The Narcissist’s Favorite Game: Make You React, Then Blame You with Dr. Les Carter | S5E01

If you’ve ever been hurt, reacted, and then watched your reaction become the only thing that mattered, this episode names that pattern clearly. Lisa Sonni sits down with therapist Dr. Les Carter, who brings more than 40 years of experience in counseling, anger management, and emotional wellness, to unpack why narcissistic abuse feels so destabilizing. 

They break down the control tactics, double binds, “gotcha” dynamics, and DARVO-style flipping that turn your distress into the problem while the original harm disappears. 

Dr. Carter explains how narcissists operate from a false self, stay highly defensive, and often remain stuck in what he calls “trained incompetence.” Together they distinguish healthy boundaries from control, healthy interdependence from codependence, and emphasize that you are responsible for your own well-being—not for fixing someone committed to misunderstanding you. The takeaway is powerful: make room for the reality of the relationship, stay connected to supportive people, and trust your own perceptions again.

Join Lisa Sonni & Dr. Peter Salerno in Boston, MA November 13-15, 2026 here: https://lisasonni.com/unbreakable-and-irreplaceable/

Transcript

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00:00:00:00 - 00:00:08:17
Music


00:00:08:19 - 00:00:17:23
Lisa Sonni
This is Real Talk With Lisa Sonni: Relationships Uncensored, the podcast they don't want you listening to.

00:00:18:01 - 00:00:41:13
Lisa Sonni
There is something that happens in these abusive relationships with highly exploitative, manipulative or narcissistic people that makes people crazy. He hurts you. You react, and then immediately your reaction becomes the entire problem. That's the focus. A narcissist seems to not be able to focus on what they've done. It feels like they're allergic to accountability in so many ways.

00:00:41:13 - 00:01:02:21
Lisa Sonni
So even if you start reasonable or you explain anything, your reaction, no matter what your reaction is, becomes the problem. And this is something that makes so many people just crazy. And I feel like I have the most perfect guests to talk about this. So I want to introduce Doctor Les Carter. But more than anything, I actually want you to introduce yourself and just tell us a little bit about who you are.

00:01:03:03 - 00:01:07:19
Lisa Sonni
I know you have a huge channel online. And you've retired, but tell us about you.

00:01:07:23 - 00:01:33:18
Les Carter
Well, first, again, I've been with you before, Lisa, and thank you so much for allowing me to be on your broadcast here again. I was a therapist in the Dallas-Fort worth area for, about, 41 years. And so that means I, had a whole lot of one on one experience with a lot of people. I ran a lot of anger management classes and, many different seminars on emotional well-being, etc. and so, I've been down in the trenches for a long time.

00:01:33:20 - 00:01:54:02
Les Carter
And one of the things that, if you're going to be an effective communicator is you need to be learning from the people that you engage with. And so, therapy for me was just a learning process. And, because I would learn more and more as I would talk to the individuals in my office about human nature and why we do the things we do, and you know, what our motives might be.

00:01:54:02 - 00:02:11:05
Les Carter
And, you know, people teach me something that sometimes you you think you have a topic, all figured out. Someone comes along and says, well, I have a different angle here. It's like, Okay, well, let's let's pursue that. And so, like for me as a therapist has been a learning process. I absolutely love getting input from the people that I work with.

00:02:11:10 - 00:02:34:01
Les Carter
And as a result, it comes out in the way that I talk with other individuals who might have some similar issues. And as you might imagine, in my counseling office, one of the biggest problems that I would have is, people having to come to terms with their own responsibilities. So many times when people come in, they'll tell me about all sorts of difficult things in their, life right then or in their past, and I can appreciate all of that.

00:02:34:03 - 00:02:49:12
Les Carter
But ultimately, we're going to need to get to that place where we ask the question, so where do you want to go with all of this? And when you get to the plate, that question with the the narcissistic person, it's like, I want to change all of you people out there so that I don't have to struggle anymore.

00:02:49:14 - 00:03:08:08
Les Carter
So, let's get going. So they want to just take charge and tell you what you're supposed to be so that you can prop them up because they're so weak and inadequate on the inside. And, of course, this doesn't really bode well for our relationship, because one of the primary things we need to have is, a sense of accountability

00:03:08:08 - 00:03:15:02
Les Carter
and responsibility and reliability, trustworthiness and narcissists. Don't emphasize that in the least.

00:03:15:08 - 00:03:32:17
Lisa Sonni
They sure don't. It's the most crazy making part of this. You know, the way that it almost feels like they turn relationships into a game they have to win. They see themselves as so superior. So all these, you know, grandiose ideas about who they are. they see themselves as so perfect and untouchable that you have to be the problem.

00:03:32:17 - 00:03:36:19
Lisa Sonni
So they have all these tricks that they use to flip it onto you.

00:03:36:21 - 00:04:04:15
Les Carter
Lisa, you've worked with many people just like I have, and one of the things that I watch for right up front is I'm trying to assess who is this person I'm dealing with, and are we going to be able to get somewhere? One of the first things I watch for is had defensive are If a person comes in and they start making excuses immediately, or they're telling me there's a problem, but I can tell there's something more going on that they're not revealing, then one of the things that we need to do if we're going to get anywhere, is to break those defenses down.

00:04:04:17 - 00:04:23:03
Les Carter
And, on my end as a therapist, one of the messages I would want to send, is, you're in a safe place here, and you have worth. You have dignity. And I'm going to do all that I can to know you from your vantage point. So, let's see if we can proceed. Now, you may or may not say it in those words, but that's the message you want.

00:04:23:08 - 00:04:47:18
Les Carter
Narcissists? It's not in their, wheelhouse to try to even go into that space. They have such a, a lack of trust. Their defenses are way high. And, one of the things that we have talked about with respect to, the defining features of narcissism is they hide behind the veneer of a false self. Or if you want to turn it around, they're not in touch with their true self, or their real self or their authentic self.

00:04:48:00 - 00:05:08:21
Les Carter
And we go way back in their, early years, and we can find that there's been long standing, self-protective, defensive, patterns that they got into, maybe for justifiable reasons in their earlier years, but they've never really learned how to pull out of it. And as a result, they don't go to that all important place of saying, I need to take responsibility for me.

00:05:08:22 - 00:05:33:15
Les Carter
They're they're too busy defending me. And so that just leads to, presuming that if there's a problem here with me, it must be because, because you're offensive. Which is why I'm defensive. You need to knock off your offensiveness. And so they start reading that into who knows what kind of messages, and, they become poor communicators. If you're over there spending thinking, why is it always breaking down at the most, unnecessary time?

00:05:33:16 - 00:05:49:17
Lisa Sonni
And I think the piece, too, is that I feel like people will hear what you say, and it's like. So I just need to teach him. Or he just needs a therapist to teach him what accountability is and emotional maturity. What about that won't work? Why can't they get past that, no matter. What's sad

00:05:49:17 - 00:06:13:05
Les Carter
to say. But what you just said, it's like. Yeah, that makes good sense. They they need that. The, the problem is, and by the way, in healthy relationships, you do have that sense of collaboration. Anybody that I'm with, I assume that, I can learn something from them, whether it's a three year old child or a 97 year old, person, or somewhere in between the CEO or janitor, whoever it may be. can benefit from being in your presence.

00:06:13:06 - 00:06:33:01
Les Carter
Let me find out what what you bring. And I like to know, you know. Narcissists are so self-absorbed. And they're they're fixated in, in, a lot of, developmental patterns that are, just not really working well. And as a result, they don't learn the, the higher order of thinking that would be grounded in, having healthy values and empathy and all that.

00:06:33:01 - 00:06:53:06
Les Carter
It just doesn't show up. Because they're too conflicted from the inside out. they just don't know how to manage themselves with an honesty. Going back to that false self, false self is in total charge. And so they come up with all sorts of, alternate reality and, you know, here's, here's what actually it needs to be or you don't understand life the way I do.

00:06:53:06 - 00:07:11:13
Les Carter
And so they, they want to superimpose their mannerisms onto you. When in fact, they're just kidding themselves all along the way. But it's, some of them are so airtight in what they do, it's hard to pull them out of it. And so if you're dealing with that, then you have to remind yourself. It's my job to be healthy myself.

00:07:11:17 - 00:07:18:14
Les Carter
It's that other person's job, to maintain their own health in this separate and distinct from me. I can't take on two jobs.

00:07:18:17 - 00:07:38:20
Lisa Sonni
Absolutely. I also remind a lot of people that are in relationships with narcissistic, abusive people. You're not their therapist. Even to the therapists who are in relationships with these types, you are not their therapist. So you can't save them. But I get wanting to, but I feel like you, you know, you're making such a good point that you get put into this box like it's very black and white.

00:07:39:00 - 00:07:52:00
Lisa Sonni
It's all or nothing. You're controlling because you have a boundary and that's it. That's how they see it. And then you find yourself defending against being controlling and having that label, which really they just use to shut the whole conversation down. When, when

00:07:52:00 - 00:08:14:09
Les Carter
in fact, that's they're controlling stuff. You know, a lot of people get confused with with that word boundaries. They they seem to think it means, here's when you can tell somebody no. And, okay, I'm gonna put up a boundary. I'm going to tell you no. Well, I mean, that might be part of it, but, it's so much bigger than that. Having a boundary, or, a system of boundaries means I know myself. Well,

00:08:14:09 - 00:08:34:22
Les Carter
and you have a good definition of what you believe is healthy and appropriate. And your boundary means that you're committed to stay inside. You're healthy, and that's it. And so when someone comes along and says, I invite you into this unhealthy pattern with me, the, the healthy person can say, I don't want to go that path. I can give you a simple illustration.

00:08:34:22 - 00:08:58:05
Les Carter
Let's suppose that I'm talking with somebody about a procedure, and before you know what, that person is, angry and accusing and yelling at me, saying, you're always, so micromanaging, you're always telling me what to do. I can't believe that you can't stop won't do this. Instead of that. As a healthy person, I can remind myself, okay, I don't want to get sucked into some sort of non productive communication, and it's right here in front of me.

00:08:58:09 - 00:09:16:11
Les Carter
And so the healthy person says, what are my alternatives here? And, to me a good alternative would be to slow down. Listen. Hear that other person out. Make sure that we get a little bit of a backstory as to why they're feeling that way, and then, let's see if I can toss in my thoughts so that we can have an understanding of one another.

00:09:16:11 - 00:09:37:10
Les Carter
And there's a collaboration there. Narcissist. They don't slow down and do that listening part. They just barrel right through and they go into that control stuff. And then like you just said, and if you say, well, wait a minute, I have a thought. Oh, so you're just the one that's trying to control everything, So they project back onto you this inadequacy that they carry on the inside.

00:09:37:12 - 00:09:54:20
Les Carter
And so, you want to, of course, correct the situation, but by definition, narcissist has such, such terrible self-awareness and honesty with themselves that, you might as well that brick wall behind you might as well just go bang your head against that brick wall. Get. You got the same results?

00:09:55:01 - 00:10:07:18
Lisa Sonni
Pretty much. Yeah. It's crazy making that process. Now, a question that I think a lot of people have is, do they know that they're rewriting what happened? Or do they genuinely believe what they're saying?

00:10:07:20 - 00:10:27:15
Les Carter
I'm going to lean in the pessimistic direction. Some folks who said, oh, they know, they know what they're doing. Well, there are times when it's like, I know that I'm going to do something that bothers you, but ultimately they have such a and a falsely inflated view of themselves that they have to convince themselves of the lie so that they can keep living into it.

00:10:27:20 - 00:10:48:09
Les Carter
And so, at some level, they know that what they're doing may be inappropriate or wrong. But there's so invested in blaming and shaming and pointing outward. That that introspective element just, tends not to be there. So don't expect them to say, thanks for that great bit of wisdom you just tossed at me. I just look forward to hearing from you, because you're not going to say that at all.

00:10:48:11 - 00:11:07:04
Les Carter
They're going to come back and talk about how stupid you are and you're the problem. And, and in doing so, they're hoping, like, crazy that you're going to pick up on, your side of the equation and start yelling or, become inappropriate so they can, look at you and say, see, look at what you're doing right now. And again, it's called the gotcha game.

00:11:07:04 - 00:11:12:09
Les Carter
Gotcha. And, so they want to do that, left and right and to be aware of what the game is.

00:11:12:12 - 00:11:31:01
Lisa Sonni
And actually, to your point, sometimes they're actually recording, but it's all whether the recording or not meant to sort of like look, see, they wind you up, create chaos, then blame you for the chaos. Look, see how crazy you are. Look at how you're reacting. And again focused on your reaction. You can have a perfectly calm reaction. And that's still going to be the problem.

00:11:31:01 - 00:11:38:03
Les Carter
It's still going to be wrong. Yeah, yeah. And it's it's frustrating to say I guess I'll just accept that for what it is.

00:11:38:08 - 00:11:40:11
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, but nobody wants to.

00:11:40:13 - 00:12:10:17
Les Carter
You don't want to, but it's like, There it is. Whether I like it or not or whether it smells good or not, there it is. So what do I do with this? I want to throw a term at you. Lisa, it's what I refer to as trained incompetence. Okay. Now, in our lives, we have all sorts of things we need to learn how to be competent. And for example, you know, riding a bicycle or operating a computer or doing basic mathematics or, you know, how to manage your cooking or, taking care of schedule.

00:12:10:17 - 00:12:31:19
Les Carter
And I like that way there's a certain level of confidence and skill set that we need to draw from. Well, we can say the same thing in a much more, palatable way about your relational or emotional self. You need to have a lot of competence, with respect to that. And it starts at a very early age. At age three and four, when a little kid throws a temper tantrum.

00:12:31:22 - 00:12:48:07
Les Carter
You're going to have to be kind of functional with them. You know, you're going to let it be known when you do this, and then we're going to have to stop what we're doing, and we're not going to be able to go on at age, ages, let's say six through 12 or so. You add on an extra dimension and you talk about regulations and rules.

00:12:48:07 - 00:13:05:01
Les Carter
Now the rule is the US and how we handle it is here and here's how we get there. And so you have a lot of concrete thinking. But then when you get into the, adolescent years, you want to add an extra layer. And that's, you want to teach children to, tie their behaviors, to about values and standards and principles.

00:13:05:06 - 00:13:20:02
Les Carter
And so you have more of an abstract thinking that comes in. And, you know, it's not that you're not supposed to be angry, but I want you to ask, well, where does that anger fit in with your value system? Or what other values do you have to give up in order to go pursue this? And is that what you want to do?

00:13:20:07 - 00:13:40:18
Les Carter
And then, beyond that, the deeper you get into your adult years, then you, add on much more the, the element of empathy and, and then, going to, you know, a little bit further, I refer to that as, you know, how to be immersive with other individuals. Now, having said all that, I know that's a lot. But having said all that, narcissists are stuck back in level one and two,

00:13:40:20 - 00:14:01:12
Les Carter
you know, functional and rules and regulations and, they either, hate it when somebody tries to tell them what to do. Nobody tells me or, they, consider themselves the one who says, I'm going to give them rules and regulations, and they don't get much further than that. Now, some people say, well, I had my standards and my values. But really it's it comes down to me telling you what to do.

00:14:01:17 - 00:14:26:08
Les Carter
But the empathy part and the, being immersive, it's just not on the inside. They don't do that. And in order to be an effective, relator, you have to have all of those dimensions that are a part of the relationship so that you can, engage fully with the others. Whereas with narcissists, they're just trying to fit you into a, a groove, and they don't they don't know how to go into that, immersive and empathetic kind of way.

00:14:26:08 - 00:14:47:00
Les Carter
And as a result, they bring a whole lot of strain and difficulty because when you say, let's go into the Y. Inwardly they're well, they may not say it out loud, but inwardly it's like, I don't know what I'm not I don't know what to do all night on that level. I can't go there. So, it just it's a set up for their failure. But then they put it on to you, and you're the problem.

00:14:47:03 - 00:15:01:07
Les Carter
But if you can see what you're dealing with and hopefully, you're not going to, to get sucked into their, what we refer to as, you know, they want you to get caught up in reactive abuse, is what we call it. I'm going to yell at you. You yell right back at me, and then I'm going to blame you for yelling at me.

00:15:01:09 - 00:15:01:23
Les Carter
You know that guy, right?

00:15:02:05 - 00:15:17:16
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. And that's just unbelievably common, you know? I actually hate the term reactive abuse. I think it's a trauma response. Maybe the fight response. Well, it's having a reaction to being abused. What's a good reaction to being abused. Right. You can say leaving. But other than that

00:15:17:16 - 00:15:33:07
Les Carter
and I'm tracking with you loud and clear on that one, sister. Yeah. Because, because they want you to look like it. Even though, like you say, it's normal to have a reaction. But they they they're hoping, like, crazy that it gets ramped up really big, because then they can just, walk off and say one more time and the victim,

00:15:33:12 - 00:15:49:19
Les Carter
look how miserable you're making my life. We could have handled this a lot better if it weren't for you. And, that's their game. And, then it's crazy making, like you say. It's like, well, good. I hope you're feeling crazy. And so that just, lets them blame you. And as they sense you're feeling that weakness,

00:15:49:23 - 00:15:52:10
Les Carter
they just see red meat. They're going to pounce all over it.

00:15:52:14 - 00:16:15:03
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. There's a sense of, like, feeling very powerful in being able to wind you up and make you crazy and make you angry or make you cry, make you happy, give you that relief. But they are in control of that, that roller coaster. It's a brutal. So yeah, you look at something like, Davo. Right. Like he lies or cheats or something, and then she feels something

00:16:15:03 - 00:16:31:22
Lisa Sonni
she feels, I don't know, call it women's intuition or just intuition, you know. So she checks his phone. Not that I'm justifying snooping through people's phones, but if you're with someone who lies and gaslights you, and you don't know if they're lying, so you're trying to check if they're lying because you can't trust them. It's easy to say, just leave.

00:16:31:22 - 00:16:50:22
Lisa Sonni
People say that all the time, but like, you're trapped in this crazy cycle. So you check something because you feel something is wrong and now you're crazy, you're controlling, you're insecure, you're the problem. And we're not talking about the fact that what drove her to feel this is the initial lie or the initial cheating just immediately flip. At

00:16:51:00 - 00:17:12:00
Les Carter
least I can't tell you how many cases of adultery that I, had to deal with in my counseling office where the person who was the adulterer, wanted to focus on just like, well, you know, what are you doing? Checking up on me and, and putting shame on them. And, the answer is because I thought you were having an affair, and it proved to be true.

00:17:12:02 - 00:17:12:18
Les Carter
And that's the

00:17:12:18 - 00:17:13:04
Lisa Sonni
craziest

00:17:13:04 - 00:17:31:14
Les Carter
part. Yeah. And so, I don't I don't follow people if or if they are in a position where, they have something that they just don't feel right about. Check in on it. It's okay, you know, using the cell phone. And by the way, that's that's a really big indicator for extramarital affairs. You know, my, my wife, may I say, have

00:17:31:14 - 00:17:54:10
Les Carter
you seen my phone? I want to I I'll just say use mine. And, because I know there's I don't care about you saying, you know, fine by me. And when you have an open life, you don't have to run or you don't have to hide. You don't have to do all this, defense. But narcissists, as part of their control, they have to keep everything contained in time. And and truth is, it's what I needed to be today.

00:17:54:10 - 00:17:55:14
Les Carter
It's it's very expedient.

00:17:55:18 - 00:18:16:22
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, it's it's malleable. I can I can change whatever the reality is today. Now, the trap that we get into when we're in this right is somebody accuses you of being insecure, crazy. The problem controlling it creates this defensiveness. Do you see that make it so much worse in your experience when the victim gets so defensive?

00:18:17:01 - 00:18:34:17
Les Carter
Oh yeah. Yeah. I try to remind them. And you've been kind of alluding to this. It's not your job to make that other person see the light. Now, we will sit here and say, the fact is, your life would be a whole lot easier if you all were on the same wavelength. But if you're not, it's not your job to make that other person see the light.

00:18:34:19 - 00:19:04:22
Les Carter
It is your job to, to be as healthy as, you know to be. And, and so it may be that in doing so, you'll show yourself to be quite other, from that narcissistic person. But if that's what's required, then that's what you do. and the biggest problem, if we want to put it this way and I say it rather jokingly, is, you just showed up, you walked into this person's world and you weren't skilled enough or, aware enough yet to see that this person really is as troubled as he or she is.

00:19:05:00 - 00:19:24:14
Les Carter
But now that you've spent some time with that person, you realize that indeed, there are some, some difficulties they bring. And you know what that person would be living out those exact same difficulties, whether it was someone else in your position or you or whoever, because that's just who they are. It's not about you. They want to make it all about you.

00:19:24:14 - 00:19:29:18
Les Carter
But they would be doing this no matter who's in front of them. And that's so important for people to understand.

00:19:29:20 - 00:19:51:00
Lisa Sonni
I so agree, we personalize it. And I remember actually years ago, first hearing Doctor Ramani say it's not personal. And I in that stage I was like, what do you mean? It's because it's personal. It feels personal because it's you. It's your life. I completely get it. It's not personal. They abused the person before you and they will abuse the person after you.

00:19:51:06 - 00:19:56:03
Lisa Sonni
They are who they are. They will treat everyone this way because that's part of their makeup.

00:19:56:07 - 00:20:18:06
Les Carter
You know, I've had some really neat breakthroughs sometimes with people in the counseling office when they'll see that there's a pattern here. I recall talking with one man and, his father was very angry and abusive and harsh and, you know, he was scared of it. And so, as a result, this, this, fellow who came to my office, he came in and said, you know, I'm seeing some of the same tendencies within myself.

00:20:18:08 - 00:20:34:21
Les Carter
And then we started, breaking into. What do you know about your own father? Why is he so angry? And he started talking about his father. And his father had, had an even worse childhood where there was, you know, some severe abuse and all of this, and then it went back 2 or 3 generations, as far as he can remember.

00:20:34:21 - 00:20:53:18
Les Carter
But, basically, the men in my family were just mean, and so, I mentioned, well, the fact that you come along now and you engage with your father and it doesn't work in a backwards sort of way, that's kind of a compliment to you, because you're not in his system anymore, and you're you're trying to go in a different way.

00:20:53:21 - 00:21:12:20
Les Carter
And, and so there are times when you have a feeling of excitement like, yeah, I can do this different, but you can also have a feeling of sadness, which means, well, in order for me to grow, then this person can't be a very strong presence in my life. And I have to accept that is my reality. What does that mean as we move forward?

00:21:12:23 - 00:21:27:06
Les Carter
And that's that's where you kind of have to come to terms with it as opposed to, like you say, like going back and pleading your case and being defensive and, and, just playing along with the game where the narcissist, thinks I'm just proving my point. You're terrible and I'm wonderful. I'm not going to do that.

00:21:27:06 - 00:21:37:04
Les Carter
I want to operate with inside and then, let it determine, you know what? What's the cost going to be? Because there can be a cost. And what am I willing to pay? And what what do I need to walk away from?

00:21:37:09 - 00:21:59:16
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, that's a that's a big question. I think we are not as focused as we need to be on the impact. And I also think that the idea that they want to explain, like the defensiveness that we feel we want to explain, the person on the receiving end of the explanation is not concerned with that. They don't care, because some of this is just the function of taking the blame away from them.

00:21:59:20 - 00:22:13:23
Lisa Sonni
So it doesn't actually matter if it's your fault or not, that they're not seeking the truth, they're not seeking collaboration. They're there just to convince you that you're wrong. And even when you're not wrong, even when there's evidence that you're not wrong, you're still wrong. Is it because they're a narcissist? If you're

00:22:13:23 - 00:22:17:11
Les Carter
not me? Yes, I'm over here. I'm the gold standard and you're not the gold standard.

00:22:17:11 - 00:22:36:10
Lisa Sonni
So that's it. But the assumption of collaboration is, I think, actually a huge issue in these relationships, also in therapy offices, because a therapist would naturally assume the two people sitting in front of them there for couples counseling are there to collaborate. So everybody feels heard. And I get it. But you got to be looking for those things.

00:22:36:10 - 00:23:02:19
Lisa Sonni
But women make the same mistake in the relationship of thinking, if I could just explain it. I always describe this almost as like a carrot. He's the gut. The abusive person is holding this kind of carrot, dangling it in your face, and you think you're just almost there, almost to the part where he gets it, almost. You know, they always live on that cusp of maybe he's about to change, maybe he's about to understand, and they convince you that it's the words you use the day of week.

00:23:02:20 - 00:23:19:02
Lisa Sonni
You chose to bring it up. If you're dog piling them, if you're bringing up old crap, if it's the weekend, you know, if he's already in a good mood, a bad mood, you're trying to find the perfect moment, the perfect words, the perfect facial expression and attitude and tone to tell him that he's wrong. None of that matters.

00:23:19:05 - 00:23:39:00
Les Carter
You just let a whole lot there. And you mentioned Doctor Ramani, she and I talk a couple times, in interviews and, and we've spoken separately as well. And, in one of our discussions, we had the question, what is your number one indicator of, being able to identify a narcissist? and hers was, the lack of personal awareness,

00:23:39:02 - 00:23:58:19
Les Carter
and mine was the willingness to be exploitive. And, as I thought about it, it's like we were using different terminology, but we were kind of going into the same space, with their lack of self-awareness. And that means that there's only one direction they can put their thoughts and that's over toward you. So they're going to try to control you.

00:23:58:19 - 00:24:17:13
Les Carter
So with me saying, well, I think they're exploited, it's like, yeah, they have to keep, trying to turn you into something that you're not because they don't have enough self-awareness. So we were kind of saying two sides of the same coin. Yeah. And it's so important for you to objectify, you know, if you're an empathetic person, you just want to keep going in and like, okay, let's make it on thiswork

00:24:17:13 - 00:24:34:20
Les Carter
out real well. But there are times when, in your objective thinking, you have to remind yourself, this is a person who has a very low ceiling, and we may have already hit that low ceiling. And if I'm wanting more from the relationship, this is not one that's going to, get it for me. And then we go back to that question.

00:24:34:20 - 00:24:44:23
Les Carter
So now what does this mean? And it all depends on who the relationship is and all the tangential elements that go along with it. And that's that can be a very complex, unfolding of its own.

00:24:44:23 - 00:24:59:20
Lisa Sonni
it really is. I know. And then you just, I don't know, I, having been through this, like, you just feel like you're losing your mind the whole time. You know, you've lost touch with reality. I always feel like to you explain this was a trap that I found myself in. He would tell me, you know, you're not even defending yourself.

00:24:59:20 - 00:25:12:15
Lisa Sonni
So I would defend myself. And look how defensive you are. Look at you. And it's like, So talk about a double bind, right? Well, you defend yourself and it's evidence that you're wrong. And if you don't defend yourself, it's also evidence that you're wrong.

00:25:12:15 - 00:25:31:01
Les Carter
So I'm kind of like, well, if I'm going to be the designated loser in a way that I might as well go the way that makes the most sense to me. I have this really simple phrase, and that is why defend that which needs no defense. And so, if someone comes along and says, let's. Carter, you're one of the dumbest people that I've ever talked to.

00:25:31:04 - 00:25:52:05
Les Carter
You make no sense whatsoever. And let's suppose I've tried to explain to them, well, I tried this and the other is like, I don't think I want to go back into that rabbit hole again. Then if that person says, you're one of the dumbest people I've ever met, then, my thinking is, I don't know if I'd say it out loud because it might sound sarcastic, but. Well, is there anything else you'd like to share with me,

00:25:52:07 - 00:26:08:02
Les Carter
or is there anything else you need to get off your mind? And at some points, like why the things that would you need to know defense. Man, if you want to just keep your offensiveness up, which. Oh, by the way, you will. I have to ask you. Oh, do I want to be a, a willing player in that losing game

00:26:08:02 - 00:26:30:16
Les Carter
and the answer is no, thanks. Right, I have, yeah. And if you want to call me ugly names behind my back, or say crummy things about me online, my response is, please fill in my name correctly. Yeah. And again, I don't want to do sarcastic, but it's like, oh well, whatever. Yeah. And it's easier said than done, but sometimes you just need to get to that place of saying, so be it.

00:26:30:16 - 00:26:44:15
Les Carter
There you are. But you know what? Here I am, and I trust who I am. And, that's not something I'm going to let you, you know, take me away from, especially when you're trying to get me over into your side of the, the road. Playing these nasty games aren't going to work anyway.

00:26:44:17 - 00:27:04:23
Lisa Sonni
that self-trust piece is so big. Like, if, you know, I know that I'm not, insecure or that I'm not controlling or that your insecurity was caused by, you know, you're not an insecure person. You don't go around accusing every person you've dated of cheating, just the one who did right. Or. Yeah, you're not controlling. I was always called controlling because I would be like, hey, what time you coming home?

00:27:05:03 - 00:27:10:10
Lisa Sonni
God, you're so control. And I had to defend against that. And I'm like, isn't the normal question that

00:27:10:10 - 00:27:12:13
Les Carter
people... me up? And I want to know why.

00:27:12:15 - 00:27:23:18
Lisa Sonni
I just wanted to know if you wanted dinner. Like, what the hell? It was crazy. But that's because there's no perfect way to say it. There's no perfect. Like if if they are committed to making you the problem, it is what it is.

00:27:23:19 - 00:27:40:09
Les Carter
But you know what? You mentioned an ex. I guess you got somebody else. And guess what? That person is probably singing the same tune to, Like, in other words, don't make it about you. I grew up thinking a with people like me. I have a sister. And her, her philosophy of life is, why can't we just all get along?

00:27:40:12 - 00:27:56:06
Les Carter
And it's like, yeah, it's a good way to look at it, I guess, and, and yet in the end, it may not be that way. And I want people to be friendly and I want to be nice to them. And there's some folks it's like, I can use this to my advantage or, yeah, you're right, I think that's weak or I think that's insincere.

00:27:56:06 - 00:28:13:12
Les Carter
That's stupid. And they may be putting all sorts of interpretations. It's like, no, it's just let's just take it at face value. And narcissists always know it's all about me. I'm going to interpret you in a way that allows me to stay in that superior position that you mentioned a few minutes ago, and it's like you're playing by a different set of rules, aren't you?

00:28:13:17 - 00:28:23:09
Les Carter
And, the, the narcissist will say, yeah, I'm playing by the right rules. Haven't you got that memo yet? Right. So they make it their task to just pay. Did read a game

00:28:23:11 - 00:28:45:17
Lisa Sonni
like the rule to me, it's. There are no rules. The rules are. He wins and you lose. The narcissist will always be in the superior position. Even when they're wrong. Even when there's evidence. You know, even if you had a panel voting on who was wrong, which is ridiculous. But yeah, you're just wrong. Now, years in relationships like this, let's say she's been called, difficult or controlling or whatever,

00:28:45:19 - 00:29:08:03
Lisa Sonni
she starts to constantly kind of check. Is this is this true? I feel like women measure themselves against the accusations. So if he is always calling you controlling, then to not be controlling, even when you're not verbally defending yourself, you're emotionally defending yourself constantly proving that you're not controlling. So you kind of let go and you don't do anything.

00:29:08:07 - 00:29:16:18
Lisa Sonni
Like using my own example, I had stopped asking what time he was coming home, which gave him the ability to come and go as he pleases. Yeah. So just in that example. Anywhere you

00:29:16:19 - 00:29:18:12
Les Carter
go, it's not going to work out well for you.

00:29:18:16 - 00:29:31:20
Lisa Sonni
yeah. So you just you just don't. But what do you see with with survivors sort of pre editing themselves and pre checking and softening their own requests and defending themselves against this. This identity that the abuser has given them.

00:29:31:20 - 00:30:00:22
Les Carter
Well see common sense says maybe you did do something wrong. And you responded in ways that you look back like, I don't like how I become when I'm with that person. And to be honest. But yeah, I did get sucked into, a counter control kind of way and let's look at virtually every one of our emotional expressions and realize that there's a spectrum on all of it. You hear people. I mean, you say your narcissism itself is, characteristic on a it's a pattern on a spectrum.

00:30:01:01 - 00:30:18:18
Les Carter
And, for example, I don't think anybody's going to be down at the 0% level in their narcissism. But my thinking is, well, okay, we all have selfish moments or controlling moments where we give advice that we didn't need to or, you know, something, there's something there. But, healthy, self-aware people. And this goes back to what Doctor Ramani said, Well,

00:30:18:21 - 00:30:42:22
Les Carter
they'll say, well, I claim that I made it, and let's, let's do something about it, but the narcissist won't. But I'm hoping in your self-trust, when the narcissist says, well, I see A, B, and C in you, that's wrong, that you'll be able to be objective and say, okay, I'll think about it. And then, as you thought about it, and they want to keep remind you and you draw your own different conclusions. That's where you decide I need to trust myself.

00:30:43:03 - 00:31:00:20
Les Carter
And I'm hoping that you don't get so isolated with that narcissist that their voice is the only one or the loudest one in the room. I'm hoping you can have other people that you engage with in a much healthier kind of way. They can reinforce the positive, which is why it's so necessary, to not let yourself get isolated

00:31:00:20 - 00:31:18:18
Les Carter
when you've been with that narcissistic person, and not allow yourself to be known, because, we all have issues. The question is, are we, managing them in a constructive way, or are we, just, you know, kicking it down the road or are we destructive with it? How do you want to go? And so none of us are gonna be perfect, but we can be in process.

00:31:18:22 - 00:31:39:06
Lisa Sonni
I whenever I think back to like being in it myself, but even in talking to people every day and in my work as a coach, when I speak to survivors, the level of, difficulty that women have in staying with themselves and keeping that trust and knowing, you know, like, I'm I'm not a controlling person, but this person sees me that way.

00:31:39:06 - 00:31:59:02
Lisa Sonni
And rather than looking at the impact that this accusation has had on you, and frankly, this relationship has had on you, women become so much more interested in asking, you know, why does he see me as a good person? And why does he treat me this way? And proving that she's not controlling or not difficult, instead of am I being treated well in this relationship?

00:31:59:02 - 00:32:03:18
Lisa Sonni
And what is the impact? How am I starting to see myself differently? How am I losing myself in this?

00:32:03:22 - 00:32:24:18
Les Carter
Yeah, it's important to be aware of the characteristic of dependency. Now when we talk about dependency just in its, most innocent state, in the context of what we're discussing, it means that your emotions can be impacted by another person's emotions, or your thoughts or your preferences or ideas can be impacted by someone else. In other words, what, what you saying?

00:32:24:20 - 00:32:45:10
Les Carter
You know, I'm going to, play off of that. So, there's a dependent element there. And we can then take that term dependency and we can go in an unhealthy way, or we can go on to a healthy way. The unhealthy, person becomes codependent. It's like, well, whatever you say, I'm just playing off of it. and then if you tell me something wrong, I got to fix that. There's, there's judgment here I have to take into it, you know?

00:32:45:11 - 00:33:01:02
Les Carter
Why are you talking to me this way? And so they get caught up in all of this, codependent pattern that they, are way too focused. Whereas in the healthy, interdependent phase, it's like, well, I still want to engage with others. It's nice to have somebody to reinforce you and to remind you that what you say makes sense.

00:33:01:07 - 00:33:23:18
Les Carter
And so I want to be known as being someone who can do that. Until I start seeing that it's going to take on a much more unhealthy kind of path. And then at that point, I'm going to exit, so I've got a healthy dependency that's more of a healthy interdependence, but not this unhealthy codependence, because that's all about vying for control and, shame and, and, condescension and all that goes along with it.

00:33:23:18 - 00:33:43:02
Les Carter
And there's so many, problems to go there. So if you can make that distinction, then you don't fault yourself for figuring what you do. But then you, also remind yourself, unlike what the narcissist will do, it's still my responsibility to take care of my side of the equation, even if that other person just continues on in their own unhealthy patterns.

00:33:43:07 - 00:34:00:15
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, we get dragged into that. And I always feel like, you know, you competing against a narcissist. Like for what? For who's worse. You know, we we still need to be able to look at our own behavior. I do find where it gets really unfair is that, you know, how sometimes a narcissistic person will, you know, having on the air quotes, take accountability.

00:34:00:15 - 00:34:16:08
Lisa Sonni
They'll be like, fine, I treated you badly. Fine. I did a bad thing, but you also so they're still blaming you. And it's like we both need to change. We both need to do better. You go first. It always feels like we both need to do it, but you actually are the one who need or.

00:34:16:13 - 00:34:32:00
Les Carter
You know, the biggest worthy thing there. Which. But yeah, we both engaged. But but okay. Right. What I just said, here comes what I really mean. You need to start. Okay. That's what I really mean. So yeah, they, they they they're good at that, aren't they? Yeah. And really the key there is and then

00:34:32:00 - 00:34:33:14
Lisa Sonni
you become recognized. Hyper vigilant.

00:34:33:14 - 00:34:34:16
Les Carter
Not get sucked into it.

00:34:34:20 - 00:34:53:06
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. That's the problem. Like don't get sucked into it which is again going back to you. Don't take it personal. These accusations a lot of people ask me actually, and I'm going to throw the question to you, even when they accuse you of the thing being difficult, do they think that you're being difficult or are they trying to get you to react in some way?

00:34:53:06 - 00:34:56:21
Lisa Sonni
I think the answer is probably it depends. And both, you know. But what do you think?

00:34:57:00 - 00:35:14:19
Les Carter
Yeah. But, I, I think that, the first part, do they think you're being difficult? They, they're actually convinced that the answer is yes. Because, there's this false view of themselves as grandiosity, even if it's in a covert kind of a way. So actually, they think you're an idiot. And then are they hoping that you're going to, do something is wrong?

00:35:15:00 - 00:35:31:11
Les Carter
It's like, oh, yeah, again, this is a game. And so the minute you, say the wrong words or, express a bad attitude or, stuff out of there, they're going to think, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this is, this is exhibit eight right here. I pronounced this person guilty when you vote with me on that guilty verdict.

00:35:31:16 - 00:35:55:05
Les Carter
And that's how they think. And, and so there's a, a negative thought that I, try to teach people that it doesn't sound very pleasant up front. But it's simply this. And that is make room for negativity in your relationship. So, I'll just say this, I love my wife dearly. But there are times when she'll say something or do something.

00:35:55:05 - 00:36:12:11
Les Carter
It's like, I don't think that's what we agree we're going to do. And I can have an annoyance. But then, in my annoyance, I can remind myself, well, you know, it's not like I'm the bastion perfection here. And I have my idiosyncrasies. It probably can bug her from time to time. So why don't we just call it even Steven and keep moving forward?

00:36:12:12 - 00:36:27:20
Les Carter
You make room for a certain amount of negativity, and I know that can be mild. But if, if a person's going to yell or scream or be abusive, okay, I need to make room for that rather than saying I need to make that not true. Well, it is true. And so I'm going to make a lot of room for that.

00:36:28:00 - 00:36:47:10
Les Carter
And then the next question I go back to that is, is this something I need to stay with, or are there some, aspects on my side of the equation? I need to be very, very different. And, and I, I strongly lean in the direction of your own self care, the narcissist. You're going to do it. And so that means that you're in charge of your own self care.

00:36:47:11 - 00:37:06:00
Les Carter
Are you willing to take on that in a very serious kind of way, even if it means that the narcissist is going to think you're, anything but a nice person. And, I'm hoping the answer is, yeah, I'm going to stand in my own dignity and my own truth, my own, reasonableness. And it's not my job to make that person think otherwise.

00:37:06:05 - 00:37:22:02
Lisa Sonni
it's so true. And we that would we want it. And I get it, you know, having been through it, I get it. But you really can't argue your way out of this role that the relationship's survival needs you to occupy. Right? You he needs you to be wrong. You can't. That is so important for

00:37:22:02 - 00:37:40:03
Les Carter
you to remember. They're they're that desperate that they're going to keep coming after you. Because the implication is, I'll take responsibility for me. Therefore you should do the same. And they can't deal with that part. And so, they've got too much incompetence and chaos on the inside that they're caring. And so they're constantly wanting to put that burden onto your shoulders.

00:37:40:06 - 00:37:47:22
Les Carter
No, you have to you have to be the one that makes me feel good. And I'm like, you know, that's that's a that's a really big ask, one that I'm going to have to pass on.

00:37:48:01 - 00:38:09:13
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. No, thanks. Right. Yeah. Absolutely not. I know it's it's hard though. I mean, getting yourself out of this and and the ways that we examine our own behavior and really think about what we've said and take accountability for the parts that we have come up with in the relationship. Like if you yelled, even if it was in response to him, it's like, yes, I yelled and I shouldn't have yelled.

00:38:09:15 - 00:38:34:09
Lisa Sonni
It feels like poison coming out of your mouth sometimes when it's like, I'm apologizing for yelling when you just got caught cheating, like, what the hell? But I think again, step back. What is the impact that this relationship has had on you if if everything is unwinnable and you're in a double bind and we always come back to you, you're the problem. Even though you constantly feel hurt and you feel abused, you know it's time to evaluate being in it.

00:38:34:14 - 00:38:39:05
Lisa Sonni
I will never imply leaving is easy, but you got to examine the whole relationship with this.

00:38:39:08 - 00:39:03:22
Les Carter
Yeah. Yeah. And you're you're right. And, we go back to, there's certain core ingredients that are necessary for a healthy relationship. And right at the top of the list is trustworthiness and honesty and, accountability. You know, being a patient person, frankly or not, just, you know, just having a core sense of decency. You know, I can disagree with somebody.

00:39:03:22 - 00:39:25:00
Les Carter
And I'll get into whether it's politics or religion or lifestyle preferences, I can disagree with you on all sorts of things, but I can also remind myself, even if you bring a different thought pattern or a different opinion, I can still show goodness to you. And, and then, our disagreements don't have to define us entirely. And, and I maybe we can learn from one another,

00:39:25:04 - 00:39:42:11
Les Carter
and I'm, I'm open to that. And that's that's not a hard concept as far as I'm concerned. But there are some folks who just cannot go into that space. And when that's the case, and that's going to be somebody that is not going to be able to join me in my inner circle. And, the relationship is going to reflect that reality.

00:39:42:16 - 00:40:00:01
Lisa Sonni
yeah, that's such good advice. As we kind of come to an end, I want to ask you a question about the survivors here. Like what? What would you want someone listening today to really understand if they're still in that desperate trying to prove I'm not who he says I am?

00:40:00:03 - 00:40:22:05
Les Carter
My immediate reaction would be, rather than the convincing part. I mean, what did you just say? I'm not the person who says I am. Okay, why don't we listen to that now? You're trying to get that person over there to listen to, but would you please listen to yourself? Wow, that was a good message. And I don't need to have my self defined by someone else.

00:40:22:06 - 00:40:42:00
Les Carter
In other words, in your anger or in your her during your pain or, disgust. There's probably some sort of smart message that you're trying to say. And even if that other person is not listening, are you listening to yourself? And I'm hoping that as your anger is tied to your sense of self-preservation, I hope you have this self preserving cry.

00:40:42:05 - 00:40:48:15
Les Carter
You'll ask yourself. Works by self preserving cry. Take me. And, I'm hoping it takes you to good places.

00:40:48:17 - 00:40:57:08
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. Oh. Me too. I know, I think one of the hardest things is getting yourself out of a relationship like this. Because there's such a cycle and such a pattern.

00:40:57:12 - 00:41:00:16
Les Carter
It is so important to have that healthy, support system around you.

00:41:00:18 - 00:41:24:07
Lisa Sonni
Oh, yeah. Especially to be a mirror to it. You know, you're not crazy, you're not controlling, you're not difficult. Somebody that kind of help validate you and give you a different perspective more closely to your own perspective, instead of always stepping into their reality. Abusers often use this sort of like you need to take accountability. Accountability does not require you to accept another person's version of who you are and your entire character.

00:41:24:07 - 00:41:33:13
Lisa Sonni
Trust that you do know yourself. So if you're finding yourself explaining and defending it, proving it, correcting this is a very abusive relationship.

00:41:33:15 - 00:41:49:18
Les Carter
I recall one woman in particular who had, I had counseled her on her way out of a really nasty, awful relationship, to say this guy was narcissistic would just be an understatement, but she came back to see me, sometime later. And she was dating a guy, and I wound up getting to know this fellow.

00:41:49:20 - 00:42:07:22
Les Carter
And, it's kind of like. Okay, as crummy of a match to that other one was. This one's a good match. But then she would come into my office sometimes privately, and it's like, well, I don't know if I can trust it or not. Because, you know, when I say something that differs from him, what he'll do is you'll say, well, let me think about it.

00:42:08:00 - 00:42:25:12
Les Carter
And and then he thinks about it, and I don't know if he's just going to clobber me or what. And, we kind of had to joke about it's like, that's pretty sad that he does something really well, and it feels odd, but, give yourself patience. And then remind yourself not everybody has to be like this other person.

00:42:25:12 - 00:42:59:08
Les Carter
It's been so difficult. And, let's stay away from all or nothing thinking you know, all men or all women or all, workers or whatever this way, therefore it's always going to be that way, but that's real. So there's, there's fluidity there and there actually are some people out there that know how to engage. Well, I hope that you're one of them and that you allow yourself to enjoy the privilege of being in process and, in the same process with someone else who agrees with you. And, let it be, be and be a lifelong learner and link with people who are lifelong learners. So ready and let the time show you.

00:42:59:10 - 00:43:17:02
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. The pattern reveals itself. You know, the crazy making pattern will always reveal itself over time. Yeah. So thank you so much for being here. It was such an amazing conversation. We can always learn so much from you, especially now that you are retired. Any little bits that we can get from you and it's absolutely amazing. Well, thank you so much.

00:43:17:04 - 00:43:29:18
Les Carter
Okay. I'm taking a trip to Europe here in a couple of weeks. Did some fly fishing with an old buddy a couple months ago, and it’s like, retirement is kind of hard. Kind of rough, catching up on some of the reading. But other than that, we're making it. Fun

00:43:29:18 - 00:43:30:02
Lisa Sonni
of it.

00:43:30:07 - 00:43:36:11
Les Carter
Yeah. Thank you. At least it's always good to be with you. You're such a good interviewer, and I and I just so appreciate your comments and what you're doing.

00:43:36:11 - 00:43:41:07
Lisa Sonni
Well, thank you so much for saying that. Amazing. Thanks for being here and I'll have you back on next season.

00:43:41:08 - 00:43:42:18
Les Carter
Sounds good.

00:43:42:20 - 00:43:52:06
Lisa Sonni
If this episode gave you clarity. Share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember, you're stronger than before.

00:43:52:08 - 00:43:56:11
Music
Stronger than before.