5 Covert Gaslighting Tactics That Make You Question Your Own Reality | Dr. Robin Stern | S4E3

You know what gaslighting is.

”You're too sensitive.” ”I was just joking.” ”That never happened.”

But there is a version of gaslighting that is much harder to name. It does not announce itself. It works slowly, through tone and framing and forgetfulness and calm. And by the time you notice it, you have already started doubting your own memory, your own perception, and your own mind.

Lisa sits down with Dr. Robin Stern, therapist, author, and co-founder of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, to go deep on the 5 covert tactics that most people never recognize as gaslighting.

Dr. Stern is clear that these tactics are not always conscious, but in the hands of someone who uses them consistently, the effect is the same. You stop trusting yourself. You begin organizing your life around avoiding his reaction. You forget who you were before the confusion started.

Because sometimes the calmest person in the room is causing the most damage.

Resources mentioned:

• The Gaslight Effect by Dr. Robin Stern
• Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence

Transcript

00:00:00:13 - 00:00:08:18
Speaker 1


00:00:08:20 - 00:00:18:00
Lisa Sonni
This is Real Talk With Lisa Sonni: Relationships Uncensored, the podcast they don't want you listening to.

00:00:18:01 - 00:00:38:15
Lisa Sonni
Today’s conversation is one that I have been dying to talk about and honestly, genuinely excited for because we talk about gaslighting, right? And I think it was the word of the year in 2023. But people know you're too sensitive. And I was just joking. That is gaslighting. But there are so many covert ways that people are being gaslit and they don't even realize it.

00:00:38:15 - 00:00:57:16
Lisa Sonni
And so I have brought in someone whose work has honestly helped shape how people understand manipulation and self-doubt and all of the kind of slow erosion of the way that we see ourselves and how we trust our own minds. So I want to ask Doctor Stern, if you could please introduce yourself.

00:00:57:17 - 00:00:59:18
Dr. Robin Stern
I’m Robin Stern, and I

00:00:59:19 - 00:01:30:03
Dr. Robin Stern
am someone who brought Gaslight to the public conversation, and I'm proud of that. I'm a therapist. I'm an author and the co-founder of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and work with hundreds and thousands of people who want well-being to be the way they live their life. And gaslighting is the opposite. Gaslighting destroys well-being. It destroys your confidence. It destroys psychological safety when it's happening in organizations or in families.

00:01:30:03 - 00:01:54:07
Dr. Robin Stern
And when you're deep into a gaslighting relationship, it can be soul destroying. Yes. And I know because I've had so many conversations about gaslighting that as we're talking about it today, we we may have moments where we were saying, I just can't even believe it. That couldn't possibly even happen. Or you may be listening and thinking, oh my God. But I do want to communicate that it is not just outrageous and unbelievable.

00:01:54:07 - 00:02:21:13
Dr. Robin Stern
It is also deeply painful, deeply painful because as you accommodate to your gaslighting reality over and over and over again, you're giving up little pieces of yourself. And, Lisa, you and I talked a little bit about this before we started rolling. It's mostly women. Yeah. Mostly women. I see mostly women who seek help for gaslighting. And mostly women who are experiencing this pain.

00:02:21:14 - 00:02:55:12
Dr. Robin Stern
Don't mean to leave anyone out. We know that there are many men and people who are. All the range of identities who experience gaslighting. But today, I'm speaking as someone who's seen from 30 years. Mostly women talk about their abuse and their gaslighting relationships. I say that knowing that many listeners on your podcast, Lisa, know that we accommodate from the time we're very young, we're taught to be nice. We're taught that empathy is so important and empathy is so important.

00:02:55:12 - 00:03:21:06
Dr. Robin Stern
But so many of us get stuck in someone else's shoes so long that we forget to get back into our own. and so many of us get stuck in these explanation traps or these empathic moments where we think, you know what? He probably never learned this. Let me let me give him a pass he had. He must not have had a mom who taught him how to have a relationship or who taught him kindness.

00:03:21:06 - 00:03:43:02
Dr. Robin Stern
So I can do that. I'm going to be the role model for that. it's a loving impulse. It's also incredibly grandiose, by the way, because, you know, it's not going to happen. True. And and it's often very unsuccessful. That said, nobody's born a gas lighter. And so people do learn through social learning, through witnessing it through experiencing it.

00:03:43:02 - 00:04:03:13
Dr. Robin Stern
there are people for whom a conversation can be an awakening. There are people who are gaslighting for whom when you say, you know what you're hurting me with, every time you twist it like that, they can step back and say, oh my God, I never realized that I've gotten phone calls from people after reading my book, The Gaslight Effect.

00:04:03:14 - 00:04:14:23
Dr. Robin Stern
Say I I'm doing that and I don't want to be doing But that's rare. Much rarer than the person who says, I'm gaslighting you. Well, you went to therapy today. That's the term.

00:04:15:01 - 00:04:15:17
Lisa Sonni
A new word.

00:04:15:22 - 00:04:16:21
Dr. Robin Stern
Exactly.

00:04:16:22 - 00:04:39:23
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. You know, what really inspired me is particularly around the covert gaslighting that we're about to talk about is so many people just don't recognize that it's happening. They're not naming it. And I love labeling tactics and behavior because it's the beginning of people going, oh, that's abuse, right? If it's gaslighting, then it's purposeful, right? It's not a misunderstanding.

00:04:39:23 - 00:05:03:04
Lisa Sonni
He's not confused. Oh, so it's important to me because when you look at what what abuse is. Right. Well, he's not hitting you, so he's not abusive. Well, he's not lying to you. Well, he's gaslighting you. So a lot of the covert ways that people are being abused are important. And I am a fan of having those conversations as hard as they can be sometimes, because too many women don't recognize it.

00:05:03:04 - 00:05:24:06
Lisa Sonni
So I see in my comment sections, you know, I'm perpetually online, but I see so often in my comment sections, I didn't know until I saw this video. I didn't know until I watched your content that, and I know there's lots of content out there reading books and whatnot, but if you don't know, unless somebody is talking about it, then hi, I'm going to be talking about it as loudly as I possibly can.

00:05:24:06 - 00:05:44:23
Lisa Sonni
And I've experienced gaslighting and I know you have as well. And that sucks for both of us, obviously, and everyone who's had this happen. But I like talking about the subtle stuff, the stuff that makes you kind of walk away from a conversation and be like, wait, what? What just happened? How am I? How am I apologizing? Or how am I being framed this way?

00:05:45:00 - 00:06:05:06
Lisa Sonni
So it's important work. And one of the ways I know I've experienced this, which I've sort of labeled the preemptive framing. Right. You get positioned as a problem before you even open your mouth. And that could look like, you know, I want to talk to you about something, Robin, but. Oh, how do I how do I say this? Let me choose my words carefully.

00:06:05:08 - 00:06:13:00
Lisa Sonni
Okay, let's let's start here. And you're sort of like, what? You know, you're being framed and you're wondering, right? Yeah.

00:06:13:02 - 00:06:35:05
Dr. Robin Stern
Why can't. Why can't you talk to me? Yeah. Right. Yeah. So I like to speak to that. But even before that, I want to thank you for bringing up how important it is for people to understand that naming it is the beginning of awakening and healing, and how it's hard to name it in a world where abuse looks like you're black and blue.

00:06:35:05 - 00:07:05:20
Dr. Robin Stern
So the very first speech I ever wrote about the gaslight effect and being gaslighted included the fact that when women come to me with black and blue marks or somebody just hit them, they know who's to blame. But when they come to me with these ephemeral concepts or confusion about self-esteem and hard to put your finger on discomfort in relationships. Women point their finger at themselves and they say, what's wrong with me?

00:07:05:20 - 00:07:31:02
Dr. Robin Stern
Like, I don't know what's going on. I'm so confused. And usually in those cases, what's wrong is that they're not aware that something is happening in the relationship. Some dynamic is at play. That's called gaslighting. Not always best lighting. It could be just straight out abuse. But if you feel confused constantly and unsafe constantly and second guessing yourself constantly, that's not okay.

00:07:31:02 - 00:07:57:14
Dr. Robin Stern
There's something wrong and it's not you. when you were talking about people framing you up front or you're feeling framed up front, what comes to mind is this couple I worked with where he was, the person who took care of the finances in the house, and she knew that he had a more complete education, if you will, about money and handling money, making money, spending it, balancing balance sheets.

00:07:57:18 - 00:08:21:14
Dr. Robin Stern
But every time they would begin to have a conversation about money, he would say, God, I already have a headache. The bills came in today. Let's go. And so she felt like something wrong with me from the very beginning of the conversation. And of course, was not at her best. And they'd have the conversation. He would get really aggravated with her because she couldn't participate.

00:08:21:15 - 00:08:56:06
Dr. Robin Stern
What's wrong with you? Like, I'm asking you a question, and she really didn't want to answer the question because it was hard for her to be truthful, was hard to feel safe saying anything that she knew he would question because he already told her that he had a headache. He already told her that she wasn't fit to have the conversation, and when she got to my office for the first time, she told me that she didn't know anything about money and that she didn't know what to do because her husband was deserving of a real partner and she couldn't really be a partner with him.

00:08:56:06 - 00:09:28:06
Dr. Robin Stern
In assessing what was going on with their finances, figuring out how to spend their money, how to balance whatever the particulars were. Her discomfort with money and with her thinking around money was not something that she generated all by herself. She might have needed more of an education. She certainly needed more experience. But the fact that she felt like less than capable. Of thinking somewhere came from somewhere.

00:09:28:06 - 00:09:37:16
Dr. Robin Stern
And then of course, he would continue the guessing this. Something wrong with What is wrong with you? I didn't say anything about your ability with money. Just like, get with the program.

00:09:37:20 - 00:10:00:16
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, and he didn't. And that's the part that such a mind f, right? Because they don't have to say directly you are bad with money, but they frame it that way. My abuser actually convinced me, particularly around money, that I was bad with money. And it was actually very specifically around Starbucks. And I've told this story a few times, and so many women are like, oh my God, what's with abusers and Starbucks?

00:10:00:16 - 00:10:15:18
Lisa Sonni
But I would have, you know, I worked in the corporate environment in a big city. I would go to Starbucks three times a week and get a latte. And at the time I remember the price. It was $5.65 three times a week. But I was making really good money. In fact, a hell of a lot more than him.

00:10:15:18 - 00:10:38:15
Lisa Sonni
But yet he would constantly tell me that I was bankrupting our family with my Starbucks addiction, and it always was made to feel like I was bad with money. So one day he suggested that he remove a burden from me, which was managing all of our money. In the end, he nearly bankrupted us But it certainly wasn't like a less than $20 a week Starbucks quote addiction.

00:10:38:19 - 00:10:47:08
Lisa Sonni
But it was ridiculous. But he it was slow and convinced me over time and, you know, felt like he was helping me. And I believed him because I loved him.

00:10:47:08 - 00:10:56:06
Dr. Robin Stern
Did you initially second guess yourself or did you initially second guess him? And then it turned into second guessing yourself like, no, that's not true.

00:10:56:10 - 00:11:15:08
Lisa Sonni
why is Because I was like, mathematically speaking, right. If you do 565, it's less than $20 a week. I started being like, but I earn this and I that and I don't. I'm not spending money on other things. I'm not what I'm bringing in most of the money. I just, I don't understand. But it was just this repeated like, but do the math.

00:11:15:08 - 00:11:45:08
Lisa Sonni
He would keep saying do the math. And I'm like, But I'm doing the But my math was wrong. It's my math. How do you. Math isn't subjective, but it's it's interesting to look back and go, how did he convince me that math wasn't math and that I was, in fact, irresponsible with money? Because if I really started to get to specific with math and I mean, I grabbed a calculator multiple times, but he would be like, oh, you're so ridiculous, you're making this a big thing and then change the topic, or not want to talk about it anymore or get bored of these conversations.

00:11:45:08 - 00:11:54:23
Lisa Sonni
But it was always some way to derail me. And a lot of like, what's wrong with you? Why don't you understand what you're doing? Is something wrong with me? Oh my God.

00:11:55:03 - 00:12:18:14
Dr. Robin Stern
Yeah. You know, I'm thinking about my own experience with an ex relationship. Where when he wouldn't show up for dinner on time and actually wrote about this in my book. I would say, hey, we're missing you. Sorry you're late. I'll warm up dinner. But in the future, I'd really appreciate it if you would let me know if you're going to be late and we can serve a little bit later.

00:12:18:15 - 00:12:38:23
Dr. Robin Stern
The kids don't have to wait for you. And he ultimately would respond by saying, some version of you really have a problem with time. And initially I said, I don't have any problem with time. We asked me what time dinner was. I told you what time it was, and here is a half hour late again. You're a half hour late again and it's fine.

00:12:38:23 - 00:12:59:23
Dr. Robin Stern
I understand things happen, but just call me. And so he would begin to say things like, your parents are so anal and that's, you know, they probably taught you that these things are like really important, but actually they're not important at all. And who cares if I'm like 20 minutes late and was tired of having the conversation, but I noticed and I was Lisa,

00:12:59:23 - 00:13:25:09
Dr. Robin Stern
I was writing my book at the time. I was writing The Gaslight Effect, so I knew about gaslighting, But I could feel myself. I could feel myself moving from, that's crazy. You are wrong to well, maybe, maybe you're right. And he really got me when he said, you know, there are a lot of other women who wouldn't be bothered by this at all and wouldn't feel disrespected at all.

00:13:25:09 - 00:13:47:20
Dr. Robin Stern
So not only was I crazy about time and my parents were anal, but now also I was not like other women who were more freewheeling and flexible. And so was laughing at myself because I actually knew that he was gaslighting me. But I couldn't grab on to that moment of truth for myself and stay firm because I wanted him.

00:13:47:20 - 00:14:11:09
Dr. Robin Stern
And this is really important for for us and for for people listening. I wanted him to understand that, no, the problem was not me was him. And that was never going to happen. And it wasn't until I just let go of the conversation completely and realize he's never going to hear me, I could stop that. Gaslighting. Yeah. People who were experiencing gaslighting.

00:14:11:09 - 00:14:33:17
Dr. Robin Stern
Really? You don't like that accusatory finger being pointed at you. You don't want your husband to think you are not able to talk about money, not able to deal with money, not able to have an appropriate or flexible in that case. In his case, concept of time. Not able to be joyous when he wants you to be joyous, not able to whatever it is.

00:14:33:18 - 00:14:37:17
Dr. Robin Stern
so you start second guessing yourself and and stay stuck.

00:14:37:18 - 00:14:51:22
Lisa Sonni
It's so hard to get unstuck. You know, you're hearing things like, God, I can already tell you're going to make this into such a big deal, or here you go, twisting things again when you didn't or listen. I'm trying to talk calmly and you're already emotional and you're not emotional.

00:14:52:01 - 00:14:55:01
Dr. Robin Stern
oh, God. Here we go. We go. Right? Yeah,

00:14:55:03 - 00:15:06:00
Lisa Sonni
yeah. It's brutal, you know? But they're not responding to your reaction. That's the key thing here, right? They are scripting your reaction in advance, framing you in a very specific way.

00:15:06:04 - 00:15:40:13
Dr. Robin Stern
You are responding to your. Yeah. And you're thinking what's wrong with me that like am I alienating my my partner right now? Yeah. I remember someone I work with many years ago who was so stuck in being a good girlfriend, having that be the way her boyfriend thought of her, that she was afraid to say to him his backstory. They lived across the country from each other, and the only time they could talk to each other on a regular basis was in the morning because he was married to someone else.

00:15:40:13 - 00:16:02:00
Dr. Robin Stern
And so they were together on that phone call because she was willing to be late for work so that she could call him. And when she came to me, she said, I don't want to do this anymore. I really I can't be late for work all the time. But he will think I don't love him. He told me that if I can't call him at 10:00 every morning, then I don't love him.

00:16:02:02 - 00:16:19:15
Dr. Robin Stern
And she was so afraid to say that sentence to him. I just can't keep up these phone calls. Not just because she was afraid of losing the relationship, but because she was afraid of losing his assignment of her as good girlfriend.

00:16:19:17 - 00:16:21:04
Lisa Sonni
It was so. It was an identity.

00:16:21:05 - 00:16:35:08
Dr. Robin Stern
Exactly important for her identity to be his good girlfriend, to show him love in exactly the way he wanted to be shown love. And it took her Lisa two years to be able to change that phone call.

00:16:35:08 - 00:16:50:09
Lisa Sonni
It seems so easy, right? Just leave and it's like. Oh, like you can't when you feel crazy or when you wonder. The doubt is often the thing that kind of creates this paralysis because we want clear answers. I mean, that's how people work, right? We want clarity. We want to know something.

00:16:50:09 - 00:16:56:19
Dr. Robin Stern
and we believe we're going to get it. So we wait around until that clarity comes, but it only becomes more and more confusion.

00:16:56:19 - 00:17:25:08
Lisa Sonni
It's crazy making all of it. And in fact, you know, leading into the sort of next one that I'm calling weaponized reasonableness, right? It's when they're calm and they wind you up and and they look, you know, socially acceptable and polished, maybe, but it's still manipulation. They sound mature, or they call themselves mature. They call you emotional. But that contrast makes you look irrational, but it makes you feel irrational as well.

00:17:25:08 - 00:17:41:02
Lisa Sonni
So they might use a tone. It could be, you know, like I'm just trying to have an adult conversation here. Stop acting like a child. It's like what? They look calm. And if they say it calmly, right. Because I have it even at a tone as I'm saying it. But what if it's just sort of like, hey, listen, I'm being an adult here.

00:17:41:03 - 00:17:49:02
Lisa Sonni
Can you also be an adult, please? It's like what I am. Being an adult makes you defensive right off the Why do you think that would work so well?

00:17:49:08 - 00:18:12:21
Dr. Robin Stern
Well, because they're so reasonable. And that becomes part of the what becomes weaponized as well. So here's an example. Man and woman living together many years had a lot of common property together. And one day they meet on the street picking up their child from school. And he says to her, I have some really good news for

00:18:12:23 - 00:18:35:13
Dr. Robin Stern
And he was a pretty steady as it goes guy, and he was not somebody who had a big temper. So she didn't wasn't surprised that he would be putting something out in a reasonable way that she knew was going to be big news, because he never started like a sentence like that. I thought, you know something? I'm going to tell you something important, okay?

00:18:35:18 - 00:18:58:01
Dr. Robin Stern
Said, I sold our lithograph today, this lithograph they had bought together many years ago and had appreciated quite a bit because the artist had passed away since. And she took a deep breath because they had agreed never to sell it unless they both agreed to sell it. And. She said, you sold the lithograph? And he said, yes, I sold the lithograph.

00:18:58:01 - 00:19:21:23
Dr. Robin Stern
And I put, I put some money in your bank account to. And she said, I can't believe. And she could feel herself. When she told me about it. She said she could feel herself getting really aggravated and really like she was coming out of being stunned to, like, aggravated and then climbing to furious really quickly. And she's okay.

00:19:21:23 - 00:19:41:15
Dr. Robin Stern
So he's telling me this in a reasonable way, but it is completely unreasonable. And she said, yes, you you sold something that we agreed that this was not okay. And she could feel her tone getting louder and irritated, and he stayed completely steady. Yes. And I put some money in your bank account to, she said, I don't want the money.

00:19:41:15 - 00:20:05:06
Dr. Robin Stern
I want the lithograph. There you go, there you go. You are so ungrateful. And then she thought, this is it. Like, this is like absolutely crazy. And she started to cry even though they were on the street. And she said, this is complete. And he said, look at you. You're hysterical. I just gave you money. And look, listen to what happened here.

00:20:05:06 - 00:20:28:02
Dr. Robin Stern
I told you in a completely reasonable tone that I sold something and I put money in your account and look at you look like you're a mess. And she came to me a mess. She said I he's right, like he was completely reasonable, but. And then she would second guess herself as she was telling the story. I know it wasn't okay.

00:20:28:02 - 00:20:36:03
Dr. Robin Stern
I knew that he was trying to pull one over on me and is that, like, all the other things he does? Is that gaslighting to.

00:20:36:03 - 00:20:57:09
Lisa Sonni
I'm saying yes, because that's exactly what it is. I look at me, I'm reasonable. You hear, like, let's be logical or why are you getting so worked up again? When they say it so calmly, it's just I think the impact on the person that it's happening to is there gets to be a lot of shame around even having an emotion or having a reaction.

00:20:57:09 - 00:21:10:00
Lisa Sonni
So then you start to suppress your feelings, your intuition. You're doubting yourself. You feel crazy for having human reactions to things that deserve. That's right. Some kind of human response.

00:21:10:01 - 00:21:34:18
Dr. Robin Stern
Yes. And I really am glad you brought up the word shame, because it's an important piece of what keeps people stuck in these relationships. Because when you feel ashamed of what you're putting up with, or the way you feel or who you've become, even if you are now looking at yourself through the eyes of the person doing the gaslighting and so you're not even seeing yourself clearly, there's so much shame that you don't talk about it.

00:21:34:20 - 00:22:02:03
Dr. Robin Stern
And once you start to isolate yourself and you're not talking to the people who can be your great flight attendants that I used to call them in my book, the people who can signal danger for you, like your close friends, trusted relatives, you're on your own channel and his channel all the time. And when you're only listening to that channel, you're in deep trouble. And the shame keeps you there. And It's so painful and so hard.

00:22:02:07 - 00:22:25:03
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. I truly don't wish any of this on my worst enemy. But something I want women to know is truly. Sometimes I want people to know this. You know, sometimes the calmest person in the room is causing the most damage. Yeah. We need to know that calm is not reasonable necessarily, right? I mean, of course it can be, but not when when you feel like you're being abused and somebody calm and you're very reactionary.

00:22:25:03 - 00:22:45:02
Lisa Sonni
It doesn't mean that you're the problem. Another key sort of gaslighting piece here is this strategic forgetfulness. And I know I can kind of go into like weaponized incompetence, but we're talking about this sort of I don't remember that. Or we just see things differently. I don't remember promising to take you to dinner. I don't remember that conversation.

00:22:45:02 - 00:23:06:02
Lisa Sonni
I don't think we agreed to that. And it seems like it's framed of just, you know, I don't remember or even the ones that will sort of admit I just have a bad memory or I have ADHD, which whether they have or don't have ADHD, my point would always be because my abuser had ADHD is always it's your responsibility to find ways to help yourself.

00:23:06:02 - 00:23:26:07
Lisa Sonni
One thing I noticed in my comment section, anytime I talk about this sort of forgetfulness or even weaponized incompetence, you hear a lot of men saying, but what if he has ADHD? Women, however, who are like, hi, I have ADHD and I figured it out. I figure out my own solutions. So and I have. My mother has ADHD, my son has ADHD.

00:23:26:08 - 00:23:39:00
Lisa Sonni
This is not that's that's just one subset. And a small percentage of people even have that. So this is not what this is about. The strategy of I just don't remember. It's so innocent. But is it.

00:23:39:01 - 00:24:10:09
Dr. Robin Stern
Well it certainly isn't innocent. It's it's maddening actually. And what happens so often is when you're in that interaction, you get stuck in this power struggle, like who's right or who's wrong. And you begin to forget that after a while, it doesn't even matter who's writer who's wrong, because you are being pulled through the mud. Yeah. On whatever it is that your husband decides to pull you through the mud about, but you are being told you're wrong over and over.

00:24:10:09 - 00:24:37:00
Dr. Robin Stern
And usually it doesn't come solely with that statement. You're no, you're not right about this. Don't you know, like you know, that anybody would say that you're not a person to talk about memory? Like, what are you talking about? You forget these things all the time. it's so maddening because usually the conversations happen, when you've been counting on something that was based in something that somebody said,

00:24:37:00 - 00:25:01:10
Dr. Robin Stern
and I love this one guy. I love the story, actually, I don't love the story, but I love to tell the story of a guy who said early on in the relationship, I'm always as good as my word. I want you to remember that. And it's something that we all want to hear. Like how how refreshing to be dating somebody who reflects on those kinds of things,

00:25:01:11 - 00:25:22:16
Dr. Robin Stern
who wants you to feel safe from the very beginning. But of course, it turned out it wasn't always as good as this word. But every time his partner would say, wait a minute, you told me that that we were going there, or you told me that we were we were going to do that. And he would say, but what do you know about me?

00:25:22:20 - 00:25:45:02
Dr. Robin Stern
Or did you forget that, too? I'm as good as my word. And so if I don't remember it, if I said it, I'd be doing it. So, baby, I didn't say it because guess what? Remember, I'm as good as my word. And initially the woman in the situation like, no, you're not as good as your word. Actually, you lying to me right now? Yep.

00:25:45:04 - 00:26:06:02
Dr. Robin Stern
But over time, she began to think, you know what? He did say that about himself. And maybe. Maybe I maybe I'm so caught up in wanting him to be somebody he's not that I thought he promised that, but he never did. And so then it gets into a struggle of who's writer, who is wrong, and how do you get out of that power struggle.

00:26:06:06 - 00:26:08:05
Lisa Sonni
Leave the relationship. But

00:26:08:05 - 00:26:32:10
Dr. Robin Stern
certainly. The conversation and maybe the relationship, take a break and call it what it is. You know what? It's beginning to feel like a power struggle, and it's less important who's right than the fact that I feel like crap right now. I just don't want to be in this conversation. You're abusing me and my feelings matter. And if you don't want to use the word abuse, you think that's a trigger for more abuse? You know, I'm just uncomfortable right now.

00:26:32:14 - 00:26:40:01
Dr. Robin Stern
It's my issue. I'm uncomfortable. I don't like these yelling things or I don't like this back and forth. And so I'm going to go have some tea

00:26:40:02 - 00:26:59:12
Lisa Sonni
right I feel like, you know, some of the forgetfulness that these abusers have. It always seems to be around accountability. Do you notice that anything that they would be accountable for, they forget suddenly? Not such a good memory, but I think it creates this really exhausting cycle where a victim becomes the the historian, the witness, the prosecutor.

00:26:59:12 - 00:27:16:14
Lisa Sonni
You have to remember all the details. Remember when you said it, how you said it. I know you could say something like, I remember this conversation because we were in the kitchen and you were standing there and you were holding a Diet Coke. You were standing by the sink, and he'll interrupt you and be like, no, no, I was drinking a Dr. Pepper.

00:27:16:15 - 00:27:30:12
Lisa Sonni
So you don't remember any of the details. It still confuses you, but you're, like, trying so hard to remember all the facts because he's not. Find it interesting how they can both be so forgetful. But remember that they didn't say it exactly.

00:27:30:14 - 00:27:56:21
Dr. Robin Stern
Makes no sense. gaslighting is a wonderful way to get out of that hot seat. So I say to you, you know, just realizing I've been trying to reach you several nights this week at work. And and I remember that you told me you made a point of telling me that you would always have your phone with you if I if the office was shut down and the board didn't work or whatever, and I needed to call you, I could always call you.

00:27:56:21 - 00:28:17:03
Dr. Robin Stern
And he said, I never said that. What are you talking about? I never told you I'd have my phone with me all the time. What? You're making things up and you're paranoid to, like, where do you think I was? I was in my office. I don't know what you told me. I remember because I had just gotten off the phone with my cousin, and we were talking about her husband and her,

00:28:17:05 - 00:28:43:15
Dr. Robin Stern
I don't know. You have a problem. Just own it. And at the end of that conversation, like the end of the the more momentary, oh, you're so sensitive or my God, you're so dramatic. You walk away and you think. Am I dramatic, am I sensitive? Did I not remember that? Rather than wait a minute, I couldn't reach him four nights in a row and that's not okay.

00:28:43:20 - 00:29:24:16
Dr. Robin Stern
And so when you're processing it, which most of us don't take the time to really do, because not aware that we're being assaulted by something somebody is weaponizing something towards that. We we don't take the time to say, Do I want to be with somebody who I'm having these conversations with. Do I want to be in this moment fighting for my reality to be heard, fighting to be seen and understood, fighting to be treated with kindness and not undermined and not Looking at your rolling of your eyes or dismissing what I know to be true.

00:29:24:18 - 00:29:31:02
Dr. Robin Stern
And usually the answer is no, I don't want that. But I can't stand it that he thinks of me this way.

00:29:31:06 - 00:29:55:23
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, it feels awful. That's one of the worst parts is like, you think I'm, you know, forgetful or stupid or something's wrong with me, or that I am bankrupting or family, whatever. But it feels so awful to be thought of as that. I kind of question, though. I mean, given how purposeful gaslighting tends to be, why we even think that they really think the things that they're saying, they're saying it to gaslight you.

00:29:55:23 - 00:29:59:05
Lisa Sonni
It doesn't have to be true. I think the whole point is that it isn't. Yeah.

00:29:59:06 - 00:30:32:08
Dr. Robin Stern
Well, first of all, I do want people to know there are times when we do gaslight people, and it isn't purposeful to undermine their confidence in their judgment. And I just want to make sure that we we talk about that. Like, for example, parents often when they're afraid of something their kid might do. One of the examples that I share a lot is of someone who was telling me a story of her friend, whose mom said to her, you, you're not going to go to that concert, right?

00:30:32:08 - 00:30:46:07
Dr. Robin Stern
You're not that kind of girl. And she said, no, I'm going to the concert. I don't know what you're talking about, mama. I'm a good girl, you know that. And I'm going with my friends and we're, I don't know, good girls don't go to that kind of concert. And really, the mother didn't want her to go to the concert.

00:30:46:07 - 00:31:12:00
Dr. Robin Stern
She was afraid that something would happen. They'd have drugs, there'd be drinking, they'd have a car accident, God forbid. But rather than saying, I don't want you to to go to the concert, you're not going. I'm your mom. Period. She tried to manipulate her into not wanting to go to the concert, which worked, but the unintended consequence was that this girl stopped trusting her judgment.

00:31:12:03 - 00:31:37:16
Dr. Robin Stern
Not just about that concert, but maybe I don't really know who I am. You know, my mom. My mom wouldn't say that to me. Like, maybe I am more like those bad girls. you know? So. So when you're even when you're gaslighting without purpose, without the intent to be doing that undermining of your judgment thing to someone else, it can have that unintended consequence.

00:31:37:16 - 00:31:39:00
Dr. Robin Stern
And it's very serious.

00:31:39:00 - 00:32:01:14
Lisa Sonni
In all cases, I agree that it's it's serious. I think that a person who, if you bring it to them, they would be receptive to going, okay, I didn't realize the impact and make some changes, but a gaslight or a true gas later they'll just gaslight you more to get out of it or move the goalposts, which is another sort of subtle ish covert tactic of the expectations are always shifting.

00:32:01:16 - 00:32:19:06
Lisa Sonni
You know, it's what was once enough is suddenly not enough. Things just change. Standards change after you meet them. You know, I'm just making something up. But like, you know, make sure when I come home dinner's ready by 6:00. And then once you do that, it's like, no, it needs to be ready at 545, or it needs to be a different dinner or something.

00:32:19:06 - 00:32:23:07
Lisa Sonni
It's just it keeps you in this, I don't know, chronic over functioning.

00:32:23:09 - 00:32:45:13
Dr. Robin Stern
It's interesting that recently worked with a couple where that was serious problem between the two of them. They she really wanted to please him and he was very demanding about what he ate for dinner every single night. So they stopped going out because he didn't like the restaurants anymore that they had been going for their entire time of dating, which was a few years.

00:32:45:13 - 00:33:20:03
Dr. Robin Stern
And she said, well, what what are you loving these days? And so he told her what he wanted. She made it the night she made it. He said, tired of this, I don't want it anymore. And she said, but wait a minute, you told me you love this. I'm. I'm done with it. No. Not anymore. And it repeated itself to the point where she was so frustrated that she said she used to go to the grocery store and she would feel physically exhausted suddenly as she walked into the store because she couldn't even make a choice anymore.

00:33:20:05 - 00:33:47:10
Dr. Robin Stern
She said, I really don't even know what he likes anymore, and I'm afraid of getting yelled at. And I'm afraid of that expression on his face where I know, like, I'm disgusted with you. I don't want to see that that face anymore. And she did say to him, I feel like I can't do anything right, like I'm, you told me, do this, and I did this, and then you said, no, do that.

00:33:47:11 - 00:34:02:23
Dr. Robin Stern
And I did that. And like, I don't even know what the next thing is. And I think it was that feeling that she said, you know, I love him, but I can't live with this feeling. So something has to happen. Am I causing this?

00:34:02:23 - 00:34:22:00
Lisa Sonni
Wondering if you're causing it. I think that I use this analogy a lot of how abusive and narcissistic people will sort of hold up a carrot and dangle it at you. You're always just within reach of the solution. You just need to try just a little bit harder. And it really connects to this. Moving the goalposts because you're almost there.

00:34:22:01 - 00:34:30:12
Lisa Sonni
Just do something slightly differently. Safety is just one step away. Getting back to the good version of him. You're so close and it keeps you.

00:34:30:17 - 00:34:37:07
Dr. Robin Stern
Just one step away. Yes. You know and and we can we can take a deep breath and we can rest,

00:34:37:10 - 00:34:55:09
Lisa Sonni
right? You know, people get told a lot to communicate better. And I heard that so much. And I hear it from clients as well of just, you know, you just need to communicate better. But it's even gaslighting and you need to communicate better, okay. So you communicate better, but then you do and it's your tone and then you change your tone.

00:34:55:10 - 00:35:08:23
Lisa Sonni
It's the timing. Now you brought it up at the wrong moment. You brought it up on a Tuesday. I told you, don't bug me during the week. It should be on a weekend. You bring it up on Saturday and it's now you're harassing me when I'm trying to rest. You're still on that? It was days ago. What's wrong with you?

00:35:08:23 - 00:35:11:17
Lisa Sonni
It's. Nothing is ever good enough for you all.

00:35:11:17 - 00:35:37:14
Dr. Robin Stern
It's just. It's a beautiful example. And. And I think that the, the layer underneath it also is that it's not just that the goalposts move, it's that you begin to feel That your lover or your partner husband is disgusted with you or impatient with you or can't stand it anymore. So you're then feeling worse and worse about yourself.

00:35:37:14 - 00:35:46:22
Dr. Robin Stern
So it takes a huge chunk out of your self-esteem, your confidence, and you begin very often to just give up on it altogether.

00:35:47:01 - 00:35:51:10
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, because it feels so futile, you know, like you're never going to get there.

00:35:51:12 - 00:35:54:18
Dr. Robin Stern
We're going to order in. I'm not shopping anymore. I can't do it.

00:35:54:18 - 00:36:14:18
Lisa Sonni
I love giving up in that sense because it's an unwinnable game. You know, it's but I think the impact that that it has on us is hypervigilance and obviously the self-blame that we were talking about perfectionism, but we were trying so hard and you're never going to get it right. It's a great strategy, I have to admit. For abusers,

00:36:14:18 - 00:36:31:15
Dr. Robin Stern
And what's so interesting is sometimes you didn't learn it as a child. You just happened into it like you use it once because you're on the hot seat. Oh, I don't want to tell her where I was last night. No, no, don't be so paranoid. I was where I told you I was. You have a problem. And it worked.

00:36:31:15 - 00:37:04:11
Dr. Robin Stern
And once it works, it becomes part of your repertoire. Especially if you can't deal with uncomfortable feelings. And so much of what happens for the gaslighting, the person doing the gaslighting is that they are somehow destabilized. If it's not that they're outright lying, they are just caught off guard about something, or they don't want to come forward, or they don't know how to talk about their feelings. Like, I'm really uncomfortable about this, I don't I'm I don't want I don't want to apologize for being late because I don't actually think I like it.

00:37:04:11 - 00:37:16:22
Dr. Robin Stern
There's a problem. But like, clearly it's a problem for you, but there's no other person in the gaslighting dynamic to consider. It's really all about you from the perspective of the gas lighter.

00:37:17:00 - 00:37:36:05
Lisa Sonni
One of the ones that I think is the most impactful and truly sent me into a rage when I was experiencing this, but when I see it in my clients, when I hear about this, it is one of, to me, the most common that I see that is so covert that people don't name as gaslighting, which is that reversal of intent over impact. Right?

00:37:36:06 - 00:37:56:23
Lisa Sonni
I didn't mean to. And so now you are to focus only on their alleged intent, which I would argue in, again, not all cases, but in a lot of cases there is intent to harm, but they want you to focus on the fact that they didn't mean that. You need to focus on what I meant to say, not what I did say or what meant to happen, but didn't actually happen.

00:37:57:00 - 00:38:11:11
Lisa Sonni
Gaslighting is not something that always happens so loud. Sometimes it is just so covert. And I really appreciate this conversation, and I encourage people to check out your content and read your book. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate your time.

00:38:11:14 - 00:38:32:04
Dr. Robin Stern
Lisa. Thank you so much for inviting me. Thank you for elevating the topic of gaslighting and shining a light on it. And I would just say to everyone listening, it's very hard to free yourself from gaslighting or even to limit the gaslighting that you're going through, because maybe you can't actually leave. And so please start with compassion for yourself.

00:38:32:05 - 00:38:54:06
Dr. Robin Stern
Include yourself in the the circle of people you give compassion to and have patience. Write things down. Talk to people who you trust. Their perception of you is over time, and stay firmly in your reality. Check in with your own feelings and don't let anybody tell you what you feel.

00:38:54:08 - 00:39:04:00
Lisa Sonni
If this episode gave you clarity. Share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember, you're stronger than before.

00:39:04:01 - 00:39:07:03
Music
Stronger than before.