tax, right? That is an entitlement mindset. And when you have an entitlement mindset, you cannot have preexisting consent. Right? Because I'm entitled to your body. Like often we'll hear men say like, well, sex is a need.

00:19:22:11 - 00:19:43:03
Dr. Danielle Kramer
It's not no one died with on it. Food is a need, right? Needs are things that your body needs to survive food, water, clothing, shelter, things like that. Right? These are human needs. I will die without them. Or at least my health and everything will significantly deteriorate to the point of long term. I will eventually die. Nobody has died without that.

00:19:43:08 - 00:20:02:19
Dr. Danielle Kramer
And then I get the argument like, well, the human population will die off. That's not what we're talking about. We're not talking about macro level. We're talking about you in this relationship. Right? So when you don't leave space for her sexuality, right? When I'm entitled to sex with you, then that means that sex is something that you provide me as a duty, right?

00:20:02:19 - 00:20:29:11
Dr. Danielle Kramer
Like you have to provide this as a service in a relationship. Well, what studies show us happens when we hold that mindset in our relationship. It shows us women's libidos. And because there's no space for them to have sexual expression, my only sexual expression is me performing a duty for you. We also find, which is really sad when women themselves hold this mindset, when women themselves buy into the mindset because that even matters to that I oh, you said we see more sexual pain.

00:20:29:14 - 00:20:53:00
Dr. Danielle Kramer
We see things like vaginismus, which is a physiological response that your body is having to being forced into having sex, that you don't actually want to have. Right. So do you want to have that then when your libido is tanked, when there's no space for your sexual expression, and when you're having pain during sex because of this withholding and this entitlement means that no, women aren't going to want to have that.

00:20:53:00 - 00:21:12:02
Lisa Sonni
Of course, of course, you know, if you're not centered in it at all, why? Like what's the point? You know, to men's point, it's for both people. So if the men are being centered and women are not part of it, or women's pleasure is not part of it, it's going to feel awful. In addition to being coerced and not being able to say no.

00:21:12:02 - 00:21:40:00
Lisa Sonni
So, I mean, you kind of touched on and I'm just thinking about is how some of these coercive men demand that you finish like they they are trying to center you, or it seems like they are in it like you, you have to finish kind of way. And I have spoken with so many women that are like, I just fake it because, like, he won't stop it going for 45 minutes unless I just pretend that I could see how a woman would think while he cares about my pleasure.

00:21:40:00 - 00:21:42:20
Lisa Sonni
But what's your take on that? Because I don't think he cares at all.

00:21:42:23 - 00:22:00:18
Dr. Danielle Kramer
No, but I go back to that idea of like, persuasion versus giving you something to respond to in that moment. I care about my own needs and ego. It's not actually about you finding pleasure, and it's not about me finding what's pleasurable to you. Right? If I really want to give you pleasure, then I'm going to be curious.

00:22:00:23 - 00:22:21:21
Dr. Danielle Kramer
I'm going to say, does it feel better here or here? Do you like this better here or here? Show me how you do it on yourself. Right. Like if you can get yourself there, teach me how you do that. I care about your pleasure. But what's actually happening there is. I care about my ego. I don't want you to finish because we're doing this together, and this is a team effort I want you to finish so I can feel good about myself.

00:22:22:01 - 00:22:39:22
Dr. Danielle Kramer
I can walk out of this room being like, yeah, I'm the man. Like, I got her to finish. And. And she enjoyed it, right? But what's happening in women is what you describe this like pressure scenario in their head. That is the opposite of orgasm. Orgasm is being in my body, feeling that tension and releasing and letting go.

00:22:40:00 - 00:22:54:23
Dr. Danielle Kramer
If I have pressure to meet a certain outcome, that is the opposite of where we're trying to go right now. I'm solution focused and I feel this pressure to do this for you. That's not going to get anybody to orgasm.

00:22:55:01 - 00:23:16:18
Nat La June
When I first got to TikTok in 2020, I had not put myself on the internet much at all. I had, you know, those glossy Instagram pictures where you're trying to hide what's really going on behind the scenes? So, I didn't think anybody would see it. So I just thought, I'll just record a couple videos on the floor of my bedroom really quietly, and I started talking about what was going on in my home.

00:23:16:22 - 00:23:38:06
Nat La June
And over the next few weeks, one of my videos went viral, and somebody's in the comments over those next few weeks said, that sounds like sexual coercion. That's not okay. And then that sparked something. And I said, that is a thing. I've heard of that. And I started to go down rabbit hole researching that. And I because I initially thought it wasn't anything to do with marriage.

00:23:38:10 - 00:23:59:15
Nat La June
Right. I thought that was just, you know, college kids dating that I'm way beyond that now that I'm married. It's a thing you kind of have to do, right? No. So I started to talk about, wait a minute, this isn't right with happening to all these women. What happened to me for 20 years, right? So I started to talk about what sexual coercion looks like and how it's different in marriage.

00:23:59:18 - 00:24:15:20
Nat La June
And that became accidentally a platform based on marital coercion, which I kind of made up on the fly in a video. And it made hashtag on a website. It became a thing. So now we talk about that almost every day, new women discovering it for the first time.

00:24:15:22 - 00:24:36:15
Lisa Sonni
It's devastating because I remember and I probably said this to you before I was like, okay, he was abusive financially. He was abusive emotionally, physically. You know, I've been through it all, but I've never experienced sexual abuse. And it was a video of yours and I don't really remember which specific video, but I remember holding my phone like, wait, what?

00:24:36:15 - 00:24:56:12
Lisa Sonni
You shocked me. And I was already like, I was already on TikTok. I already was making my own content. And it was like, how didn't I see this? Like, how didn't I know? And then I just like, drank all of your content obsessively, but it's also really triggering for me because I think I've realized that that type of abuse that I experienced in my own abusive relationship was worse than I thought.

00:24:56:12 - 00:25:01:05
Lisa Sonni
So it was like unpacking it through watching your content. So thank you. And yeah, oh my God, when.

00:25:01:05 - 00:25:18:15
Nat La June
You think you're over all of it and you're teaching and you're helping and then it creeps up this new thing. Yeah. And and for me it was kind of the opposite because I kept making excuses for it because there was nothing else. Right? I didn't have all the other abuse. So I just thought, no, but he's such a good guy.

00:25:18:15 - 00:25:19:21
Nat La June
This can't be abuse.

00:25:20:00 - 00:25:45:00
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, yeah. And it's so it's bizarre. I mean, I also thought it wasn't abuse despite it being physical, despite being all kinds of things. But when you don't know, you don't know. And education is key. And this book I brought into my own relationship and I was like, we just because you know what? I think what brings a lot of people into this book, the Five Love Languages, is this thought of like, we're not communicating well, I don't feel love y.

00:25:45:05 - 00:26:06:16
Lisa Sonni
And so you start to dig into it and then you realize, oh my God, this makes so much sense. My love language is words of affirmation and acts of service. And oh, I see his his physical touch or his and my abusers was quality time and physical touch. But physical touch was the primary. And I remember him actually saying to me, oh, so you because I scored on all of them.

00:26:06:18 - 00:26:26:18
Lisa Sonni
Words of affirmation. Acts of service were the two highest, but I scored pretty high on them all. Gifts was the lowest. And then he was like, so you need all this. You need so much to feel loved. And I was like, no, you're supposed that. The book says you're supposed to see it as lucky you. I feel loved in so many different ways that you don't actually have to do one specific thing.

00:26:26:18 - 00:26:43:03
Lisa Sonni
It's it's supposed to make you feel free to love me in so many different ways. But it was like, oh, so you just need me to, like, fill your head up with compliments. You're insecure. You need validation because I like two words of affirmation and I'm like, is it weird that you want your partner to say you look nice today?

00:26:43:03 - 00:27:07:04
Lisa Sonni
Or I just couldn't understand, like, I it confused me until TikTok and until TikTok. And I remember it was you talking about that book, and I was like, oh my God, this book is the worst. It's the worst book in the world. So the five love languages, what is your take on where it came from? Like, I know Gary Chapman Southern Baptist, but like, what do you what do you assume is is motivation was.

00:27:07:09 - 00:27:35:03
Nat La June
Well, as with most old, especially older but now new generation two, white male pastors are driven by control, sex and the feeling of being a hero in their lives and in their wife and children and lives, but being leaders and protectors and providers and all of that, I think he wanted to write a book, and he was counseling people at the time.

00:27:35:08 - 00:28:08:06
Nat La June
This is everybody says, oh, he was counselor. He got all this from all these people, but he counseled, but church pastors as counselors are not qualified. They don't have the education or training. They are not psychologists. And so he was doing basically what I do, just talking to people and listening to them and making up shit based on that, which is fine if it really is working for people and I, I don't know, I wonder at times if he didn't write the whole thing, especially physical touch, because he wasn't getting some in his own marriage.

00:28:08:08 - 00:28:09:07
Nat La June
Right? Yeah.

00:28:09:07 - 00:28:11:03
Lisa Sonni
How can I convince my wife?

00:28:11:05 - 00:28:14:17
Nat La June
Yeah. And convincing is not consenting, right?

00:28:14:19 - 00:28:33:21
Lisa Sonni
I mean, I swear I could do a whole episode on the difference between persuasion and coercion. But that aside, I also think that he started this to sort of get something. And it's it's the framework of it. It seems so genius. And I remember this comment once of a woman saying on TikTok, you know, it's not that the book is bad.

00:28:33:23 - 00:28:55:11
Lisa Sonni
The book is really helpful for a lot of people. It's actually that it's in the hands of abusers sometimes who are misusing it. And I remember feeling like, nah, I think it's doing exactly what it was meant to do. I think this book was written by a man who is very interested, for obvious reasons, and upholding the patriarchy and finding ways to sort of make coercion normal.

00:28:55:11 - 00:29:11:07
Lisa Sonni
Call it normal, and it it shouldn't be what's Christian. But so often I speak to women who are Christian and who are saying they're being coerced specifically using this book, specifically being told that their partner's love language is physical touch.

00:29:11:09 - 00:29:37:17
Nat La June
Yeah, absolutely. And when you as a narcissistic abuse, coach. Right. You deal with all the narcissism and you can probably see it when you start to talk to Christians. Christianity as a concept is narcissistic. Christianity as a religion treats their own people the way a narcissist treats the victim, and it conditioned them to become a little narcissist, treating everybody the same way.

00:29:37:20 - 00:29:55:20
Lisa Sonni
It's devastating. Actually, I really it bothers me so much when I'm speaking to women that are like. But he says it's my duty and now I can't unsee your book. If you guys don't have it, I'm going to link it in the caption so people can get it. But man, like all the phrases that you put in like, we're just roommates, it's your duty.

00:29:55:20 - 00:30:12:10
Lisa Sonni
But that's how I feel loved. And that's really going back to the book, like, but that's how I feel loved. I don't feel loved in any other way. Now, you as a content creator, you get all the comments from the men. Let's talk about your comment sections as it relates to this for a moment. Tell me what that's been like.

00:30:12:11 - 00:30:30:10
Nat La June
I told the man recently that there is nothing left that I haven't heard, so I said go. How about it? Tell me everything in the book that you can imagine to get at me. And I've heard it already from a hundred other men. So, the top ones really are the. It's I say the second one is the physical touch.

00:30:30:10 - 00:30:48:16
Nat La June
It's a love language, number one. It's just that it's it's neat in general that men, men need sex. Number two is love languages. Number three would be, it's health, part of a healthy relationship. That's a that's a gaslighting one because it takes a healthy relationship for two people to want to have sex in the first place, right?

00:30:48:20 - 00:30:49:02
Nat La June
Right.

00:30:49:02 - 00:30:51:05
Lisa Sonni
So we're doing the steps backwards. Yeah.

00:30:51:10 - 00:31:02:20
Nat La June
So and then they'll and then probably in the top five is chicken or the egg. Does she not want sex because I'm treating her badly. Or am I treating her badly because she's not having sex with me right now?

00:31:02:20 - 00:31:23:22
Lisa Sonni
That was my it's valid. Yeah that but so in that I discovered something and again through you like you you really I know, you know because I tell you all the time. But like, my God, you've changed things so much for me. But the transaction in that I have to earn his kindness through giving him my body. And it's like, I don't know why that men can't see it that way.

00:31:24:01 - 00:31:41:09
Lisa Sonni
And and then they'll say, oh, you're using do the dishes as a transaction. And I'm like, but you told me that I needed to earn your kindness, so why don't you need to earn? And nobody wants it to be transactional. That's gross. But it becomes transactional when you say, be nice to me and then I'll sleep with you.

00:31:41:11 - 00:32:04:01
Nat La June
I got to say, it's actually perpetuated by society as a whole. And I came across a video recently where I had a bunch of women coming at me and attacking me because, and this woman I don't believe was being coerced, but she made a video. This hit the For You page was viral, and she was saying, something about a wake up in the morning and give my husband head, and then he'll do all the chores today.

00:32:04:04 - 00:32:17:04
Nat La June
But the way she said, it was just sort of like, this is what she does, but not because she doesn't want to. She does want to. But it was a joke. It was a funny. Ha ha. I can get my husband to be my dancing monkey all day, because I do this one little thing for him in the morning.

00:32:17:04 - 00:32:35:06
Nat La June
And hey ladies, do this for your husband. And you can have that trick pony too, right? But women in the comments were pushing back victims saying, hey, wait a minute, you can't be telling women this because they have to still want to do it, and you can't make it transactional because you're feeding into those men saying, hey, give me some, and then I'll do that stuff.

00:32:35:11 - 00:32:55:19
Nat La June
And then they're withholding chores and things to get sex. And, all these women came after me for calling that out myself to say, hey, this is probably not okay to say to women. It's not just I've. I've settled down. I used to say it's just bad what they're saying. But in a consensual situation, it's still toxic. And uncomfortable for me.

00:32:55:19 - 00:33:07:22
Nat La June
But it. And I would never do it. But that's their marriage. If that's how they are, that's fine. I just don't think you should be putting that out there. It's the standard or the norm. Right. But it is. It is very normal for women to do that.

00:33:08:02 - 00:33:08:08
Lisa Sonni
Like.

00:33:08:08 - 00:33:09:11
Nat La June
I don't yuck.

00:33:09:12 - 00:33:09:17
Lisa Sonni
I.

00:33:09:19 - 00:33:10:03
Nat La June
I'm.

00:33:10:06 - 00:33:29:09
Lisa Sonni
Speechless like ill because I don't like the idea of, listen, I have a trick. All you need to do is do this one act and then it'll make him perform. Because first of all, in my experience, that is a frigging lie. That absolutely won't work. So imagine trying that. Like, okay, it worked for her. High five. It didn't work for me.

00:33:29:12 - 00:33:42:03
Lisa Sonni
I wouldn't if we even when I did write that and that was the test, it was like, do this and then I'll be nicer to you. And I was like, all right, let me try that. But then your body feels like really disconnected and gross while you're doing it.

00:33:42:03 - 00:33:44:13
Nat La June
It's really just because you don't want it.

00:33:44:16 - 00:33:46:16
Lisa Sonni
You don't actually want know how much doing it.

00:33:46:18 - 00:34:11:07
Nat La June
She does want it. But here's the problem that I have with her in women like this. She does want it. She is consenting, so she can't. We can't argue that's not consent. But what kind of man is saying he's okay with this? If I'm. I know good, decent men and I think I haven't talked to them about this specifically, but I would think they would be mortified to know that this was the right motivation.

00:34:11:10 - 00:34:31:01
Nat La June
Yeah. And it's manipulative on her part. It's manipulation. And he's going along with it, going for it for two reasons. Either he's just a superficial prick and he doesn't care about her, or and he just wants to get sex, or he's actually the one being manipulated in this relationship. And maybe we need to get him some help, right?

00:34:31:05 - 00:34:37:17
Lisa Sonni
Good point. Actually, I never see it from that side because, you know, I'm how I am with men. But however we want to label that, but.

00:34:37:17 - 00:34:40:19
Nat La June
I it has taken me a lot of healing to.

00:34:40:21 - 00:34:58:07
Lisa Sonni
Yeah I'm on that journey but I'm not there yet. But I just feel like the, the opportunity to I mean, and coerce each other. And honestly, I mean, I see this in your comment section and any time I am brave enough or crazy enough to make a video on sexual coercion, I get the same thing where it's like women do it too.

00:34:58:09 - 00:35:13:12
Lisa Sonni
I'm not saying they don't, to be honest with you. I'm really not saying that they don't. I'm saying that they do it far less often. Far, so far less often that I don't personally care to even talk about it. And I also think that a lot of men have this weird belief of like, well, that's fine by me.

00:35:13:12 - 00:35:16:14
Lisa Sonni
Like what we're talking about. Yeah, these guys are like, wake up and get that great.

00:35:16:14 - 00:35:35:16
Nat La June
Yeah. I just said on This morning, there are two reasons that men say women do it too. Number one is deflection to get women to stop talking about it. But number two is because it's so damn rare that they just can't believe a woman got one over on a man because we're supposed to be bigots from right? We are not to talk about this because something bad happened to a man.

00:35:35:21 - 00:35:40:06
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. That's important. That's a really. We need to talk about this now that it's happening to men.

00:35:40:06 - 00:35:42:21
Nat La June
Shocking. But it's because it's so rare.

00:35:43:02 - 00:36:02:19
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. God, so do you. I remember that in the book. At least this is my memory. But it didn't used to sort of explicitly say that it was sex as part of physical touch. I can't find any reference to that. I've had another, online creator say that she sort of remembers that, too. And maybe I'm wrong.

00:36:02:19 - 00:36:18:09
Nat La June
Yeah, I get comments saying the opposite, that there are people that say, well, no, but Gary Chapman came out and said publicly that it doesn't mean sex, but it doesn't matter, because here's the thing. It doesn't matter if it's sex or not. Physical touch is a violation if.

00:36:18:09 - 00:36:23:05
Lisa Sonni
You don't want it. That point, actually you're right. But I will say that the book says.

00:36:23:08 - 00:36:45:16
Nat La June
Does the book say sex? It may be that there was a reprint, another version later, I think, but regardless if you are poking me in the shoulder against my will and I've asked you to stop, it is a violation. And if that happens repeatedly over and over again throughout the years, it doesn't matter if it's just a smack on my ass, it's not okay.

00:36:45:16 - 00:37:03:08
Nat La June
It's violating. And that's how women, you see women around every once in a while with really frumpy clothes all the time. They'll never wear anything revealing or sexy. That's the kind of thing that happens when men complain that their wife has let herself go. It's because when she looked nice for him, he violated her.

00:37:03:13 - 00:37:18:18
Lisa Sonni
Yes, that's so true. You know, it's interesting. I have a client who, every time she's like, hey, can you grab that cup for me on the top shelf? He's like, show me your boobs. And if she doesn't, he won't help her. And I'm like, the. And I get that. That's not touch, but there's no consent. It's a transaction.

00:37:18:18 - 00:37:23:16
Lisa Sonni
And it's for his viewing pleasure. It's. And it's one step away from other things.

00:37:23:16 - 00:37:32:01
Nat La June
It is still sexually violating. It's objectifying. And, there studies all kinds of studies done on objectifying. I think there may be one on my website.

00:37:32:07 - 00:37:48:20
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. Why why I don't want to say, why do men do this? But like, what do you think really is the driving factor here? Because what I hear and see so often is that while men feel rejected, if you don't sleep with them, men need sex. And so those are two different things. But to me, that's what I see the most common.

00:37:48:20 - 00:37:50:14
Lisa Sonni
What what's the issue.

00:37:50:18 - 00:38:21:10
Nat La June
There are I see different kinds of men to kind of go gently on some of the men, some of them genuinely have been raised and taught to feel love in this way. I have a video pinned on my, TikTok right there where I had a, what I call a channeled message. That's a whole different topic we can get into later, but, it's this message came to me about men growing up as boys having their emotions stifled, and then so they're not allowed to feel really, or express their feelings when they do have them.

00:38:21:12 - 00:38:51:12
Nat La June
And so then they get into teenage years and they, they experience sex for the first time. And that opens up this floodgates through oxytocin. They're getting all these emotions chemically, and then they can feel something. Now I have feelings and I can feel something. And it's always with a woman, right? So the more they go on through life in this cycle of I can't feel sex makes me feel I'm not allowed to feel sex makes me feel they get in this, conditioning where sex is the only way I can feel now.

00:38:51:18 - 00:39:19:01
Nat La June
And I've experienced this firsthand with someone I dated. He could not express feelings outside of the bedroom. And he was very good, kind, nice man. Derek treated women very well. Would never have been coercive, but we had lots of conversations about this because of my content. And this was kind of how it was for him. He shut off and disconnected from his body when he wasn't having sex, and then it would wake up all of this emotion in him when he was having sex.

00:39:19:05 - 00:39:40:15
Nat La June
So for those kinds of men, I, I don't think sometimes I might say they're accidentally coercive. It's not actually accidental. There is something going on there, but it's not the direct entitlement we see in abusive men. And so that's the majority of coercive men are the incels, the, awful entitled the men who don't even see women as human.

00:39:40:21 - 00:40:04:02
Nat La June
So I have to separate those men because there is a small percentage of them that would get help if they were confronted with this. The others would kick and scream and go down fighting, because in those men, it's not that just that they weren't allowed to feel. They were told that it's that's totally normal and it's okay. And anyone who asks you to feel is just edge, and then you move on through life and sex.

00:40:04:02 - 00:40:28:21
Nat La June
It's so normalized that sex is the way men feel that they just. And women are not human. Women are objects for their desire. Men have told me, why would I get married except to have sex? What's the point? You know, if if I can't get it from her, I'll get it somewhere else. Because she is just a vessel for sex and he can easily replace her with anyone else on earth.

00:40:28:23 - 00:40:54:17
Lisa Sonni
If you recognize parts of yourself in this episode, I want you to hear this so clearly. When someone feels entitled to your body, it kills intimacy. Bedrooms are often dead because a man is destroying it. He's coercing you and he's created this environment. Unfortunately, this is something that so many women are experiencing inside their relationships, and a lot of women have really been taught just to ignore their own discomfort.

00:40:54:17 - 00:41:15:09
Lisa Sonni
Right? You want to keep the peace? I always ask, whose peace are you keeping right is your reactions, your feelings, your boundaries. They actually matter. So if you want to go deeper into this topic, I highly recommend listening to the full episodes with Doctor Danielle Kramer, Doctor Kepala, sorry, and That Lagoon. I'm going to link those all in the show notes so that you can find them easily.

00:41:15:13 - 00:41:23:13
Lisa Sonni
Thanks so much for listening to Real Talk with Lisa Sunny Relationships Uncensored, the podcast they don't want you listening to, and I'll see you next season.