How Abusive Men Make You Think You're the Abuser | Emma Davey | S4E2

If you have ever wondered whether you are the toxic one, the narcissist, the problem…that question is not a coincidence, it was put there on purpose.

Lisa sits down with Emma Davey, trauma-informed counsellor and master's candidate in the psychology of coercive and controlling behaviour, to break down exactly how abusive men flip the script. Together they walk through how self-blame gets installed from the very beginning, why the fawn response has so many women working overtime to manage someone else's mood, and what DARVO actually looks like in real time inside a relationship and in court.

They also get into the fight response, the moment you finally explode after months or years of being poked, prodded, and worn down, and why that moment gets weaponized as proof that you are the unstable one. Emma is clear: that reaction does not make you the abuser, it makes you human. Your nervous system was doing exactly what it was built to do.

One of the most important reframes in this conversation is also one of the simplest. The person genuinely causing harm is not lying awake at night wondering if they are hurting you. They are not on YouTube looking for answers. You are. And that tells you everything you need to know.

Resources mentioned:

• Mynara app by Emma Davey (evidence tracking, disguised as a calculator)
• My Trauma Therapy: mytraumatherapy.co.uk

Transcript

00:00:00:13 - 00:00:08:18
Speaker 1


00:00:08:20 - 00:00:17:11
Lisa Sonni
This is real talk with Lisa Sonni: Relationships Uncensored, the podcast they don't want you listening to.

00:00:17:13 - 00:00:45:04
Lisa Sonni
There is something that I hear so often from women just over and over again about wondering if they are the toxic one, if they're the narcissist, if they are the abuser, or even if it's mutually abusive, if they're both causing problems and it's so common. But it's not necessarily because you are controlling or actually abusive, but abusive men are actually really good at flipping the script on you and dragging you into thinking that you're the problem when that's not the case.

00:00:45:04 - 00:01:05:23
Lisa Sonni
Because there is no such thing as mutual abuse. There can be mutual toxicity, of course, but let's talk about the ways that this can happen, the different methods and tactics used against people. I'm going to introduce my guest. I'm so excited to have you here, Emma Davey, we've actually done a project together. We were both in a film called I Love You My Narcissist, coming out in 2026.

00:01:05:23 - 00:01:11:10
Lisa Sonni
But Emma, I would love for you to introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about who you are. Thank you. Lisa, for having me.

00:01:11:10 - 00:01:31:23
Emma Davey
So my name is Emma Davey. I'm a trauma informed MBA CP counselor based in the UK. I'm also currently in the final stage of doing my master's degree in Psychology of Coercive and Controlling Behavior. So very intense. But I work with victims that have suffered coercive control and domestic abuse and of course, narcissistic abuse.

00:01:32:00 - 00:01:49:15
Lisa Sonni
I'm so glad to see a therapist who has been through it that's actually treating people for this specific thing, because I know that lived experience makes it a little bit easier to understand. It's of course unfortunate that anybody has gone through this, but I'm sure that it helps you understand your clients a lot better, which is such a good thing.

00:01:49:17 - 00:01:54:22
Lisa Sonni
You must see this often, right? Where somebody comes to you and they're like, am I the problem? Am I the abuser.

00:01:55:00 - 00:02:16:03
Emma Davey
All the time? I think anyone that's experienced this type of abuse will always question, is it me? Am I doing something wrong or am I contributing to this? And also being told by the abuser that yes, you are the problem. You are doing this. So you're you're being so heavily gaslit all the time that you are the problem.

00:02:16:03 - 00:02:37:21
Emma Davey
So you start to think, well, if I am the problem then let's find the solution. So that's when you start to go into phone and start to people, please try to do everything you possibly can to try and make the abuser love you again. Like make him love you like he did at the very beginning because he was fine when you met him, he was Mr. Perfect, right?

00:02:37:21 - 00:02:59:07
Emma Davey
So it must be me that's changed him because he's so wonderful. And that's what people keep referring to is always the beginning. And then as you're being chipped away at, it's your fault you've done this look at you that you really start to internalize and try and find the problem within yourself, to try and find the solution to make yourself safe.

00:02:59:10 - 00:03:06:06
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, I find they don't just hurt you, they change the way you think. They change the way you see yourself.

00:03:06:11 - 00:03:27:18
Emma Davey
Absolutely, yes. And that's because they're breaking you, you know, with coercive, controlling behavior. They don't. It's not designed to break your bones. It's designed to break your mind. So the way that you used to think is no longer the way that you think now, because you are being molded into the version that the abuser wants you to be and to believe. it's

00:03:27:18 - 00:03:48:14
Lisa Sonni
an absolute worst. You know, you get molded into this thing and you don't even realize it's happening. I think it's really interesting how they get you to see yourself as the problem. the way that so able to just take that on. And you're right that it's very much related to the beginning of the relationship, because when he was kind, you almost can't imagine him being any other way.

00:03:48:14 - 00:04:00:12
Lisa Sonni
So if he's changed, there must be a reason. I also think that it's easier for us to think that we're the problem, because then we can control it. If I'm the problem, I can change. If he's the problem, I have no control over that.

00:04:00:13 - 00:04:24:12
Emma Davey
And you want to believe that it's you at some point, because then, as you say, you've got some control of change in things and you fell in love with a version that doesn't exist. So I always say, you fall in love with the ghost. That person is never coming back. But when you're in it's really hard to see that you're in an abusive relationship because it's not abusive.

00:04:24:12 - 00:04:47:20
Emma Davey
100% of the time You're having good days. You're having moments. Now, obviously, as the relationship goes on, you're seeing the good moments less and less and less. So you are being starved of so much love and affection that when you get fed a breadcrumb, you're literally being fulfilled so much and getting all the oxytocin dopamine hits that you'll accept that.

00:04:47:20 - 00:05:09:14
Emma Davey
And then when it goes back again of them being nasty and foreign born abusive, you then will try everything you can to get back another bit of crumb of affection. So you take that responsibility on yourself to do that. We don't look at the narcissist and think, why are you not giving this to me? We look at what can we do to try and get that person back.

00:05:09:14 - 00:05:31:06
Emma Davey
So we take that responsibility on ourselves to make sure we look nice, to make sure the kids are ready and we learn our role and we perfect it so well. And internally we're doing it to make ourselves safe. But externally we're probably just doing it so we get some form of perfection and love and to have a good day.

00:05:31:07 - 00:05:52:08
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. You get some of that nice guy back when you do that. Like the reward for surviving for for complying, for being maybe not always submissive. You know, I know that word gets thrown out around a lot, but just being agreeable, you know, not being combative, not questioning. You always get rewards with good behavior. And he's kinder that week or whatever.

00:05:52:08 - 00:06:07:05
Lisa Sonni
And then it makes you keep going. Now, you mentioned something about fawning, and I feel like we constantly talk about fight or flight. And the fawn response, I think is incredibly common and the least understood. Can you talk a little bit about the fan response?

00:06:07:05 - 00:06:32:15
Emma Davey
The phone response is a trauma response, and it happens when you're in an abusive relationship and you are constantly trying to appease the narcissist, you are trying to please them. You will make sure that you are on time or you look a certain way. So you're constantly scanning your environment and yourself to make sure that everything is perfect so that nothing upsets them.

00:06:32:15 - 00:06:54:22
Emma Davey
So it's constantly walking on eggshells, but also making sure that everything is right for them. Because if they're happy, then it's going to be a little bit easier. So you might notice it if they are coming home from work. So you know that half five they're going to be coming up the driveway. The hoovering is done, the clean is done, the washing away.

00:06:54:23 - 00:07:22:01
Emma Davey
The kids have been fed. The kids have done their homework. You know, you feel this surge of energy of like scanning everything. Everything's perfect. So when he walks through the door and he he kind of looks around they always pick something though, just to make sure to put you back in that place of you're not good enough, but your body is in the form of response, of trying to appease the narcissist to make sure that you are safe when walks through that door.

00:07:22:02 - 00:07:49:07
Emma Davey
And this has happened over months, years of him coming home and him picking something and then throwing the food across the room because it's too cold or it hasn't been cooked properly, or the kids are not ready or whatever it is, you would have learned this through consequences and embedded fear. So you might not even realize you're doing this, but you are in a fawn response.

00:07:49:07 - 00:08:09:22
Lisa Sonni
I want people to really think about that. You know, there's this feeling of like, I need to manage a mood. I need to change something. I need to clean that sort of frantic feeling. I once made a video of, you know, you hear the garage open or, you know, you hear them coming home, the key in the door, and you leap off the couch and run around and try to tidy up.

00:08:09:23 - 00:08:28:16
Lisa Sonni
That would be a perfect example of a fond response. It's this need to appease them so that nothing bad happens. And I know from the outside, people look at that. They're like, why is she making his dinner? If he's abusive and I feel like she's making his dinner because he's abusive to me, it makes sense when you've experienced it.

00:08:28:17 - 00:08:52:13
Lisa Sonni
You know, the way that we cater to and fawn over someone who's terrible to us creates confusion in ourselves, too, of like, it's true, you know, if he's so bad. Why do I do this? He's controlling your behavior, but he's also controlling your interpretation of yourself and him even planting little seeds that you're too sensitive or you misunderstand things.

00:08:52:13 - 00:08:56:13
Lisa Sonni
You are the problem. You see that constantly through gaslighting.

00:08:56:14 - 00:09:16:18
Emma Davey
And thus, again, why you go into the phone response is because you've been told you can't cook. This is disgusting. You can't clean. Look at you. You're a mess. So you've had all of this stuff embedded in you. So you're you're now taking the responsibility of, I've got to do better. need to cook this correctly. I've got to make sure I dress correctly.

00:09:16:18 - 00:09:51:14
Emma Davey
I've got to do this. I've got to do that because you are, again, taking the responsibility of fixing these things that you're being told that you're not good enough So if I can just cook, right, if I can dress correctly, then I won't be abused. Then he'll love me more. Then I would have done better. So you kind of go back in that childlike state of pleasing, and especially if you've come from an abusive family or an abusive parent, then this is very normal behavior of fawning, because it's how you have to do better for others as opposed to for yourself.

00:09:51:15 - 00:10:15:07
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. You know, I always talk about conditioning in these relationships, but the truth is, we can be so conditioned prior to that. If you come from an inconsistent childhood or even neglect not necessarily abuse in the sense of how we use it, but emotional neglect and and taught to perform for love, taught to be helpful or quiet or kind and forgiving, as many women are.

00:10:15:07 - 00:10:42:18
Lisa Sonni
And then you end up in a relationship like this and it's like, oh my God, how did I get here? But here we are. I don't think women enter these relationships confused, but we definitely become confused in them. Now, I was mentioning gaslighting. There is a tactic that I know over the last few years has become a little bit more popular to talk about, but I'm big advocate because I think it's something that happens in so many abusive relationships, and women don't have the language for it.

00:10:42:19 - 00:11:06:00
Lisa Sonni
Doctor Jennifer Freyd coined the term called DARVO actually had her on the podcast a couple of seasons ago. We were talking about another term she coined called “betrayal blindness.” But DARVO deny attack, reverse victim and offender. And once people start to really understand what it is, usually I see people go, “Oh my God, yes, I've experienced this.” Tell me what your experience is

00:11:06:00 - 00:11:11:00
Lisa Sonni
with your clients. Seeing DARVO, seeing people go, “Oh man, that's happening to me.”

00:11:11:03 - 00:11:34:05
Emma Davey
But luckily in the UK now, DARVO is recognized in the Family and Criminal Court. And I think the Family Court is so important because we see this a lot in court, where you've got the abuser going to court, pretending to be the victim and the victim actually being perceived as the perpetrator. But obviously with fat fines and evidence, we can prove it.

00:11:34:05 - 00:11:54:22
Emma Davey
But yes, it's being recognized now as this is a thing, which is good. But yeah, it's abusers are very, very clever when it comes to an audience. They know how to act. They know how to, you know, kind of put their head down and oh, this is what I deal with. I had it myself when I was going through

00:11:55:00 - 00:12:27:07
Emma Davey
They will make out that they are the innocent one, that they do all of these things for the wife and they do their best, but it's just never good enough. And you have the true victim, kind of just like, how do they manage to do this? How do they manage to literally manipulate everybody around them? And again, this makes it so hard for true victims to come out and say, actually, he's the abusive one, because they've manipulated everyone around them thinking that you are the perpetrator and everyone's not talking to you.

00:12:27:08 - 00:12:50:15
Emma Davey
Now, I had it myself where my name was smeared and everyone thought I was the perpetrator. So it's really hard to try and not only come to terms with it yourself, but to try and come out and tell everybody else. And a courtroom, especially if you're having to go to court, you know, it's horrendous because then you also have barristers, etc., calling you a liar.

00:12:50:20 - 00:13:10:16
Emma Davey
So DARVO is really important and I'm so pleased it is being recognized in courts because this is part of the abuse. This is another layer on top of the abuse they do to you. when I tell this to clients and also when I say, well, actually you can use this terminology in family court, the light bulb goes on.

00:13:10:16 - 00:13:14:17
Emma Davey
But there's also a little bit relief of actually, is someone going to believe me. Yeah.

00:13:14:19 - 00:13:35:13
Lisa Sonni
So it's hard to prove. You know I think that's where people kind of go like, well, okay, they're both they're both an issue. And again, mutually toxic. Sure. Absolutely. Abuse does not go both ways. There's a perpetrator and there's a victim. So I know things are sort of nuanced, but that's I like to oversimplify sometimes. But I know what I'm doing it.

00:13:35:13 - 00:13:53:22
Lisa Sonni
But I think abuse is not going both directions. And an abuser will take an everyday sort of situation and immediately flip it. And you can see it in anything from like if you ask him to take the garbage out and he literally will play the victim of your nagging, when really it's you shouldn't have to ask him a million times.

00:13:53:22 - 00:14:13:00
Lisa Sonni
Now, obviously that in and of itself is not abuse, but I'm talking about an abuser who does that or I don't know. I used a really controversial example once online a woman felt like he was cheating her abuser. Not just her partner, but someone who is abusive in other ways, felt like he was cheating. And so she went through his phone and found that he, in fact was cheating.

00:14:13:00 - 00:14:30:23
Lisa Sonni
And he of course he flipped it on. How dare you? You invaded my privacy. What's wrong with you? You know you're insecure. But meanwhile she caught him and the comment section was actually wild. I have to admit, I didn't think it was that controversial until I made the post. It was a skit and so many people were like, they're both bad.

00:14:31:00 - 00:14:50:04
Lisa Sonni
They are equally wrong. Cheating is wrong, but going through your partner's phone is wrong. And of course, I'm not going to disagree that your that your cell phone should be private and that nobody should just take it and sneak through it. I completely get that and I know that perpetrators also do that. I get it, but in that context, I was like, what?

00:14:50:08 - 00:15:10:16
Lisa Sonni
Catching him was as bad as him doing it, It was mind blowing how much the the audience was, was on, you know, the side of no one. It was it was shocking. He he literally was cheating. And I always wonder sometimes if it was reversed, you know, if he had cut her cheating, if how much different the response would be.

00:15:10:17 - 00:15:28:03
Lisa Sonni
Maybe not at all. But I thought it was interesting. We start to defend and explain and we get very off topic, because I think as soon as the denial happens and then you push and then he attacks you, you immediately want to defend yourself. That's a brutal spot to be where you're so, you know, but that's not true.

00:15:28:03 - 00:15:41:00
Lisa Sonni
And, you know, I'm not a nag or I went through your phone because whatever the the flip is, but it makes us feel defensive. What do you think that does to the perpetrator? How does he feel in that moment, do you think.

00:15:41:00 - 00:15:59:03
Emma Davey
Oh, he's been caught out, so he's got to deflect instead of taking ownership and like, do you know what. Yes, I have been cheating. Let it start to explain. No, they're not going to do that. They're going to deflect and they're going to make it your fault because you've been going down their phone again, something that I've experienced myself personally. I went

00:15:59:05 - 00:16:24:15
Emma Davey
and the thing is, when a victim does go through the perpetrators phone, it's probably been months that the victim has probably been in denial, making excuses, you know, really trying to go through that. The trial blindness of it's not happening. Oh, he's late because of this and we don't want it to be true. But so much has happened that the opportunity is there.

00:16:24:15 - 00:16:44:19
Emma Davey
And finally part of us has gone. Just look, if it's not there, just look for our own sanity, because we have been gaslit so much that for our own sanity, we just need proof. We just need to know. So when we do actually look down and we see it in our own eyes, we finally have the proof,

00:16:44:20 - 00:17:06:18
Emma Davey
and we want to show the perpetrator of look, see, you have been doing this to me because again, we've been so gaslit. We've been lied to, we've been told that we're imagining things. No, we have the proof here. And instead of of getting. Yes, you're right. I'm sorry. We How dare you go down my phone? You are so, so crazy.

00:17:06:19 - 00:17:28:12
Emma Davey
You're obsessed with me, see? I've caught you. This was actually all a joke. I just wanted to see how crazy you are that you had to go down my phone. So now you're like, what? No, no no no. Do you know what? I can't be bothered with this. You're crazy. You're nuts. I'm going to leave you to sort your own life out.

00:17:28:13 - 00:17:47:11
Emma Davey
And then they will leave you with the silent treatment so you'd get nothing. You actually get further abuse on top of that, where you then go through the silent treatment. Because the silent treatment is so horrendous, because it can go on for days. When they finally do start speaking to you again, you'll forget it because it's just easier just to go with it.

00:17:47:11 - 00:18:08:03
Emma Davey
Pretend it didn't happen to carry on because life's so horrific that and that's where you start to snowball. You really start to lose yourself and you think you actually accept this behavior because the consequences are even worse. So the next time you think he's cheating, you won't say anything.

00:18:08:03 - 00:18:28:17
Lisa Sonni
Exactly. You'll just stay completely quiet. I think, where women even start to go like you're right, I shouldn't have gone through his phone. And again, the two things can be true. Yes, technically, she shouldn't have. And a lot of women, I think a lot of people, in fact, oversimplify it of if you need to go through their phone, you know, you already know that you can't trust this person and you should end it.

00:18:28:17 - 00:18:53:00
Lisa Sonni
But I feel like, again, it just leads you back into this confusion. You are the problem. So why would you break up with someone who you've made crazy? He was a great guy. And if you turned him mean to you, You're not going to leave him because you're the bad person. You are the one who's insecure and went through his phone and you know, you're you're taking your old insecurities, bringing it into our relationship, the way that they flip everything on you.

00:18:53:00 - 00:19:16:08
Lisa Sonni
DARVO is one of the worst tactics. That is really one of the greatest tactics for an abuser, because it is the perfect way for them to avoid accountability. And that is exactly what narcissistic people do. But abusers are just so good at evading accountability of any kind, and it's great when they flip it and redirect that onto you.

00:19:16:08 - 00:19:38:22
Lisa Sonni
I think it's horrible. The original issue gone right so quickly, and then you find yourself being defensive and reacting even. I hate the phrase “reactive abuse.” I truly despise it. I've heard it called a reactive response. I've heard it, you know, a reactive behavior. I've heard it called self-defense. I think that's a little far, but I hate the phrase reactive abuse.

00:19:38:23 - 00:20:00:14
Lisa Sonni
I think it's also misunderstood. A lot of people think that it applies to his behavior. He is engaging in reactive abuse by making you react. That's not where the term came from. It's more accurate, but it really means she is the abuser by reacting to abuse. And I very sarcastically will ask people, you know, what is a good reaction to being abused?

00:20:00:17 - 00:20:16:06
Lisa Sonni
Perhaps leaving, but that's easy to say. But in the moment we can react very badly. Abusers are good at poking you until you absolutely explode. I see it like a pressure cooker. What have you seen with this reactive, let's call it reactive response.

00:20:16:08 - 00:20:39:11
Emma Davey
Well, I call it you go into fight. That is that is what you're doing. Your nervous system is going into fight because it is under threat. So again, I dislike that language. It's a reactive abuse etc. yes, we can break it down and say you are reacting to the abuse that you're enduring, but actually your nervous system is going into fight because it has no other option.

00:20:39:11 - 00:21:00:12
Emma Davey
It is scanning what is happening and you can either go into flight or fight and fight can be arguing, could be shouting, could be thrown a plate could be pushing because you feel under threat. So actually I just say you're nervous system is in a trauma response and it's doing its job. It's protecting

00:21:00:14 - 00:21:17:19
Lisa Sonni
If you feel that it's coming from somewhere, right. We don't just start screaming out of nowhere. There's a provocation. But you know where it gets kind of to me, it's not a gray area, but I can understand that to people who are not so trained on this, it looks like a gray area of, well, I need context and I need to understand what happened.

00:21:17:19 - 00:21:36:19
Lisa Sonni
And I think people very easily on the outside put themselves into the role of judge and jury. But that's really unfair to the victim. I think in the moment when this is happening and we react explosively, like I still remember a time where I was so angry, I stood up and flung a glass of water in his face.

00:21:36:19 - 00:21:59:17
Lisa Sonni
It was so out of a movie. I don't do that. I've never thrown anything water and object. Nothing at any person, ever. No matter how mad I've been. And I've been in relationships that are toxic even. But this was like, oh my God. I was beside myself with rage. Not anger, not fury, rage. And I just exploded and I walked out of the room.

00:21:59:17 - 00:22:16:21
Lisa Sonni
But first, having thrown water, those little things. Right. And I remember he actually was recording me. It was so cliche. Now, in hindsight, yeah, he was recording me. And I swear if that video, if I had that, I would post it. I honestly, I would shovel like this and I know it would create confusion and people would be like, oh look, she's throwing things.

00:22:16:21 - 00:22:34:11
Lisa Sonni
But that's what happens to people. We lose our minds. And essentially but I love it being called a fight response. I think that's incredibly clear on the outside when you're in it. Why do you think so many women just see that as like, see, I'm unstable too. I'm the problem.

00:22:34:11 - 00:22:55:20
Emma Davey
Because you have reacted and you've you've reacted in exactly the way the narcissist wants you to react. Because yes, they have the phone on record. I have one myself, I wish I could post mine. I was an unfortunate and given mine. But yeah, they push and push and push and push and because you are human, you have a limit.

00:22:55:21 - 00:23:20:03
Emma Davey
We all have limits and coercive and controlling behavior. They do it in such a way where they don't have to touch you. It's all done psychologically. So they're pushing you that they could they couldn't be hours of where they're just putting you down, chipping away. They don't even have to shout at you. It can just be how we're talking now and just putting you down for hours until you just explode.

00:23:20:03 - 00:23:39:01
Emma Davey
And they do this on purpose because they want that explosive reaction where you throw a drink at them, or if you hit them or whatever, and they actually smile when you do it. You can see the glee in their eyes like, yes, I've got yeah, the video record in, you know, I'm calling in all the names under the sun. He's getting in my way.

00:23:39:02 - 00:23:58:21
Emma Davey
I'm pushing him. Get out of my way. So if you listen to that recording, I sound nuts. And he's like, why are you pushing me? Why are you pushing me? And I'm just like, [...] off. And it's because you get to the point where it's like, I cut. You're no longer present. Your brain has gone offline, you're in your in flight, you're trying. You

00:23:58:23 - 00:24:22:12
Emma Davey
just. You've seen red because your nervous system can't take any more. And it is part of the torture that they do to you. And it is torture. Yes, you might, you might be, but you're not tied to a chair where you're just, you know, being prodded, etc. but you're in an invisible prison anyway when you're living with a narcissist and when people say, well, why didn't you just get up and leave?

00:24:22:17 - 00:24:27:15
Emma Davey
You can't because there are severe consequences if you get up and leave.

00:24:27:17 - 00:24:56:02
Lisa Sonni
Huge ones. Huge. I've tried that. I again, so sarcastic. Right? Oh just leave. Oh my God, I'm so glad you said that. Because I am too stupid to ever have thought that just leaving would solve my problem. It's so baffling how people think when you said you're seeing red, you brought me back to a moment where he woke me up and it must have been 2:00 in the morning, woke me up and explained to me that our couples counselor had done an exercise with him.

00:24:56:08 - 00:25:13:23
Lisa Sonni
as an aside, I've spoken to her. This is not an actual exercise, but. So don't anyone think this works because it doesn't. But he was talking, I guess. I guess their conversation had something to do with when he's in the red zone. How can he bring himself back to the green zone, which you don't have to know anything about exercises to know, but like that just makes sense.

00:25:13:23 - 00:25:19:12
Lisa Sonni
What he did was wake me up at 2:00 in the morning, screaming at me to get in the red zone, get.

00:25:19:12 - 00:25:22:02
Lisa Sonni
In the red zone, red, get in the red.

00:25:22:03 - 00:25:47:18
Lisa Sonni
Screaming at me. And then when I was just hysterical, he was like, go green. Go green now green. Immediately I was like, and it made me flip my lid. I was screaming like a lunatic at four now 4:00 in the morning, because it had been going on for two hours. That wasn't recorded, but if it had been, he would have recorded just that last bit and I would have looked like a lunatic because I was screaming, I was name calling.

00:25:47:18 - 00:26:14:17
Lisa Sonni
I that is not who I am. And I had spent at that point nine years not reacting. So the last six months was pretty horrific because I had been so contained and actually much more freeze and fawn over that time, that this fight response was just dying to come out of me. But I felt horrible the next day, I, I never I have to admit, he never convinced me that I was the problem, but I definitely wondered why this was happening.

00:26:14:17 - 00:26:23:20
Lisa Sonni
But I just see so commonly women feel like that. What would you say to women who feel like that response makes them the perpetrator?

00:26:23:22 - 00:26:45:09
Emma Davey
No, it just makes you human. Yeah. That is what I would agree to realize that you are a human being and we all have limits. And just take your example and scenario. That's not normal. If someone is waking you up at 2:00 in the morning screaming at you, riling you up, trying to get that response from you. That's not normal.

00:26:45:10 - 00:27:04:06
Emma Davey
Nobody that loves you would want to get you into that state to push you in there for their own benefit. You know, he was he was getting enjoyment from that. That power, that control was seeing breaks and you lose your mind. And having that audacity to be like, okay, you can go green now.

00:27:04:10 - 00:27:25:22
Lisa Sonni
Oh, thank. One of the worst experiences of my life. It truly like the most crazy making situation I think I've ever truly been in. You lose yourself, you know, in these moments. And it's a very painful experience, obviously to be in an abusive relationship, but to be looking at the person that you think you love that that in theory, loves you.

00:27:25:23 - 00:27:50:17
Lisa Sonni
These are the beliefs. And to realize that he knows what he's doing, that he benefits from this, that he probably enjoys it, at least to a degree, but that this is willful in so many ways. Right? I know conscious, unconscious, whatever, but they know that they get what they want based on doing this behavior. And the truth is, if I woke up him at that hour and did what he did, he would lose his mind.

00:27:50:17 - 00:28:09:04
Lisa Sonni
Which is proof to me that these abusers know exactly what they're doing, and they're doing it purposefully. I think the biggest miss that so many of us make is that people aren't out there in the world just hurting you for basically no reason. You don't have to have done anything. We're very like, what did I do to make him this way?

00:28:09:04 - 00:28:13:18
Lisa Sonni
Instead of, this is a person who is just cruel for the sake of being cruel.

00:28:13:23 - 00:28:37:07
Emma Davey
Absolutely. And people say, do they know that they're like this? Yes. They know they're like this. behind closed doors, they are one version to you that treats you horrifically, abuses you, makes you feel worthless, enjoy seeing you cry, enjoy seeing you break and then and the outside world to a party. Oh my beautiful wife. You know that this and so caring.

00:28:37:07 - 00:28:57:11
Emma Davey
So loving to the neighbors. Oh, I'll cut your grass for you. Oh, you want some milk? I'll grab that for you. I'll get the newspaper, walk through the door and puts you down and makes you feel absolutely worthless. They know exactly what they're doing because if it's, it's controlled. So never, ever make that excuse of he doesn't know what he's doing because he does.

00:28:57:15 - 00:29:09:08
Emma Davey
He's choosing to do it to you. He's enjoying it. Because if he can go and get the paper for the neighbor, if he can cut the grass for next door, and then he comes home and abuses you. He he knows what he's

00:29:09:10 - 00:29:28:17
Lisa Sonni
I think it's so clear on the outside, but I think the disbelief really gets you when you're actually in it, because the thought that not only do these people exist, you are with this person. And if you're with this person and they are in fact just abusing you on purpose knowingly, you need to leave. You need to uproot your entire life.

00:29:28:18 - 00:29:46:10
Lisa Sonni
You were wrong. You were stupid for saying you all the thoughts and feelings and shame that come at you when you believe this. I think that sort of cognitive dissonance of they are good and bad for simplified, but they're good and bad at the same time. They're abusive and they love you. It's like just the most horrible feeling.

00:29:46:10 - 00:29:51:00
Lisa Sonni
I can understand why Doctor Peter Sullivan coined the term traumatic cognitive dissonance.

00:29:51:00 - 00:30:14:20
Emma Davey
very, very common, where I've had quite a few clients come to me and said that they will go and do something nice outside, like do the grass or speak to some neighbors, come home, open the windows, and then start very quietly on the wife and push and push until she shouting so the neighbors can hear. And then the next it'll be. Oh, yeah. Did you hear her?

00:30:14:21 - 00:30:41:15
Emma Davey
Yeah. This is what I have to put up with. And so the neighbors thinks the wife is crazy and that she's the perpetrator, and the poor man has to deal with this all the time. That is heartbreaking. So I just say to to clients, if you know what the reaction that the abuser wants, give the opposite if you can. if you feel safe or try not to if you notice. Because I think when you can see it, you can't unsee it.

00:30:41:15 - 00:31:01:03
Emma Davey
But you can also think, right, here's wanting me to lose it because he's just open the windows. I know if it's a sunny day, everyone's outside. Just don't just think no. Because if I shout and scream. He's going to get exactly what I want. Wherever you say, okay, I completely hear you. Yeah. You're right. It'll be what?

00:31:01:06 - 00:31:13:00
Emma Davey
So once you can see it and you have some tools to try and manage And if you feel safe enough to then then definitely do it. But yeah, you've got to have an outlet somewhere.

00:31:13:00 - 00:31:32:04
Lisa Sonni
I think what's interesting about what you suggested to is that when you don't give the explosive response that they want and you say, okay, yeah, I agree with you even though you don't. Right. But you say, I agree. Look how mad they get. That's evidence that he doesn't want compliance because that's people think abusers want compliance. Sometimes they also want responses.

00:31:32:04 - 00:31:56:15
Lisa Sonni
They want explosions a so they can prove that you're the problem so that they can make themselves feel better. So they can record it. So they can make you think you're crazy so that they feel powerful because they can create these big emotional responses from you. They're in control of your feelings. So it's actually, again, if you're safe to I think it's a great thing to be able to kind of, yeah, take a breath and just say, okay.

00:31:56:16 - 00:31:57:14
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, you're

00:31:57:16 - 00:32:17:10
Emma Davey
Because they enjoy this. If someone if you're crying and someone is smiling, they can actually smile with their eyes like that. You can see it. It's like I've got her yeah. And then that's cheered them up for the day. And then they carry on going, and then you're left broken for the rest of the day and then trying to piece your back together.

00:32:17:10 - 00:32:40:09
Emma Davey
And then what can I do. Oh, I have screamed and shout and that's another thing people say. But I did scream and shout at him. I did throw a glass of water over him, so I'm just as bad as him. No you're not. You have responded to probably hours or something that has happened. And you know, Lisa, you bring up a really, really good point and I recognize this within myself.

00:32:40:11 - 00:33:00:19
Emma Davey
I was never angry before him. You know, you'd never thrown a glass of water. If you are acting out of character because you are around this specific person, then that just goes to show more about the person that you're around as opposed to you. Yes, because we're only responding to what we're enduring.

00:33:01:00 - 00:33:17:15
Lisa Sonni
So but let me ask you this, because I know this is a hard one to kind of pinpoint because you're not there in these people's relationships, and nor am I, but we're talking about how the abuser provokes us into this reaction. An abuser would be the first person to say, no, no, you did this and I'm reacting to you.

00:33:17:16 - 00:33:20:18
Lisa Sonni
You provoked me. How do you get through that with someone?

00:33:20:21 - 00:33:42:05
Emma Davey
Again, I would say, would you like this in a past relationship? Did you feel like this at the beginning of the relationship? When did you start noticing that there's this change in you? And so we just kind of break it down, go back, and then we start unpicking things. And actually it's well, I started doing this when he would do this or when he would do that.

00:33:42:05 - 00:34:07:08
Emma Davey
And so actually it's ever since you've been with him in the past, however long. So this isn't you. This is your responses. This person is, getting you to respond in this way and tell me about his past relationship. Because narcissists will always say my ex was nuts. She was crazy. Yes. So I mean, I can say my past, relationships, not all were horrific,

00:34:07:12 - 00:34:30:18
Emma Davey
some naturally because we. Yeah. So if everyone's X is absolutely crazy, that's another red flag. But just remember who you are and who you were before the relationship and when you went into it. And when did you start noticing you changing like you becoming angry, etc.. So yeah, it's always good to reflect on when and where.

00:34:30:20 - 00:34:52:10
Lisa Sonni
see a lot of women, what I call get their PhD in narcissistic abuse on YouTube University. You know, women read the books and the podcasts and go to the group workshops and listen to TikToks and Instagram Reels and YouTube videos. Constantly learning and absorbing everything and trying to figure out is he avoidant or abusive? Is it trauma?

00:34:52:11 - 00:35:19:19
Lisa Sonni
Is it this? Is he a narcissist? Is he borderline? Maybe it's his mom, maybe his ex-girlfriend is crazy. Maybe it's all these different reasons and we're trying so hard or to fix ourselves, right? How to calm the nervous system. You can't calm your nervous system while you're in an active threat. But we're sitting here trying so hard to improve ourselves, I almost feel like we become borderline obsessed with fixing ourselves or him or the relationship.

00:35:19:19 - 00:35:32:07
Lisa Sonni
Instead of step back, look at the pattern and figure out how to extricate yourself from the relationship. Why is that so hard for people, do you think, to stop obsessing over all the content?

00:35:32:11 - 00:35:54:09
Emma Davey
I think because we want answers, we want to know how to fix this. Is there a pill? Is there something? Is there a magic wand? No there's not. And I was guilty of this as well. I was trying to figure out was parent issue? Was it, you know, something for me to say? Look, if you go and see this doctor, if you go and see that psychiatrist, then they're going to fix you.

00:35:54:15 - 00:36:15:09
Emma Davey
Doesn't happen. I think as well as humans, we want to know everything, you know, we want to know what this is for me, I definitely wanted to know what the hell was happening to me. Because, like many people say, an intelligent woman. How have I ended up here? And it doesn't matter how intelligent you are, this can get anybody.

00:36:15:15 - 00:36:41:10
Emma Davey
is nothing you can do to fix then. So cut your losses and focus on you because they are not going to change and you cannot change them. In fact, we can't change anyone. Change has to come from within ourselves. So if you focus on you, then that's where you're going to see change. talking about the nervous system, you cannot turn off your nervous system because if it didn't go into fight or flight or freeze or fawn, it won't be doing its job.

00:36:41:10 - 00:37:03:13
Emma Davey
You wouldn't be alive. So you cannot stop your nervous system from doing its job. Your brain is there to keep you alive. It's not to keep you happy. So it's constantly scanning to keep you alive. And it will do what it needs to do to do that. So trust yourself. Love yourself more to know that actually my nervous system is doing what it needs to do,

00:37:03:14 - 00:37:22:05
Lisa Sonni
Oh, I love that. I love that I see so many women just doing so much and reading all the books and taking every course and going to therapy. All the while he's doing absolutely nothing, right? It all gets put on us, and that's a painful experience. I think. You know, I talk often about the third of three steps to getting out of these relationships.

00:37:22:05 - 00:37:41:21
Lisa Sonni
I make it sound so easy. I know three steps. First step is education and clarity. And that's where you get your little, you know, PhD on YouTube University, right? You you need that. You need the clarity. You need the information and education. You need labels like DARVO and coercive control, narcissism even when it applies that matters to start to label things.

00:37:41:21 - 00:37:57:07
Lisa Sonni
So you can start to see. But I think and I think you agree, it sounds like that the real work comes from when you let go, why he's doing that and what it is about him. And you just start to go, what am I here? Not from a place of judging yourself at all, but from a place of curiosity.

00:37:57:08 - 00:38:20:09
Lisa Sonni
What is it about this? Or about me or my experience, my life, that makes me think that being treated this way is okay, or normal, or excusable or acceptable, and you start doing some inner work. I think that's where you really start to see the shift. And I know when I first started working with people, I was very focused on specifically, you know, getting into and breaking a trauma bond.

00:38:20:09 - 00:38:42:19
Lisa Sonni
But there's so much work to be done after in that sort of rebuilding stage. And geared a lot of what I do and talk about to how you actually heal yourself. I don't know that, you know, I don't really believe in the concept of you become healed and then that's it. I think it is a lifelong thing, which is a great thing to just keep focusing on yourself and loving yourself.

00:38:42:19 - 00:38:49:20
Lisa Sonni
It's an incredible experience, and I hope that more women do that and don't feel so responsible for what they've been through.

00:38:49:21 - 00:39:14:20
Emma Davey
Absolutely. And just because you leave in an abusive relationship does not mean that the abuse stops. You know, you then go into post separation abuse, and sometimes that can be worse than the abuse that you endured in the relationship. So there's so many different layers and there's not one shot that fits all. You know, there's no recovery that's going to fix everybody.

00:39:14:20 - 00:39:47:12
Emma Davey
Everybody is different. Every scenario is different. Every abusive relationship is different. So learning what this is is absolutely key. Like that is stage one like the psych education. It's so so important because it clarifies I'm not the problem. This isn't me. You need to have that. Because if you have been like myself blaming myself, if I'd have only just kept my mouth shut, or if I'd just let that go and I didn't, like, bite on that, then, you know, we could still be together and have this amazing relationship

00:39:47:12 - 00:40:07:00
Emma Davey
once you come to terms with. That was never going to happen. You were asking your nervous system to not work, and to not work means you're not alive. So that was never going to happen. And then you've got to go into right? Okay. One, is it safe enough to leave because not always. And then you've got to get your ducks in a row.

00:40:07:01 - 00:40:30:22
Emma Davey
Always get your ducks in a row first, because leaving a narcissist divorcing analysis ist honestly it's horrific. So you have to make sure that one it's safe, and two, that you've got to get your ducks in a row and get support. Friends, family, therapist, whoever is going to help you through that journey because it is a very bumpy and traumatic journey.

00:40:31:00 - 00:40:54:22
Emma Davey
It's worth it because I'm an example. Lisa, you're an example of recovering where you can go if it's done properly. It's definitely not overnight. I'm seven years in, you know. And do I still have flashbacks? Obviously, I work in this industry. I talk about this every day. So yes, my nervous system is always triggered by this, but I've learned a way to cope with it.

00:40:54:22 - 00:41:14:06
Emma Davey
And my purpose now is to help and support others. But, you know, there is no fixed in this, this this does change you. Anyone that says, oh, it doesn't. Yes it does. If you have been affected by analysis, it's definitely. But I always say you would have picked up so many skills that you don't even realize it yet.

00:41:14:09 - 00:41:42:00
Emma Davey
And if recovery is done properly, you will not go into another narcissistic relationship. You will have so much self-love for you self-worth that you will not give that to any other person unless they meet every category that you're happy with, that your nervous system feels safe and and happy with. And just trust yourself. You know, going through this recovery journey is is hard, but it's worth it.

00:41:42:01 - 00:42:01:16
Lisa Sonni
it so is. You know, when people say that post separation abuse is worse sometimes, or at least as bad, I get it. And I completely agree that there's no lie there at all, but know that it's still worth it because you are better able to manage it outside of it, or ignore it even if you have kids. I know not everybody can go.

00:42:01:17 - 00:42:27:04
Lisa Sonni
No contact when you have kids, I get that, but you can still get yourself out of it and live a happier life than being in that abusive relationship and constantly questioning yourself and wondering if you're the problem. I think the fact that women are finding themselves worried about whether or not their the perpetrator of abuse tells me something really big and really important, which is we are not the problem because a perpetrator of abuse is not actually wondering if they're the problem.

00:42:27:04 - 00:42:45:21
Lisa Sonni
They don't care if they're the problem, they don't see themselves as the problem. Often they see it as justified consequences. Right? You did this. Therefore I had to scream at you. You were. You weren't listening to me. They don't see themselves as the problem. Even the ones that pretend, even the ones that go to therapy, that myth that no narcissist would ever go to therapy.

00:42:46:00 - 00:43:11:07
Lisa Sonni
Maybe that was true at one point, but therapy is normal now. You know, everybody goes to therapy, no big deal. So perpetrators are using that and weaponizing it and still acting like, you know, I'm working on myself. What are you doing again? Still framing you as the problem. But people who intentionally control and manipulate and distort your reality, they're not sitting up at night wondering if they're hurting their spouse.

00:43:11:07 - 00:43:31:08
Lisa Sonni
He's not on YouTube learning all the things that you're learning for the same reasons. So really, I want women to look at the pattern, look at what happened before the reaction. Look at who you were before this relationship. I think those are such great things. Thank you so much for this conversation. Is there anything else you want to add or say to the audience?

00:43:31:12 - 00:43:53:04
Emma Davey
Oh, well, when it comes to the narcissist, go into therapy. If your narcissist comes home and says, my therapist says you're the problem, not the therapist says that actually you're the abuser. Don't listen to that seriously. Do not listen. I've heard that so many times that the therapist has probably not said that, and if they have, then they don't know the situation.

00:43:53:04 - 00:44:19:18
Emma Davey
They don't understand this type of person that they're working with. So trust your own judgment. And actually this a you problem. This is their problem. And they're just going to therapy to abuse you continuously to use it against you, but also as a means of supply. As you said, it's quite trendy to have a therapist now, so don't think that just because they go to therapy they're going to come home fixed, because that is not true.

00:44:19:22 - 00:44:43:06
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. That's also triangulation. You know, as I was saying that I like labels. I like being able to point to something my therapist said, triangulation immediately trying to discredit your feelings by bringing in some third party who allegedly said something, who probably didn't say it. And if they did, they missed the context. So we need to just take a deep breath and trust ourselves, which is easy to say and harder to do.

00:44:43:06 - 00:44:49:22
Lisa Sonni
But I know that people can work with people like you or me to help learn those things. Where can people find you?

00:44:50:03 - 00:45:12:11
Emma Davey
So I practice called Mitchell Method so you can find me at my uke. I have an app called Menara, which I really speak about collating evidence because you never know when you might need it, family or criminal court. You are best off having the evidence then if you don't. And also it can help you with being severely gaslit that actually no, that did happen.

00:45:12:11 - 00:45:35:03
Emma Davey
You did say that and you did send that and you did smash that. So just keep as much evidence as possible. Trust me, you would rather have it than not. And even if you've just entered into a relationship, just keep everything. It might not be abusive, but it might be. And then if two years down the line, you end up in a criminal court case, you've got a whole pattern of abuse.

00:45:35:03 - 00:46:01:04
Emma Davey
And when it's not physical and it's coercive control and behavior, you need text messages, voice notes, emails, Ring doorbell, CCTV, emails, anything, anything at all. And don't just take pictures or collect the bad stuff. Also include the good. Because wherever you are, if you're in the UK, you need to show a pattern of coercive controlling behavior and that does include the good.

00:46:01:08 - 00:46:18:21
Lisa Sonni
That is huge to make note of, because I know we can get caught up with only documenting the bad that matters so much. And I want to add that I know that your app looks like a calculator. So for people that are still in the relationship, that's a really intentional choice so that it's not noticeably an app for abuse.

00:46:18:22 - 00:46:24:11
Lisa Sonni
It is a calculator. So it looks really inconspicuous. Thank you so much for being here.

00:46:24:17 - 00:46:26:09
Emma Davey
Thank you. Lisa.

00:46:26:11 - 00:46:36:02
Lisa Sonni
If this episode gave you clarity. Share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember, you're stronger than before.

00:46:36:04 - 00:46:39:07
Music
Stronger than before.