Character Isn’t Chemistry: How to Stop Falling for Sparks and Start Seeing Who He Really Is | Chantel Hyde S4E5

If you've ever felt terrified to date again after abuse, wondered why your "radar" keeps failing you, or questioned how to trust yourself (and others) moving forward—this episode is going to validate everything you've sensed and give you clear, practical tools to move forward with confidence. Canada’s Dating Coach Chantel Hyde joins us to share her powerful insights drawn from sociology, psychology, personal experience, and years of coaching women through healing and dating. We dive deep into why slowing down is non-negotiable, how to properly vet partners, the biology and psychology behind toxic attraction, and how to rebuild your self-respect so you never settle for less again. This conversation dismantles the societal conditioning that leads women into unhealthy dynamics and replaces it with empowering strategies for choosing (and being chosen by) high-quality partners.

Join Lisa Sonni & Dr. Peter Salerno in Boston, MA November 13-15, 2026 here: https://lisasonni.com/unbreakable-and-irreplaceable/

Transcript

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00:00:00:13 - 00:00:08:18
Lisa Sonni


00:00:08:20 - 00:00:18:01
Lisa Sonni
This is real talk with Lisa Sonni: Relationships Uncensored, the podcast they don't want you listening to.

00:00:18:03 - 00:00:42:03
Lisa Sonni
Today's conversation is such an important one, especially for women who have escaped an abusive relationship and are even thinking about dating again, thinking about getting themselves back out into the world, getting into another relationship because abuse really hijacks your internal radar. I have so many women who are just terrified to ever date again because they feel like they're going to meet another abuser, another narcissist.

00:00:42:03 - 00:01:01:04
Lisa Sonni
And the number one question I get is, how do you make sure that you don't meet another one? So my guest today is someone who actually does a lot of work really helping women kind of build up what they need to know and what values they need to start looking at, and really stop romanticizing potential and look at what's right in front of you.

00:01:01:04 - 00:01:11:07
Lisa Sonni
So I want to introduce Chantal Heide, Canada's Dating Coach, but I want to turn it over to you and just have you talk a little bit about your background and really what got you into this work. Hi, Lisa.

00:01:11:13 - 00:01:40:05
Chantal Heide
My background is a deep study of social sciences. So sociology, psychology at biology, evolutionary psychology, behaviorism, and meditation in combination with working as a stripper for 20 years. So this is an environment where people don't have a facade. This is an environment where people are having drinks, which is a truth serum. This is an environment where males especially go, you know what?

00:01:40:06 - 00:02:03:00
Chantal Heide
It doesn't matter what I say. It doesn't matter how I act. It doesn't matter what kind of truths I tell. I'm going to leave all this behind after tonight and there's not going to be any repercussions. So when I would sit across them and I would bring this scientific mind in a naked body wearing makeup and high heels, I was not seen as a threat whatsoever.

00:02:03:00 - 00:02:25:01
Chantal Heide
So I got the truth from the men who were married in cheating. I got the truth from the ones who were using women and taking vantage of the women who are bartering their bodies for attention. I got the truth from the ones who were the kind of men that you would want to select, because the truth was, they were very hard working and didn't have a lot of time for a relationship.

00:02:25:01 - 00:02:29:04
Chantal Heide
But they had a heart of gold and they had the utmost loyalty. Oh.

00:02:29:09 - 00:02:49:09
Lisa Sonni
I think your background is phenomenal, because I know one of the things that I see in your content is a lot of people, when you talk about the 90 day no kissing rule that you have, a lot of people call you a prude or a have all these thoughts about you. And I'm like, if you guys only knew if you just watched just a handful of her videos, you would realize that she actually has a really interesting background.

00:02:49:09 - 00:02:53:18
Lisa Sonni
And you are the authority on this. How many books have you written?

00:02:53:21 - 00:02:54:21
Chantal Heide
13.

00:02:54:22 - 00:03:07:06
Lisa Sonni
That's not a small number. You know, you really know what you're talking about. And I've got several of them in their phenomenal. I certainly recommend them, especially No More Assholes. But I know you've written so many, but that one was my first and my favorite. I have to admit.

00:03:07:07 - 00:03:32:02
Chantal Heide
It's my best seller and it's my best seller because I'm deconstructing a society that trained women into choosing the wrong relationship, which is what you're all about. Because we were taught to do selection before observation. And what I'm doing is saying, that's not logical. We need to come back to Mother Nature, which is women looking at the males, putting on a display and then selecting the right person.

00:03:32:02 - 00:04:03:23
Chantal Heide
So observation before selection. But we were brainwashed into kissing on a first date and romanticizing that. And then we were brainwashed into thinking fighting as normal. Arguing is healthy because it's the only thing that will back up the first level of brainwashing, which is select the wrong person before you know they're the wrong person. So I'm bringing logic to dating and saying do selection before observation and choose the person who's right for you, and there won't be any fighting, which is chaos, or any arguing, which is a lack of acceptance.

00:04:03:23 - 00:04:24:16
Chantal Heide
You're wrong until you change and you got to change. Because until you change, I'm going to bring this up because you're wrong. Until you change, which is a symptom of picking the wrong person. So I'm saying stop that it doesn't work and it's not for you. It's to benefit males that don't even deserve you. So stop benefiting people who don't deserve you.

00:04:24:17 - 00:04:34:22
Chantal Heide
Pick the person you deserve and have a healthy long term relationship, or choose to just be single. And to be honest, I am the dating coach that encourages you to stay single.

00:04:34:23 - 00:04:54:06
Lisa Sonni
What a wild concept, but I totally agree. I make jokes all the time. I'm not a dating coach. I'm not invested in whether or not people do date or not. But I think people want to, you know, you want companionship, but you don't want to want it so badly that you'll be with someone who's awful. And abusers use love bombing and use speed and connection.

00:04:54:07 - 00:05:15:01
Lisa Sonni
Or I'm really air quoting the connection. They use all of this feeling and hormones to get you to move so quickly that you don't think and you don't actually observe. So your whole kind of concept of slow down is phenomenal. When I first saw your content, I was really like, who is this woman? You know, like you, you had such a strong opinion.

00:05:15:02 - 00:05:31:18
Lisa Sonni
You watched like what, five, six videos. And I think if you are not sold on what you're saying, it's just wild because you have such good concepts that are. So I want to say basic, but in the best way possible. Like you just take something and you make it logical and simple. Don't overthink it. Don't move too fast.

00:05:31:18 - 00:05:39:01
Lisa Sonni
Get to know someone. That's really the core message. And yet it's so controversial that your comment sections are wild.

00:05:39:03 - 00:06:09:22
Chantal Heide
I know, and all I'm doing is I'm taking away the biological warfare that's used against women, which is using our own chemicals against our own best interest, because when we introduce the kiss right away, when we give exclusivity right away, we develop emotions because what we're signaling to our brain is relax. The red flag alert. I've selected a good one, and you would think you selected a good one if you already started kissing.

00:06:09:22 - 00:06:36:12
Chantal Heide
If you already rejected other people in favor of this person. But the kissing creates a chemical that's an aphrodisiac, amphetamine, and antidepressant, and the repetition of rejecting other people signals to the brain. Mate selection has been completed. So we relax into this person and we develop these emotions only to find out down the road we made a mistake and we picked the wrong person.

00:06:36:12 - 00:07:02:14
Chantal Heide
So we have to end the biological warfare by taking away the way they drug us, which is by getting those chemicals involved. The kiss, chemical aphrodisiac, amphetamine, antidepressants. So my methodology is no kissing, no sex. So again, we're not introducing a ton of chemicals that will fool us. No sleepovers means we don't allow encroachment, meaning we will have time to think at the end of the day, which we must do.

00:07:02:15 - 00:07:12:05
Chantal Heide
We have to mull over the day in order to properly assess it. And no, exclusivity means I don't reject the right person because they showed up five days after the wrong person.

00:07:12:06 - 00:07:37:06
Lisa Sonni
Which again, wild concept, right? It's all so healthy, you know? And I think so many people are unhealthy. The average person, the statistic is something like nine out of ten people are not considered mentally healthy. So so many people are entering these relationships. Every time I hear you talk about what not to do, I think about how that's exactly what I used to do and how that's exactly what led me to being in an abusive relationship for a decade.

00:07:37:07 - 00:07:58:08
Lisa Sonni
I kissed too fast. We slept together too fast. I was completely smitten. I wasn't paying attention to the red flags, I ignored everything. I was completely sold on potential. Even when you look at the the list of traits that you often hold up, I look at the trait of honesty. How did I determine that? He was honest. Really great way he he told me he was honest.

00:07:58:09 - 00:08:08:15
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, I didn't actually assess it. I just he told me stories about how he was honest, therefore he's honest. But your list of traits, how do you assess that.

00:08:08:15 - 00:08:30:04
Chantal Heide
So over time. Right. And basically what we're doing is we're not taking what people say at face value. And the list of traits is completely fair because we define ourselves to know what we deserve. And then we say, show me who you are. Like, I'm not going to. Obviously, the guy who wants to get in bed with us right away is going to say, trust me, bro.

00:08:30:05 - 00:08:49:15
Chantal Heide
Trust me, I'm everything looking for. Go ahead. You know, let me in your home. Let me stay over, let me kiss you, let me have sex with you. Reject other people for me because I'm the best you'll ever have. Trust me bro, and what we are doing as intelligent people is saying I don't take what anybody says at face value.

00:08:49:16 - 00:09:13:00
Chantal Heide
That house that I saw on the online listing when I'm shopping for a home, that house listing said beautiful upkeep, well desired neighborhood. Everything you want is here. Okay, but I'm still going to do a title search to make sure when I hand my money over, it's not going to get stolen by somebody pretending to own the house they're trying to sell me.

00:09:13:00 - 00:09:30:03
Chantal Heide
Oh, and by the way, I'm also going to do a home inspection because, of course, you're showing me the new furnace in the new roof. But I need someone who's going to look at the foundation and let me know whether or not that's leaking, because you're not going to tell me you just put a fresh coat of paint over the mold in your basement.

00:09:30:04 - 00:09:49:17
Lisa Sonni
You're basically saying, we need proof. And I mean, again, it is such a normal thing getting proof. So in my own example, right. I just believed that he was honest. I found out, of course, obviously. Right. He was super dishonest. But I wonder all the time if I had waited, if I had used your rules, you know, where would where would I be now?

00:09:49:18 - 00:09:57:19
Lisa Sonni
I'm sure in a much better position. I think it's a really powerful thing for women to slow down. Why is that so hard, though?

00:09:57:21 - 00:10:22:23
Chantal Heide
Well, first of all, I want to replace the word waiting with vetting because I'm such a word nerd. And I think it's listen, this culture that brainwashed us did it by using words. So in order for us to to find our strength and our commitment to ourselves and to turning patriarchy over into matriarchy, we need to be equally committed to using the right words.

00:10:22:23 - 00:10:44:02
Chantal Heide
So when you go to a movie theater and you pick the movie from all the listings that are there, you're vetting when you stand in line to buy your ticket, you're waiting. And people who are waiting, trying to use my methodology, loosey goosey. You're not vetting because you're not going beyond their words to make sure reality's matching what they're saying.

00:10:44:02 - 00:11:13:04
Chantal Heide
So it's important to understand that my methodology is a methodology, because if you pick up on some of my videos and you go, okay, no kissing for three months, but you're not using the methodology by the book and going beyond their words, the manipulative ones are going to outwit you. So it is important that we understand the difference between holding back and waiting versus I'm not interested in kissing somebody who's wrong for me.

00:11:13:04 - 00:11:25:23
Chantal Heide
I'm not holding back on anything. I'm not waiting on anything. I'm examining you. I'm gathering the data, and I'm assessing it so that I understand how to deal with you appropriately.

00:11:25:23 - 00:11:45:13
Lisa Sonni
I love that word correction, actually. And I love that you say you're a word nerd. I am all about certain words and like saying things, labeling things. Vetting is much better because I can totally appreciate how waiting just feels like. Okay, so 90 days. Got it. So today's the 15th will be good. You know, three months from now.

00:11:45:13 - 00:12:10:14
Lisa Sonni
No, no, you need to be thinking during that time and vetting specifically what that's the perfect word for this. It is something that can help people. But we mistake a lot of things that happen early on. For chemistry. Intensity isn't depth, and I think that you get dragged into this intensity, and I absolutely did more than once. And I know so many women who get into it too fast because he seems so nice.

00:12:10:14 - 00:12:30:07
Lisa Sonni
You have all the feelings, but that's not what's it's not authentic. It's not necessarily real. You know, you could be building a trauma bond, which is terrible. And it's not actually emotional intimacy. How can women tell the difference between attachment that's unhealthy versus a healthier attachment that's built over time.

00:12:30:07 - 00:12:54:00
Chantal Heide
And so this is why the three months is so important, because only time will tell that initial attraction when you when you first meet somebody, it's not based on actual knowledge. It's not based on an understanding of who they are as a person. It's just based on what you see in front of your eyes. So those first couple of days, he seems to be chivalrous.

00:12:54:00 - 00:13:27:04
Chantal Heide
He seems to be generous. But does that sustain itself to day 85? Because it might be a facade and it might be just trying to get into bed. And an initial attraction is nothing more than procreation drive when it's not based on actually knowing who the person is. I'm going to talk to to my husband today, 20 years into our relationship, because his confidence is unwavering, his ambition, his long term vision, his intelligence, his sense of humor makes him super sexy.

00:13:27:04 - 00:13:49:04
Chantal Heide
So when I look at him and I, you know, there's always little bits and pieces that always, like kind of pop out at me. Like the way his teeth are just so super straight in front. And anyways, so I have this attraction to him. Not because necessarily how he looks because of 53, you know, the stomach is poking out further than the butt and the hair is certainly gone.

00:13:49:05 - 00:14:16:02
Chantal Heide
So it's not that. It's just I'm so attracted to him still because the character of his personality now, I couldn't say that I had that level of attraction in the beginning because I didn't know the level of his personality. And my husband is actually one of those people that I was not attracted to when I first met him, which really drives home the point that attraction that is genuine is based on who the person is.

00:14:16:02 - 00:14:46:03
Chantal Heide
The more I got to know my husband, the more attracted I became. So if you feel an initial attraction to somebody, say to yourself, okay, that's nice, but good. So far that's not based on knowing who he is. So let me see if this initial attraction based on my eyes seeing symmetry in his face, which is driving my gene code to want to procreate with what appears to be another strong set of gene codes, and my DNA going, this would make a strong enough baby.

00:14:46:04 - 00:15:02:17
Chantal Heide
Let's just take that and put it aside and keep my eyes wide open to see if this is actually the right person and if that attraction based on his makeup, his his symmetry in his face turns into genuine attraction based on what's inside.

00:15:02:19 - 00:15:30:12
Lisa Sonni
And you've got to take the time, you know, you really get to know someone you're not going to miss as many of the red flags, if any at all. Learning how to really vet. Now, a lot of women talk about, you know, I saw the red flags. They look back knowing what they know. Now having there, I always sort of joke like PhDs from YouTube University on all abuse tactics and all of that, and they look back at the beginning of their abusive relationship and they're like, man, I missed so many red flags.

00:15:30:12 - 00:15:51:22
Lisa Sonni
I don't think that women are openly missing them when they're in the relationship. They are blinded to them for a variety of reasons speed and false intimacy and all that. Certainly being part of it and maybe even just wanting to not see those things. But when we slow down, we might see them more. But what do you think, really, it is that women miss when men are creating that sort of false closeness?

00:15:51:22 - 00:15:52:20
Lisa Sonni
In the beginning.

00:15:52:20 - 00:16:17:13
Chantal Heide
I think they miss the fact that we are biologically driven to want to procreate. And so we have a procreation drive that comes with an instinct to do a mate selection in addition to that. That's kind of further pushed on to us by a culture that says you have to pick somebody. And by the way, if you're 30 years old and you haven't yet, shame on you for not pairing up.

00:16:17:16 - 00:16:53:17
Chantal Heide
So there's a societal pressure in addition to the biological pressure. And so in addition to those two pressures, there's a brainwashing that says, oh, by the way, if things get difficult, if you actually start arguing about things, you're in the right place because arguing is healthy and fighting is normal. So good for you. If things become difficult because you start to see red flags and your leg told you're in a relationship now because you're committed to this person.

00:16:53:17 - 00:17:17:02
Chantal Heide
By the way, before you knew who they were. But you're committed to this person. And so now you're in a relationship and relationships, mate. You have to stick it out and you have to make it work because relationships are hard work. And so there's all this brainwashing that says when things stop working because it was a facade in the first place, it was falseness in the first place.

00:17:17:03 - 00:17:30:15
Chantal Heide
It wasn't true in the first place. But when it all starts to fall apart, you got to stay and stick it out. Because fighting is normal. Arguing is healthy. Relationships are work.

00:17:30:19 - 00:17:49:22
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, I think that relationships are hard. Work is one of the most garbage myths that have ever been sold to women. And I suppose men too. But relationships take effort. But I don't know why we had to sort of pitch it as hard work, because hard work kind of sucks, right? You know what? He wants to feel like they're constantly working.

00:17:49:22 - 00:18:06:01
Lisa Sonni
But when women are in abusive relationships and they're working hard and that message is out there that, hey, that's a that's a normal relationship, everybody's working hard. No, they're not. Actually, you once said, I believe that you and your husband don't argue.

00:18:06:03 - 00:18:28:10
Chantal Heide
You don't. Yeah. So by the way, a fight or an argument, it has to be a two way street. So had there been times in the past 20 years when my husband raised his voice at me? Yes, because we were disagreeing about politics of all things, and he got so impassioned, he raised his voice. And what did I do?

00:18:28:10 - 00:18:56:07
Chantal Heide
I got up and I left the room because I'm accepting that he's a conservative leaning person, and he has difficulty with me being a liberal leaning person, but he doesn't have to like it, and I don't have to stay when he doesn't like it. So I probably bring a higher level of acceptance to the relationship than he does, but he accepts where I am.

00:18:56:07 - 00:19:13:19
Chantal Heide
He accepts that I walk away from these situations. He accepts that I will stand strong in my politics, and he's not going to have an influence on that. And so at the end of the day, we just kind of look at our disagreements and we go, I still love you. I still accept you. Do we throw things across the room?

00:19:13:20 - 00:19:31:03
Chantal Heide
Do we yell at each other? No we don't. If one of us gets amped, if I feel my temperature rise, I leave the room. If he doesn't leave the room when his temperature rises, I leave the room when his temperature rises. And he knows better than to follow me because I'm leaving for functionality.

00:19:31:06 - 00:19:50:14
Lisa Sonni
And that's obviously something that's built over time. However, you chose someone, you vetted someone, and you know this about him, and he knows this about you. And that only happens through slowing it down, getting to know someone. I know a lot of people will say like, that's insane. Of course, you know, marriages have fighting and arguments. That's normal.

00:19:50:14 - 00:20:18:19
Lisa Sonni
But again, disagreements are normal. Nobody said fighting is normal because you can disagree with someone and express opinions and, you know, even perhaps have a debate or come to some kind of collaboration or compromise. I get that doesn't mean you agree on everything, but to say that arguing is normal because that starts to normalize chaos and normalizing men screaming at their wives and girlfriends, which even if that's normal or common, that's unacceptable.

00:20:18:19 - 00:20:25:14
Lisa Sonni
I know I feel exactly the same way. If somebody raises her voice to me, I'm out of this room very quickly. I'm not going to be yelled at.

00:20:25:15 - 00:20:53:03
Chantal Heide
Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, the key to having a healthy, long term relationship is you need to choose the person who loves you more than dysfunction. And that is my husband. He does love me more than dysfunction. And that's what he found in me, is somebody who can take responsibility, because we do fight quite a bit in the first ten years, because I wasn't taking responsibility for my own thoughts, emotions and behaviors, and I was vomiting insecurity into the relationship.

00:20:53:03 - 00:21:12:10
Chantal Heide
And then I did learn, you know, meditation, grounding myself in the present, acknowledging who I chose instead of being in my imagination and giving myself unnecessary emotions. So we've had quite a peaceful last ten plus years because of this radical accountability.

00:21:12:15 - 00:21:38:21
Lisa Sonni
I love that. I absolutely love that in the beginning of a relationship, a lot of these men move very quickly, as I said, right? So if a man is relentless, if he's pursuing you, we feel special, we feel chosen, and maybe we think it means that he really, really cares about us. But how can women tell the difference between something like consistency and love bombing, or know that this sort of wooing, this pursuit is going to disappear?

00:21:38:22 - 00:21:46:15
Lisa Sonni
Because this is where that 90 day piece probably really comes in of if he can be consistent more than that long, does that tell us something?

00:21:46:19 - 00:22:15:11
Chantal Heide
Well, exactly. It, because, you know, of course, their courtship phase is going to be hot and heavy in the beginning. I'm going to hold that door. I'm going to make those plans. I'm going to pay for those dates because I want her to think about me a certain way. And we have to think about ourselves as mammals and how in the animal world, which we are a part of, the males put on a display while the females sit back and watch and put on the display.

00:22:15:13 - 00:22:47:02
Chantal Heide
And so we have to ask ourselves, is the display consistent? So is that display of generosity who he actually is. And so we're looking for them sustaining their little dancy dance and showing their feathers and sustaining can, you know, listen, they're building a nest because some of these displays that they do, they'll build a nest and it's like, okay, he's building a very nice nest in the beginning, but will he finish building the nest or does he run out of energy?

00:22:47:02 - 00:23:12:07
Lisa Sonni
I love all the comparisons because and actually, even your background in biology, I think it's so key because so many men will use biology against women. And a perfect example is trying to sleep with you too fast. I have seen in your comment sections and I also just, you know, I'm a human being on planet Earth, and I know that when you talk about this, no kissing, no sex for 90 days, men and women are like, who's waiting that long?

00:23:12:07 - 00:23:17:08
Lisa Sonni
What man would wait 90 days? And I already know your answer. But tell me your answer.

00:23:17:11 - 00:23:45:00
Chantal Heide
Well, they have it wrong. No guy is going to wait 90 days. But a man who is grounded confidently in the present, intentionally looking for a long term relationship, not a hookup. Wanting to use his brain to assess information and choose the right person because he'd rather choose the right person than get into a relationship, only for it to turn chaotic.

00:23:45:05 - 00:24:12:00
Chantal Heide
You know, because men are looking for drama, they're looking for stability. They're looking for calm. They're looking for peace. They're looking for companionship. They're looking for a good fit. They're looking to buy a house that isn't going to be a disaster. So they're doing that title search and the walk through and getting the home inspection done. So when you say to a man, I'm doing 90 days, no kissing, no sex, no supervision, he goes, oh, I see what you're doing.

00:24:12:00 - 00:24:35:18
Chantal Heide
Their title search home inspection. I like how you think, because you strike me as somebody who makes informed decisions. And me, an ambitious, hardworking, responsible man not wanting to bring drama into my life, also wants to make an informed decision. So he's going to say to you, that sounds interesting. Yeah, I agree. Let's see how it goes if we're a good fit before committing.

00:24:35:18 - 00:24:52:02
Chantal Heide
But a selfish, short term thinker, a guy who's really just looking to get in bed with you as soon as possible, doesn't really care about who you are, just looking for convenient access. He goes, oh, that's going to take way too long. I was hoping to hit it and quit it.

00:24:52:06 - 00:25:15:23
Lisa Sonni
Anybody that I think can't see what the point of what you're doing is, I think you've just walked face first into the point. That's exactly your point. A man that won't wait. And as you said, in fact, a guy that won't wait, he's not vetting, he's being impatient, and he's actually telling you I care more about having sex today than I do about if this relationship is successful and long term.

00:25:15:23 - 00:25:41:06
Lisa Sonni
So a man, a guy, a guy that's telling you that he won't take the time to vet you and frankly won't let you vet him, that's a problem. That's he's telling you something. He might as well just say the quiet part out loud, which in a lot of your lives, they do say that out loud. I want to talk about the character of a lot of these men, and I know you have this list that you've held up that's just, again, so phenomenal.

00:25:41:07 - 00:26:09:13
Lisa Sonni
People need this list at every single point on this list. You can't argue with her. It's just such a good list. None of those things can be known in a couple of dates. You start getting a vibe, you know? But to use this time to actually vet someone and see all of that is so key. I think women can often be evaluating charm and again, like a vibe, a feeling, instead of actually looking at his character because they can fake character.

00:26:09:13 - 00:26:22:19
Lisa Sonni
Anyone can fake character. Obviously it's not just men, but tell me what some of your points are there and why they're so important. I know it's a long list, but do you have some favorites that are just absolutely the most important from that list?

00:26:22:20 - 00:26:42:09
Chantal Heide
Yeah. So I mean, we define ourselves to know what we deserve. So the list, when you write it, when you do the formula in No More Assholes because there's work to do in order to be successful at whatever it is that you want to do. So I get you to do the work so that you're successful in dating efficiently and effectively, which is my whole methodology.

00:26:42:09 - 00:26:59:21
Chantal Heide
So I mean, you say like there was traits that are more important and I kind of want to come back with every single one, because when we define ourselves to know what we deserve, if we take one of those off the list, like if I just kind of like, did it randomly, financially responsible, right? Like, if I am in you're not.

00:26:59:22 - 00:27:21:02
Chantal Heide
It frustrates me if I have goals and you don't. That frustrates me. If I'm patient and you're not, that frustrates me. So the entire list really is important. But when people want to come to me and say body count matters, the ones that I select on here I go. Can somebody with a lower zero body count be dishonest, lazy and irresponsible?

00:27:21:02 - 00:27:39:21
Chantal Heide
And they say, yes. And I go, well then body count doesn't matter because it doesn't tell you who the person is. But all of these are so important. And I think that's the point that I really want to drive home to women is never settle. If anybody says your standards are too high, don't believe them for a second.

00:27:39:22 - 00:27:51:00
Chantal Heide
This is one of those people that we talk about when we say misery loves company. They want to see you settle because they want to see you complain about what's missing in the person.

00:27:51:01 - 00:28:08:09
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, it's again, the speed is going to blind you to not picking up that these traits matter. And I you know, obviously if you had a top five of your list, fine. But I love that you're like, no, you really need all of them if you're really looking for it. And I guess everyone can have their own list.

00:28:08:09 - 00:28:27:00
Lisa Sonni
But I'm telling you this list to me, I feel like nothing's missing from it. You want somebody who is going to give you a good future. If you're also giving a good future and you're you know, I hate this expression, but, like bringing something to the table, everybody should be bringing something to the table. In fact, maybe I'll ask you that question.

00:28:27:00 - 00:28:47:03
Lisa Sonni
You know, like the the body count thing is something that modern dating seems to ask a lot. And I keep hearing, if you care about body count, like men say this to women, if you care about body count, you've obviously slept with a million people. That's so not true, because I think body count doesn't matter at all. And I don't have a high body count.

00:28:47:03 - 00:29:08:06
Lisa Sonni
I think that it doesn't matter because I have a brain, because that's what's logical. I completely agree, it doesn't matter. I've never asked someone. I've dated that question, and any man that has ever asked me that question is certainly not a man I stayed in a relationship with, but also the what do you bring to the table? I would just immediately get up from the table and walk away from a man who asked me that, wouldn't you?

00:29:08:07 - 00:29:09:17
Lisa Sonni
I know you're married, but.

00:29:09:18 - 00:29:27:09
Chantal Heide
Right. Well, my answer would be everything. What do I bring to the table? Everything I asked for because my number one relationship rules. It's not fair to ask for anything you're not willing to do first. And that I would probably watch him look at me with the downtown and look on his face, because that was such a smart answer, he wouldn't know what to say next.

00:29:27:13 - 00:29:44:01
Lisa Sonni
You're absolutely right. I remember watching a TikTok once of a woman saying, men keep saying, you know, like I'm asking for too much. How am I asking for too much? If I'm willing to give what I'm asking for, I'm asking for reciprocity. Am I giving too much? I've never heard a man say that. Right. Oh, she's too nice.

00:29:44:01 - 00:30:06:00
Lisa Sonni
Too good to me. Does too much for me. Know you want her to do all of those things? Will you have to reciprocate? Reciprocation to me is so important. I am absolutely done. I'm so happy that I have selected, vetted a partner that has all of these traits that doesn't expect me to give things that he's not willing to give.

00:30:06:05 - 00:30:14:20
Lisa Sonni
Thank God, tired of these these men. Now you call them males and guys and I love that. Can you tell me why you say males? Because I love it.

00:30:14:22 - 00:30:41:06
Chantal Heide
Well, because language is important and women right now are, are facing a very negative language against them. Words like compromise, which is to cede, which is to win, lose. Who's expected to compromise? Women are expected to compromise promiscuity, which is a word designed to shame what is actually consensual sexual history. But who's the victim of promiscuity of that word?

00:30:41:08 - 00:31:04:00
Chantal Heide
Women tend to be the victims of that particular word. So this brainwashing that I talked about earlier is an assault on our senses. By using language, we have to shame women for having sex. We have to tell women to give themselves up and to expect less and do more. And so I'm looking at all this language that's being used against women.

00:31:04:00 - 00:31:21:09
Chantal Heide
And I'm saying, let me be the person that teaches women to use language. So when they come to us and they go, well, the key that can open any lock and I go, really? And I hold the key up and I go, is that you? Is that you? You're this size in your pants and you're so low value.

00:31:21:09 - 00:31:38:15
Chantal Heide
I can replace you with $2.50 at the hardware store and your garbage without a woman. When I find that key in the drawer in the kitchen that doesn't open anything. And by the way, I have an identifier if you're a man or a guy yet. So I'm just going to call you a male in the meantime.

00:31:38:17 - 00:31:58:09
Lisa Sonni
I love that. I love the way you have this attitude towards the men that come into your lives and your comment sections. It is obviously very entertaining, but that aside, you are showing people like, this is what I stand for and you obviously back up what you talk about in your books and on your on your channel. So it's amazing.

00:31:58:09 - 00:32:19:16
Lisa Sonni
Now a lot of women that are dating, right. We've my on my audience, they have been in abusive relationships. And so when they're dating again they're scared of course that they're going to meet another abuser. So we've kind of covered that. You know it's slow down is the is the primary advice here when if ever do you disclose that you have previously been in an abusive relationship?

00:32:19:17 - 00:32:36:20
Lisa Sonni
The reason I ask is because I have heard often that if you tell a man that you have been in an abusive relationship and you maybe describe some of the things that you have once tolerated or what you've been through, he almost sees that as like a okay, so what can I do to her? What can I get away with?

00:32:37:00 - 00:33:04:11
Chantal Heide
An abusive person most definitely will see that as an invitation to your boundaries. Well, she put up with name calling before, so when we have a fight I can probably call her names. So my question back, right? And I always say life begins when you ask the right question. So when somebody says once the right time to tell somebody you were in an abusive relationship, my first question is, what would be the reason for telling them that?

00:33:04:14 - 00:33:29:07
Chantal Heide
Because they're not your therapist. So why? You know, this is not the person you're going to work through it with. You should be working through it yourself. You should be elevating your self-esteem, taking responsibility for why you pick that person, why you stayed for so long, both of which are a symptom of low self-esteem. So, you know, do you still need to work on your self-esteem before getting into your next relationship?

00:33:29:08 - 00:34:04:03
Chantal Heide
Then do that and enter your next relationship. A more healed and solid and confident person, instead of looking for relationship in a weakened state and then disclosing that you were abused in order to explain your weakened state and your triggers and reactivity. So why go into your next relationship with this idea that you need to disclose all of your past experiences when you can just fix yourself, take responsibility for your thoughts, emotions, and behaviors.

00:34:04:03 - 00:34:23:01
Chantal Heide
Show up. A functional partner who thinks before they say something, thinks before they act. And that way you don't have to explain that you're such a reactive and dysfunctional person because of your past experiences. In other words, you're not using your past experiences to make your present partner suffer.

00:34:23:04 - 00:34:41:14
Lisa Sonni
It's such a different concept, you know, because a lot of people feel like I need to be honest about my past. I need to, and I'm not. I don't think that what you're saying is lie, but it's sort of like, what function does this serve if you're, in theory, not that person anymore. Because I know I've changed, and I think some of the language that you use can be so sharp.

00:34:41:14 - 00:35:00:05
Lisa Sonni
Right. And I actually love that about you. But I know that it might sound to some people like you're saying you picked them. It's your fault. We I have a belief that primarily the abuser picks the woman, right? If we're talking about male perpetrators, he does pick you. However, in many ways you pick him back and you're picking based on a lie.

00:35:00:05 - 00:35:24:12
Lisa Sonni
But if you had vetted, then you wouldn't have. And if you had the strongest self-respect and the strongest self-esteem, and you know your values well, and you know what you stand for, you know what you want and you vet, you wouldn't stay. So I say that with with love towards survivors. I'm a survivor, I get it. And I know that there's a lot of shame around that feeling of you picked him, but we stayed.

00:35:24:12 - 00:35:45:16
Lisa Sonni
And I encourage women to look at this from a place of curiosity, not judgment. You don't have to be mad at yourself. You just have to stop behaving that way. Stop choosing that. Stop and learn. And it's not easy to just go stop. You have to perhaps be in therapy and read books and really do some hard work to get yourself out of that mindset.

00:35:45:16 - 00:36:02:12
Lisa Sonni
But I know for me, I only disclosed because I talk about this online, so there was kind of no way for me not to. But I remember when it was sort of like, do I want to tell people again, the only reason I do is because I speak so publicly about what happened to me, but otherwise I don't I don't see any reason for that.

00:36:02:12 - 00:36:09:20
Lisa Sonni
And I probably still to this day, haven't told him every little thing that happened to me. Because why? There's just no need for it.

00:36:10:00 - 00:36:34:02
Chantal Heide
There's no reason. Because that was a part of my life. It was a part of my experience, was a part of my journey. But it doesn't define who I am today. And so I'm not somebody who would choose that today. I'm not somebody who would tolerate that today. And I understand that me being in that abusive relationship was the result of me being abused by my mom.

00:36:34:02 - 00:36:59:20
Chantal Heide
And so I put an end to the pattern. I put an end to the pattern of choosing it, of allowing it, of being in it, and of being the kind of person who would ever have this in my life. Like my community is the most loving, wonderful group of people that would never lay a hand on me in negativity, would never yell at me, and violence.

00:36:59:21 - 00:37:17:15
Chantal Heide
So it's behind me. It's not a part of my makeup of who I am today, and I want to be grounded in the present with the person that I love. And I want to move forward, and I want to make plans forward, and I just want to stand confidently by their side. And I'm sure that's what they want from me.

00:37:17:16 - 00:37:39:03
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, that makes so much sense. When we're planning a future with someone as we're sort of betting and you're thinking about a future, what does that look like, what behaviors are. And I guess it maybe goes back to the traits a bit. But what are in a dating scenario, what is that 90 days look like to you in a in a healthy dynamic where people are following your methodology?

00:37:39:09 - 00:38:00:12
Chantal Heide
So think about your friends, the kind of friends that you get together with. And you have lunch and you have talks and it's just it's just an easy like, oh, hey, like I got some time in my schedule to have time. Yes. Okay, let's go do this. So that kind of casual relationship is how you should do it.

00:38:00:12 - 00:38:15:23
Chantal Heide
Because some people will say, you know, it's no kissing, no sex, no SQL versus no excuses. And they say, oh, I don't know how to date more than one person at a time. And I say, do you have more than one friend? And they go, yes. I said, have you ever seen more than one friend in a week?

00:38:16:01 - 00:38:37:08
Chantal Heide
You had a walk with this one. You had a lunch with this one. You went to go see a movie with that one and they go, yes. And I said, that's how you do it. You hang out as friends, and if you can't hang out as friends, why would you pursue a romantic relationship? Because there's no foundation of friendship, which should be the foundation of a healthy, long term relationship.

00:38:37:11 - 00:39:00:06
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. It's again so obvious when you just put it in those words, right? I remember when I first split from my abusive relationship and I was dating a friend once said to me, you know, you can date and only date one person and not be exclusive, meaning you don't have to make someone that you're dating a boyfriend, you just are dating and you happen to not be dating someone else.

00:39:00:06 - 00:39:22:08
Lisa Sonni
Meaning she's not saying you're exclusive, you're just dating. But I personally don't want to date multiple people at one time is just not for me. No judgment to anyone who does that. It was just not my thing. But to me it was like, oh my God, I just realized I'm thinking like a high school girl. And I was fully in my 30s thinking, you know, when you go on a bunch of dates with somebody like, that's your boyfriend?

00:39:22:08 - 00:39:46:00
Lisa Sonni
I hadn't seen your content yet, by the way. And that's why even when I did, I was like, God, this woman says such different things, like, you're so unique. And then you realize, yeah, you can say unique, but actually just logical. It's really that's all this is, is just using logic. When you're dating, you can date more than one person or not whatever, but doesn't make one person you're dating your exclusive partner because you're still vetting.

00:39:46:00 - 00:39:56:23
Lisa Sonni
And I think things change for women emotionally when you start to even say like, this is my man, this is my boyfriend. It's certainly like there's all these expectations that maybe don't need to be there.

00:39:57:01 - 00:40:22:17
Chantal Heide
Yeah. And again, that's the trick of patriarchy is to convince you that you belong to the males that want you. And what I'm doing is I'm teaching women to say, sure, of course, of course you want me, right? Of course want me? Like, listen, we will turn, Lisa, you and I will walk down the street and we're turning down males that we didn't even know we're hitting on us.

00:40:22:18 - 00:40:36:20
Chantal Heide
Okay, so that's how how much we're turning people away. But the trick of patriarchy is to get us to think that we need to be wanted by them instead of us asking ourselves, do I want this person?

00:40:36:23 - 00:40:53:02
Lisa Sonni
Yes, I've said that. You know, the amount of women that go on dates because I speak to women all the time, even like post getting out of an abusive relationship, and they're telling me that they're dating and they're like, you know, I'm so nervous for the date and I'm getting ready, and I this, that, that. Do you like this person you're so worried about?

00:40:53:02 - 00:41:14:11
Lisa Sonni
If he likes you, do you like him? And I know again, for me, I didn't think like that when I was dating. Didn't even I don't it seems crazy at this point to even say, but I know so many women who don't even consider. Do you like him? You're here doing your little peacock display. That's that's reversed. That's not how this is supposed to work.

00:41:14:11 - 00:41:28:18
Lisa Sonni
But a lot of these modern men I know like what women say about them. They want, like princess treatment, right? They want women to perform for them. That's the even the. What do you bring to the table to me? Like, piss off. I bring nothing for a man like you. I bring nothing for a man who asks me that question.

00:41:28:18 - 00:41:37:03
Lisa Sonni
I like your answer better, actually. But go away. I don't know, man who asks me that question is allowed to be in my presence. It's disgusting to me.

00:41:37:09 - 00:41:59:10
Chantal Heide
Yeah, well, I think that, you know, there's a lot of upheaval that's happening because us women are undoing the brainwashing that our body belongs to a male, which is why our father gives us away to the next male. Our father owned us. And then now the husband owns us. So we are saying, no, I'm not owned by anybody.

00:41:59:10 - 00:42:19:16
Chantal Heide
I own myself, I own my goals. I own my bank account, I own my home, I own my car. And so I'm not going to own caretaking of you. I'm not going to own looking after your minutia. I'm not going to own cooking and cleaning for you. I already own my own existence. I'm not going to own yours as well.

00:42:19:16 - 00:42:42:20
Chantal Heide
And so these males who were brought up in a culture that still told them that you're going to go out and work and somebody's going to look after you when they meet a woman who says, I'm not going to look after you, you need to look after yourself. They go, what do you bring to the table? Because I was told you were going to look after me, and my provision was to go out and work, and that's what I brought to the table.

00:42:42:21 - 00:43:08:04
Chantal Heide
So what's supposed to be happening here? And so I'm turning women into the next legion of relationship leaders, like we always should have been. And and, you know, as we were until patriarchy came in and basically burned down our libraries and brainwashed us into thinking that we were dumber and we were weaker, which we are not, by the way.

00:43:08:07 - 00:43:31:14
Chantal Heide
So I'm here being counterculture, which is actually just teaching women to be natural and saying, stand in your power and pick the man who appreciates you and can stand by your side, you the Queen, conquering your kingdom, him the King conquering his own kingdom, both of you walking side by side instead of him trying to step on you to make himself feel better.

00:43:31:14 - 00:43:34:14
Chantal Heide
Because maybe you are smarter, more successful.

00:43:34:14 - 00:44:00:07
Lisa Sonni
I love that people think that the patriarchy is the natural order and like, wake up people. Absolutely not. The patriarchy is relatively new when you look at the length of time humans have existed, and I think that such things have changed so much. I get the whole men provide, except that I've made many videos on the topic of I don't think men are providers, leaders, or protectors, but that is why they provide.

00:44:00:07 - 00:44:20:06
Lisa Sonni
And then they get from women. They get sex, they get labor, they get domestic chores, they get emotional caretaking, all of those things. And now that women earn money outside the home, like what? What do we need you for? We have to want you. You're teaching women how to vet what they want and how to get what they want.

00:44:20:07 - 00:44:34:00
Lisa Sonni
And again, men can use your advice. That's the part that I love about this. This is so gender neutral. Normally I'm not very gender neutral, but in this case I love it because it's like do the same thing. You should also be vetting women and you should also be going for these same traits.

00:44:34:03 - 00:45:06:23
Chantal Heide
Yes. Yeah 100%. So and listen, men like actual men love it when we take charge, when we're in charge of the selection and we choose them, and when we are in charge of the tone of the household, they literally do look at us and they say, how is this going to go? So when we are in charge of our thoughts, our emotions, our behaviors, and we model what a healthy relationship is, it's what they were showing up for in the first place was to develop that healthy relationship.

00:45:06:23 - 00:45:12:07
Chantal Heide
So when we can bring that part of the equation, they understand how to bring that part as well.

00:45:12:09 - 00:45:29:10
Lisa Sonni
And I love that, you know, and again, that's the kind of men that we want to be partnered with is good, generous, long term thinkers. Right. That's something you say all the time. Tell us a little bit about the generous part, because I know a lot of people think that that has to do with money, but it's beyond that.

00:45:29:12 - 00:45:58:04
Chantal Heide
Yeah. So a generous person is somebody who looks at you and says, how can I make things better for you? So it can be something as small as, like pulling out a chair, paying for your date outings. And it can be something as large as, let me provide you with a vehicle, let me provide you with housing. Let me provide you with all of these services that I do, all of these little things that I look after so that your mind is more free.

00:45:58:06 - 00:46:16:16
Chantal Heide
A generous, long term thinker is somebody who looks at what it is they plan to do with their life, and also looks at how you're going to fit with that and says, let me not be a scorekeeper or a tit for tat. Let me be somebody who is inclusive in the goodness that I want to create for myself.

00:46:16:21 - 00:46:36:23
Lisa Sonni
I love that you have covered such amazing traits that we need to be looking for in men, and I really want women who are listening to understand that this list is amazing. Obviously your books, all of them, but again, No More Assholes is such a phenomenal thing for women that want to start dating again and just kind of, how do I not meet an awful person?

00:46:36:23 - 00:47:15:08
Lisa Sonni
I don't think we can really control whether or not we meet the awful person, but we can definitely control whether or not we get into a long term relationship with them. I think, you know, this conversation is so important because healing after abuse is not really just about leaving. It's about relearning what to trust and frankly, learning how to trust yourself, knowing your values, knowing who you are, learning what self-respect really looks like, what the actions of a woman who feels self-respect are, and not getting pulled in to some relationship with some guy that has not actually given you the evidence of love and depth and a future right.

00:47:15:09 - 00:47:28:16
Lisa Sonni
You need to go beyond the attraction and the false chemistry that sort of starts at the at these beginnings of of the relationships. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. Where can people find you?

00:47:28:20 - 00:47:55:14
Chantal Heide
I'm so easy to find. I'm Canada's dating coach everywhere, so go to any social media and type Canada's dating coach and you'll find me. If you want to find my podcast, you go Canada's Dating Coach podcast, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and I love I do live streams Monday to Friday. I've actually been doing them seven days a week, because I've really been enjoying the amount of people that are showing up and learning and asking questions.

00:47:55:15 - 00:48:14:08
Chantal Heide
I really want to invite people to grab my freebies in the link in my bio, a free ebook which is fake loving you not apply how to get rid of posers, losers, scammers and predators which every woman needs to read. And I give that away for free because I don't think any woman needs to have to have money in order to understand how to protect herself.

00:48:14:08 - 00:48:23:00
Lisa Sonni
I love that, and I will link all of that in the description so people can find you easily and have access to that freebie as well. Thank you so much. It's always such a great conversation.

00:48:23:01 - 00:48:25:05
Chantal Heide
Thank you. Lisa, I appreciate you.

00:48:25:07 - 00:48:34:22
Lisa Sonni
If this episode gave you clarity, share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember, you're stronger than before.

00:48:35:00 - 00:48:38:02
Music
Stronger than before.