Why Letting Go Feels Worse Than Staying with Chelli Pumphrey | S4E09

If you’ve ever recognized the abuse but felt completely paralyzed and unable to leave, this episode explains exactly why that happens and how to break free. Lisa Sonni speaks with Chelli Pumphrey, a trauma-informed therapist specializing in attachment and relational healing. 

Drawing from both professional expertise and her own lived experience, Chelli unpacks trauma bonds as powerful biochemical and attachment-based phenomena, the cognitive dissonance and analysis paralysis that keep survivors stuck, and how anxious attachment styles fuel the painful cycle of highs and lows.

She also explores the primal fear of leaving, the grief of letting go of the idealized future, and practical strategies for shifting attachment patterns, rebuilding self-trust, and finding safety. The conversation highlights the power of self-compassion, decentering the abuser, and the vital support of communities like the She Rises Collective. This episode offers deep validation and real hope: leaving is hard, but it almost always leads to greater peace, safety, and happiness. Healing is possible—you don’t have to do it alone.

Transcript

00:00:00:13 - 00:00:08:18
Speaker 1


00:00:08:20 - 00:00:17:12
Lisa Sonni
This is Real Talk With Lisa Sonni: Relationships Uncensored, the podcast they don't want you listening to.

00:00:17:14 - 00:00:36:16
Lisa Sonni
You finally see that this person is not for you anymore. You're right. You're not confused. You're not conflicted. You know that he's abusive. Maybe you know you want to leave. Maybe you've heard the term trauma. Maybe you've heard the term cognitive dissonance, you know. But yet this all feels worse. Knowing somehow doesn't make you want to leave. It makes you terrified.

00:00:36:16 - 00:00:55:05
Lisa Sonni
It puts you into a kind of paralysis. Even so, I want to talk about this part of leaving an abusive relationship that I swear nobody prepares you for. It's what happens after you figure it all out. But you still can't leave. So someone today that I have on the show is someone that I actually work very closely with, and I'm so excited to have this conversation.

00:00:55:07 - 00:01:16:19
Lisa Sonni
Chelli Pumphrey is a licensed therapist. She's trauma informed and deeply, deeply grounded in attachment and nervous system work and relational healing. She also co-leads our membership She Rises Collective, and I'm just so excited to have you here, and I'd love you to just share a little bit more about yourself in more detail, and tell our audience why you know so much about this topic.

00:01:17:00 - 00:01:51:02
Chelli Pumphrey
I wish I could say that I just decided one day I'm going to just go study this. I'm just interested. But the truth is, I spent much of my life dealing with narcissistic and pathological abuse, so I was somebody who experienced it before I understood it. But as you know, as a survivor yourself, that gives us this inside experience or insight into how this really feels, which I think is so important when other people are coming to seek healing for this, because people that have an experience, this have a hard time really grasping it.

00:01:51:03 - 00:02:17:13
Chelli Pumphrey
So that was kind of my background. But I've also been a therapist for over 30 years now, and I've always worked with domestic violence, intimate partner violence issues and trauma. And just kind of naturally moved in this direction. And now I do this as my primary specialty is working with survivors like ourselves. and yes, as you said, I love hosting our group together.

00:02:17:13 - 00:02:38:06
Chelli Pumphrey
She Rises, it fills me up so much to be able to work with other women who are going through this in all different stages of their relationship healing. yeah, so I want to talk about this part in particular and how, ughh it feels like it's the super glue in these relationships, right?

00:02:38:08 - 00:02:39:03
Lisa Sonni
It does,

00:02:39:07 - 00:03:06:15
Chelli Pumphrey
And you know, I think one thing I want to just start with is that there are a lot of people who talk about the different ingredients or like different aspects of a trauma bond. it's like an addiction thing. It's like you're going through withdrawal, like all this chemical stuff happening in your body. And then other people talk about it in like, well, very focused on cognitive dissonance, which is a part of it. For those of us who understand cognitive dissonance.

00:03:06:15 - 00:03:30:18
Chelli Pumphrey
And I look at it as like there are all these aspects happening and it's it can be biochemical in our bodies. It can be the cognitive dissonance where we are in this analysis paralysis of is this person good or bad? Is this a beautiful or is this just your run of the mill, you know, relationship with some conflict here and there?

00:03:30:19 - 00:03:47:00
Chelli Pumphrey
Should I stay or should I go? But I dive in on a deeper level into attachment theory and why it feels like we are like pulling a limb off to leave this relationship. Like even physically, it feels that way.

00:03:47:02 - 00:04:04:14
Lisa Sonni
it does. I used to say that it literally felt like I was cutting off my left arm. It was the worst possible feeling in the world. And as I started learning about what this was and like, oh, it's a trauma bond. And I first heard that term from my therapist, actually, I know a lot of people learned that word on TikTok, perhaps from me even.

00:04:04:14 - 00:04:26:11
Lisa Sonni
But I learned it from my therapist. And for a moment I was like, oh, that's what it is. Perfect. Now I know what it is. I'm not crazy. And yet I still wanted this person. So I know this is like a cliche thing to say, but, you know, insight alone does not create detachment. It's so true. It's like there's this moment that you start to see what's going on and you have language for it,

00:04:26:11 - 00:04:45:12
Lisa Sonni
but it doesn't mean that just because you see it now that you suddenly go, okay, now I can work through this and let this person go. Somehow the awareness almost makes the attachment feel stronger. Like the amount of people that say to me. No, no. Okay, fine. I'm trauma bonded. But I also love him where I have a viewpoint that that's not.

00:04:45:13 - 00:04:56:23
Lisa Sonni
I don't want to discount anybody's feelings and just say you don't love him, but you love the fake version of him. You love the person he was pretending to be. Is that true, authentic love? I don't personally think so.

00:04:57:03 - 00:05:21:11
Chelli Pumphrey
Right. your spot on with that. I love that you're highlighting this particular moment in these relationships where, you know, most people go through what I call the discovery phase, where, you know, and sometimes that can be like usually that starts early in the relationship, even though it may not be until 20 years later that we're like, I saw the red flags right at the beginning.

00:05:21:11 - 00:06:05:00
Chelli Pumphrey
They showed me exactly who they were, right? So but the discovery phase is like when we are starting to really question what is happening here. And most of us go on social media, we read all the books, we get our PhD and nurses or whatever, you know, diagnosis we think we're dealing with. We try to figure out why our partners acting like this, because it's so crazy making and it's it is like the more awareness we get, especially early on in this discovery process, the more we freak out because I think it's, you know, the way I see it, first of all, if we look at it through the lens of cognitive dissonance, for those

00:06:05:00 - 00:06:32:02
Chelli Pumphrey
of you that aren't aware, cognitive dissonance is a very unique trauma symptom that people that are being abused by people who are pathological with a cluster B personality disorder, like narcissism, sociopathy, or like a psychopath, we start to see their Jekyll and Hyde behavior, we become confused, and we feel this kind of constant loop of of indecision of is he good or bad?

00:06:32:05 - 00:06:53:20
Chelli Pumphrey
Are they abusive or are they kind? Is this my soulmate or is this my abuser? Should I stay or should I go? feels like analysis paralysis. We can't decide what's good or bad, what's right or wrong. And. When we are in cognitive dissonance, It's like we go down one road of all the positive things about our partner or the other road, of all the negative things about our partner.

00:06:53:20 - 00:07:16:21
Chelli Pumphrey
And when it's very heightened like if we go down too much negativity or we get freaked out, we're like, oh my God, if I think about this, then I have to leave. So then we start idealizing them again and thinking of all the positive memories. And it keeps us. Or they do something nice and like apologize or love bomb or like bring us back in and we're like, see, everything's going to be fine.

00:07:16:21 - 00:07:19:03
Chelli Pumphrey
And then the abuse happens again, right?

00:07:19:04 - 00:07:33:08
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. That relief that you get from the from the intermittent kindness, it's it's what puts you in this whirlwind because it's such an oscillation. We know the behavior is hot and cold. So it kind of stands to reason. Of course your feelings will also be hot and cold.

00:07:33:12 - 00:08:04:00
Chelli Pumphrey
Yes, exactly. And so when we're really like in that cycle, even learning information like, oh my gosh, my partner meets all the criteria for being a narcissist. And while that can be very validating in the moment when you're feeling like really like dysregulated or like confused about what just happened, you might get sucked back in on the positive side of all these memories because it's too threatening, because then you actually have to make a decision. and the decision is threatening.

00:08:04:00 - 00:08:25:16
Chelli Pumphrey
It might mean I have to file for divorce. I might lose access to my kids all the time. My kids could be in danger. I might lose my home, my financial support. I might be in danger. All of these things. So. Oh, I don't want to know that. Right. So we start to feel kind of a panic, and people can go back and forth for a long time in this process.

00:08:25:17 - 00:08:27:16
Chelli Pumphrey
Right? Yeah. You know.

00:08:27:18 - 00:08:30:10
Lisa Sonni
I've been through it. We all have been through it. And it's painful.

00:08:30:11 - 00:08:57:03
Chelli Pumphrey
Right? It is. So if we apply this lens of attachment attachment theory to this in my like I've done a ton of work. Like one of my specialties is working with attachment theory. And many of us out here, probably a lot of people that follow you are at least versed or have some knowledge of their attachment style. You know, we talk about secure, anxious, avoidant or disorganized attachment styles.

00:08:57:06 - 00:09:34:04
Chelli Pumphrey
I'm not going to go into the details of that. If you don't know your attachment style, start researching it because it's it's a big thing to understand my research, at least my review of research to back some of this up is that first of all, with attachment, there is some research that shows that people coming into a relationship with like, let's say they have a more secure attachment if they come into a relationship where there's intimate partner violence, after the relationship ends, they were more frequently come out with an anxious attachment style.

00:09:34:04 - 00:10:09:04
Chelli Pumphrey
So there's some correlation there of this type of abuse leads to more of an anxious style. It doesn't mean it's 100%. Also, if you come in with an anxious style already, that's going to be more heightened as well. So I want to kind of focus a little bit on this anxious attachment style in particular with this, because in my clinical experience as well, I will say the majority of people I work with, not all of them, but a good majority of of women I work with, have an anxious attachment style that's showing up, at least in the relationship itself.

00:10:09:05 - 00:10:34:04
Chelli Pumphrey
Right. So I'm going to really simplify those when you have an anxious attachment, your attachment system is all about survival. And survival means how close or how distant I am to my attachment figure. When we're children, this means our parent or a caregiver, and we learned if we were in a safe home attachment like our needs could be met.

00:10:34:05 - 00:10:53:18
Chelli Pumphrey
Our relationships are kind and loving and we can trust other people. And people are trustworthy, right? In an anxious environment, we have hot cold parenting, typically. And this wasn't always mean your parent was a bad parent. It just means sometimes our needs are met, sometimes not. Kind of like what happens if you're dealing with like a narcissistic partner.

00:10:53:18 - 00:11:21:22
Chelli Pumphrey
Sometimes they're over the top. Great. Sometimes they're over the top. Horrible, right? So the fear becomes centered around, am I going to be abandoned by my partner? When we start to feel that, anxiously attached people have something called activating strategies that happen. And this is a very like unconscious and even a physical process or feeling that people will feel.

00:11:22:00 - 00:11:39:22
Chelli Pumphrey
These strategies can feel like you start to feel anxious. You might start to ruminate all you can think about as your partner, like you can't do anything else. You might even feel a little nauseous. It's like you just feel like the IC in your body of like, I can't function until I know that things are okay with this partner.

00:11:39:22 - 00:12:08:17
Chelli Pumphrey
And. our brain also starts to play these little tricks on us. Where we're feeling all of this stuff in our body. The activating strategies also can play. I just call it kind of these mental games these tricks that our brain does to keep us focused on staying close to this attachment figure. We start to think things that tend to devalue ourselves and then idealize our partner.

00:12:08:17 - 00:12:32:11
Chelli Pumphrey
So the devaluation of ourselves sounds like I'm too much. It's my fault. I'm not good enough. No one will ever love me. This is the best partner I've ever had. There's no way somebody could. I could have this kind of relationship again. And it's like kind of delusional thinking sometimes it's, you know, it kind of gives us this tunnel vision of this is the relationship you cannot leave.

00:12:32:11 - 00:13:00:20
Chelli Pumphrey
And this is also cognitive dissonance kind of stuff, too. We're forgetting all of the abuse in that moment. We just need to be brought closer to this partner. So we start thinking all those things and it feels panicky. It feels like I cannot function until this person is back and we have resolved things. So yeah, if he comes back as a jerk, our system still settles.

00:13:00:20 - 00:13:24:04
Chelli Pumphrey
We're like, okay, they're close. And you know, this is my mantra that I say all the time. I think I've said it on here before, but when you have an anxious attachment style, your attachment system will crave and prioritize proximity to your partner, even if they're horribly abusive over your own safety.

00:13:24:06 - 00:13:25:12
Lisa Sonni
That's brutal.

00:13:25:14 - 00:13:46:08
Chelli Pumphrey
And right. I mean, it's it's a rational, even when you think about it. But attachment is very survival based. hard wired in and you know, when this gets really activated that's the thing like this primal part of us is like, if I lose this person, I will die. I will not survive.

00:13:46:11 - 00:14:04:23
Lisa Sonni
I know that feeling. remember being like, am I going to die? Like, can you die from heartbreak? Is that something you see in that real? I couldn't believe it. And again, the oscillation of when they're kind and cruel. I think one of the worst parts is when you're in that low, you'd think that's when you leave, right?

00:14:05:00 - 00:14:19:00
Lisa Sonni
It's bad. I know I need to leave, but actually you're addicted to getting the high back. When you're in the high, you're not going to leave because things are good and you're like, you know, things are things are so much better now, but then you're just waiting for it to drop again. And I know this really does.

00:14:19:00 - 00:14:27:18
Lisa Sonni
I mean, I create this addiction. That's why people liken it to addiction. Do you think it is an addiction or do people just compare it to an addiction? I,

00:14:27:23 - 00:14:59:04
Chelli Pumphrey
I really take this attachment based lens. I don't think it's addiction. I think it is a very like I said, primal is the word that I want to say. It's trauma based. It's here's a good way to think of it when you think of it as addiction. So you know, what a lot of us probably have learned with addiction is that, you know, if you take like, somebody who does heroin for the first time or like meth or crack, like they get this intense high the first time they do it, especially with like meth or crack.

00:14:59:04 - 00:15:23:06
Chelli Pumphrey
I have not done it. I don't know, but supposedly it's like, okay, that's it. And then they never get to that high again. And especially with long term addiction like this, you are trying to stay high to keep yourself out of withdrawal and misery, versus I want to experience the high for the high again. And this is how I see this as well.

00:15:23:11 - 00:15:51:16
Chelli Pumphrey
We are not trying to stay close to this person because this is a healthy, great relationship that makes us feel good. we want to, you know, our system says stay attached because if we leave, we're going to go into withdrawal and it's going to be miserable. Yeah. So it is addiction ish feeling to me. But I just have this extra layer of like, if we see it through this lens of attachment, it makes more sense. think I

00:15:51:18 - 00:16:09:14
Lisa Sonni
agree with you. And, you know, obviously you've got the clinical background here, but I it is like an addiction. And you do feel addicted. You feel you're going to die being away from this person. Although I think trauma bonds are kind of interesting because you can be trauma bonded and be like, but I love them and I don't want to leave and I can't imagine my life without them.

00:16:09:14 - 00:16:29:00
Lisa Sonni
You can still be trauma bonded. If you're like, I kind of hate this person and I definitely want to leave, but something just won't let me. I'm just I feel blocks from leaving. So for people listening, there isn't just one specific way to describe the feeling of a trauma bond. But in all cases, I hear you. You're you are deeply attached.

00:16:29:00 - 00:17:01:12
Lisa Sonni
But it's an unhealthy attachment and I don't see it as love. Trauma bonds mimic love in ways. And I think that that's also part of why leaving feels. I don't know if the word is safer or it just feels better. It's like the devil you know. And if you hope that he changes and if if he's giving you all of that hope and feeding into that fantasy in future, faking that it'll be better one day, you know, when he goes to therapy or when you stop acting like such a B word and he becomes a better version of himself, things will get better.

00:17:01:12 - 00:17:06:05
Lisa Sonni
So staying makes more sense than leaving. Leaving feels like dying.

00:17:06:07 - 00:17:35:01
Chelli Pumphrey
Exactly. Yeah. And then if we add the complicating factors here of if you have been abused, you've got all this trauma, we, you know, the parts of our brain that are responsible for decision making, analyzing like really this kind of higher level planning and concentration and focus that it requires to plan your escape. And if you have to go through a divorce, you have to figure out finances.

00:17:35:01 - 00:17:55:17
Chelli Pumphrey
Maybe you've been a stay at home mom for 20 years. You know, there's all these kind of more thinking types of things that require this part of your brain. And when you've had, you know, really severe or, and or chronic trauma in this way, that part is like very shut down. And it's the survival parts of your brain that very active.

00:17:55:17 - 00:18:18:19
Chelli Pumphrey
And so it's, you know, it can feel impossible to make decisions and to plan in the way that we need to plan to get out. And people are struggling with PTSD, usually, you know, varying degrees of depression, anxiety that can feel debilitating. Yeah. On top of like all the other things, like how am I going to afford to live on my own?

00:18:18:19 - 00:18:30:02
Chelli Pumphrey
How am I going to keep my kids safe? Like, is he going to destroy me in court? You know, there's so many layers that make it hard on top of just this part that we're talking about.

00:18:30:03 - 00:19:00:09
Lisa Sonni
that whole like, you know, why doesn't she just leave him? I mean, the list is long, and it's not one reason I don't think for anybody. It's truly one reason. There's just a huge amount of reasons, but not the least of which is the attachment. Again, on the outside it's like, girl, he's abusive leave. But having inside us, when your body is used to this sort of, you know, intensity and unpredictability and relief, leaving is like, you know, you're taking all these feelings away and the feeling of withdrawal.

00:19:00:10 - 00:19:21:13
Lisa Sonni
I mean, I have dozens and dozens of times over years that and I will. I relate to this, where you are crying in a way that is irrational when you think about what you're crying about again on the outside of it, but right, hyperventilating, sobbing. But I just, I don't, I can't, I don't enter and you're like mumbling words.

00:19:21:13 - 00:19:29:22
Lisa Sonni
You become, you know, a crazy person, but you're not. It is disorienting to say the least. But yeah, it's physiological. It's not just emotional. Yes.

00:19:30:02 - 00:19:59:19
Chelli Pumphrey
Yes, absolutely. And, you know, even when you describe that, I was having some of my own memories pop up in like stories of other survivors of also some of the ways that like a narcissist or, you know, one of these types will intentionally get you into that state. They will poke and poke and poke and abuse until you are so dysregulated, you are so disoriented and you're falling apart.

00:19:59:19 - 00:20:24:04
Chelli Pumphrey
And then they might sweep in and be the one that comes to calm you or soothe you. And in that moment you are so exhausted and depleted, it's like, okay, I can feel okay in this relationship again in this. Like, I just need to breathe. I can't think about anything else. But now I can be called after like sometimes hours if not days of them poking, poking, poking.

00:20:24:08 - 00:20:26:20
Chelli Pumphrey
I mean, it is talk about a mind [...]

00:20:26:21 - 00:20:47:22
Lisa Sonni
I feel like, you know, I say this a lot. He's the pain and the comfort, the knife and the Band-Aid. Right. And when somebody is two things to you and I always say, this isn't a story we're talking about. This is people's lives. This is your lived experience. You've experienced the abusive version and you've experienced the sweet, kind, funny, loving person.

00:20:47:22 - 00:21:12:05
Lisa Sonni
And it oscillates. And we all think that that good version of him is the real version, and that sometimes he's abusive. And maybe it's because trauma, you know, alcohol, drugs, his mother, his ex, a bad day at work, bad regulation, you know, anger management issues when it's just he's choosing to be abusive. I know it's a little oversimplified, but abuse is a choice to me.

00:21:12:06 - 00:21:19:13
Lisa Sonni
It comes from entitlement, but it doesn't come from Trump and all those things because, hello, we're traumatized. We're not abusive. right.

00:21:19:14 - 00:21:43:07
Chelli Pumphrey
Yeah, absolutely. We have to see it that way. But it's it's easier for us to stand out here and see it. But when you're in the middle of it, we don't see that it's so cloudy. And, you know, there's so many like psychological and emotional dynamics happening in these relationships that it's hard to see that. And even many of us have to learn that afterwards.

00:21:43:08 - 00:22:06:22
Chelli Pumphrey
Like, how much are we talking about that right now? Like, you know, we're trying to get people to understand that. Yeah, that this is a choice. This is I'm not here to like I mean, I can have compassion for people, but I'm here to center women and victims experiences instead of. Oh, well. Was really traumatized. So it was okay.

00:22:07:01 - 00:22:11:10
Chelli Pumphrey
Well, not that we really say that, but, like, give him a break. You know, I. Don't

00:22:11:10 - 00:22:31:16
Lisa Sonni
think they say it's okay. But you're right, though we do. We do say like he's traumatized. He just doesn't get it, you know? So he has a reason. We're looking for a reason that he's abusive instead of the impact. We're always, you know, fluffing around with the intent and what they meant and what they who they really are, instead of how is the abuse impacting me and what does this cost me?

00:22:31:17 - 00:22:51:10
Lisa Sonni
But that's a lot to face. Exactly. Yeah it is. So I'll ask you this. Why do you think the absence of chaos can sometimes feel worse than the presence of harm? again. Leaving him feels worse than staying. Even though when you stay, you're being abused, when you leave, you're not being abused. But that person is gone from your life now, right?

00:22:51:10 - 00:23:17:17
Chelli Pumphrey
And I think, you know, again, it kind of comes back to what we're saying. it's that cycle. It's the my body is freaking out without this person. My mind is freaking out without this person. And even though we might know what's probably better for us in here, it's overpowering this, you know, that's it. And, you know, I think sometimes like it is what we know.

00:23:17:19 - 00:23:32:20
Chelli Pumphrey
you know, there's comfort in that like, well, at least I know, this is my family. Like going out into something new can be more threatening than staying in something that is the comfort of our day to day, even though it's not comfortable at all.

00:23:32:21 - 00:23:47:09
Lisa Sonni
Right. But that fear of the unknown is something I talked to a lot of women about because, you know, you can say, okay, leave your husband, which is a huge decision. Even if you're not married, leave your partner. You've been with them for a long time. Doesn't even matter if you have kids, don't have kids. None of that matters really.

00:23:47:09 - 00:24:17:11
Lisa Sonni
The feeling is still deeply attached. So when we talk about leaving, you think, okay, I'm going to leave this person, and now all of the goodness is gone. You also think, what if I'm the problem? What if I'm pathologizingsomeone and using this word narcissist? But you know it's not true. And you know, what happens a lot is some women will say to me or even comment on my pages, you know, I showed my husband your videos and he thinks you're stupid or he thinks you're a bitter old, haggard, single cat lady.

00:24:17:11 - 00:24:41:00
Lisa Sonni
And I'm like, funny. No cats, not single, very happy, not even a misandry. I just don't like abusive men. So it says something to you that your partner thinks I'm the problem, that I'm calling out his behavior. But they convince you, like, don't listen to these stupid old internet therapists and coaches. What do they know? They just want you to be bitter and miserable like they are.

00:24:41:00 - 00:24:58:14
Lisa Sonni
So then you start thinking, oh my God, what if I'm getting caught up in gender wars? What if I'm getting caught up in misinformation and I'm the problem? So if you leave and you're the problem, you've just left for no reason, you're going to lose out on something. And also, the dating market these days is brutal from what I hear.

00:24:58:14 - 00:25:11:20
Lisa Sonni
So I get not wanting to go out there. I also hear a lot of women say, if I go out and I date, am I not just going to meet another terrible abusive man? At least I understand this one. At least I can manage. It's brutal.

00:25:12:00 - 00:25:34:08
Chelli Pumphrey
It is brutal. And this I mean, it's a good example of like another reason why it is so hard. But if we think about that idea of those activating strategies, some of what you're talking about is connected to that, I believe. I mean, if you're really in that kind of anxious attachment pattern because it's that belief of there's nobody else out there.

00:25:34:11 - 00:25:41:13
Chelli Pumphrey
I mean, come on, there are 8.5 billion people on this planet. And if you think there is nobody better than this abusive person.

00:25:41:14 - 00:25:42:05
Lisa Sonni
Yeah.

00:25:42:09 - 00:26:12:07
Chelli Pumphrey
I held myself back there, then this person, then that's crazy. Like, there are like, you've got to remember that this is your mind saying tunnel vision. I can only see him. I don't even want to think of another possibility. And then you add gaslighting. Yeah. And all the stuff they do to mess with you. Like, you know, first of all, don't go show a video of Lisa or anybody else in this space to a partner that you think is abusive because it will be turned back on you.

00:26:12:08 - 00:26:30:18
Chelli Pumphrey
They're not going to get it. They are not going to self-reflect. They will twist it into a way to make it seem like Lisa or me or anybody else is the problem, and you are the problem, not them. And that should be, you know, even if you do that and you notice that it's going to mess with your head and you're going to think, oh, it must be me.

00:26:30:18 - 00:26:33:15
Chelli Pumphrey
But no, that's what to look for. If they do that.

00:26:33:16 - 00:26:50:01
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, yeah, it's a good sign. You know, I have videos actually called Your Husband Hates Me. I've made videos on that before because it's true. I get it. You don't like that I'm calling you out. You don't like that? I say you should treat your wife better. That's a weird thing to not like about me. Yeah. Shouldn't you want to treat your wife better?

00:26:50:01 - 00:27:09:20
Lisa Sonni
But of course not. Because he wants you to think that you're the problem. But all of this deepens the attachment, deepens your desire to stay. If you're worried that it's you, you're going to work on yourself and you're going to keep trying, which ultimately is banging your head against a wall, trying to get him to be different by you really just tolerating more abuse.

00:27:09:22 - 00:27:38:22
Lisa Sonni
That's the gaslighting of it, all right? You become the problem. They're so good at avoiding accountability and flipping it on you. So then you think, I can't leave for all of these reasons? You feel stuck now? Yeah, detachment feels like loss. For some reason. It doesn't feel like freedom. So even if you can kind of start to come out of the trauma bond a bit, start to resolve some of the cognitive dissonance, and you think, okay, I know I need to leave because I can't keep doing this cycle anymore.

00:27:39:02 - 00:27:59:04
Lisa Sonni
The detachment here is you're losing him. You're losing your life. You're losing your family, the future you built. You have to accept that it wasn't real in the way that you thought it was. And I think that you get a lot of grief. You get shame, all these feelings. It doesn't feel like relief. How does that kind of connect to attachment theory?

00:27:59:10 - 00:28:26:16
Chelli Pumphrey
Well, I think it's I mean, if you think of detachment, let's think of it as abandonment. And it's I'm losing my partner, my attachment figure. I'm losing everything connected to that. And while all of that can be true, like there are enormous amounts of loss and grief that we go through when we make a decision to leave, or if our partner should discard or leave us.

00:28:26:20 - 00:28:51:12
Chelli Pumphrey
But again, like, that's it's like the ultimate fear. And if we can be aware of that being our guiding principle, if we have this attachment wound, then we can say, look, this is my I mean, this is hard. This this is a work in progress. I will it's not this easy, but it's like, oh, wow, there's my attachment system.

00:28:51:18 - 00:29:11:04
Chelli Pumphrey
It's telling me these things. It's getting me super hyper focused on keeping this partner in my life. And it's telling me I'm going to die if I move on. And it's like kind of catastrophizing that we do about the future of like, I'll never make it. I'll have to be a poor single mom. I'll never find, you know, I'm going to be that crazy cat lady.

00:29:11:04 - 00:29:37:20
Chelli Pumphrey
All the things, and we don't know what's out there. And usually, even if it might be harder in a different way, it is a hell hell of a lot better when we leave abuse. Yeah, I mean, don't even know if I can name or think of somebody who regretted leaving. Same at least anybody that is done their trauma work never says to me I regret leaving that relationship.

00:29:37:21 - 00:29:41:05
Chelli Pumphrey
The one thing that people regret is that they didn't leave sooner.

00:29:41:06 - 00:29:59:14
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, I actually just want to for a second. You have been doing this for 30 years. God only knows how many women you've worked with, right? You've never come across someone. I only been doing this for six years. But I'm also, you know, perpetually online and see in my comment sections and get emails and just tons of thousands of women I've connected with.

00:29:59:14 - 00:30:28:10
Lisa Sonni
I have never heard anyone regret it. I have only heard women say that they wish they had left sooner. I think that's huge for people to see. Yes, I think two things as well. Number one, being single is better than being abused. Women who are single and frankly childless are the happiest group in the world. So lean into knowing that you will be happier without an abusive man. But also, girl, you can swing your purse at Walmart and hit ten better men than an abusive man like be.

00:30:28:10 - 00:30:32:11
Lisa Sonni
So for real, get out of here. So good abusive men are a diamond.

00:30:32:16 - 00:30:33:07
Chelli Pumphrey
Seriously.

00:30:33:08 - 00:30:38:22
Lisa Sonni
They're worthless. Seriously? Yeah. Just get rid of it. Get rid of it. Yeah, you need to.

00:30:38:23 - 00:31:05:02
Chelli Pumphrey
But I think a whole other conversation is which we won't go into today is also, you know, this movement of of women who are working on dissenting themselves from men and just from relationships in general. And, you know, that's a practice I've been in for the last five years. And let me tell you, it is the best thing I have done for my mental health and just my heart, my life.

00:31:05:05 - 00:31:22:09
Lisa Sonni
Yes. And honestly, it's me too. And I'm in a relationship I want I even I know it's an off topic, but just hear me out. Women who are in relationships with men. It's even more important to decenter men. Don't always be thinking, what does he. What does he mean? What does he want to eat? Where does he want to go this weekend?

00:31:22:10 - 00:31:41:23
Lisa Sonni
Just. Just relax, okay? He's a grown up. He'll take care of himself. But in all aspects. Dissenter men, I love it. And it's not. Men hate when we say that. Right? But why? Why do you insist on being the center? Shouldn't everyone be the center of their own lives? This is part of the rebuilding after you break these terms.

00:31:41:23 - 00:32:07:04
Lisa Sonni
But in it. You know the fantasy that we're holding on to, the life that we thought we would have. You know, the picture for me, it was being I'm in Canada and there's an area called Muskoka that's like cottage country. And I had this vision. I don't even like cottages. It's not really my my thing. But he had this vision of sitting on a porch facing the lake, and I had this whole picture built a I don't even want that life.

00:32:07:04 - 00:32:33:18
Lisa Sonni
But also that was something that I had to grieve the loss of and shape something new and really realize, like, were we even on track for that future? Faking is brutal. It builds this fantasy of what your life could be, right? If he had just been the nice guy you met in the beginning, if he had just gone to therapy, if he just hadn't, you know, gone to therapy twice and called the therapist a B word and said he'd never see her again, though, if he had just.

00:32:33:22 - 00:32:49:20
Lisa Sonni
But all this if, if, if what's actually happening in your life, like, how do we kind of get people back into reality? Obviously resolving cognitive dissonance. But even from an attachment lens, how do you shift the attachment while you're in it? Well,

00:32:49:20 - 00:33:25:07
Chelli Pumphrey
I will say it's hard to shift it when you're in it, because it's going to keep getting re-activated with every moment of abuse or hot, cold behavior. Now you can build awareness, kind of like we build awareness of just this type of abuse narcissism, psychopathy, etc. I highly recommend working with a therapist who understands attachment. Well, yes, because to me, like, I mean, the ideal is somebody who understands this abuse and attachment because it can, you know, when you merge the two together, it can really help with this.

00:33:25:07 - 00:33:48:03
Chelli Pumphrey
But sometimes we can't find that. So you can still, there's a lot of stuff, just like you've learned a lot from Lisa or I online or through all the other people you follow are books. You can do a lot of self awareness, self-discovery to start working on that and understanding it. But, you know, to really do some healing work around attachment.

00:33:48:07 - 00:34:07:21
Chelli Pumphrey
I mean, let me say you don't have to leave to start the healing work. You can be in the relationship and start the healing work. And that might be I mean, that's a that's often the thing we need to be able to leave the relationship, but You know, it's still like this activation of it all the time, even when you're working on it and therapy.

00:34:07:21 - 00:34:27:07
Chelli Pumphrey
So being away from it, but then having other relationships, like part of it is you don't want to go live in a cave. You're attachment system will never get activated. If you're around only yourself all day, you may think you're fine, and then you go around some people and have a relationship, friends, coworkers, whatever. And there's your attachment system.

00:34:27:08 - 00:34:40:21
Chelli Pumphrey
So it is a relational thing that must be healed. And so you still have to like have run ins with people. You still have to be in connection to understand how it's working, but not with an abusive person.

00:34:40:22 - 00:35:03:04
Lisa Sonni
Getting away from them is great. You know, like I said, it's we this is the goal is to get away. I hear even like mothers who are married to someone who's abusive, you've got kids and you are like, oh, can I make it as a single mom? Aren't you already? Tell me you're not already a single mom? Because I know for me, when I left, I felt like things got easier and I thought they would be harder.

00:35:03:04 - 00:35:26:03
Lisa Sonni
And then I realized I have one less person to pick up after and deal with and no mood in the house, and I can start connecting to myself. I think that the gaslighting and manipulation and twisting that they do, it makes you not trust yourself. And there's something to be said for staying in the relationship, allowing you the ability to just focus on him right in your mind.

00:35:26:03 - 00:35:39:22
Lisa Sonni
It's like he's the problem. So I'm going to solve him, fix him, change him, make him stop being abusive. When you leave, suddenly all the focus is back on you. So if your self trust isn't really there, even that feels terrifying.

00:35:40:01 - 00:36:06:09
Chelli Pumphrey
Absolutely. And I think it's also important, like, you know, I've lived both ways where I went through my single years, single parenting years and tried dating here and there, and I wound up with several nurses again. And then I've also had the experience, like especially the last five years, of like, none fully, fully working on me and just being a parent and doing my life.

00:36:06:09 - 00:36:27:03
Chelli Pumphrey
And if I had to, you know, like that, this part I, I can't say I regret it because it taught me a lot, but I was so unhealed, like, even though I thought I was healing as a therapist and doing all this work, I did not know these blind spots that were still getting me attracted to these partners.

00:36:27:03 - 00:36:48:15
Chelli Pumphrey
Now I know, I choose a life where I don't have to again, like do all that. The mental load, the emotional load of holding all of that, especially as a mother. Like when you're doing that for your kids anyway, and then you have to do it for an adult child. No. Yeah. We don't need to do that. Yeah. And

00:36:48:15 - 00:36:54:01
Chelli Pumphrey
most men don't understand how much of that women carry, let alone and abusive, self-centered man.

00:36:54:02 - 00:37:20:01
Lisa Sonni
Right? Even worse. It's so true. You know, I mean, obviously, we advocate for leaving. Although I will always say to people, leaving is a privilege that a lot of people don't necessarily have or even feel like that. I think I think that more women can leave than do, but I also don't claim that it's easy. I always I have these three steps to breaking a trauma bond that I talk about in my course and in my programs, but I never want people to be like, you know, three easy steps.

00:37:20:01 - 00:37:40:10
Lisa Sonni
It's not easy steps. They're grueling, horrific steps, but they are steps. So for people who like a plan, you know, that can be helpful. But I always feel like there's this kind of, I don't know, like a void after you leave and we have to fill it with something. And my suggestion is always fill it with yourself. Fill it with learning

00:37:40:10 - 00:38:00:05
Lisa Sonni
all that energy you're spending into what is a trauma. What is he doing? Why is he doing it? Reading Lundy Bancroft's book, you know, and getting your PhD on YouTube University in narcissistic abuse. All of that like just stop and take a breath and shift the focus inward and start looking at why you got here.

00:38:00:05 - 00:38:26:00
Lisa Sonni
Not from a place of judging yourself just with curiosity of like, what are the attachment pieces that have made me feel like this relationship was ever good? How can I change it? So getting into therapy or coaching somebody who really understands? Ideally, yes, narcissistic abuse, but attachment theory, that's going to be incredible. Is there anything that you want to leave people with? Are there any kind of like last notes that you feel like people really need to know about this?

00:38:26:00 - 00:38:45:08
Chelli Pumphrey
I feel like you just did a nice summary of kind of the gist of it for me like this of like, you know, I want people to know. Yes, it is hard. Yes, it can feel impossible to leave when you've got all of this and then all of this out here making it feel like, you know, climbing Mount Everest.

00:38:45:08 - 00:39:15:02
Chelli Pumphrey
And again, leaving is a privilege, and it cannot work for everybody. But many of you are caught in the trap of the trauma bond, the attachment stuff, you know, the logistics, and you have no idea of what might be over here. The freedom, the relief, the safety. And I encourage you to not think that it's impossible. I. Love that there is hope.

00:39:15:02 - 00:39:32:18
Chelli Pumphrey
And Lisa and I are living examples of that. I mean, there was a time in my life where I thought, I don't know how I'm going to survive this. I really didn't, and I'm thriving now. And I've got I've got some bruises from what I've been through in my life, but, you

00:39:32:18 - 00:39:34:00
Lisa Sonni
know. Battle scars.

00:39:34:02 - 00:39:41:01
Chelli Pumphrey
I'm in a good place. I've done my work and I continue to do my work, and it's possible for others.

00:39:41:05 - 00:39:57:23
Lisa Sonni
It is. It is so possible. And I know, I mean, a lot of people need support. So I want to, you know, shamelessly plug our club. So She Rises Collective as a membership club. Chelli and I run and it's so affordable. The entry point is so affordable and you cancel at any time, but people don't cancel it.

00:39:57:23 - 00:40:25:18
Lisa Sonni
The club is just getting busier and busier. You know you can have access to us 24 seven. There's chat threads, there's videos, there's workshops, guest speakers and incredible guest speakers. George Simon, Peter Salerno, just tons of people who are in this talking with us and sharing their wealth of information to. So for people that are really looking to break free or rebuild after, you know, just have support getting through this, I encourage people to join that.

00:40:25:18 - 00:40:43:04
Lisa Sonni
But you know, this part about it feeling really difficult to leave and leaving feels like worse than staying. This is something you could work through. This is a trauma bond and you know you can know the truth and still feel pulled back, but that doesn't mean that you can't get out of it. So thank you so much for being here.

00:40:43:04 - 00:40:44:15
Lisa Sonni
I really appreciate it.

00:40:44:19 - 00:40:49:00
Chelli Pumphrey
Oh, thank you so much for having me. These are always great talks.

00:40:49:01 - 00:40:50:18
Lisa Sonni
Amazing. Where can people find you?

00:40:50:19 - 00:41:01:03
Chelli Pumphrey
Well, my website is a good place just to find it all. ChelliPumphrey.com check the spelling. But yes, sure there'll be the link here. But yeah, that's the easiest way to find me.

00:41:01:04 - 00:41:13:11
Lisa Sonni
Perfect. Awesome. Thanks so much. If this episode gave you clarity. Share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember, you're stronger than before.

00:41:13:13 - 00:41:16:16
Music
Stronger than before.