I Survived a Con Artist. Here's How Abuse Works | S4E7

In this episode, Dr. Nadine Macaluso — trauma bond expert and survivor of narcissistic abuse — reveals the sophisticated con tactics narcissists use to manipulate, trap, and control their partners. Drawing from her personal journey as the real-life ex-wife of the Wolf of Wall Street and her clinical expertise, she explains the stages of abuse, including love bombing, mirroring, gaslighting, and the painful switch from charm to control.

Dr. Nadine explores the biological addiction of trauma bonds, the specific traits abusers target in victims, and why it’s so difficult to recognize and leave these relationships. She also addresses shame, cognitive dissonance, and the path to healing through community support and self-compassion.
This conversation offers powerful validation, clarity, and hope for anyone recovering from toxic relationships.

Transcript

00:00:00:13 - 00:00:08:18
Speaker 1


00:00:08:20 - 00:00:17:19
Lisa Sonni
This is Real Talk With Lisa Sonni: Relationships Uncensored, the podcast they don't want you listening to.

00:00:17:21 - 00:00:37:15
Lisa Sonni
If you ever look back and you think, how did I not see this? Right? Not one red flag, not to the whole thing. How did you not see what this person was doing to you? And the answer is typically not that you just missed it. I think that it's designed to be missed. Abusers can be con artists. Abusers don't just lie, right.

00:00:37:15 - 00:00:59:19
Lisa Sonni
They build this whole life and it feels so real while they're lying. It's not confusion. It's a setup completely. And so by the time you notice that something's changing, something's shifting. You're in love. You might be trauma bonded. It's too late. It feels too late. And that's the part that I really want to talk about today. This con that has been run on you.

00:00:59:19 - 00:01:19:08
Lisa Sonni
So my guest today is Doctor Nadine Macaluso. She's a therapist, a trauma bond expert, and the author of Run Like Hell, which is a phenomenal book that I really want people to run to the store to go get. So, Nadine, can you just describe yourself a little bit? Talk about your background and who you are? Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me on here.

00:01:19:08 - 00:01:44:18
Lisa Sonni
And so, yes, I'm a licensed therapist and I'm a PhD in somatic psychology. But many, many moons ago, I was just a young girl hoping to fall in love. And I did fall in love, or at least I thought I did. But actually, I entered into the quintessential trauma bond with my ex-husband, The Wolf of Wall Street. And it was not the fairy tale I thought it was going to be.

00:01:44:18 - 00:02:06:19
Lisa Sonni
In fact, it ended up being a living hell, and it was just absolutely horrible on so many different levels. I got to gorgeous kids out of it, so that's wonderful. But while I was in it throughout my whole 20s, it was very terrorizing and very traumatizing. And so I went back to school, didn't know this was going to be my specialty.

00:02:06:20 - 00:02:28:03
Lisa Sonni
Should have been obvious. He wrote a book and made a movie while I was in school about our Greek tragedy of a life, and now I help women everywhere, like you do recognize, escape, and heal from intimate partner violence. Yeah, I love that you've turned it into something. You know, I think it's amazing. So many people are like, oh, I should write a book.

00:02:28:04 - 00:02:55:03
Lisa Sonni
my story could make a movie. And you're like, mine did. This was a huge blockbuster. And I know not all the details were totally accurate. It wasn't told from your perspective, certainly, but it was wild enough that it made a blockbuster hit. It was. And a lot of it, you know, the movie shows his shenanigans. You know, his drug addiction, his sexual boundarilessness there's just grandiosity, his larger than life persona.

00:02:55:03 - 00:03:18:23
Lisa Sonni
And that really was the way he lived. And that is what I fell in love with for a while. it makes so much sense, you know? And I think in hindsight, you probably see the con and that's kind of how I want to walk through this episode. You know, I think when people can see the structure of how this happened, helpful to a unpack what you've been through and also feel like you're doing something to kind of prevent what may happen in the future.

00:03:18:23 - 00:03:37:19
Lisa Sonni
I always tell women who are interested in dating because hello, not all, not all want to date again, but, you know, slow down how you can kind of slow down and see things. So when we kind of take a step back and we look at this, this setup, I think that most women don't really realize how early it starts.

00:03:37:20 - 00:04:05:07
Lisa Sonni
You know, like he's watching how you respond and learning what matters to you. And he figures out kind of how to become that. And it feels like chemistry. But what do you think it is like? What are they picking up on early on that we're not seeing? I think it's actually paradoxical. I think the first of all, they do fall for very strong, bright, confident women who have a lot of capacity.

00:04:05:10 - 00:04:29:16
Lisa Sonni
Because when you think about it, this pathological predator is very dark. And they're not telling you that, but they know that. And so they need someone that's going to present to the world. They need a good beard. And if you're a high functioning woman with a lot of capacity, a lot of tolerance. I was also very young. You become a good trophy partner, right?

00:04:29:17 - 00:04:58:11
Lisa Sonni
And they're able to present this image to the world because you're fitting into that. Then on the other side also, they might look for a vulnerability that you have. Maybe you've just gotten divorced. Maybe you've lost a parent. Maybe you've just moved to a new city, and there's a vulnerability in your life that's making you like we all do when we are in vulnerabilities. Not feel as strong as you usually feel.

00:04:58:11 - 00:05:22:08
Lisa Sonni
And so I think it's paradoxical that they look for both things. Yeah, they really do. It's it's interesting. I know a lot of people who haven't been through it, I would think are saying that victims are weak and they're stupid for not getting it, but it's like what's going on in the beginning and how much they mirror you and learn about you and really study you and give you all the things.

00:05:22:08 - 00:05:51:15
Lisa Sonni
And they're looking for certain traits in you which, you know, studies show that we have agreeableness and loyalty and conscientiousness and empathy. These are great qualities. We don't want to not have them, but we need to know that those also can make us vulnerable. Yeah, yeah. And you know, when you're in a healthy relationship, those qualities of loyalty and tolerance and compliance and collaboration are beautiful,

00:05:51:19 - 00:06:14:06
Lisa Sonni
right? But in the hands of a con artist, they're going to get weaponized and used against you to the highest degree. You're absolutely right. Now, do you think that these guys are running cons like they enter the relationship and they know, like, okay, I'm going to con her. I know how to get her. Or are they like repeating patterns that work?

00:06:14:06 - 00:06:42:23
Lisa Sonni
How conscious is this? you know, I think they know who they are. They know who they are. They don't want us to see all of them because we wouldn't stay. So if I can talk about my own personal experience, I think it was very intentional because he paid somebody 15,000 or made them $15,000 in the stock market to get me to go on a date with him in this friend.

00:06:42:23 - 00:07:00:11
Lisa Sonni
So I had no idea that this was a setup because it was like a mutual acquaintance. It wasn't a best friend. So she kept calling me to go to dinner with her, and I was like, okay, why? And then she said, oh, this guy Jordan's going to come. And I was like, isn't he married? She said, what do you care?

00:07:00:17 - 00:07:24:02
Lisa Sonni
I said, I don't care, just think it's very strange, you know, 22 you're like, why is the married man coming to meet me for dinner with a friend? So he had orchestrated that whole thing that I had no idea about. And that's so Machiavellian. And that's just so telling that was part of the con. the. Get go. Get this girl Away from everybody else and start to seduce her.

00:07:24:02 - 00:07:46:00
Lisa Sonni
And I had no idea. Wow. And you find out later. Of course. That's always the hindsight piece, right? Hindsight is 2020. If only we had it at the beginning. But why else would you say to somebody $2,000 worth of flowers, you want to win them over. You want to just wow them to the point that the con artist becomes irresistible?

00:07:46:05 - 00:08:14:00
Lisa Sonni
Yes. No, it's not like that. Every person you know, not everybody's as grandiose as the Wolf of Wall Street. I understand that, but it doesn't even have to be gifts. It could be constant text, constant attention. Wanting to FaceTime all the time. yeah. The way that they build that connection is unbelievable. Like the information gathering that's happening in the beginning of these relationships. I always feel like, you know, I don't know, you're wearing like a University of California sweatshirt and it's like, oh, yeah, I grew up in California.

00:08:14:00 - 00:08:38:11
Lisa Sonni
He probably didn't, you know, I mean, the things that they will say to build connection and chemistry or like, you know, you took a vacation in Hawaii and he's like, I've always wanted to go there. No he didn't. He can just say anything. We don't feel the need for so much proof in the beginning. I know I trusted my ex right off the bat, and when I realize how I look back at sort of how that happened, what made me trust him, he told me he was honest.

00:08:38:11 - 00:08:58:23
Lisa Sonni
So I trusted him. In hindsight, like, on what planet does that make sense? But I didn't really have any other evidence. But at the time it felt like I knew I could trust him. Meanwhile, I absolutely should never have trusted him. right. And you know, they say things like you're saying they mirror you. Of course, you know. to show that you have similar interests.

00:08:58:23 - 00:09:20:19
Lisa Sonni
But also, you know, I'll give you an example of something. They say things that make you think you can trust them. Well, first of all, trust has to be earned. And we have blind trust. Right? So now we know trust has to be earned. But if we are a person that is very trustworthy, we project that positive quality onto them, especially if you've never met anybody like this.

00:09:20:19 - 00:09:40:02
Lisa Sonni
But as we see in The Wolf of Wall Street, you know, he's a severe addict. And this sticks out. I mean, 30 years later, I'll never forget when I first met him, he told me he was at a family gathering for Thanksgiving and how his ex-wife’s sister was rolling around on the floor drunk, and he couldn't believe how disgusting it was.

00:09:40:06 - 00:10:05:12
Lisa Sonni
Okay, so this guy who we see in the movie is rolling around on the floor all the time, right? But he puts that little seed into my head, implying I would never be like that, right? Yeah. So when I think back in retrospect and I think anybody that says to you, you know, to your point, you can trust me,

00:10:05:14 - 00:10:25:06
Lisa Sonni
I don't go around saying that to people, to you. Absolutely never. And actually, in the book The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker, I know there's this part early on, I want to say it's chapter one where he's describing a story, and in that story the victim is saying the perpetrator or the person who later perpetrated her. Said, trust me.

00:10:25:09 - 00:10:51:22
Lisa Sonni
He like, tapped his watch and he went, trust me. And it's like, that is a moment where actually something went off in her when she looked back and she was like, who says that? I don't like people who say, trust me. Like, where's the proof? I don't have to trust you. You know, relax, build the trust. So it is so interesting that he showed this, like disgust for her behavior that he engaged in mine would slam his dad all the time for cheating on his mom.

00:10:51:23 - 00:11:08:18
Lisa Sonni
Like that was something early on, he was like, my dad cheats on my mom and I find it disgusting. My dad's a bad person. I can't believe he would do that. This guy's a serial cheater. Just like his dad, in fact. Like it's crazy. But you. You think it's so real? Yeah. There's all these

00:11:08:18 - 00:11:35:17
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
vulnerability dumps, right? You're the only one that I know that I'm telling this to. And, you know, a lot of instances, this wasn't my experience. But, you know, we're going to build a life together. We're going to get a house together. When we move in that house, I'm going to build you a shed so you can paint, right. And so the imagination just starts building the story of what life is going to look like with this person.

00:11:35:17 - 00:11:50:20
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
And so of course, the person gets really excited by it. And then you combine that with all the dopeamine and the oxytocin and the great sex. why would you just think, oh, this person's just lying to seduce me know. People don't. Like that.

00:11:50:20 - 00:12:10:01
Lisa Sonni
No. We I always feel like these are like the monsters in the closet that we talk about is if they're these very rare circumstances, you know, they're not everywhere. It's the monsters. Oh, and it's not real. They're everywhere. And they're not in their closets. They're in our beds. You know, these are people who are relatively strategic. A con is somewhat knowing.

00:12:10:02 - 00:12:32:16
Lisa Sonni
I realize they're not all masterminds, you know? And of course, some are not so specific. But there is a real con in the love bombing. And this is the hook, what you're describing, the mirroring, the future faking and this fast emotional closeness. And they say trust me. And they make you feel like chosen and seen and special different all these things.

00:12:32:16 - 00:12:51:12
Lisa Sonni
And then people tell you once they turn bad, you know, you should have known how how is that even possible? Because they don't they don't actually build trust over time. They create the feeling of trust fast. They can mimic it really fast. Many people say that they trusted their abusers. It sounds like you and I had the exact. Same.

00:12:51:14 - 00:13:16:10
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Right away. And if you think about it, you know we're all built for attachment, love and connection. And so we know that attachment more than food is what allows a baby to develop. Right. So we are biologically programs for attachment. We want to connect with people. We want a lot. We want to share our lives. And so they weaponize that very basic innate need because they know that we have that

00:13:16:10 - 00:13:38:06
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
And it's you can't survive without it. So, you know, they're literally weaponizing what it means to be human, right? Which is to love and connect. And so it's just so devastating when you finally realize, and I didn't even realize any of this. You know, once I left, even years after I left, even when I was in school, nobody taught me about this.

00:13:38:07 - 00:13:50:11
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
I really didn't start to realize this until I started to write my book in my So it took me years. Of school. One domestic violence class adjunct.

00:13:50:12 - 00:13:51:01
Lisa Sonni
Wow.

00:13:51:03 - 00:13:53:15
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
So everything in my book. Was around. Research,

00:13:53:16 - 00:14:11:15
Lisa Sonni
it's unbelievable. I think after the fact, when you sort of unpack it, it is shocking and I something that our brains do right as we look back and we think, how could I not have known? Because you're using all the information you have now to look back and then it makes you feel stupid. But like, I just don't think that people can know

00:14:11:20 - 00:14:23:12
Lisa Sonni
what. No. Then what? They know now. It's so you can't hold yourself accountable for stuff you didn't know and you couldn't have known when it was happening. It felt like love. They're really good at mimicking that, Right.

00:14:23:14 - 00:14:39:05
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
And, you know, so many women do blame themselves. Well, the perpetrator blames them. Society blames them. Right. And so this is wonderful. Why what happened in these conversations? To actually know the facts of what to look for.

00:14:39:05 - 00:15:03:23
Lisa Sonni
when you're in it, it is so hard to question you. You already have the trust, love, dependency. You're getting everything. It's like you've been handed all of your dreams on a silver platter by this wonderful man, and it feels good, so you're not going to question What happens next? Of course, is this switch. You know, things all of a sudden stop matching and maybe, you know, I don't know.

00:15:03:23 - 00:15:13:19
Lisa Sonni
He pulls back or starts to become inconsistent or contradicting who you thought he was. Why don't people notice it at that point in the con?

00:15:13:21 - 00:15:39:00
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Yeah. So, you know, this can happen very quickly where the mask falls, where the persona, you know, I like to call them Romeo, but they've been portrayed to seduce you in or love-con you in starts to slip. And usually it's because you've got engaged, they've moved you in. You know, I got engaged within six months and married six months later.

00:15:39:01 - 00:16:11:20
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Right? They've moved you in. you've become financially dependent on them. And then what happens is that they can betray you. Right? And then they'll gaslight you saying. Of course they didn't cheat, but they start to behave totally differently. And your brain, you know, they're cruel. They start to be controlling. My ex got very possessive and jealous, isolated me, moved me out to Long Island, away from everybody in this big house, which again, theoretically looks great.

00:16:11:22 - 00:16:37:21
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
But I was 23 years old and I didn't want to be in a big house in the suburbs. Right. And so the man starts to fall and you start to see this person that you don't really reconcile unrecognized, and you're trying to reconcile the brain. And that's where the cognitive dissonance comes in, which is the mental confusion you hear, you know, from trying to hold two personas of Dirty John and Romeo

00:16:37:23 - 00:16:50:15
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
and so cognitive dissonance keeps you paralyzed because is he good as he bad? Am I crazy? Is he crazy? This relationship toxic or healthy? And now you just swirling. Yeah. And you’re embarrassed.

00:16:50:17 - 00:17:08:08
Lisa Sonni
Oh man. The embarrassment you know and the not telling people. And I think this coupled with the fact that you hear so often people say don't slander your partner to other people and don't spread your business around. So we don't and then you don't have anybody to sort of bounce that off of. People always say, go to a therapist.

00:17:08:08 - 00:17:26:08
Lisa Sonni
And I'm like, women don't know that it's abuse. So then they don't seek out therapy. They seek out maybe a friend and usually friends and family say things like, you know, are you sure he didn't mean it? Or I think, well-intentioned for the most part. I don't think people are trying to keep you in bad situations, but they're just sort of trying to give you another perspective.

00:17:26:08 - 00:17:44:20
Lisa Sonni
And but all of these mixed messages, it's just confusing. So even when there is a switch, you're so right with the gaslighting and the cognitive dissonance, it's they don't just switch, the light doesn't just flip on. And okay, now he's awful all the time. So now you can clearly see it. The oscillation of kindness and cruelty is there.

00:17:44:23 - 00:18:00:10
Lisa Sonni
The confusion is there. The fact that you wonder, is it me? Am I toxic? Is does he need therapy? Does he need help instead of. And especially when you have someone like what you were dealing with with huge addiction issues, it's like you're not supposed to leave somebody who's sick. You're supposed to help them.

00:18:00:12 - 00:18:23:02
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
You're supposed to help. Them and remember, okay, the mast falls and he's cruel or controlling, coercive. But you're hopeful. Hope is the hook that that Romeo is going to come back and he'll come back just enough. I give you a like. Oh, there he is. Right. That was just a moment. We're going to figure this out. And you you really believe that?

00:18:23:02 - 00:18:44:18
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
And it keeps happening time and time again. And because you don't tell anybody and you're so biochemically addicted to him, to the highs of the dopamine and oxytocin, when he does berate you or decimate you or my ex was a rage, a horlick, I would feel so broken and shattered. I couldn't tell anybody because they're just like, here you go again.

00:18:44:18 - 00:18:49:17
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
And then all he would have to do is come back and I would feel such relief.

00:18:49:18 - 00:18:50:12
Lisa Sonni
Right.

00:18:50:13 - 00:18:54:08
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
He was the only one who could soothe me after a certain point. Yeah.

00:18:54:09 - 00:19:13:00
Lisa Sonni
The dopamine, you know, like that. People don't realize that relief when they're not abusive anymore. And I mean, that obviously is temporary, but the moments where they sort of come back and, you know, for it's different for everyone. You get a gift, you get a trip, you get love, you get not being ignored. It could be anything.

00:19:13:01 - 00:19:34:18
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
That's right. It could be. It could be anything. Because a lot of them do withdraw and give the silent treatment to right. Depends on the type of person that they are. And you just get a little bit and then you're like, oh, there's the guy. But usually you just fencing the whole time, walking on eggshells and just trying to figure out like, what the hell happened to me. Right?

00:19:34:19 - 00:19:52:09
Lisa Sonni
And that's. It's. It is scary. I don't know how to answer that question. You know, like what? What happened to us? It's like, I can answer it clinically, but when you really think about you, your own life, it's like you still kind of go, how did I let this happen? But I really want to reinforce that, that concept that we didn't let this happen.

00:19:52:09 - 00:20:07:10
Lisa Sonni
You don't know you're in a con when you're in it. And I think if anything, this oscillation of abuse and cruel, like cruelty and kindness and all of the mixture of things and the cognitive dissonance, it creates almost obsession, desperation. What's your experience?

00:20:07:13 - 00:20:32:03
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
you can start to get obsessive thoughts because just like an addiction, you're craving the high. It's over me and the oxytocin. And so yeah, you're you're craving that. And we know also you get low serotonin too when you're in love which causes obsessive thoughts. So there's a whole biological cocktail that's going on that most people aren't even aware of.

00:20:32:03 - 00:20:52:08
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
And what happens to the victim. She starts to blame herself and starts to get really reflective. And it's like, if I do this, it'll change. If I do this, it'll change. I used to say that I used to think if I hang upside down by my toenails and vomit green vomit upside down, he'll change,

00:20:52:12 - 00:20:54:17
Lisa Sonni
I don't think there's anything we can do.

00:20:54:18 - 00:21:12:04
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
I think, was his addiction. I didn't cause his manipulations and betrayals, but yet we feel, especially if we're highly competent, were somewhat confident, capable people. We're like, if I change, this will change, right? And that's illusion.

00:21:12:05 - 00:21:28:23
Lisa Sonni
I think that's one of the one of the I say best, I really mean worst. But like one of the best parts of the con is that they convince you that you're the problem, and now you're managing his behavior and his moods and thinking that you're the problem. So the whole time you're focused on what you can do better and differently.

00:21:29:00 - 00:21:52:13
Lisa Sonni
Like, I know for me, I was constantly told that I wasn't supportive, that I didn't do anything. And it was so crazy to me because I was doing everything, not supportive. Like, what do you want? My arm? I'm. I'm giving money. I'm giving time, energy, love, effort. You know, I'm swallowing all of my my own ego, everything. I'm just literally living for someone else.

00:21:52:13 - 00:21:55:09
Lisa Sonni
All to be told I'm not doing enough.

00:21:55:10 - 00:22:18:00
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Yeah, but you have to lose your identity to keep the couples. I said, And that's what they want. They want how and control over us. So the purposely undermining us, blaming us, disparaging us and saltiness intimidating dominating us so that we fear them and then they have total control. And part of that control is you're the problem, right?

00:22:18:00 - 00:22:35:07
Lisa Sonni
I rarely talk to someone who hasn't been through that part where they wonder if they're the problem. I never wondered if I was a narcissist. That word wasn't even in my realm at all. But every time he would try to get me to to believe that I was the problem, I would be like, I, I don't, I don't get it.

00:22:35:07 - 00:22:49:12
Lisa Sonni
Like, I don't understand what I could have done differently. I was trying to see myself as the problem and I just couldn't. So and I know some women absolutely see themselves as the problem, but I was confused by that. Never. I didn't think I was perfect, how could I be causing this?

00:22:49:14 - 00:23:11:13
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Yeah, I didn't necessarily think I was the problem because I knew he was difficult. But I did believe, and this is my own grandiosity, right, that my behavior could change him. Same. Right. Yeah. Was that belief that young age I can do this. You know, I can take him on. I can fix him. It's me and him against the world.

00:23:11:14 - 00:23:18:20
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Meanwhile, I'm dealing with, like, a master manipulator who's a master of the universe. And I was no match for him.

00:23:18:20 - 00:23:37:17
Lisa Sonni
I know, I actually, I hate to admit that, but, yeah, it's like whenever I have referred to abusers as con artists, there are people that push that back and they feel like, no, no, mine's not smart enough. That's not possible. He's not a mastermind. He's an idiot. My ex is an idiot. I mean, yours is not, I don't think, but mine is an idiot.

00:23:37:18 - 00:24:01:03
Lisa Sonni
You don't have to be smart. What you see here is men on a scale. Some are professionals and millionaires, and some are just regular blue collar guys, you know, and everything in between. It's not. Don't people need to not focus on their intelligence as much as patterns that repeat themselves? And the fact that you and I have very different stories and yet not that different.

00:24:01:08 - 00:24:26:03
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
That's right, that's right. And if you look at it just very simply, and I say this all the time, this person, no matter their intelligence level, their socioeconomic status, their race, they will use, harm, exploit and betray you and anyone to get their needs met for money, power, pleasure and status. Yeah. And that's just it. And if you're the object they're going to use or you're the tool on the tool belt, that's who you are.

00:24:26:09 - 00:24:27:07
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Yeah, yeah.

00:24:27:08 - 00:24:47:00
Lisa Sonni
They don't see people as human, you know, the way I see specially actual narcissists, but they just don't see you as human. You're a tool. You're a resource that the lack of object relations is astounding. When you start learning about that, it's like, wow, you were just a tool. And that is difficult for some people. I know there's this kind of, did he love you?

00:24:47:00 - 00:25:08:16
Lisa Sonni
Did he not love you? Question. And some women, I think, cannot believe that he didn't love you. And maybe there's this belief of like, he loved you in his own way, but it wasn't enough for you. I had to get myself to a place where I was like, no, that was never love. He never loved me. He loved himself, and he loved how he made me see him, loved what I did for him.

00:25:08:16 - 00:25:11:13
Lisa Sonni
But he didn't love me. He didn't even know me well.

00:25:11:13 - 00:25:31:22
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
There's no respect, there's no care. There's no trust. They don't give you the space to be who you are. they're not invested in your personal growth. Those are things that define love. None of that's there. could they be obsessed with you? Could they be possessive over you? Sure. But again, that's not love.

00:25:32:01 - 00:25:50:14
Lisa Sonni
No. It can feel like I guess the possession part. obviously looking back at it, that's not love. But when you're in it, it's like he's jealous. He cares about you. He feels like you're his. There's a I don't know if there's a connection there to like the sense of belonging that people need. You feel like you belong to the relationship.

00:25:50:14 - 00:26:13:01
Lisa Sonni
You belong to someone, they love you, but he's controlling you. That's why all these tactics are so important. You know, like coercive control and the gaslighting. And you have to see how all of these things interplay together to create this masterful con that is natural or it's learned. Right? It's not like they're natural masterminds, but it's learned behavior.

00:26:13:02 - 00:26:23:17
Lisa Sonni
They know what works. That's why they do it. So you don't have to be smart. You just have to know like you do A and B is the result. So you just repeat that because it gets you control.

00:26:23:21 - 00:26:41:02
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Right. And you know, people say, well, no, I we talked about in the beginning, do they know they're doing it and why. Another reason why I think they do. They act totally different in front of certain people. Right. I've seen them turn it on and off so they can control themselves.

00:26:41:08 - 00:26:42:13
Lisa Sonni
They absolutely can.

00:26:42:15 - 00:26:53:12
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
That tells me that they know. Because if they're, subduing their behavior or changing their behavior in front of other people, that means they can control it. And that means they know what they're doing.

00:26:53:12 - 00:27:14:17
Lisa Sonni
And I see that now. I so see that now. I think when we're in it, it reinforces the idea that you're the problem because he's different around you and he's different around other people. So other people get the real him and you're getting this terrible version. You must be causing it. And I'm like, flip that. You're actually getting the real him, the mean version of him.

00:27:14:18 - 00:27:34:21
Lisa Sonni
Other people are getting the facade, especially again when they're an actual narcissist, because, boy, do they care about their image. They want to be seen as good and great and amazing and smart and all the things so that they can run the con on you. And it's actually a little ironic because we get blamed for having been lied to.

00:27:34:22 - 00:27:40:20
Lisa Sonni
Right? You're dumb doctor. Nay, you got lied to. Everybody got lied to. We're not the only ones.

00:27:40:21 - 00:27:43:02
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Everybody got lied to. Yeah. That's the truth.

00:27:43:05 - 00:27:56:20
Lisa Sonni
We're not dumb. Yeah, everybody fell for it. Because if they didn't see it. Unless you had somebody in your life that right from the get go from the jump was like, Jordan's terrible. He's a he's a con artist right from the beginning. Everyone fell for it. That's how I see it.

00:27:56:20 - 00:28:19:19
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
So in the game. That's why. It's, you know, we're so powerful. And he ran a whole entire huge company of people who were following him. And even I, you know, my mother tried to warn me on some level. One of my friends did, but I wasn't open to hearing that at all. I just was like, oh, they don't know what they're talking about.

00:28:19:22 - 00:28:33:10
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
You know? They don't see him the way I see him. But yeah, people even try. Not many, because mostly he controlled everybody that was around us. But sure, people did, but I wasn't open to hearing it.

00:28:33:11 - 00:28:55:00
Lisa Sonni
I wasn't either. And I you know, I don't I didn't have anybody from his past telling me like, hey, watch out. I only had people in his presence that were like, you know, he's such a great guy. And it's interesting because I was talking to the new, well, I guess it's the ex now, but the new supply of my ex and she had all of the knowledge, right?

00:28:55:00 - 00:29:13:15
Lisa Sonni
Like she saw my videos and knew what I thought, but had branded me a liar because of what he said. And I find it so interesting that I had no information. Technically, she had all the information and we both got conned. And I don't think I'm smarter than her or that she's smarter than me. I think, you know, if I'm dumb, she's dumb.

00:29:13:16 - 00:29:32:01
Lisa Sonni
We're all dumb, but we're not like we all fall for it. There's a million reasons why. Even if it's happening right in your face, we find ways to rationalize like that. Cognitive dissonance is not something people can go. Well, aside from that, that's a huge part of why we don't see it and why we stay stuck in paralysis.

00:29:32:04 - 00:29:56:08
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
And also, even for anybody who's listening to this, I've witnessed this a lot. We don't want me to see it. Oh. I mean, once we come to that realization, our whole world crashes. Everything we believed in, everything we thought we were in. If we bought a house with them, if we've had children with them, it's a horrible realization to come to.

00:29:56:10 - 00:30:15:01
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
And so I offer, you know, so much compassion. I see it in my community, you know, women that are like pissed that they're learning it. They don't want to accept it. They just have to hold them so gently and just say, all you have to do is breathe, listen. And when you're really ready to take it in, you take it in, right?

00:30:15:02 - 00:30:20:13
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Don't force yourself to recognize this if you're she wasn't ready.

00:30:20:15 - 00:30:44:08
Lisa Sonni
You have to be ready. You know, I, I speak to women at all different stages. You know, the ones that have, like, you know, I'm joking. Of course, but, like, have their PhDs and narcissistic abuse from YouTube University. We, you know, everything now. But that's all hindsight when you're in it, you just don't know. And sometimes you're not ready to face the really harsh, tough reality that he doesn't love you.

00:30:44:08 - 00:30:53:21
Lisa Sonni
And this is not real to him. I think it's real to us. Certainly. I don't want to discount people's feelings, of course, but it's not real. Yeah, yeah.

00:30:53:21 - 00:30:59:06
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
And it's very hard realization to come to. So if you're resisting this, that's okay.

00:30:59:08 - 00:31:20:15
Lisa Sonni
It makes sense that people do that. You want to believe that this person can change Those last bits of hope, those little threads were like holding on to so tight of are you sure he can't change? Or he really says he wants to and like all the promises that they make, but you feel like you're losing something good instead of escaping abuse or escaping a bad relationship.

00:31:20:16 - 00:31:26:05
Lisa Sonni
Like when these relationships end, whether he leaves you or you leave him, it feels like dying.

00:31:26:08 - 00:31:29:12
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Yeah. And then you have to deal with the grief. Yeah,

00:31:29:16 - 00:31:45:01
Lisa Sonni
it's one of the hardest parts, I think the grief piece. Now, let's kind of shift into what is his payoff. Like what what are these guys actually getting? Everybody says power and control. Obviously that is an absolute fact. What else are they getting from running these cons?

00:31:45:02 - 00:32:09:11
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Well, I mean, if I think about my own personal situation, as I said, he got a great beard, right? I would show off so great dinner parties for him behave relatively normal. You know, he was wasted. So it really reinforced this facade that he was the king. Right. And also sexual servitude. Right. They get sex on demand.

00:32:09:13 - 00:32:34:11
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
I mean, they get a lot of things because usually we're doing everything for them and they are getting their needs met on so many different levels. And so why would they stop? they're getting what they want sexually, emotionally, physically. If you're a good housekeeper, if you're great with the kids, all of these things that, you know, we basically become an employee.

00:32:34:12 - 00:33:01:17
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Well, that's how I felt, at least. Yeah. Me too. Just making always okay. Yeah. I mean, he was so nice. My ex, he had, like, a thing with his hair, and he had to have a certain brush, like a Goodie brush with, like, CVS. Yeah. And I mean, if he didn't have that brush, he would go nuts. Finally, for Christmas, I got him like 20 and put gold all over them, you know, because it's like he had to have what he wanted when he wanted.

00:33:01:17 - 00:33:04:13
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
And I made sure that happened.

00:33:04:17 - 00:33:07:00
Lisa Sonni
I'm sure there were consequences if you didn't.

00:33:07:00 - 00:33:11:03
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Oh, yeah. I didn't want to get the rage over a brush.

00:33:11:07 - 00:33:29:01
Lisa Sonni
Right. It's something so small, but in the moment, I know, like, I would, I would have done the same thing. I honestly like the things I've done. You know, we never want to look back to the things that we've done sometimes. But I have like a I think it was in a video that I saw this realization that I know that men benefit from relationships with women.

00:33:29:01 - 00:33:50:17
Lisa Sonni
And I think one of the biggest cons of our time, not even our time, like I'm talking centuries, is that women are the ones who benefit from marriage and even divorce. Women are not benefiting from any of these things. Women are not in any capacity, but it's sold to us. It's marketed to us. So we want the wedding, we want the marriage, and it benefits them.

00:33:50:17 - 00:34:11:08
Lisa Sonni
So when people are like, but what about in an abusive relationship? You know, like he acts like he hates me. He's so mean all the time. He's so angry all the time. He still benefits even abusers. Even any man in a bad relationship is still benefiting. That's why even just your average crappy man, not necessarily abusive, doesn't leave his wife.

00:34:11:11 - 00:34:27:16
Lisa Sonni
These men are not the ones initiating divorce because a it's work to actually do that. But it's deeper than that. People act like if he just doesn't want to do paperwork, that's not the only reason the actual relationship benefits him. He gets all of the things we just talked about. He wants all of it.

00:34:27:18 - 00:34:49:01
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Yeah, yeah. And especially if, you know, those sex addicts and they're just leading a whole separate life on the side. But then they have the wife and the kids, you know, because people say, well, then why do they get married? For the very reasons that we the facade, the servitude, physical, emotional, sexual servitude, they get a lot. Yeah.

00:34:49:02 - 00:35:07:14
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
And so you're right, they don't usually leave. And then when the women leave, which of many women who are in this 30, 35, 40 years, one woman, 47, who finally left, then they experienced post separation abuse. Yeah. So that is so mad that they got away.

00:35:07:17 - 00:35:31:00
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. All of this you know, it's it's brutal how we find ourselves organizing our entire lives around them. And then in post separation, it's hard to shut that off. Even, you know, even even when you see it. But a man like this, like his his mission is to secure access to what he wants, which is power, control, access to you, sex, all the things.

00:35:31:00 - 00:35:52:20
Lisa Sonni
And she thinks she's in love. But we see now, you know, after the fact, of course, how he benefits from all of this. I think the one piece that's still deeply disturbing, shocking to most women is but why does he want those things? Like, why do you want to control someone that's still, even if you can get to a place where you go find it was control, but why?

00:35:53:00 - 00:35:55:21
Lisa Sonni
You know, why would somebody want that? What do you say?

00:35:56:00 - 00:36:18:06
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
You know, it doesn't really matter the why? Because we could say attachment issues, personality disorder, substance abuse, compulsive process disorder. You know, there's so many reasons why they want that. But I mean, first of all, they feel entitled to it. They don't usually have a moral compass. I mean, we live in a patriarchy, but it doesn't even matter.

00:36:18:06 - 00:36:36:18
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Why? Because it's just wrong. And if you spend all your time like trying to figure out why, you know, go back to school, like you say, people have to get like degrees and narcissism from YouTube. And, you know, once you understand the basics of who this person is and I understand the need to go down the rabbit hole for sure to make sense of But,

00:36:36:18 - 00:36:56:11
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
I could say, you know, Jordan had a very regional father, right? And maybe he didn't feel loved by his mother. You know, my mom was raised by a schizophrenic and a father who was an alcoholic and used to beat her with wire hangers. She didn't then, you know, abuse people, right? Right. So now with this people are people.

00:36:56:13 - 00:37:11:13
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Sure they do. But a lot of her people get help. But these men feel entitled to just behave however they want. They feel entitled to power and control over us. And they don't have a moral compass, and often they really think they're superior.

00:37:11:19 - 00:37:30:20
Lisa Sonni
You're right. I think what's really interesting too, though, is how they get away with it. They're running this con. We're not seeing it because we're too invested, too in love to deep in it. You know, we're we can't see six inches from our own faces when we're in this type of relationship. But I think what's. I find it fascinating how they get away with it.

00:37:30:20 - 00:37:50:00
Lisa Sonni
But I really love your answer of sort of like it doesn't matter why they want this. I agree, I think studying it like well out after your healing and maybe then it becomes interesting. I found it really interesting, but I really when you're in it, it's a detriment almost to focus on how and why and all the things.

00:37:50:00 - 00:38:24:11
Lisa Sonni
But plausible deniability is something that I see so often if like everything is not quite quite say that I didn't promise. I just said that maybe, or it wasn't me or all the things that they use, like plausible deniability, the subtlety of some of the abuse, the covert of it. Like nothing really feels bad enough. And it's the way that they can get you to tolerate more and more, because there are men that, like, have multiple affairs that beat their wives, and it's not enough to leave because he's got you to tolerate worse and worse behavior the entire time.

00:38:24:15 - 00:38:32:11
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
yeah. No, it's, that's why we're sitting here talking, because it's really one of the most painful experiences of relational trauma.

00:38:32:12 - 00:38:57:16
Lisa Sonni
yeah, it absolutely is. You know, and it's just explaining it to other people is is brutal. Which again, I think in the last few years, the fact that this is talked about more, I hope not only does I do, I hope that it helps women get out and women heal who've been in it. I hope it makes the younger women the 20 somethings that you and me's from 20 years ago, to hear things like this and go, oh, okay, I know what to avoid. Now I know what not to do.

00:38:57:16 - 00:39:15:21
Lisa Sonni
Not that we're perfect at protecting ourselves, you know, you can't really there's no perfect defense. But I think knowing that men like this exist in the world and that there are people out there that will just hurt you for no reason, you didn't have to do anything to them. It's not you. Just knowing that they exist is enough.

00:39:16:00 - 00:39:38:22
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
yeah. And I find the 20 year olds a little resistant to it. And I understand that because they want to believe in the myth of romantic love that we've been sold. And so sometimes they're not ready to hear it. And I understand that, too. But trust me when I tell you, listen, it'll save you so much severe life consequences.

00:39:39:00 - 00:39:58:09
Lisa Sonni
I totally agree. You know, in fact, referencing that conversation I had with the the ex new supply, she was 27 when she met him. And she has said to me, you know, like, I don't know what to tell you. I was young, dumb and stupid. Like I just didn't I didn't know that men could be like this. And it's like, well, I mean, I learned the hard way too.

00:39:58:10 - 00:40:06:08
Lisa Sonni
So again, it's not like I told you. It's like I get it. Because to be truthful, I was 27 when I met him, so I get it. It makes sense.

00:40:06:09 - 00:40:18:17
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Experience. That was the greatest teacher. But if you can listen to this and look for the red flags and really pay attention, you know you won't move in with this person, get married, have baby with that, all that sort of stuff.

00:40:18:19 - 00:40:37:03
Lisa Sonni
yeah. It's so true. I think when you look at all of this together, like the setup, the hook, the switch, the conditioning and what he's what he's benefiting. What's his payoff when you look at this? It doesn't feel like some random like, how did this happen? You start to go, oh, I can see how all the pieces fit together.

00:40:37:03 - 00:40:58:23
Lisa Sonni
And this is something that works on intelligent, smart, strong women. So for people that might be listening and thinking like God, this is exactly what I went through. That's kind of the point, right? This is the con. You fell for it. I fell for it. We all have maybe fallen for it. And we didn't imagine what happened. You weren't crazy while you were going through it.

00:40:59:00 - 00:41:03:16
Lisa Sonni
You know, we can start to see things differently now, and that matters.

00:41:03:17 - 00:41:08:17
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
It does mean. It doesn't mean because you can start to heal and rebuild your wife.

00:41:08:18 - 00:41:35:23
Lisa Sonni
God, that's so true. Yeah. It's not just a bad relationship. It is a system that worked until you saw it. You you got conned. But it happens. And what we do now is heal and focus on ourselves. And in all fairness, like dismantle the patriarchy, you know, like, get dissenter men, focus on ourselves, love ourselves, be in community with other women, and you have an amazing community for survivors.

00:41:35:23 - 00:41:38:15
Lisa Sonni
Do you want to tell us about Sounded

00:41:38:15 - 00:42:01:00
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
a year ago, and I really didn't know what to expect because I hadn't done it before. And so it's a community of a few hundred women where we run for support groups a week, once a week I teach a lesson. Yesterday was sexual and financial coercion, which they love. And I have experts such as you come in and talk once a week and now, it's a year.

00:42:01:00 - 00:42:24:04
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
So I really see people growing and changing. But the most beautiful thing is watching the other women support each other and validate each other and have each other's back. And there's a healing that happens in community that can't really happen 1 to You're right. You know, 1 to 1 is important. And I love and I think that's, you know, therapy or coaches whoever you want to work is great.

00:42:24:04 - 00:42:41:00
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
But having sisters validate you, see you, make you think you're not crazy and support you when you get the craving to go back. You know when you're feeling just totally insecure and full of self-doubt. The validation is they are amazing.

00:42:41:00 - 00:43:00:23
Lisa Sonni
It is. There's something about being witnessed in community with other women. So people should check out your group, but also check out your book. Run Like Hell if you haven't already. It was such a great read, really well written, such a great information in there. So grab that book Doctor Nay, thank you so much for being here and it's an incredible thing to watch.

00:43:01:00 - 00:43:07:04
Lisa Sonni
You know, even women like us just turn this into something and and heal. So thank you so much for being here.

00:43:07:05 - 00:43:10:03
Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Yeah. Always enjoy our conversations, Lisa.

00:43:10:05 - 00:43:19:19
Lisa Sonni
If this episode gave you clarity. Share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember, you're stronger than before.

00:43:19:21 - 00:43:23:00
Music
Stronger than before.