Weaponized Incompetence: When Does It Cross Into Abuse? | Paige Turner | S5E02

If you’ve ever felt like the household manager while your partner acts helpless, this episode brings the nuance most conversations miss. Lisa Sonni sits down with Paige Turner, a mother of four and creator who talks about marriage, motherhood, and domestic labor, to unpack where weaponized incompetence ends and ordinary friction begins. 

They look at everyday examples—the dishwasher, the sink, snow gear, and “just give me a list”—and ask the real question: is your partner willing to learn and change, or is the work quietly landing back on you? The conversation challenges the idea that “you’re just better at it” means you should own it forever, explains how lists create a manager-employee dynamic, and names why time—not money—is the real currency of fairness at home. 

Paige and Lisa also make space for the gray area: not every conflict is abuse, but repeated shutdowns, defensiveness, and blame-shifting can signal something much more serious. Healthy partnerships can handle curiosity, accountability, and follow-through. If the inequity feels bad, that feeling is information—not a personal failing.

Join Lisa Sonni & Dr. Peter Salerno in Boston, MA November 13-15, 2026 here: https://lisasonni.com/unbreakable-and-irreplaceable/

Transcript

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00:00:00:00 - 00:00:08:17
Music


00:00:08:19 - 00:00:17:20
Lisa Sonni
This is Real Talk With Lisa Sonni: Relationships Uncensored, the podcast they don't want you listening to.

00:00:17:22 - 00:00:39:12
Lisa Sonni
I just look a lot on my channels about weaponized incompetence. And it's a really interesting conversation, and there's so much interesting debate around it now over the years, I keep hearing about mental load and weaponized incompetence and what's the difference? And couples having different standards for domestic labor. That all seems to just get thrown on women. And I think that sometimes there's a real unequal partnership,

00:00:39:12 - 00:01:02:23
Lisa Sonni
and sometimes two people genuinely have different skills, different standards. They really do love each other and they really do listen. And there's a lot of nuance to this conversation. Weaponized incompetence, in my mind, is abuse, there's no question. But when you start looking at someone who genuinely doesn't understand something, genuinely doesn't know how to do something, and you're coming to your partner, it's how they respond to you.

00:01:02:23 - 00:01:22:12
Lisa Sonni
It's a lot of it has to do with the intention behind it. And there's so many great content creators having conversations like this online, one of which is my guest today, Paige turner. And I would love to just kind of turn this over to you and have you introduce yourself because you have an amazing channel, you have such great content, and you have real mixed reviews for men and women.

00:01:22:12 - 00:01:24:04
Lisa Sonni
But tell us a little bit about you.

00:01:24:06 - 00:01:42:19
Paige
Well, thank you for having me. My name is Paige. I'm a mom of four kids. you know, when I started my channel, I was working full time. I had a newborn baby. I think she was five months old. Maybe when I started posting. And I've been married to my husband for ten years. We've been together for 20. So that's a big part of what I talk about is marriage and the mental load.

00:01:42:19 - 00:02:02:23
Paige
And, you know, a lot of what I talk about online is kind of this intersection of the lived experience of marriage and motherhood and the systemic issues that really impact it. Not for the better for, unfortunately, and how things like the lack of pay, parental leave and the lack of affordable childcare are all things that impact our experiences and our marriages more than we maybe recognize.

00:02:03:04 - 00:02:07:03
Paige
And so, yeah, so I'm a full time content creator, speaker, consultant, podcaster in the space

00:02:07:03 - 00:02:14:02
Lisa Sonni
now. That is amazing. I have totally fallen in love with your content. Plus your screen name because I love it. Paige Turner I'm a page turner. I just love it.

00:02:14:06 - 00:02:14:18
Paige
Thank you.

00:02:14:18 - 00:02:41:06
Lisa Sonni
Very creative. One thing that I see a lot like, you know, I think it's interesting to sort of bridge my world and your world with there being such interesting overlap in our conversations, but not quite the same thing, because I don't think that every man who doesn't understand all the things that his wife does is abusive. That would be astronomically crazy to say, but I think that there's this overlap that a lot of women don't necessarily see.

00:02:41:11 - 00:02:57:12
Lisa Sonni
I think I hear this like, well, you're just better at it. And if a guy says that again, it I'm not saying that that just equals he is abusive. But what I'm saying is, is he listening? You're just better at it. So I never have to do it. And I throw my hands up and it's now your problem or your standards are too high.

00:02:57:14 - 00:03:08:05
Lisa Sonni
Those things can be legitimate conversations. But I don't know. I think a lot of times women are like begging and asking for help. So much. How do you kind of experience the you're just better at it?

00:03:08:08 - 00:03:23:03
Paige
Well, sometimes she is better at it. And she's better at it because she's been doing it for a really long time. Right. So you get better by doing I, you know, it's like we tell our kids, like, practice makes perfect. I am better at it. That's not a reason I should have to do it forever at the end of the day.

00:03:23:03 - 00:03:40:06
Paige
Right. And so, you know, I look at a lot of these things as just conversation starters. Yeah, you're right, I am better at that thing. But just because I'm better at it doesn't mean I want to do it forever. Does it mean that it's fair that I'm the one who keeps taking it on? And it doesn't mean you're incapable of becoming better at doing that thing

00:03:40:06 - 00:04:04:22
Paige
right? And so the core of this conversation, and maybe the difference of where you and I live on the internet is I'm trying to talk to couples and specifically women. My following is 99.9% women. I'm speaking to these women in hopes to help them articulate their lived experiences so they can have more productive conversations with their well-intentioned partners. You know, I always tell people all of these things, hinge on the question mark of does your partner care?

00:04:04:22 - 00:04:18:18
Paige
And is they willing and able to put in the work to adapt and change within your relationship? If you don't have the answer to that part, like the willing and able part, if that is a hard no, nothing I say is really gonna help. Nothing I teach you about the mental load is going to help you fix that.

00:04:18:20 - 00:04:37:17
Paige
It might better equip you for your future, but it's not going to change the dynamic. Right. And so like, there's a lot of nuance to this conversation. But I typically come to the conversation thinking, what is the conversation we're having about this? Like, what is this conversation? Yep. I'm better at it. Okay. So then how do we move forward so you can get really good at it or I'm better at it.

00:04:37:17 - 00:04:53:19
Paige
So yes, I will continue to do this thing. Sure. I'm happy to be the person who makes kids lunches every single day. I'm good at it. You're right. Well, that means there's something else on my plate that you'll be taking on. Thank you. And you know what? I think you're better at that. Anyways, I think it's having these conversations in a well-intentioned way with our partners.

00:04:53:19 - 00:05:09:04
Paige
And I say with intention, I think oftentimes these things happen in passing. Right? Somebody is frustrated, is like, why am I always making the lunches? And husband's like, well, you're better at it. And then they keep going about whatever they're doing. And a kid asks for mom to come wipe a butt, and dad is helping another kid get his shoes on.

00:05:09:04 - 00:05:25:06
Paige
And that was the end of the conversation, and we left it right there. Right. And so I think oftentimes to like these quips that you're better at it or like, just give me a list. They often happen like in the moment when we do not have the time to give it the care and attention it needs and to have a real conversation.

00:05:25:09 - 00:05:45:10
Lisa Sonni
I so agree. So I think what's interesting, you said something so profound here. Okay. I want people to really catch this. You can't solve anything with a person who does not want solutions with the person who uses. You're just better at it as a way to shut the conversation down. So but I encourage people, even my own audience, to listen to creators like you.

00:05:45:10 - 00:06:08:13
Lisa Sonni
Abby Eckel, others that talk about weaponizing competence and mental load. Because if your advice works and I think people, generally speaking, should try it and take that advice and have these intentional conversations. But if you're trying and nothing's happening and there's no change in, you're constantly being shut down, you start to go like, how come this is really good advice to be open and honest and clear.

00:06:08:13 - 00:06:32:18
Lisa Sonni
You know, that trope of women are just totally unclear. Women never say what they mean. If you're actually being clear and you're saying it, and he's never changing and he's just making these excuses, it makes me mental. You have to know this is relatively purposeful. I think there's a point where we can assume that they either have bad intentions or that their intention doesn't matter because there's no change and you're just left doing everything.

00:06:33:00 - 00:06:47:17
Paige
Yeah, yeah. I think that last part, that nothing changes is a, it's a cycle that a lot of couples get stuck in, where I remember this with my husband, where he'd be like, yeah, I'll definitely empty the dishwasher before I go to work. And then he'd be late one day for work, and then he'd, like, not do the dishwasher, and he'll text me and be

00:06:47:17 - 00:07:01:00
Paige
like, sorry, I was running late. I didn't get to the dishwasher. Like, no big deal. It's one day. Who cares? We all have those. Like, we all have those days where like, hey, so this morning was a [censored] show. Like, I didn't take out the trash. My bad. Like, we have tolerance for all of those things. But then what happens is, right.

00:07:01:00 - 00:07:07:17
Paige
That becomes like a pattern. And it happens so often that it ends up back on the original person's plate and they're looking they're saying, like, I thought I

00:07:07:20 - 00:07:08:06
Lisa Sonni
handed

00:07:08:06 - 00:07:26:18
Paige
this to someone else. How did it become my responsibility again and again? I'm not saying that that's always like the intention. I'm not saying the person's like, I'm going to secretly keep pushing this, but like, I don't think every husband is, manipulating their partner in that way. But what often happens is resentment builds. And I also hate that.

00:07:26:18 - 00:07:40:15
Paige
What is it you want me to be a mind reader, right? I think you alluded to that. Like I can't read your mind. Just tell me what to do. What happens is a lot of women and I know I was this way myself got really frustrated. I was like, oh, of course you forgot the dishwasher. And then the second time I'm more frustrated.

00:07:40:15 - 00:08:01:17
Paige
Of course you forgot the dishwasher. And I'm like, the resentment and anger is bubbling up in me. But do I say anything? No. Like I'm just like, waiting for him to recognize that he didn't do the dishwasher and that it's become a pattern again, right. And like, I think that dynamic is also unhealthy in the sense that, like, I know I should have advocated for myself sooner and said, hey, you forgot the dishwasher.

00:08:01:19 - 00:08:18:22
Paige
Not cool. I'm not going to keep taking it back on. You have to do this like you said you would. I'm holding you to it. And I'm like, is it yucky that we have to have these conversations in our relationship? Sometimes? Absolutely. But I won't lie to you. Like, there are also things on the other side of that where I think oftentimes we can recognize that in ourselves, too.

00:08:18:22 - 00:08:35:11
Paige
Like, there's my husband, I have this tiff about the sink where I always leave it on the spray setting, and he hates the spray setting because he turns it on and he feels like it sprays him and he's like, Paige, please stop leaving it on the spray setting. I have never stopped and that's not on purpose. I'm like, I just literally in washing dishes.

00:08:35:11 - 00:08:51:05
Paige
I have it on the spray and I forget, like every single time. And when I say this to him, I'm always like, babe, I wash dishes because I work from home. He doesn't. He's not here during the day. I'm like, I'm in that sink probably six times a day when you're not here. And I forget because you're not here and I'm not worried about you using the sink.

00:08:51:05 - 00:09:06:00
Paige
So when you come home at night and you use it like it's not, I'm not doing a purpose. Like. this is why I say there's nuance, this conversation, like, there are things that are done with ill intent, and then there are things that are generally just like annoying things our partners do that are not our preference. And those are two separate things.

00:09:06:00 - 00:09:08:13
Paige
And I think we can, like, leave space for that conversation.

00:09:08:13 - 00:09:29:08
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, I have like what a perfect example because I can imagine you may use the sink. I'm just making up numbers 4 to 6 times whatever during the day. You never really know when the last time is. So you're not like, oh, now I need to click that. You're just living life doing the dishes. The intent is there and also the conversation and possibly the humor that you guys can have around that.

00:09:29:12 - 00:09:47:11
Lisa Sonni
But if you responded or if roles were reversed and he responded with like, what's your problem? Who cares? What is wrong with you? Why do you care so much? You're just better at doing the dishes. Yeah, make you a billion times crazier. I also realize the you're just better at it at to your point. Yeah, because I do it more often.

00:09:47:11 - 00:09:53:18
Lisa Sonni
So if you try to teach him how to do it, suddenly it's don't tell me what to do. But I thought I was better at it. What do you mean?

00:09:53:18 - 00:10:11:22
Paige
Yeah, I think there's, you know, again, I come from the place of trying to have that productive conversation. Is it the way I think about it? Right. Like, I always use this example. My husband does a lot. We try to have a really equitable partnership, but I always say there's sneaky parts of the mental load that you don't realize you need to hand off to someone else until it happens.

00:10:12:00 - 00:10:28:18
Paige
So an example of this would be like I had always packed the kids snow gear for school. We live in New England. It's snowy in the winter. They have to bring literally everything snow boots, snow jacket, all that, bring it all to school and it's a huge pain in the [censored] for being honest. Like it's my least favorite time of year. My great big bag of snow stuff every single day.

00:10:28:20 - 00:10:43:04
Paige
And we got the email from school and I said to my husband out loud, hey, we have to start sending snow stuff this week. I got the email from school. Can we pack it together tonight? That's all I said. He was like, yep. And I said, don't let me forget. I think, I think I said I was like, don't let me forget that we need to do that.

00:10:43:04 - 00:10:57:07
Paige
And he's like, yep, on it. I get home from picking up all of the kids. He was home cooking dinner and all the snow gear was packed. Everything was packed, and he's like, hey, I did it! And I was like, amazing. Thank you so much. This is where I think some couples would have a fight and we didn't have a fight.

00:10:57:07 - 00:11:13:01
Paige
But what? But I think it's a really good learning example, and it's only because we put in a lot of reps before we got to this point, which was I looked at the snow gear and I thought, oh, he did it wrong, right? Like he did it wrong. Like he just didn't do it right. And so I looked at him, I said, hey, did you make sure to label everything?

00:11:13:02 - 00:11:35:14
Paige
And he's like, what? I think we have to label every single thing, every boot, every glove. Everything has to be labeled. They have sticky little name labels. They all have to be on their clothes. And he's like, no, I didn't. I'm sorry. I can do that later tonight. And I was like, okay, no big deal. As like also it has to be on a waterproof bag, and the bag has to be big enough that the kids can repack it themselves because the teachers don't help them. And they were like, really jammed, like Jenga style, into these bags that were not waterproof.

00:11:35:14 - 00:11:48:12
Paige
And I was like, I get what you were doing here, not going to work. And he was like, he didn't get mad. He wasn't like, oh my gosh. Like, then just do it yourself. I'm never going to do like, you know, which is what often happens, which is like, fine, you do it right. Like if you know the perfect way to do it, you do it.

00:11:48:16 - 00:12:06:20
Paige
The conversation really was, hey, I've already done this five times the last five years. I just know this, I know this. He didn't know any of this, so I didn't get mad. He didn't get mad. Later that night, we both relabeled everything, found bags that worked, repacked them. And then the next year, when the time came, he did it on his own.

00:12:06:21 - 00:12:21:01
Paige
Like, I didn't have to do anything. But it's like, I think there's two ways that could have gone right. Like it could have gone into a fight and him grandstanding and getting defensive and saying, I'm not going to do it any more than just do it yourself. Or it could have gone the other way. Right. And that's the difference.

00:12:21:01 - 00:12:27:13
Paige
And I think that's the struggle. A lot of couples have, which is, if you don't know which way it's going to go, it can be a hard conversation.

00:12:27:15 - 00:12:47:18
Lisa Sonni
That fear, which again, my world is that like you go to say, listen, it needs labels and different bags and you're like, oh my God. And you get so like sick and your heart is pounding. I feel like if you have that feeling before, you have to address that, you're in, at best, a toxic relationship, possibly an abusive one.

00:12:47:18 - 00:13:05:01
Lisa Sonni
But you shouldn't be nervous. But I think I want to draw attention here to your husband's reaction to being told that. It sounds like to me he understood that this was a school policy, not you being ridiculous. He gave you the benefit of the doubt and or he knows you. He knows that you don't just create these insane standards.

00:13:05:04 - 00:13:19:23
Lisa Sonni
And abusive men would be like, My God, Paige, you're so ridiculous. Oh, it has to be labeled. It has to be. Stop. Don't be. Don't be stupid. You're crazy. Your standards are ridiculous. Where your husband was like, oh, okay, got it. And then learned something. How nice.

00:13:20:04 - 00:13:34:00
Paige
Yeah. Or I think the other thing, you didn't say this, but I think alluded to it, which is like, well, who cares? Who cares if they're labeled? Who cares if they're in the wet bag? And it's like, well, if you put them in a cotton bag and it gets moldy and full of salt and sand, and if you don't label things, their mittens go missing.

00:13:34:00 - 00:13:49:04
Paige
And then we had to buy new mittens. And if we don't do it the right way, the teachers are going to tell us the bags too small. And and a week from now we need a new bag. Right. So, I think oftentimes what happened with the standards part to say it is her standards say she's the one who decided it should be in a wet bag that's big enough.

00:13:49:04 - 00:14:03:16
Paige
That has labels. I think what often happens is instead of asking their partner, okay, like interesting. Can you explain to me why we do that? Like why do we need a bigger why do we need labels? Why do we need a wet bag? Why do we need it to be a bigger bag? Like I thought this bag was great.

00:14:03:16 - 00:14:19:13
Paige
Like everything fits in the bag. Like, why do we need a bigger bag? A lot of people don't have that conversation. Instead, what they do is they say, like, this is ridiculous. Like, who cares? Like who cares? And then that person has to defend herself. Like, I care. And the reason I care is because of this laundry list of reasons

00:14:19:15 - 00:14:37:05
Paige
and I think one of the things that I always try to encourage in, like these conversations, just in general, again, with well-intentioned people is like, if your partner cares, you should do like if it's something your partner cares about, you should care about it too, because you care about them. Right? And so it's like, I think like that gets lost in the sauce a little bit.

00:14:37:06 - 00:14:53:08
Paige
When it comes to domestic labor in particular, I think like with a lot of things where my partner really loves, I don't know, hunting like, yay, he loves hunting. Let me support him in his hunting dreams. Whatever. That's all my husband does. But like you know, I don't know how that works. But like you say, they love that, you love that for them.

00:14:53:08 - 00:15:12:10
Paige
You're happy for them. You support them. When it comes to things like chores, people don't have that much capacity for, like, understanding each other and like, why they don't. Maybe they also don't even understand. Which I think we discredit a lot, which is like, how were you raised? Like, I was raised in a house where I remember my mom coming home counting how many lights were on because she was like, why?

00:15:12:10 - 00:15:25:04
Paige
Why have you guys left all the lights on? Right? Like, why are all the lights in the house on? And so like, I walk through my house did did did like just shutting lights off and my husband literally comes home every day. He's like, why is the house dark? Like, because I lived in a house where that was my life, right?

00:15:25:04 - 00:15:44:09
Paige
Like my mom was always telling us like, hey, stop wasting, like, just shut the lights off. And not like a mean way. But that was just like something she cared about. She cared about the electric bill. And, like, why is the light on in the basement when nobody's here? Right? And so, like, that was my life. My husband and I have these conversations with each other. Like, I always have the lights off because of that and because it's just, like, ingrained in me to shut a light off when I leave a room like it just.

00:15:44:09 - 00:16:00:20
Paige
That's how I live my life. I just did it before our call. I left the room, did shut the lights off behind me. I think, like, we don't we didn't have those conversations either. Which is like, why is my standard this way? Well, I grew up this way, or I was held to this standard as a child or this is what makes me feel, you know, my husband's ADHD.

00:16:00:20 - 00:16:16:16
Paige
There's certain ways he operates where he's like, this is how I can be most effective. I can't do it the way you're doing it, because my brain doesn't work that way. But we often don't leave space for those conversations when we're showing up, like with Anger first, which I get why people show up with anger first, especially women who are resentful and like, I get it, I've been there.

00:16:16:22 - 00:16:28:21
Paige
But when you show up that way first, it doesn't leave a lot of space for, understanding and empathy for one another. And like, moving forward with a deeper knowledge of why your partner might operate the way that they do.

00:16:29:00 - 00:16:52:07
Lisa Sonni
I so agree, and I think that's so important that both parties, yes, come into it with that level of curiosity, even even if like, he doesn't care, let's say who cares? Okay. Why though, why doesn't why doesn't it matter? Because I think ultimately sometimes we'll sort of circle back and it's like, because you don't have to get the new bag. When that bag becomes moldy, you don't have to do the laundry and wash all the snow stuff.

00:16:52:08 - 00:17:06:17
Lisa Sonni
You don't have to go out and physically buy new mittens. You're just going to go, well, Paige, they need them. And then Paige is going to go off to the store and buy them. So all of it goes back to her. So it's easy to not care. But I think everyone approaching with curiosity matters. Men and women both.

00:17:06:22 - 00:17:34:17
Lisa Sonni
When you approach your partner and you do show that curiosity or you ask nicely, you explain your point of view. Even if they don't ask and you're still getting shut down with it doesn't matter. You're ridiculous. And I want to kind of even note that why does it matter in whatever tone it's being asked in? Not great. But when you start getting into like you're ridiculous and your standards are crazy and you're kinda tiptoeing your way into verbal abuse, it can be it.

00:17:34:17 - 00:17:53:00
Lisa Sonni
Again, if it's a pattern, if not, then if somebody says you're ridiculous, that's automatically abusive. But this this minimization and dismissal of everything you're doing and I think even the the like the just give me a list guy. There's a lot in that concept of like, just tell me what needs to be packed. Just tell me what bag I need

00:17:53:04 - 00:18:09:03
Lisa Sonni
you so much work to write all that down and hand it to a grown adult who won't take the list, and then learn how to do it all and and own it from there on. But really, it's that man who always wants to list. What do you think that the list even implies needing one?

00:18:09:09 - 00:18:30:12
Paige
Yeah, I think it implies that that person, doesn't have ownership over any of those things. So there's a assumed ownership and accountability that the other person has. Right. So you own what has to get done. You're the one in charge like you tell me. Right. So it creates this dynamic that like really isn't great in a relationship, which is like you're the manager and the employee like you're telling me what to do.

00:18:30:13 - 00:18:44:02
Paige
You're responsible, right? Like it's your job to hit your quota for the day, right? Like you were the manager. Whether or not your team's doing a good job, not nobody else cares. Like it's your job to make everybody else do what they're supposed to do. said I worked in operations, in a previous life, and we had these like, really?

00:18:44:02 - 00:18:59:02
Paige
I was in charge of, like, maintaining like this org chart with all of our accountabilities. Right. And I remember being at a meeting once and the ball got dropped somewhere, the ball got dropped, and every single person in the meeting knew who dropped it because we had such clear accountability. We did, and we were all like, I remember my manager said, who dropped the ball?

00:18:59:05 - 00:19:17:08
Paige
And I said, so-and-so. And that person said, yeah, I did. It was me. And because it was just it was so cut and dry, right? It was so cut and dry. Who was responsible for what? And in organizations, it's always very, very cut and dry in relationships, even in roommate dynamics. Right? I think like we have to talk about the mental load as it has to do with like couples.

00:19:17:08 - 00:19:35:07
Paige
I think about siblings, I think about, roommates. I think about so many different dynamics where this shows up. Right. And plays like with your coworker who's never doing their fair share. Like these things come up. A lot of things that cause tension and issues are things that are unsaid and assumed. We assume somebody is doing it.

00:19:35:07 - 00:19:55:11
Paige
We assume somebody is accountable. We assume that person owns it. So like in my relationship, for example, my husband cooked dinner every night, but for a while he would always ask me what to make, which meant I had to know what we had, tell him what to make. And if everybody hated the meal that was on me because I, you know, like it. So it was the consequences of that decision also stayed with me.

00:19:55:11 - 00:20:12:15
Paige
So he physically did the task, but I owned I was accountable for it. And so I think that's the thing that comes up a lot that I think people don't talk about and is very unsexy, which is who the hell is responsible for what. I. Do is accountable to this thing. And I think you eventually get to a place like my husband.

00:20:12:15 - 00:20:24:22
Paige
I did the fair play method. We had the I turned it into a spreadsheet. It was like very specifically outlined. It's like you do this and I do this, and you do this, and I do this, and so if a ball was dropped, we knew exactly who dropped it. And we probably operated like that for like a year or two years.

00:20:25:00 - 00:20:42:00
Paige
We don't anymore because now we are both equally accountable just to our home functioning. And we know what has to get done. And if there's something I always own, I will communicate to him if I can't do it, and vice versa. But we don't operate our homes in the same way we operate our businesses, despite the fact that they have just as many moving parts, if not more moving parts.

00:20:42:00 - 00:20:57:02
Paige
When you have kids. And the ask me for a listing is like going to your manager and saying, tell me what to do today, what's the deliverables? What's that? What am I trying to do? What are you holding me accountable for? What are my tasks for the day? Not like what is the end result that we're trying to achieve?

00:20:57:02 - 00:21:13:09
Paige
So I think there's just, it creates this very unequal dynamic. And what what also happens with a list not to keep going on about this list, but what happens with the list is when that person is done with their checklist, they're done. But now it's up to the other person to ask again in the future to remember the list and to delegate it again.

00:21:13:13 - 00:21:21:17
Paige
So the person who like, makes the list never lets go. They never get to let go of the list, but the person who gets to check off the things on the list gets to be done with their job whenever the list is done.

00:21:21:20 - 00:21:37:09
Lisa Sonni
I like that you compare it to work actually, because to me that's one of the most obvious things is I just I admit, I've worked with men, I've worked for men, I've had men work under me. I have never had a man in a professional setting come to me every morning or weekly even. What do I do this week?

00:21:37:09 - 00:21:55:01
Lisa Sonni
What do I do today? Because I don't think men are incompetent. Contrary to what my public persona shows, I think a lot of people, especially men, think I hate men or think men are terrible. I actually, I think I think of men more highly than men think of men, because men are always saying, you're better at it and give me a list.

00:21:55:01 - 00:22:13:07
Lisa Sonni
I don't know men that need lists, not even my current partner, he would never. Actually, there's an interesting story and I, I actually, funnily enough, I thought of you. You and I don't know each other historically, but I thought was in this moment. He asked me when he first moved in how to fold towels, and I was like, oh my God, did this man just ask me how to fold a towel?

00:22:13:07 - 00:22:29:08
Lisa Sonni
I could scream, oh my God, no. He was asking me, how do you fold towels? Because he cared about what I wanted. The bathroom that we had in that house that we lived in at the time. All the towels were displayed like we didn't have, a linen closet. So it was just.

00:22:29:11 - 00:22:30:12
Paige
So you could see that. Was, he

00:22:30:14 - 00:22:51:06
Lisa Sonni
was asking how I wanted towels folded, and I was like, oh, oh, how I oh. And then I showed him and he was like, okay. And he folds towels that way. He didn't. It's not like I asked him to fold it into a swan, right? It's just a friggin towel. But I love that the men like that exist. And he doesn't ask for lists at work, and he doesn't ask for lists at home.

00:22:51:10 - 00:23:14:02
Lisa Sonni
And there's no. This is all your responsibility. I love the feeling of teamwork. So for women that are in relationships where you give him a list and he still doesn't do it, or he gets upset, he'll do the whole list wrong and then blame you for your standards. Like that's where you start to see. I want people to really see the comparison of what normal, healthy partnerships look like versus the one that maybe they're in.

00:23:14:05 - 00:23:16:04
Lisa Sonni
If you're not seeing this question, it.

00:23:16:08 - 00:23:32:18
Paige
Yeah. And I will say like, I don't you know, the list thing there, there's a book I don't know if you've read it. It's called What's on Her Mind by Allison Daminger. And she interviewed a bunch of couples, and she did all this research on kind of the inequities and and not just the mental load, but cognitive labor, emotional labor, all these things.

00:23:32:18 - 00:23:50:09
Paige
And. One of the things she found was that there's this dynamic that often comes up where we refer to the women as, like, Type-A. Right? Like they're very Type-A. She's a planner. She's there and we like brand her that way. And the men are laid back. He's chill. He's type B, like, he's just go with the flow.

00:23:50:11 - 00:24:13:16
Paige
And these men identify that way. Like, I'm just very. I'm just go with the flow. I'm just chill. And she's very Type-A. And that's why our relationship is this way. Because that's who she is. And this is who I am, right? They have these, like, self prescribed ideas of themselves. If you talk to a lot of women that like, I have a lot of friends who are like in my general life, I'm incredibly type B as a mother and in my home, I have to be Type-A because it'll get away from me so quickly if I'm not.

00:24:13:20 - 00:24:35:18
Paige
But also, when you ask these men, I think, Allison asked one of the men like, oh, what do you do for your day job? And he said, I'm a project manager. And she was like, oh, interesting. So you're a project manager at work, but at home you're laid back, chill. You're not like that. And so it's it's sometimes it's also about how we've been conditioned to show up and where we show up.

00:24:35:18 - 00:24:52:18
Paige
Right. Like men have been conditioned to, for better or for worse, prioritize work. Above all else, you need to make money, be a provider, be successful, and work. Whatever your work is above everything else, that's your number one job, right? Like even when we think about historically, like, what's a good dad? A dad who provides, a dad who puts food on the table,

00:24:52:18 - 00:25:09:07
Paige
who cares if he's home for dinner like he's a good dad? Whereas women, the number one thing that they are is a mother, right? Like they are a mom before everything else. And under that, they're the one who's cooking and cleaning. And below that, even if they have a career, careers like down here and the below career is like anything that has to do with hobbies or self-care or like anything. Right?

00:25:09:07 - 00:25:24:14
Paige
So like this hierarchy, and like even with men, work like it's important that they take care of themselves. But like women, we don't care if they take care of themselves unless everybody else is taking care of first. And so I also think, like, I remember having that conversation with my husband where I, he works a job that has a lot of overtime involved.

00:25:24:14 - 00:25:43:02
Paige
It's just like the nature of what he does. And I remember having to have a conversation with him once and saying, like, sometimes, like, sometimes your worth, your value is more important here than it is at work. Like, I understand the overtime is helpful financially. I understand why you want to say yes to it. And like you would always be like,

00:25:43:04 - 00:26:05:13
Paige
I feel guilty when I say no to overtime because that's money for our family. And I was like, I get that. But sometimes your presence at home is ten times more valuable to me than whatever that dollar was going to be like. It just is. And he he had to work through that, which was like, every time I say no to a work opportunity, I feel guilt and shame, like I'm not doing enough for my family because I'm not earning enough in this particular moment.

00:26:05:13 - 00:26:09:07
Paige
Like he works in this place where like some guys work insane amounts of overtime,

00:26:09:07 - 00:26:09:16
Lisa Sonni
he's like, oh,

00:26:09:22 - 00:26:24:08
Paige
the lowest on the overtime. Like he has the least amount of overtime. but in our lives, it's like, I don't that that's okay. Right. For our family. that's okay. And we're dual income home like we're I want to say like there's a lot of privilege with being able to say no to money. Right. Like so much privilege in that.

00:26:24:10 - 00:26:44:06
Paige
But men have been conditioned to view their time as most valuable in bringing in money, and women's time is most valuable in all the unpaid labor that they do, even when they're the one who earns the most money, like even when they're the only one earning money, they still do more at home. And I think that's a very good representation of how we've been conditioned to show up and expect to do.

00:26:44:09 - 00:27:02:11
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, absolutely. And again, none of that is inherently abusive. Right? I think that. No. Yeah. A man's openness to hear that. And even I think his expression of like, I feel guilt when instead of the immediate default of I have a negative feeling, therefore it's anger. He was like, I feel guilty and he could talk to you about that.

00:27:02:16 - 00:27:28:01
Lisa Sonni
So if that's not what's happening, if it's just a default of anger and it shuts the conversation down, I even think if we step away from the label of it's abusive, you're not going to get anywhere. Whether it's toxic, abusive, whatever his intention is, you can't get anywhere with someone who just shuts conversations down with anger and demands lists and just forces you into this role of you keeping everything going in the house.

00:27:28:01 - 00:27:39:18
Lisa Sonni
And I think this is actually where relationships like this start to feel like that parent child. Because like, I have kids and I give them lists and I help them do things and I teach them things. Yeah, you have to do that with a husband. It's like ick.

00:27:39:20 - 00:27:57:07
Paige
Yeah. And I think, you know, you mentioned anger shutting things down. I think defensiveness is a big one that comes up in the world that I live in is like, oh, well, he gets defensive and I always tell people my actually defensiveness is a pretty human reaction. Like, I don't get mad at people for getting defensive. I what I do judge is how they approach that defensiveness.

00:27:57:07 - 00:28:07:14
Paige
Like, I remember having a conversation with my husband, and it was one of those things where it's like, you know, I was saying, like, I do look at all the things I do like, oh my God, like, how do you not see all the stuff that I do? He's like, how do you not see all the stuff that I write like?

00:28:07:14 - 00:28:22:06
Paige
And it's like, and, I think what often happens is like, we have this war of like, who does more. Right? And then or one person's like gets very, very defensive. Right? Because I'm like, what would you do if your husband said, hey, can we have a conversation? And then he looked at you and told you all the ways that you suck.

00:28:22:08 - 00:28:35:22
Paige
And he's like, I, you don't do anything. I'm exhausted. I'm burnt out. I kind of hate you a little bit. You don't do enough. You never make the kids lunches, right? Like in like, all the things, right? You just kind of want them to take that off the chest, like a lot of women are like. And. And then he had the nerve to get defensive.

00:28:35:22 - 00:28:53:18
Paige
Like, how dare he? I'm the one drowning. And I felt the same way. Like, I get it. But what I always ask is like, I think it's normal to get defensive, right when you get bad feedback at work or a friend tells you you did something that hurt their feelings. Like we all get very direct, like it is a very normal reaction to get defensive and to want to defend yourself.

00:28:53:23 - 00:29:09:11
Paige
The question is, do you let that be the end of the conversation? Because I think that's what happens a lot, which is he gets defensive and that's the end. The conversation is done. He's defensive. She's hurt and frustrated. They don't talk about it. He's not willing to put his defensiveness to the side to have a conversation. And then it ends.

00:29:09:17 - 00:29:27:22
Paige
It's a roadblock. It becomes a roadblock. What can happen instead is having that conversation and saying, like, I remember saying to my husband at one point, I was like, my goal in telling you these things is not to make you feel bad or to make you defensive. And so what I need you to do is to even if you feel defensive, know what my intentions are and like, put it to the side for a minute.

00:29:28:00 - 00:29:45:21
Paige
Like, you can feel bad about it. Like I'm not. I'm not asking you not to feel bad or to feel whatever. Fine. But like in order for us to actually figure something out, like we have to have a conversation. So, like, you know, we're not going to let that feeling be the end of this conversation. And I think that's a part where people don't like, again, it depends on the partner, depends on the people.

00:29:46:01 - 00:30:01:13
Paige
But we kind of fall into this position where it's like the defensiveness happens and then the conversation just ends and it can't end there. It has to be almost like the starting point, like you're feeling defensive. Why do you feel defensive? Maybe they'll say like, well, I feel like I'm working on hours and I feel like I do a lot.

00:30:01:17 - 00:30:11:21
Paige
And you could say like you do, but like, what can we do differently because this isn't working, like it's just not working. So if it's not working, we got to figure it out. And I think people just don't don't tend to have those conversations.

00:30:12:02 - 00:30:29:21
Lisa Sonni
It's not as common. I think approaching with curiosity, like we said, it's just you need to for women who are approaching it as as well as they can with curiosity. And I know I've approached things in my past relationships like, I really just need help. There's so much to do. And you're being met with what? What is there to do?

00:30:29:21 - 00:30:57:21
Lisa Sonni
It's not that bad. It's this and just creating excuses. And they're not willing to get past the defensiveness because I completely agree with you. Defensive is the most normal feeling when anybody is giving you feedback about something. You could be doing better, but if that shuts the conversation down, it ends it. And the husband in this case never comes back to the conversation either, because you never bring it up, because you've just been conditioned that every time you bring it up, he gets defensive, angry, upset, and then it's done it.

00:30:57:21 - 00:31:11:23
Lisa Sonni
There's such a big like a much bigger problem that needs to be addressed. This isn't just a matter of like, I wonder what's going on with him. Often men are using this to shut the conversation down so that they don't have to actually take it on and do it.

00:31:12:02 - 00:31:27:00
Paige
Yeah. And I think that it's okay to, to your point to revisit the conversation like like I remember my husband and I communicate very differently. I think people who follow me on the internet always say like how do you talk so fast and articulate exactly what you mean. And like it's so to the point and that is just how we communicate.

00:31:27:00 - 00:31:44:04
Paige
My husband is like, girl, that was too much at one time. He's like, you just came at me. I need a minute to, like, process what you've said. And and to get back to you like I need a minute. And that was really hard for me because I wanted an answer. I'm like, tell me right now. Like I want to hear because I've been thinking about this, right?

00:31:44:04 - 00:31:58:12
Paige
And I knew exactly what I wanted to say to you, and that wasn't really fair, right? Like, so I had to get comfortable with saying like, that's fine, you can take your beat, but it's your job to bring it back up to me and I'm not going to bring it back up. And you need to come back to me, and we need to have an intentional conversation at a later time.

00:31:58:17 - 00:32:15:02
Paige
I also think that's the key to like, a lot of this stuff happens. Like we said, in the moment when kids are around, I refuse to have one of these conversations in front of my kids. We don't have. We never talk about any of these things. So I think we would say, I would say to my husband in certain moments like, hey, I'm going to talk about this later and like that, that.

00:32:15:02 - 00:32:30:12
Paige
But that couldn't mean that I had to be the only one to address it later, right? Like we both had to address it later. It's it's not bad to to to put something on pause like that's life. Like that's how it goes. And it gives both of you time to like, think and process and like know what you feel.

00:32:30:14 - 00:32:40:01
Paige
But but the problem is when it doesn't come back right where it is, just like shut down. And you always have to make sure that it comes back and then it's not just delayed until the next time it happens, which is usually what happens.

00:32:40:04 - 00:32:53:02
Lisa Sonni
I know, and it actually kind of reminds me of this. Like, remind me, remind me to have the conversation, remind me to do the dishes, remind me to take the garbage out. And then you remind him and he's like, okay, okay, I'll do it. You remind him one more time and God, you're such a nag.

00:32:53:06 - 00:32:53:14
Paige
Yeah.

00:32:53:19 - 00:33:13:14
Lisa Sonni
Again, going back into the name calling, which is a pretty clear sight. Again, not every man that calls his wife at nag means automatically abusive, but like, it's the method of shutting down the conversation by making you feel like you're asking too many times. And I am so thinking of Abby Eckel. Right now when she's like, well, maybe you should have listened the first time, right?

00:33:13:17 - 00:33:19:11
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, yeah, women aren't next. They just need. To get things done because they've been put in the role of house manager.

00:33:19:14 - 00:33:38:11
Paige
yeah. And I think this comes back to if people aren't familiar with Laura Danger in her work with the nag paradox. Like it's a, it's it's a really problematic dynamic. And but also to your point of it not always being abusive. I think the thing about a nag situation is, right, that's also so normalized in our culture. It is not, like I think about the TV shows my parents watch growing.

00:33:38:11 - 00:33:57:09
Paige
I think about like the Sopranos or Everybody Loves Raymond, or like any of those shows, the way that they position the wife, she's the grouchy nag. She's always complaining. She's always making him do things he doesn't want to do. And he's the funny, carefree, lovable husband, right? Like, or whatever that dynamic is. That is not an unusual like dynamic to see in TV.

00:33:57:12 - 00:34:06:21
Paige
And like, if you think about what we grew up watching, like, I that that's just that was normal, right? I don't if anybody seen the show, it's like like Kevin can go [censored] himself or something. Have you say something.

00:34:06:21 - 00:34:10:15
Lisa Sonni
Like, I've never seen it, but I that's the name of the show. I've never seen it. It's such

00:34:10:15 - 00:34:28:23
Paige
an interesting show because it's positioned as if it's like Everybody Loves Raymond, so it's like a sitcom. Lights are bright, couple joking, husband always joking at the expense. And as she walked out of the room, it goes dark and it's like the real lived reality of her life. Like who and how she experiences him. And so it's like the dark side and the and the humorous side that we paint for the world.

00:34:29:02 - 00:34:55:06
Paige
I highly recommend it, but I think that is it's not, unusual to hear the word nag or the old ball and chain, or even to see those dynamics exist within a relationship, because we've been shown them so many times that we think they're normal. Like that is normal. That is what marriage looks like. It was very rare that you would see the opposite of that in a TV show where like, the husband was like doting and obsessed and like, I'll do whatever she asks, like, happy, tell me how high to jump.

00:34:55:06 - 00:35:15:21
Paige
I'll jump, right? Like you don't see that. You see that alternative. So I think I try to have some compassion for people to say like, you know, we were raised with this idea of what it looked like to be in a partnership and that was painted pretty clearly, I think, for a lot of men. So when they use that term nag, they don't even think about it in, in the way I think that women do.

00:35:15:21 - 00:35:26:07
Paige
Right? Like they think about it as like a normal dynamic that happens in marriages where women are nags and it's the honey do list and it's, you know, things that we've joked about for a very, very long time.

00:35:26:11 - 00:35:46:20
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. I don't laugh at those things anymore. Having now experienced that, the actually, when you said honey do list, I was like, oh, I had a post-it note on my old fridge with my ex that said honey do list on a like a little whiteboard magnetic. And I would put things on it because he asked for a list, but that was just a list that sat on the fridge endlessly. That never got completed.

00:35:46:20 - 00:36:16:12
Lisa Sonni
And if I were writing, I'm a nag. And if I criticize anything and I say criticize. But like if I just said, you know, you you took the garbage from the kitchen to the door, but you didn't take it out, or you loaded the dishwasher and it's full, but you didn't run it like all these little things. It's like it would be more helpful if I was trying to be so nice about it, but I was constantly met with it being shut down. And I really feel like that's one of the primary differences in a man who's willing to listen and be a partner

00:36:16:17 - 00:36:38:00
Lisa Sonni
and find out where we can fix or improve things, versus a man who will just find any possible way to shut conversations down, especially when you look at it being the this the woman's standards. As soon as we classify women as Type-A perfectionists, insane standards, everything she says after that can be dismissed because you're crazy. It's gaslighting.

00:36:38:03 - 00:36:56:17
Paige
Yeah, I mean, I get that from men on the internet all the time. Which is so funny. But yeah, like, I can see it for what it is, but yeah, it is, it's it's it's a really tricky dynamic. And I think also probably sometimes again, like if we go back to how we were raised, it's like, what did you see growing up?

00:36:56:17 - 00:37:06:10
Paige
What did I see growing up where our parents dynamics like, I think that comes into play a lot too, and how people show up with in their partnerships and what they think is like acceptable or normal behavior.

00:37:06:12 - 00:37:29:03
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, I completely agree. I think more than anything, especially for those with children, when you look at living in a house with a man like I'm describing, if you live in a house like that, your children are undoubtedly watching this. And whether they hate it or not, whether they like their dad or not. Yeah, because trust me, some kids completely see their dads for who they are. But you're showing them something that's normal.

00:37:29:06 - 00:37:48:22
Lisa Sonni
And it's very hard as an adult to not live out exactly what you saw as a child because it's so, natural. Like it's just men do this. I know I watched my father not participate in household things. And so when I grew up and I was in my own relationships, a man not doing a lot of the inside work was normal.

00:37:49:01 - 00:38:05:16
Lisa Sonni
And then I was drowning. And when I look back, he talked to my old mother about it and she's like, oh yeah, I was drowning the whole time. And I thought, well, I don't, I don't like that. I don't want to drown. I that's horrible. Now my situation was much worse. I was in an actually physically, financially, emotionally, sexually abusive relationship.

00:38:05:16 - 00:38:19:19
Lisa Sonni
So it was abuse all around. But these are some of the earlier signs actually, that I missed was all of the ways that it was minimized and dismissed. And I was put in charge of everything while being the breadwinner, while working as many hours as he was made. No sense.

00:38:19:22 - 00:38:38:21
Paige
Yeah. You just brought something up that I think comes up a lot in this conversation is this idea of, I think we often in our society, because we live under capitalism, you know, most of us, money comes up a lot in these conversations. And, I think going back to the parent thing, it's like, I think kids either want to emulate or do the complete opposite of what their parents did.

00:38:38:21 - 00:38:52:17
Paige
Right? They're like, either I do that or I want to do the complete opposite of that. And like, I think it also depends on your experience, right? Like goes to the positive or negative, like what are you going to do. And so I think that shows up. But I also think this idea of money comes up. Right. You just allude to being the breadwinner.

00:38:52:17 - 00:39:11:02
Paige
You alluded, to drowning at the time. I think one thing that I always tell couples is I really don't care what you do for work. I don't care how much money you make. At the end of the day. My question is, do you share time fairly? Because I right now make more money than my husband, but I work less hours than he does?

00:39:11:05 - 00:39:29:08
Paige
It wouldn't be fair of me to be like, sorry, did I make way more money? So like, you're going to have to just, like, do everything because, like, I make all of the money, right? Like, that is weird. That would be weird. My time is not more valuable because I make more money than he does. But that comes up a lot

00:39:29:08 - 00:39:41:03
Paige
where women will tell me, hey, you know, I'm a stay at home mom. He makes all the money. Like, I never have hobbies. I never see my friends. I never get to go to the gym. But he goes to the gym every single day. But he's the one making all the money, so, like, I feel bad asking him not to do that.

00:39:41:06 - 00:39:57:09
Paige
And I always tell them I'm like, well, how many hours is you working? 40. Okay, great. That's how many hours you're working. Any time outside of that should be shared like it should be 5050 on the time outside of that. because I also have women who come to me and say, like, we work the same hours, we work the exact same hours, but he makes twice as much as I do, and so I do twice as much at home.

00:39:57:12 - 00:40:16:23
Paige
No, why why should you be like, quote unquote, like earning your your free time, earning your like, that doesn't make any sense in a partnership where you own a home and you have children together, you live together. I always tell people the currency is not money, it is time. It is your time. And there is absolutely no reason. One person should have exponentially more time for themselves than the other person

00:40:16:23 - 00:40:37:01
Paige
in the data shows. But I think this is worst amongst parents to young kids and men and women. When they have kids under the age of 4 or 5, I believe it is. Men tend to have 4.5 hours more free time every single week than their male counterparts, and women tend to do more childcare and domestic labor. Those numbers go down as kids get older, but in every single circumstance, men have more free time.

00:40:37:06 - 00:40:53:19
Paige
So even when a woman's the sole breadwinner or is the sole earner, men have just as much free time, if not more free time, especially when they have a stay at home parent. So it's in every circumstance. Women are doing more unpaid labor. And so we know that it's actually not really about money. Right? So because when women are the ones making it, it doesn't move the needle.

00:40:53:21 - 00:41:06:23
Paige
And so I always tell people take money out of the equation. That doesn't matter. The only time money matters is if you're making enough money to outsource. And if you're making enough money to outsource the laundry and outsource the food, that's where you get to buy some of these time. But you don't get to buy your wife's time.

00:41:07:00 - 00:41:21:17
Paige
You're not paying her right. Like to like, do the laundry. You don't get to never do laundry again because you make more money than her. If that's what you want, then you can pay a laundry service with that money, right? Like. Like you could pay to outsource things. That's totally fine. Like whoever has the means to outsource. Like, by all means, please outsource.

00:41:21:17 - 00:41:30:23
Paige
That's a it's a lot of work. But you don't outsource to your partner. If that's not how that works. So, I think that's also a big power dynamic thing that happens in a lot of relationships.

00:41:30:23 - 00:41:56:00
Lisa Sonni
It actually is because I tell you, I deal with women of all, you know, financial backgrounds. And if I'm looking at the ones that can afford and have that privilege to be able to outsource, sometimes men and I'm heavy on the air quotes here allow their wives to outsource. But actually there are so many abusive men that absolutely have the means five times over to be able to afford help for their wife, but they don't want her to have help.

00:41:56:00 - 00:42:17:02
Lisa Sonni
They want her to do it. It's very important that they do it. They want free domestic labor from their wife, who, when they get divorced, they will say, what did you do to earn my money with 5050? Are you crazy? And they'll start hiding money because she's been a stay at home mom and her value was nothing. So she didn't actually earn the money in his mind. She didn't earn it by being his wife.

00:42:17:02 - 00:42:23:05
Lisa Sonni
She didn't earn it with all the free domestic labor. So why would you do it? What a crazy like men would never sign up for that raw deal.

00:42:23:05 - 00:42:28:06
Paige
No. Nobody would. I mean, if you if you painted that picture or gave somebody that job description, they wouldn't want it.

00:42:28:08 - 00:42:45:22
Lisa Sonni
Nobody would. But I know I don't like I would I would never it sounds absolutely awful. You have to be able to have these conversations. But when women are just being shut down and name called, it's not just a lack of balance in the relationship where you can sit down and have a conversation. I am pro having these conversations,

00:42:45:22 - 00:43:06:23
Lisa Sonni
even when you look at the standards thing, I'll always remember some weird debate some man tried to have with me years ago. It was it was insane. Short story is he basically said that women have higher standards, and if women standards are going to stay high, then they can just do it themselves. And I think that inherently is abusive because to him it was just I don't have to care.

00:43:07:04 - 00:43:30:02
Lisa Sonni
I don't love her enough to care. I don't care what she thinks or wants or how she feels. I don't want to do it and that's it. She's going to do it herself. And we were talking about like, picking up your laundry off the floor that he put on the floor. He's fine with it there. But I do find that most men want their houses to be tidy, and they do actually have standards, like they will give their wives standards that the wife has to meet.

00:43:30:07 - 00:43:52:10
Lisa Sonni
It's not actually that the women have crazy high standards. He has the high standards of it. She's the one that has to do all the work to get them there. So I think a man who's not listening and dismissive and doesn't care and shut you down, these are horrible men. But this kind of conversation shows women what your average and or healthy man is behaving like versus their husbands.

00:43:52:10 - 00:43:59:05
Lisa Sonni
And if there's no way to talk about this, you're in a double bind. And when you're in a double bind, it's usually abuse.

00:43:59:08 - 00:44:24:21
Paige
yeah. And I think it's so important I think like that happened and it's very real. And I hear from women who are living it all the time. And I, you know, I feel for them immensely because it's incredibly difficult. I think I always try to tell people to like, there's the other side of it where it's not like that, like it like people are good intentioned and like we live in this really black and white world where if I came on the internet, like I have come on the internet and said, like, this was the mental load dynamic and everybody goes, immediate divorce, that's abuse.

00:44:24:21 - 00:44:45:22
Paige
Or like, that's he's a shitty husband, right? Like point blank done over. We have very little room for the gray. And I think like the in-between, which is like it's a shitty experience that we're having, but it's not the worst case scenario. But what I think happens when we don't have that gray area is it's actually way harder to distinguish what's what's normal, what's not normal.

00:44:46:03 - 00:45:04:04
Paige
Like when we have these like extremes because there is a middle ground here. And so like if we if we can't get to a place where we acknowledge that, I think it leaves us in it in a worse off position. And so, yeah, I just think, I think it's, I share my side and I often tell people, there are shades of gray in the middle.

00:45:04:04 - 00:45:23:20
Paige
It is not black and white in these conversations. And the more we normalize having the conversations and being allowed to have these conversations, so often I think people have said to women, don't talk badly about your husband, never say anything. Don't tell people. And I'm like, no, that's so weird. That is so weird. Tell everyone, because that's also how you distinguish like, this is normal.

00:45:23:20 - 00:45:39:20
Paige
This is like appropriate. This is okay too. This is not okay. Right? Because like I think like you can get with a group of women and like they'll be chatting and everybody will be like, yeah like that. How annoying, how annoying. I know. And, and one person said something and I was like, oh, that's not annoying. That's like end like, like a lot of times you're

00:45:39:20 - 00:45:55:09
Paige
like, hey, like that, that's not okay. Are you okay? Like, but that only happens when you normalize having these conversations and I do it on the internet. It's not for the faint of heart. It. I definitely don't suggest it to anyone else, to be honest, because the internet's a dangerous, scary place and men are awful men on the internet or app on that.

00:45:55:09 - 00:46:09:02
Paige
All men. but I think like these conversations are not conversations women historically have had. And what that has done is what your mom said, which is like, it's always been like this. And I remember my mom saying that to me like, oh, yeah, I was like that when I was raising you guys too. And I was like, wow, that's ridiculous.

00:46:09:07 - 00:46:27:19
Paige
And why is nobody saying anything and why is nobody talking about it? And I refuse to live that way. So I'm not going to live that way. And I'm going to tell everybody I'm I tell I'm going to shout it from the rooftops because this is crazy. But if more of us start talking about it, it normalizes changing the behavior more and more, and it makes it a lot easier to distinguish, okay, this is normal.

00:46:27:23 - 00:46:32:04
Paige
We can change this. It's appropriate. Like we can adapt here. And what's not normal.

00:46:32:09 - 00:46:55:14
Lisa Sonni
I completely agree. The the nuance required to have the conversations you're having and the conversations I'm having. And then we're seeing an overlap. But the gray area is so important now I feel like I'm sort of queen of black and white. I like to oversimplify things, but I oversimplify it openly. Like I will say, this is oversimplified, but because again, it's not like weaponized incompetence is abuse.

00:46:55:14 - 00:47:14:20
Lisa Sonni
I might say that, and that is, I think, fundamentally true. But it removes the gray area. And I actually love talking about the gray area because certain things need to have happened first. Even when you look at weaponized incompetence, let's say, and you talk about standards, an example I always use is dishes because it's such a perfect everyday example all day.

00:47:15:00 - 00:47:33:19
Lisa Sonni
What does what does babe, can you do the dishes mean at your house versus my house? It doesn't even matter. Maybe you have a dishwasher. Or I do and you don't. Or you mean wash, load dry? You mean just load the dishwasher and run it? Whatever. If it's not even important, it's what you mean when you speak to your spouse.

00:47:33:23 - 00:47:52:04
Lisa Sonni
And what I mean when I speak to my spouse, you and I, who you know don't interact and who cares about our dishes, we don't have to agree. It's just in your house. So to me, once you've had the conversation, then you can start to say, we've talked about the standard. We agreed that both of us like to eat off clean plates. So why when you do it?

00:47:52:04 - 00:48:07:17
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. Are the plates dirty? Can we talk about a more effective way? What's going on and approach with curiosity. But if he's like then do it yourself. Well, wait a second. Why? Why? Because we both like to eat off clean plates. But I'm the only the one saying it out loud. Is it now my job. Right?

00:48:07:20 - 00:48:21:10
Paige
yeah. No, I totally agree. And I think the standards conversation, I always tell people I'm like, I think that's one of the first places to start. When you move in with somebody, when you, you know, when you're having these early conversations, which is like, oh, this is how I do laundry, how do you do laundry? Like, this is how I do dishes.

00:48:21:10 - 00:48:34:10
Paige
How do you do dishes? Because to your point, like I just think about dishes in our house, we don't leave dishes in the sink. Ever. Like my son put a spoon in the sink this morning. I said, I don't think that's where that goes. And he was like, And he put it in the dishwasher and I'm like, it doesn't go there. Because then who puts it?

00:48:34:12 - 00:48:48:01
Paige
Then I have to come over here to put in the dishwasher, you know where it goes. Right? but to your point, like, that's how my house operates. That's how our home is in someone else's house. They actually might leave everything in the sink for later. And then they just, you know, like we all do things differently. And that's okay.

00:48:48:03 - 00:48:51:20
Paige
The question is, how does your home operate the best and how do you guys communicate with each other about it?

00:48:51:23 - 00:49:12:19
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. And I mean, oh, how do you guys communicate with each other is like the whole point of this entire conversation. If the communication is being shut down, dismissed, and there's just ongoing, frankly, permanent defensiveness, there's bigger conversations that need to happen. So many couples can work through this and make it be something that they both agree to. Yeah, happy with

00:49:12:19 - 00:49:33:00
Lisa Sonni
and define the responsibilities. I'm a big fan of fair play as well, but I think women can listen to this conversation and sort of see where they sort of fall, because asking women to communicate better and be more direct and all the things I think that most women are, I mean, we're known for over communicating, right? Most women are having these conversations.

00:49:33:05 - 00:49:56:14
Lisa Sonni
So look at his response and then measure what you will do next. How many more times are you going to have these conversations before something might need to change? Or having deeper conversations needs to take place? Yeah, happens. So I'm so happy to have you here and have this session. Is there anything you want to say to this audience that might benefit from, you know, understanding a lot more about the gray area?

00:49:56:18 - 00:50:17:03
Paige
I think the thing I always like to leave people with is this, thing that I think made me feel better when I was like, struggling with the inequities in my marriage, which was, you know, I think in all of these scenarios, whether it's abusive or not. Right. If I was showing up with good intentions, if you've come to this position where things feel really inequitable and you're unhappy, chances are it's not your fault.

00:50:17:03 - 00:50:29:15
Paige
Okay? I think a lot of women take on the blame. I picked the wrong guy. I didn't set the right standards. I didn't have the right conversations. I didn't do it right. But whatever the long, long list of the things we did wrong, and I think that's because of how we talk to women. We often say like, well, you should have picked a better husband.

00:50:29:18 - 00:50:57:10
Paige
No, it's not your fault. Like, I actually tell people with the mental load conversation, the domestic labor inequities that exist, if you are able to avoid it, that's incredibly rare. And it's chances are you were incredibly intentional about it because systemically, it's very difficult to avoid. Societally it's very difficult to avoid. And we fall even the most egalitarian couples like who do everything fairly when they have kids, almost always fall into traditional roles when it comes to the children in particular.

00:50:57:15 - 00:51:15:08
Paige
And so that says something, right? Like, it is not your fault. It's not something you did wrong. But we can change. It doesn't mean we shouldn't change it, right? We should still change it. So anyways, that's that's what I like to leave people with. It's not your fault. Like you're totally fine. And, like, I think so often women take on the blame for literally everything.

00:51:15:10 - 00:51:16:22
Paige
And I don't think you should agree.

00:51:17:01 - 00:51:21:09
Lisa Sonni
That's a perfect way to end this. What a perfect message. Where can people find you, Paige?

00:51:21:14 - 00:51:36:23
Paige
Yeah, you can find me all over social media at. She is Paige Turner. I have a website, Substack, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, YouTube, you know, you name it. I'm pretty much there. I'm a LinkedIn, I am everywhere. I have a podcast, called Just Girls. You can listen that's more fun, lighthearted. We're not talking about the mental load.

00:51:36:23 - 00:51:45:15
Paige
We're just talking about life. Sometimes the mental load. But it's just for fun. And yeah, I think, that is pretty much everywhere you can find me.

00:51:45:18 - 00:51:51:01
Lisa Sonni
Amazing. Thank you so much for being part of this nuanced, great conversation.

00:51:51:06 - 00:51:53:01
Paige
Thank you so much for having me.

00:51:53:03 - 00:52:02:14
Lisa Sonni
If this episode gave you clarity. Share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember, you're stronger than before.

00:52:02:16 - 00:52:06:20
Music
Stronger than before.