“It’s Not Confusion” Why Abusive Behavior Feels Unclear (But Isn’t) | S3EP16

You keep trying to make sense of it. 

Maybe he didn’t mean it. Maybe you misunderstood. Maybe you’re overthinking.

The reality? Confusion is not the problem. It’s the outcome. When someone can hurt you and comfort you in the same breath, your brain tries to reconcile two realities that don’t belong together. He loves you and he harms you. He apologizes and repeats it. That contradiction is what keeps you stuck trying to figure it out. 

In this “Best Of” Real Talk episode, Lisa pulls together powerful insights from Dr. Peter Salerno, Aishia Grevenberg, Dr. Les Carter, and Brent MacLerie to expose what is actually happening beneath that confusion. 

They break down how manipulation often hides behind subtle behavior, how entitlement drives repeated harm, and why the idea that “he doesn’t know what he’s doing” keeps you trapped longer. 

When behavior repeats, especially when it hurts you, that is not confusion. That is information. 

The clarity you’ve been searching for is not in understanding him better. It’s in seeing the pattern clearly and trusting what it’s already showing you. 

🎧 Listen to the full episodes: 

Dr. Peter Salerno: https://youtu.be/_gKCmT1YazY 

Aishia Grevenberg: https://youtu.be/-LeQ9ZwtcGY 

Dr. Les Carter: https://youtu.be/kU5siEWppf8 

Brent MacLerie: https://youtu.be/aibF4SAjX_8

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:08:17
Unknown


00:00:08:19 - 00:00:17:22
Lisa Sonni
This is real talk with Lisa Sunny relationships uncensored. The podcast they don't want you listening to and.

00:00:18:00 - 00:00:40:06
Lisa Sonni
I hear this all the time. Women telling me I'm confused. He doesn't understand. Maybe he didn't mean it. I don't know what's happening. I don't know if he realizes that he's abusive. And I really get it. Because the truth is, when you're in it, it does feel incredibly confusing. It's really hard to figure out when someone is telling you two things that can't possibly be happening at the same time are both true.

00:00:40:11 - 00:01:03:01
Lisa Sonni
He loves you, and he hurts you, right? And this is how abusive men become. The pain and the comfort, the knife and the Band-Aid. But when you zoom out, it's actually not confusing at all. So in this episode, I'm doing something a little bit different. I want to take some of the best episodes, some of the most clear experts that we've had, and put them all together so that you can see the big picture.

00:01:03:03 - 00:01:28:12
Lisa Sonni
I'm pulling together some of the most important conversations that we've had on this podcast. We're talking about manipulation, intent, and abusive behavior. When you start to understand this all together as one big pattern, it's all going to start to click. So today you're going to hear from Doctor Les Carter, anti misogyny expert Brant McCleary. Therapist Aisha Greenberg and Doctor Peter Solano.

00:01:28:17 - 00:01:58:03
Lisa Sonni
These are four different perspectives for different conversations. But I'm telling you they all point to the same thing. Abuse is actually not confusion. There's no miscommunication happening. It's not your fault. You're not causing someone to behave this way. It's not his mom. It's not trauma. It's not alcoholism. Abuse is rooted in entitlement. Abuse is a choice. You can't fix someone else's choice to be abusive by communicating better, by staying, by being more understanding.

00:01:58:06 - 00:02:16:04
Lisa Sonni
And so I want you to really listen to this episode just with a completely different lens. Don't ask yourself how do I make this better? Ask yourself instead, what am I dealing with here? And this is going to make things so much more clear. Let's get into it.

00:02:16:06 - 00:02:34:18
Dr. Les Carter
I've been doing this for a while. I'm in my 70s now and I'm retired. And, you know, some of your viewers know that I have a YouTube channel called Surviving Narcissism. I'm not contributing new content to it, but we have about 1400 or so videos on there on the channel. So we still have plenty of folks that come around and watch the videos.

00:02:34:18 - 00:02:54:10
Dr. Les Carter
And, you know, I finished my doctorate in 1984. You were born. And so when I started out as a young therapist, I had a professor who had a lot of material on anger management. And so as a young therapist, what I did is I did a lot of anger management classes and seminars, and that's how I got going.

00:02:54:10 - 00:03:09:14
Dr. Les Carter
My professionally and I would do like six weeks at a time, and I'd do six a year. So it kept me busy and kind of put me on the map, so to speak, and we'd have all sorts of people coming in. Some people were the ones who have the anger problems, and some were the ones who were dealing with the angry individuals.

00:03:09:17 - 00:03:36:04
Dr. Les Carter
And as the years and decades went by, obviously I would I was learning more and more about my topic. I began realizing, you know, when I'm talking about conflict and anger and tension, there's so many other subcategories that go along with that. And so many of those subcategories fit very tightly with the concept of narcissism. You know, angry individuals tend to be high controlling, and they tend to have low empathy.

00:03:36:04 - 00:04:00:02
Dr. Les Carter
They tend to to have an attitude of superiority. My way is the only way that that matters in this moment. Don't you forget it. They tend to be manipulative and exploitive, etc., etc. and and so I began morphing in some of my emphasis and into understanding the narcissistic tendencies that we have because ultimately, when we look at my narcissism, we're examining the dark side of the human condition.

00:04:00:06 - 00:04:17:08
Dr. Les Carter
You know, we all have what I refer to as the dual nature. There's a part of us that has the divine on the inside of us, and then there's a part of us is capable of evil and negativity. And as we grow, we we can struggle with both sides. And healthy individuals are honest with themselves about all of that.

00:04:17:10 - 00:04:37:12
Dr. Les Carter
And healthy people can say, you know what? I do have some capabilities where I can be mean or I can be caustic or I can be inappropriate, and I need to tend to that, and I need to make sure that I understand why that's there and what drives that so that I can go into the better route. Part of the definition of an immature person is the unwillingness to self examine.

00:04:37:13 - 00:05:01:20
Dr. Les Carter
And like you say, it's not as though immaturity is their goal. It's just it's part of it. But their lack of self-examination just allows them to have all sorts of maladaptive behaviors. A repeat, you know, just over and over. And so many people that would come into my office and then that I would meet in seminars, etc. would say, yeah, and there's, there's just I just feel so bad about myself because I don't like the way I react.

00:05:02:00 - 00:05:13:22
Dr. Les Carter
I don't like the way I respond. These people bring the worst out of me. And so it becomes this vicious cycle that people can wind up being stuck in, with the immature person being the one setting the pace.

00:05:14:03 - 00:05:31:14
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, they do tend to I feel like, you know, immaturity learns, but abuse repeats. So somebody who's immature can grow or if that's their only sort of issue, they can grow and they can learn. But abusive ness repeats. I think there's a benefit to being abusive. Learn the hard way.

00:05:31:15 - 00:05:51:08
Dr. Les Carter
It's a great way to put it. Okay. I'm probably going to give you too much information on this, but going way back to the 50s and 60s about group up at Harvard, we're trying to come up with a way to determine how a person might be a healthy individual. So they came up with what they called the 16 personality factors, a 16 factors that were part of being a healthy person.

00:05:51:13 - 00:06:18:16
Dr. Les Carter
And over time, they began narrowing it down and more people began coming in and looking at their research. And they narrow that down to five primary ingredients to watch for. That tells us where a person is and their healthiness. And we refer to that as the ocean model. OCA in always up for openness. C is conscientious. E is extroversion, A is agreeableness, and N is neuroticism where we can look at you and, and on those five different grids.

00:06:18:16 - 00:06:38:22
Dr. Les Carter
And based on where you are on some of those, we can figure out, you know, your level of personal maturity. The number one out of those five ingredients that tells us if you're a healthy person or not is your level of conscientiousness. It's the see. And to be conscientious, that's a very rich word where you're tuned in to other individuals.

00:06:38:22 - 00:07:03:23
Dr. Les Carter
You make decisions based on other people who might be involved with you in those decisions, others a sense of anticipation. There's a reliability or responsibility. Empathy is involved in your conscientiousness. And so when people have a very conscientious mindset, then usually those are individuals that are delightful to get along with. And you really care about them and they care about you, and you can have a lot of mutuality.

00:07:04:01 - 00:07:24:00
Dr. Les Carter
But there are some individuals who their thinking is, well, conscientious. I'm conscientious about how you treat me. So they misuse it and so they don't like it. And so their immaturity, it's all about me, all the time and just the it takes over or they're just kind of like you say, an autopilot. They just keep they just keep going back to it over and over.

00:07:24:02 - 00:07:33:17
Dr. Les Carter
And that lack of conscientiousness has many. And when I say many, a whole lot of ramifications with respect to how relationships will play out.

00:07:33:23 - 00:07:46:05
Lisa Sonni
Absolutely. Who do you think actually benefits, though, when we label it as immaturity only? I feel like the frame is always he's traumatized. He's just immature. Are there choices that are happening as part of this?

00:07:46:06 - 00:08:13:20
Dr. Les Carter
Oh yeah, there are choices. And keep in mind that narcissistic individuals are chronic victims. Like, look what you're doing to me now. And so if you want to say, well, you've got emotional issues, they'll either do one of two things. So flip it around on you. Me what about you. Or if they if it's extremely obvious, if they've been screaming for hours, they might say something like, well, if you had to live with my old man, then maybe you wouldn't have it so easy yourself, you know?

00:08:13:20 - 00:08:32:00
Dr. Les Carter
And so they can make excuses about, you know, people in their past or people in their presence. Or the reason I get mad is because you're so unreasonable. They they come up with all these excuses. So if we just say, well, you know, I need to give them, cut them some slack because maybe they're trying to figure things out, but that narcissistic person, they're just going to take it.

00:08:32:00 - 00:08:50:17
Dr. Les Carter
It's like, oh good, you just gave me a I just bought a little bit more time with you. And yeah, if there is a problem is because I'm exposed to idiots like you. And so that's how they think and that's how they operate. And I'm sure that many people in our listening audience today can say, oh, yeah, I've been on the receiving end of all sorts of blame for things that emanate from that person.

00:08:50:17 - 00:08:57:09
Dr. Les Carter
That's so difficult, but somehow it's my fault. And in the narcissistic world, that's how it works.

00:08:57:12 - 00:09:14:22
Lisa Sonni
The davo is so destabilizing. It's like you're in the middle of a conversation and suddenly like, wait, how are you the victim? But accountability I like they're allergic to accountability. Their whole function is how can I blame someone else? How can I externalize what's really going on here? It's definitely not me. It's you.

00:09:15:00 - 00:09:33:20
Dr. Les Carter
Well, anyway, I go back to my original comment. We all have this dual nature and you know, if you were to ask me, will lash, have you ever been angry? And the answer is, yeah, I've been angry. Sometimes it can be very appropriate and and I really work hard to, you know, you have to practice what you preach, that I really work hard to, to be appropriate with it.

00:09:33:20 - 00:09:55:06
Dr. Les Carter
But then if I, if I look into my personal history, it's like, you know, I have had those moments and when it just hasn't really played out right, and I frankly made a fool of myself or I was inappropriate or I think I stepped on someone's toes unnecessarily, then that healthy, non narcissistic person can say, I've got some soul searching to do.

00:09:55:06 - 00:10:26:01
Dr. Les Carter
And that said, self-reflection and you know, you can get someone that's really kind and helpful and they can think, well, I'm here with you and I'll work with you. And if you're struggling, then I'm right here by your side. Don't worry. And the narcissist thinking, I think I can work this in my favor. And so they might admit that there's a problem, but as soon as you step in and say, well, I can help you, then in their mind they're thinking, yeah, you can help me by being a better version of you, and somehow it's your problem.

00:10:26:01 - 00:10:30:02
Dr. Les Carter
And that that lack of self reflection shows up very quickly.

00:10:30:05 - 00:10:37:19
Lisa Sonni
It always reminds me, you know, so many victims and survivors are like, am I the problem? Am I the narcissist? If you're self-reflecting, probably not. You know.

00:10:38:01 - 00:10:38:21
Dr. Les Carter
That's not a.

00:10:38:21 - 00:10:40:04
Lisa Sonni
Common trait of.

00:10:40:04 - 00:10:59:13
Dr. Les Carter
The West. Although when people ask that question, am I the problem? I'll say, well, your biggest problem is you don't think like a narcissist. You try to apply common sense, healthy qualities to a very unhealthy person. And unfortunately in relationships and the unhealthy person tends to be the one that's most dominant.

00:10:59:16 - 00:11:20:05
Lisa Sonni
And that makes sense. And I mean, hello, that's why they've got the power in these relationships and why victims feel just completely helpless in this, how things get flipped and twisted. We we seem to kind of see this as, you know, emotional immaturity. Where does this sort of shift into fixed relational patterns, do you think?

00:11:20:08 - 00:11:40:10
Dr. Les Carter
Well, let's go to you. You just used a big word, the word power. Narcissistic people think in terms of power. Now, now, Lisa, if you and I were in a disagreement with each other and we were trying to talk it through, I would say, well, Lisa, here's what I was trying to convey. And you would say, well, this is what I had in mind, and this is what I heard.

00:11:40:13 - 00:12:00:18
Dr. Les Carter
And as we would talk with each other, there would be no one upmanship. There would be no need to say, well, you're, you're you're always making assumptions. You're so stupid. There would be no insults or anything of that nature. There would be a real healthy exchange. It's like I hadn't thought of things from your vantage point before, but let me get some some good thought to it and let's see if we can move forward.

00:12:00:23 - 00:12:24:18
Dr. Les Carter
And there would be a sense of collegiality. How hard is that? And the answer is with some folks, it's darn near impossible. They can't do that because we go back to that word power. It's like to them, relationships are an opportunity to establish power. You know, immature people. They're so hungry for validation and they need to be the most special person in the room.

00:12:24:19 - 00:12:45:12
Dr. Les Carter
They want people to regale them. They want people to say, yeah, you. You make sense. I don't, but you do. And so that's that's how they think. So they're constantly in a game of one upmanship with you and you can walk away thinking, well, did I do something wrong or have I offended this person? And my answer is, well, the biggest problem that you did is you showed up.

00:12:45:14 - 00:12:52:15
Dr. Les Carter
You do. Some folks just show up and you're already on the low end of. They had totem pole.

00:12:52:17 - 00:13:11:18
Lisa Sonni
It is sort of a fragility, but it's not a weakness in the sense of I think men see it as like I can fight, you know, like they immediately go to like physical violence or, or physical power. But it's how it has shown up for me. What I've seen is all these sort of, I would say, even like a trap in these relationships.

00:13:11:18 - 00:13:32:21
Lisa Sonni
Where to just be honest with me and then you're screamed at because they can't actually handle the honesty. They take it in a completely different way. What they actually wanted was reassurance, not honesty. That wasn't what they were going for at all. I think even the tone policing that you see, like I had to use specific words at specific times and frankly, that didn't work.

00:13:32:21 - 00:13:53:13
Lisa Sonni
But women tend to find themselves trying to find the right way, the right moment, the right words in order to not get such a big emotional reaction always shocks me that, like, women are the emotional ones, and yet men are punching holes in walls and flipping their lid when their team loses or whatever it's like now I'm pretty sure we're not the emotional ones here.

00:13:53:17 - 00:14:09:11
Brent MacLerie
Yeah, I think I've got a video that I'm going to become that it's just going to show a bunch of, like male sports stars when they lose or defeated. And like, this one is like a tennis player who destroys like three rackets in a row. There's another golf player who just starts whacking the golf course and ends up breaking like a sprinkler.

00:14:09:17 - 00:14:12:23
Brent MacLerie
Like, yeah, that's like very emotional behavior, right?

00:14:13:01 - 00:14:17:15
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, but I thought how we get this wrap for being the emotional ones is beyond me lined up.

00:14:17:20 - 00:14:35:21
Brent MacLerie
But I think you hit it on correctly. I'm talking about like, there's this trap, right? Because, you know, men talk about like they can't talk about their feelings. Right. This is a this is like something that you will actually hear a lot from men. They want to be more emotional. They want to express these things. And then they have these conversations of relationships where they're like, no, you can tell me, you can be honest.

00:14:35:21 - 00:14:57:19
Brent MacLerie
And then the moment they do, like they are not able to deal with that new information in a way that doesn't just result in that explosion of emotion. And I think that's what I mean when I talk about like, you know, just not being able to adapt to those challenges of something has come along that has, you know, challenged your view of how a relationship should be or how that power dynamic in a relationship should be in the moment that happens.

00:14:57:21 - 00:15:01:07
Brent MacLerie
But you have no ability to cope or adapt to that new situation.

00:15:01:12 - 00:15:21:03
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, you freak out, you know, being told that you can be honest with someone and then having that honesty met with rage. Women are afraid to actually be honest in some cases, and it makes sense and I, I cannot tell you, oh my God, I would be if I had a nickel for every time I heard this that men say, you know, be honest.

00:15:21:03 - 00:15:44:15
Lisa Sonni
And then they scream at their partner or they can't handle what's being said, they lose their minds. And women are like shaking in the corner, having feeling like they're walking on eggshells, really in their relationships. So I think it's they can't have feelings. Right? That's the common belief. So I'm not allowed to have feelings. You're allowed to have feelings and you're not allowed to scream at me.

00:15:44:17 - 00:16:05:08
Lisa Sonni
And I don't understand why. Like the the ability to have feelings means any feeling, any emotion, any display. And it shouldn't create fear or it shouldn't create a bad reaction. I'm allowed to have feelings and my feelings should be at full volume in your face. Well, I just punched a hole in the wall like, your feelings are scary.

00:16:05:08 - 00:16:06:13
Lisa Sonni
But that's what I think.

00:16:06:15 - 00:16:24:18
Brent MacLerie
Yeah, and the thing is, like, when you talk to men, they understand this. I used to be. I used to be involved with a local church. I used to do a partnership for, for for men. And we'd get in these groups, and it'd be so interesting to me to live here in, like, the deepest red state, you know, conservative Christian Texas, and to have these men and get them in a private room and open up.

00:16:24:18 - 00:16:39:09
Brent MacLerie
And they would say a lot of this stuff. Right? Like, I want to be more emotional. I don't feel like I can say these things. And in part of unpacking their story, they would talk about their fathers and they would talk about exactly that behavior from their fathers. Right. Like that their fathers would flip out, be violent, that they would live in fear.

00:16:39:09 - 00:16:53:06
Brent MacLerie
They would always be scared when dad came home that they would try to stay out of his way. You know, if you heard the door slam, you knew he had a bad day at work and just leave him on the couch with a beer, watching TV, not to be anywhere near him. Like, and you talk about this and you're like, oh my gosh, like, so.

00:16:53:11 - 00:17:10:08
Brent MacLerie
So you get it. You understand what it's like to live in that household, to to be around that man. And then yet at the same time, knowing and recognizing that they see that, that they fall into the same pit and that when they're challenged or when they're stressed or are dealing with these emotions, that is the only way they know to cope.

00:17:10:08 - 00:17:27:13
Brent MacLerie
And then they're like, I know it's wrong, but like, that's how I end up being. I'm like, you not see how you're just like the fear and the shame that you had. You're giving that to the people in your house, your children, your wives, their spouses, your partners. And it's such like they had not connected those two dots a lot of the time.

00:17:27:13 - 00:17:31:15
Brent MacLerie
And that is like, I think that's that's such a wild thing to help them explore.

00:17:31:17 - 00:17:49:11
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. To just because I mean, the thing is, you know, I get asked a lot like, you know, the way that I talk often, like sometimes about men or male fragility or respect or abuse, it's like you're not helping, you're not helping. And I have to admit, I honestly, I think I heard drew for a while, I'll say this once and I was like, I love this comment.

00:17:49:11 - 00:18:11:06
Lisa Sonni
I absolute it's so true. Why do you think I'm trying to help? I realized that's not my job and that's not my goal, and I'm not trying to harm. But I'm allowed to talk about experiences that women have without thinking. If this helps men, I admit I really have this feeling of like, no, you help yourselves. Because when women arguably try to help, we get pushback.

00:18:11:06 - 00:18:28:01
Lisa Sonni
Like, I get called a Sandra every day of my life. I remember the first time I ever heard that word was like semi recently. In fact, it might have been like three years ago. I was like, what? And I had to Google it. I'd never heard it before. And then coincidentally, a few days later, I saw a video that you made and I was like, oh my God, it's like it's all coming together.

00:18:28:06 - 00:18:53:03
Lisa Sonni
But the even the understanding of what a misandry is versus what a misogynist is and the comparison and actually, to quote drew again, she has often said misandry isn't real, but if it is, it's a response to misogyny. And I was like, that's the most perfect definition I've ever heard, because the hatred of men the way that I think, you know, if if it showed up the way that misogyny did, that would be a real problem, obviously.

00:18:53:03 - 00:19:09:15
Lisa Sonni
But it tends to be like, we don't want to help the people that are harming us. I tried to help someone for a decade. I nearly died doing it, so I've kind of given up. But I do love the work that a lot of men do, such as yourself, that are actually trying to help men to make those kind of connections.

00:19:09:20 - 00:19:25:09
Lisa Sonni
When I think of something like the criticism, right, that you if you say to a man who's abusive or toxic or whatever, if you say you know, hey, this hurt me, it's like, oh, so I'm a piece of crap. Holy man, how we take such a leap. Why do you think that happens? What's going on in their minds.

00:19:25:14 - 00:19:45:12
Brent MacLerie
Oooph. I think like, yeah, I think at the core of it is that inability to accept challenge or criticism. Right. How many times have you seen a video or we heard men talk about, I want her to be my piece, right? You're nagging me. You should leave me alone. Like they they really struggle with it. And I think they talk about I often say that we write men.

00:19:45:16 - 00:20:05:21
Brent MacLerie
We talk about it often is like respect, right? That it all stems from this idea of if you respected me, you wouldn't challenge me. If you respected me, you just accept my view. And I think is like, that's a complete misunderstanding of what respect is. If you respect someone, you should feel safe around them, right? You can't if you don't want it to give you criticism.

00:20:05:21 - 00:20:21:15
Brent MacLerie
I was in, you know, an employment situation. I had a boss, and I feared giving him criticism because he was going to lash out. I don't respect him. I fear if I respected them, it would be that sense of I can go to them with criticism and questions. I can say, hey, that decision didn't make sense to me.

00:20:21:15 - 00:20:41:16
Brent MacLerie
Can you explain why you did that? Or, hey, I don't like the way that we're doing this. I feel unsafe when you do this. Is there a way that we can change? Like you could have those grown up conversations with somebody you respect and they don't. I think we don't kind of get that because we're taught again from that, that sense of and I think we take this from the individual into systems.

00:20:41:16 - 00:21:05:06
Brent MacLerie
Right. And like this is where we start spinning out into like what, what patriarchy instills into us in teaches us right, is that men are the head of the household. They're unquestionable. We're still kind of carrying over a lot of like this coverture idea of men own everything in the household as property and so, well, if I'm above you and I own you, I am beyond reproach, I'm beyond criticism, and I can settle into that role.

00:21:05:08 - 00:21:25:13
Brent MacLerie
So there's no expectation that the other people in the household should criticize me. And so when it is criticism, well, then that's why everything starts to unravel, announced by all, because this whole kind of pyramid scheme topples down, because now I'm no longer now I'm no longer this, this godlike figure who's unquestionable on top of everything. Now I have to deal with, like, oh, am I doing something wrong?

00:21:25:14 - 00:21:35:07
Brent MacLerie
Is there something I could be doing better? That's nice. Now we're starting to talk about a partnership. Right now. We're starting to talk about compromise and all of those difficult conversations that we don't want to deal with. We want to avoid.

00:21:35:11 - 00:21:55:17
Lisa Sonni
Like I, what you're describing is like respect is deference, right. That's. Yeah. So just and I mean, you see it a lot in like the men as leaders and heads of household. It's you know, we default to him and defer to his decisions. I so remember this conversation with my accident was towards the end and he was like, you don't even respect me.

00:21:55:22 - 00:22:13:14
Lisa Sonni
And I remember I was about to defend I remember opening my mouth and sort of, you know, you're right. But that was nine years in and quite close to the end, in fact. But I remember, you know, I was like, I wanted to say, I do respect you. I don't though. And then it started making me think, well, why why don't I he's he's absolutely right.

00:22:13:19 - 00:22:33:15
Lisa Sonni
You do nothing that's respectful. You haven't led us well, you know, like he couldn't lead our way out of a paper bag. Honestly, a wet paper bag, in fact. And. And he wasn't respectful towards me, towards our family. There was nothing like why. And I realized years later, you know, it hit me like a ton of bricks. And it's so obvious.

00:22:33:15 - 00:22:50:00
Lisa Sonni
Of course, now is like you expected that you felt entitled to your version of respect. No matter how you show up, no matter what you put into this, no matter what you say or do, your behavior is absolutely irrelevant. You deserve it because you're a man. That's it. Very fragile.

00:22:50:05 - 00:23:08:23
Brent MacLerie
No, I mean, that's a great point. I like it, and this is the thing I kind of person and reiterate with these men is obviously when they're in that, they're like, oh, my family doesn't respect me. I'm like, respect is earned. Respect comes from character. It comes from that decision making. It comes from the principles you show. It comes from somebody coming to you with a question and you respecting their side of the story.

00:23:08:23 - 00:23:33:12
Brent MacLerie
Being able to give wisdom and insight like these are like the qualities we think of when we think of respect. When you talk about like like you should trust everything. I say without question, like that's here. Fear is what you're forcing on people. And I think what we're not willing to accept and talk about is it's so intrinsically tied into this idea that the only way you motivate people in our society, like the way we teach, is through violence and fear.

00:23:33:17 - 00:23:52:19
Brent MacLerie
Those are the two pieces. If you're empathetic, if you're compassionate, you're weak, you're being abused. They're taking advantage of you, right? You like any time you give and they're like, oh, well, you're going to be taken advantage of. You think, now maybe I'm just wanting to understand something the other side of the story. Maybe I'm just wanting to hear I could be wrong.

00:23:52:23 - 00:24:14:18
Brent MacLerie
Right. And and we've taken that that violence and that fear, and then we've instilled it into our family unit and our relationships. And that is what we've used now to to decide what respect is, is that you should you should. You're challenging. You should be thinking twice about about challenging me or about trying to go against my rules.

00:24:14:18 - 00:24:20:16
Brent MacLerie
You know, the rules of my house, right? You know how I expect you to dress like. Oh.

00:24:20:18 - 00:24:41:04
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. There's an expectation and, and I think really at the root of this is an entitlement as well. Like to the respect to that kind of treatment to being the provider, the leader, the whatever. That's just what is expected. Where does this really come from. Like even the concept that respect really to men seems to be fear. They just don't quite see it that way.

00:24:41:04 - 00:24:45:23
Lisa Sonni
Where do you actually, if you're getting into the root of this big question, I know.

00:24:46:01 - 00:25:16:00
Brent MacLerie
Yeah. I mean, for me, like it's the more I dig into this and the more I like research this material and make these videos and, and talk about this, I cannot step away from the sense that this, this all comes from, like I say, the the old long traditions of patriarchy, of what was called Patrick Familias in like the Roman times, where there was this elder head of the household who owned everything, and we then enshrined those as laws through common law, through a laws called coverture.

00:25:16:00 - 00:25:43:11
Brent MacLerie
Right? Men owned all of the wages that women and women were property. You know, if they ran away from the house, they would put out newspaper ads saying, you know, do not trust this woman when she's run out of the household. And, and, you know, she's no longer under my cover because she's contradicting me, because there was this expectation that in a marriage, a wife could go, like, buy and sell things and do trade under the idea that she was an agent of her husband so that they were aligned.

00:25:43:16 - 00:25:59:21
Brent MacLerie
But the moment that she was not aligned with him right when she wanted to her own thing to be cast out from the household and like, say, these adverts would be put in the paper of, you know, there's this, you know, unruly wife, right? And all of this stuff. And I think like as much as like we don't like that seems so irrelevant to what we've got now.

00:25:59:21 - 00:26:18:14
Brent MacLerie
I think so much of those attitudes are just baked into our society that we've still kept all of that. And this idea of, I'm only going to protect women who agree with me. I'm only going to protect women that I benefit from. I'm only going to provide for them. And we see it not just like in relationships here, where we talk about like when there's a challenger, there's criticism.

00:26:18:14 - 00:26:36:07
Brent MacLerie
But think about like child support, like the huge one, right? The moment that the wife and the child are outside of my household. Well, I don't see the point in paying for why am I paying all this money? I need to know every bill. Like there's so many of these discussions around manhood and providing and protecting that end the moment.

00:26:36:07 - 00:27:00:03
Brent MacLerie
She doesn't get basically like you talked about, like a subservient person who is different to them and just praises them. I'm like, it's such a loss to me when we talk about relationships for men, because you no longer have a whole other person to help you, to support you, to be a partner and to take that load. And they put it all on themselves and then turn around and say, well, I have all this weight on me.

00:27:00:05 - 00:27:10:20
Brent MacLerie
You don't know what it's like to be me. I have to do all of these things. I'm the provider and you're like, you have a willing partner who would take these things if you met them

00:27:10:22 - 00:27:39:13
Aishia Grevenberg
...so I'm also a survivor of domestic violence. And to have that lived experience while I'm actually working in mental how not only was I working in mental health, I was on television talking about domestic violence, going home, dealing with domestic violence. And so there was a duality to my experience that I think is pretty unique and gives me a lot to sort of talk about because I had to heal as I was working.

00:27:39:16 - 00:28:03:23
Aishia Grevenberg
So I was working in healing at the same time, and there was a lot that went into that. And now I do solely private practice. My practice is virtual. I work with people all over the world, primarily with women all over the world who are trying to come to terms with these type of relationships. So I have my experience and then their experience and we're learning and growing together.

00:28:04:01 - 00:28:06:05
Aishia Grevenberg
So it's definitely something I enjoy talking about.

00:28:06:10 - 00:28:16:01
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. Tell me that you know what you're describing this talking on TV and talking about domestic violence. Did you not know that that was your situation? Did you sort of separate yourself from that?

00:28:16:06 - 00:28:44:01
Aishia Grevenberg
I didn't want to admit that it was happening to me. And now when I work with women who were similar to me, professional, top of their career, making money, the idea that I'm a victim was not something I could wrap my mind around. Do you know what I mean? And I you know, I told myself that each episode was isolated, that it wasn't domestic violence because it happened last year and nothing happened since then.

00:28:44:01 - 00:29:03:23
Aishia Grevenberg
Do you know what I mean? So I could rationalize that this was happening to other women, women that had to live in shelters, women that had to like, run for their lives. Even though that was my story. When I tried to leave in that moment, I was living a Facebook life. I was living a Facebook life, and I just couldn't accept that this was happening to me.

00:29:04:04 - 00:29:20:01
Lisa Sonni
So I wasn't in the field of domestic violence or mental health, but I also was like playing the role and I would, you know, do my job. And I was known to be assertive, to say the least, in my, in my work. And then I would go home and I'm getting abuse. I swear, people that knew me back then would be like, no way.

00:29:20:01 - 00:29:41:23
Lisa Sonni
They would never, never guess that what I was trying to do in this sort of form of denial that you're even talking about, like, that's not me, because it was this one incident. It was last year. It was for this reason I was so convinced that it was not that bad. The word abuse did not even come into my brain until I was out like six, seven months when I was in it.

00:29:41:23 - 00:29:58:04
Lisa Sonni
Not once. I never even considered that it was abuse. It was just mean or not nice or a mood or whatever. I spent the whole entire time trying to figure him out, understand him, fix him, and the whole time I'm really just making excuses.

00:29:58:09 - 00:30:20:06
Aishia Grevenberg
Exactly. I was the exact same way. And the challenge for me, and I think for a lot of women is I thought if I explained things to him only if I use my therapy voice, if I helped him to understand that his behavior was hurting me, I thought that he would connect the two. And oh, I don't want to hurt the person I love, so I'm going to stop doing this.

00:30:20:06 - 00:30:42:12
Aishia Grevenberg
Do you know what I mean? And you know, I turned into a lawyer. All these exhibits like this and this, and I'm not doing that. And you accuse me of this, and that's not happening. And here's my phone. Check my phone. I'm not doing. You know what I mean? All of these ways that I was trying to present evidence to him, to get him to see that his behavior was harmful and we had this amazing life if he would just stop.

00:30:42:15 - 00:31:02:10
Aishia Grevenberg
Do you know what I mean? Like, how is this hard? Like you kindergarten? You learned to kindergarten. Keep your hands to yourself. Do you know what I mean? And so when I work with women now and they tell me, well, I've explained to him, I told him, I talked to his mom, I talked to his brother. It's this effort of communication, thinking that this is a communication issue.

00:31:02:10 - 00:31:07:17
Aishia Grevenberg
Right? We're having a communication barrier. He doesn't understand me. He heard you, right.

00:31:07:18 - 00:31:25:12
Lisa Sonni
Hurt you? Yeah, he hurt you. It's clear. It's like the biggest lie we tell ourselves now that he just doesn't understand. And I'm always like, babe, listen, what if he understands and he doesn't care? Like, just sit with that for a second. What if that's what's really going on? That he absolutely understand. He sees tears coming out of your eyeballs.

00:31:25:14 - 00:31:43:08
Lisa Sonni
He hears the words you're saying. We're all speaking the same language. And they that sort of that fake. I don't get it. I don't understand why you're so mad. That keeps you. Because you keep trying to explain and to fix. But where does that come from? That's where I want to, like, use that, you know, put on your therapy hat and tell me what?

00:31:43:10 - 00:31:46:04
Lisa Sonni
Where did we learn that we have to heal someone else?

00:31:46:09 - 00:32:08:07
Aishia Grevenberg
I think a lot of it is misunderstanding what love is. I think that's number one. And I think it's very hard for women to understand that a person and not love you and harm you, because then we have to go back to our primary relationships. And I'm basically telling a woman, your mom didn't love you, how is that supposed to sit with someone?

00:32:08:09 - 00:32:26:00
Aishia Grevenberg
Or your father didn't love you? He left. He didn't love you. So this idea of how can someone say they love me and hurt me at the same time? Now we're getting a little bit more complicated and vulnerable because the question is, Will did that. My parents love me. That my siblings love me, you know? Do my friends love me?

00:32:26:06 - 00:32:50:07
Aishia Grevenberg
And it's very hard for us to understand that love and abuse do not coexist. And so to accept that now, that is where the difficulty is, because now I have to go all the way back and unpacked. I don't know what love is. Have you ever truly been loved? That's deep, that's deep. It's very deep. And then as girls and there are all types of people in this type of situation.

00:32:50:11 - 00:33:08:18
Aishia Grevenberg
But the idea is, if I can make you proud of me, if I can make you see that I'm a good girl, if I can make you see that, you know, I'm going to go to college. All these things of trying to be perfect, to get our parents to show us the type of attention and love that we needed.

00:33:08:21 - 00:33:29:19
Aishia Grevenberg
When that is there, then that's how we show up in every relationship. We try to perform to get love. It's a performance because the belief is the way I am is not enough. The way I show up isn't enough. Like just me being me on Tuesday. No makeup, you know what I mean? Sweatshirt. That part of me isn't worthy of love.

00:33:29:21 - 00:33:52:10
Aishia Grevenberg
I have to be this professional. I have to explain things perfect for you just to love me and respect you don't want. We don't know what love is. That's number one. We don't know what love is. And it's. It's hard. Then I think there is this desire to make people feel something. We want people. We want to be able to control how people feel.

00:33:52:12 - 00:34:15:07
Aishia Grevenberg
We want to be able to control how people see us. And so a lot of it is that we we want people to have this impression of us. And so we think we can make that happen when in all honesty, it's a person's choice how they feel about you. It really is. But every every message that we receive is that if we present ourselves a certain way, then you're going to have a certain life, right?

00:34:15:07 - 00:34:35:18
Aishia Grevenberg
Period. And the messaging that we receive I receive is Gen X. I always talk about this is if you're thin, if you don't have no mouth, especially as a black woman, if you ain't got an attitude and you ain't doing all this, then period. If you're not talking like that, if you're a respectful, you cover your body, you know, then you are going to have a certain life.

00:34:36:00 - 00:34:57:14
Aishia Grevenberg
And the the narrative is that you will be rewarded for being demure. You will be rewarded for not having multiple partners. There's a reward for that. And so you have to chase this carrot, this patriarchal carrot that says if you perform the reward as a good man, he's going to have money and he's going to take care of you.

00:34:57:14 - 00:35:19:07
Aishia Grevenberg
That's the narrative. And that a lot of that goes into the way we experience ourselves. And it's this narrative of, If I'm good, then good things will happen to me. And that sets us up for a world of hurt in every area of our lives, not just in relationships, but at work and friendships and every area of our life.

00:35:19:07 - 00:35:38:01
Aishia Grevenberg
We are vulnerable because we believe we can control the outcome if we control our behavior. And that's the message that we're given. Until you realize I don't have control over other people, they have a right to feel how they want to feel and think how they want to think. And I can influence that. I really can influence that.

00:35:38:03 - 00:35:49:18
Aishia Grevenberg
But it doesn't register until you hit that wall several times to understand. I cannot control another person. That's a hard lesson to learn in life. And that and.

00:35:49:20 - 00:35:58:04
Lisa Sonni
And tell me what led you to actually coined that term traumatic cognitive dissonance? What's different from regular cognitive dissonance to you?

00:35:58:09 - 00:36:27:20
Dr. Peter Salerno
Yeah, I'm just referring to this sort of dissonance. That's we'll say traumatic because it's not just like an internal clash based on something, you know, benign or even the discomfort of it isn't necessarily related to something that originates in our selves. It manifests as a result of being intentionally manipulated, coerced, and sort of messed with psychologically by somebody whose intentions are to create the perception in you that you're confused when actually you're not confused.

00:36:27:20 - 00:36:46:12
Dr. Peter Salerno
Right. It's not a confusion that's originating inside of you. So I feel like that's a bit more of a traumatic internal clash because you're essentially developing contradictory beliefs, not because you don't have the ability to understand what's going on, because that ability is being compromised by somebody screwing with you, essentially.

00:36:46:17 - 00:37:13:12
Lisa Sonni
So it's interesting because I don't know, like as a, as a coach from where I said this constant, like, he can't be doing it on purpose. They're not really trying to confuse me. Right. And in my experience, both my personal experience and my professional experience, it is on purpose. That's the goal. Confusion serves a real purpose here. So the manipulation and that sort of mixed message, the hot, the cold, he loves me and he cheats on me or I realize she as well.

00:37:13:14 - 00:37:17:12
Lisa Sonni
It's manufactured, right? This confusion is something that is intentional.

00:37:17:18 - 00:37:38:22
Dr. Peter Salerno
I think 100%. I think there are people there are people who exist. Whether we want to believe it or not, because it it affects our preferred idea of what human beings are all about. But I believe there are people out there who have a predatory nature, and they enter into relationships specifically for the purpose of intentionally gaining an advantage over someone.

00:37:38:22 - 00:37:57:00
Dr. Peter Salerno
And the best way to gain an advantage over someone is to get them to question their reality and sort of mess with them in a way where they are not completely sure what's going on. They also don't have any evidence to prove it because it's invisible. And but yeah, I mean, there's an intentionality to to this for sure.

00:37:57:02 - 00:38:15:11
Lisa Sonni
I think that's the one of the hardest parts though, to to really believe. When I think back to my own experience, even like on purpose, it just feels like. And what I hear often is that this person isn't smart enough. I don't know if you hear that even in your work, like, my partner's not smart enough to be this manipulative or this strategic.

00:38:15:16 - 00:38:20:10
Lisa Sonni
And I think for me, I see it as more instinctual. Is that how you see it?

00:38:20:13 - 00:38:37:22
Dr. Peter Salerno
100%? First of all, there really is no correlation between intelligence and manipulation. You don't have to be intelligent to be a good manipulator. That's not really where it stems from. It's not about being like a master manipulator or like a mad genius. It's really more about I'm going to throw a bunch of stuff out and see what sticks, you know?

00:38:37:22 - 00:39:06:20
Dr. Peter Salerno
So a lot of it is there, almost like conducting these social experiments with your mind and heart as they go along. It's not always premeditated in the sense that the manipulation is premeditated, but the strategy is sometimes spur of the moment. Like, what can I get away with here? What can I try? And I've even seen this in clinical practice with some clients who are highly manipulative, like they're going to lead me down a track or try to lead me down a track where let me see what I can say to to get the response that I want.

00:39:07:00 - 00:39:28:09
Dr. Peter Salerno
You know, I would say that certain people across the board are doing this with everybody from the person you know, from the cashier at the grocery store to the, you know, the person at the bank to their significant other. It's almost like their way, like you said, it's this instinctual way of being. It's in their nature to be very manipulative and coercive, and it's 100% intentional because it seems to work for them.

00:39:28:14 - 00:39:46:06
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. Well, so something I hear a lot too is why do they all have the same playbook? You know, if I make a video and like, do a skit or something and show what someone says often, not always, but I'm using personal experiences and people are like, oh my God, that's my person. That happened to me. He said the same thing.

00:39:46:06 - 00:40:06:13
Lisa Sonni
They said the same thing. What makes it, you know, if there's a joke like the Narcissist University, they all go to the same university and they learn how to do this. But what you're describing is sort of this social test, the strategy. I'm going to say this and see if it gets me that reaction. So do you think that they're using life experiences even over multiple relationships?

00:40:06:13 - 00:40:11:21
Lisa Sonni
And it's like they know that certain things work. Or do they study you to manipulate you?

00:40:11:23 - 00:40:40:11
Dr. Peter Salerno
Yeah, I think it's both. I think the idea that it's like they've all attended the same university or have the same education or mindset is a great way to also validate the the argument that I make a lot, which is that this has to do with these innate traits, and they're universal traits, you know, they have the people who are problematic seem to have the same or similar like levels of these pathological traits that happen to be antagonistic, manipulative, coercive, right.

00:40:40:12 - 00:41:04:00
Dr. Peter Salerno
And like this, this need for controlling people and getting them to do what you want. So I think it's a way of being for them, you know, it's sort of like a lot of people. The way of being for a lot of people is, how can I be the most generous, kind, altruistic. There's other people out there that are like, how can I be conniving and cunning and manipulative enough to get what I want without necessarily needing to be accountable for it?

00:41:04:05 - 00:41:16:00
Dr. Peter Salerno
So to them, it is a playbook, and I think they see relationships often as a game too. It's like a win lose. It's not a how do I connect best with this person, but what do I get from it? And then how can I get what I want from it?

00:41:16:06 - 00:41:44:15
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, it's so exploitative, right? When you are in this relationship thinking, what can I get from this relationship? Or combined or worse, I deserve to get from this relationship and I don't have to give. I always feel like reciprocity is just chucked right out the window. It's not about that at all. And yet they're nice sometimes. And I really like that's the piece that I think is so confusing, is that we think that that contrast means they're nice sometimes and they're mean sometimes.

00:41:44:15 - 00:42:03:08
Lisa Sonni
So it's from trauma and it's their mom was mean or whatever. We don't actually see it as a strategy, especially if we're seeing it as something like they're not smart enough, which arguably some are. But again, it's not about intelligence, no more than why we stay. It has to do with our own intelligence. I think there's a lot more going on here.

00:42:03:10 - 00:42:23:19
Lisa Sonni
But the piece that is, I think the hardest to believe is that the contrast in their behaviors is not an accident. People see this as your good and so you do bad things as opposed to you're a bad person who's pretending to be kind. It's like too hard to hold that belief. What makes that so hard for people, do you think?

00:42:24:00 - 00:42:48:07
Dr. Peter Salerno
Yeah, I was going to ask you the same question. I think what we're taught about human beings is if somebody is being manipulative or if they're harming someone, it's coming from a place of defense, like they're protecting something in themselves. There's a vulnerability or an insecurity that needs to be masked or, you know, not dealt with. And so it's like a lashing out because of a reaction or a response, because they're feeling threatened.

00:42:48:07 - 00:43:09:07
Dr. Peter Salerno
And I think that we're taught that at an early age. I think that we're taught that in the institutions we attend, whether it's school, definitely psychology. Psychology operates off the premise that people only do things because, you know, they feel like they're backed into a corner or they're threatened or they're compensating. It's not true. But that's what that's the narrative we've been fed since we were little.

00:43:09:11 - 00:43:29:17
Dr. Peter Salerno
And then I know other institutions, like if you're raised in a religious institution, you know, where there's a certain you know, it's like giving everyone the benefit of the doubt. Everyone's basically good. They just, you know, they're wayward because something bad happened and you can steer them in the right direction. I think there's all kinds of associations made with it, like it's coming from this place of defensiveness or hurt.

00:43:29:22 - 00:43:49:06
Dr. Peter Salerno
There's just not a lot of evidence to really back that up. I think there's people who are not disordered who can create confusion on purpose. I don't think it's because they're traumatized. I think that I would appreciate if people could start seeing trauma as like a risk factor that exacerbates something that's already there, rather than it being like the end all, be all cause of anything that's going wrong.

00:43:49:10 - 00:44:18:21
Dr. Peter Salerno
So for example, like a bully on the playground or someone who takes someone's cookie from their lunch every day, or someone who takes lunch money, they're not blindly going into that. And engaging because they have some deep seated pain, and they just need to express it in that way. I mean, that's just that's kind of silly to think that everybody who tries to gain an advantage over someone, even children, that they're really just like wounded or they don't know better or they're operating completely unconsciously or they're having trouble at home.

00:44:19:01 - 00:44:36:13
Dr. Peter Salerno
I know that teachers and nurses and people who interact with children on a daily basis, I don't think any of them truly believe that across the board, but we're almost expected to give that narrative. Well, you don't know what's going on at home with them or, you know, well, they don't have as much money as you. So that's why they need to they need to steal your lunch.

00:44:36:18 - 00:44:38:09
Lisa Sonni
It's like making excuses.

00:44:38:11 - 00:44:41:09
Dr. Peter Salerno
Making excuses...

00:44:41:11 - 00:45:05:02
Lisa Sonni
Whooough, I want you to really just sit with what you heard today. The truth is no one of these experts are saying anything extreme. Nothing that you heard here should be controversial. All four of them just said the quiet parts out loud. Maybe some parts that you've been denying. Abusers want you to think that you just need to be more understanding, more supportive, less combative.

00:45:05:04 - 00:45:29:06
Lisa Sonni
It's always you. They avoid accountability by shifting the blame to you. It always becomes you're not trying hard enough, right? But this this is about patterns and behavior. That's what I want you to focus on. This is really about what someone in your life is willing to just keep doing to you over and over. When they absolutely do understand, they're going to keep doing it even though it hurts you.

00:45:29:10 - 00:45:46:21
Lisa Sonni
That's what matters. If something in this episode clicked for you, don't ignore that. Hold on to that. Trust what you're seeing. And I've linked all of these episodes in the description, so if you want to go back and watch the full episodes, I really invite you to go do that. Thanks so much for watching this episode of the podcast.

00:45:46:21 - 00:46:07:23
Lisa Sonni
And listen. For those that don't know this, you can actually work with me one on one. You can work with me in my group coaching programs, and I also host an online survivor community called She Rises Collective. You can join this community and get 24/7 support, access to workshops, special events, all kinds of incredible things to make you feel supported all the time.

00:46:08:00 - 00:46:22:01
Lisa Sonni
Thanks for watching! Real talk with Lisa Sunny relationships uncensored. If this episode gave you clarity, share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember you're stronger than before.

00:46:22:03 - 00:46:26:06
Unknown
Stronger than before.