Relationships Uncensored: Real Talk with Lisa Sonni
This is the podcast your abuser doesn’t want you to hear.
Hosted by relationship coach and abuse recovery educator Lisa Sonni, Relationships Uncensored pulls back the curtain on toxic and abusive dynamics, gender based violence, and romantic relationships, This is the raw truth no one else is saying out loud. No sugarcoating. No “just leave” advice.
Just real stories, real insight, and real talk - so you can finally feel seen, not silenced.
Relationships Uncensored: Real Talk with Lisa Sonni
How Abusers Use Technology to Track, Watch & Control You with Dr. Christine Cocchiola | S5E03
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Send Lisa a question for her to reply in a future episode!
How Abusers Use Technology to Track, Watch & Control You | Dr. Christine Cocchiola If “I just worry about you” or “text me when you get there” has ever felt more like monitoring than care, this episode explains why. Lisa Sonni sits down with Dr. Christine Cocchiola, whose work in domestic violence, sexual assault crisis, and protective parenting helps survivors name coercive control—especially when it hides inside location sharing, passwords, and digital access that look protective at first.
They break down how tech-enabled abuse can include tracking, account access, hidden cameras, phone and Wi-Fi surveillance, and devices disguised in everyday objects. Dr. Cocchiola emphasizes that patterns matter more than isolated requests: when a request becomes a rule and the rule keeps expanding, your agency shrinks. The conversation also covers post-separation abuse, why coercive control is a serious safety warning, and why strategy—not proving the truth to someone unsafe—is often the path to protection.
Join Lisa Sonni & Dr. Peter Salerno in Boston, MA November 13-15, 2026 here: https://lisasonni.com/unbreakable-and-irreplaceable/
This is the podcast they don't want you listening to.
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00:00:00:00 - 00:00:08:17
Music
00:00:08:19 - 00:00:17:19
Lisa Sonni
This is Real Talk With Lisa Sonni: Relationships Uncensored, the podcast they don't want you listening to.
00:00:17:21 - 00:00:37:10
Lisa Sonni
One of the reasons that coercive control is just so hard to recognize is because it's often invisible. It can sound really loving, and they might say things like, I just worry about you, or text me when you're there. And some of these things sound so simple and are not abusive on its face. But when do these things become abusive?
00:00:37:10 - 00:00:58:16
Lisa Sonni
How can people tell there's a real problem when care becomes access to these men? When you're in a relationship with him and he sort of positions it as, I'm just taking care of you, you might feel safe, you might feel like he loves you, but there could be a lot going on behind this that we don't recognize. So there is no better expert than to talk about this
00:00:58:16 - 00:01:06:21
Lisa Sonni
doctor Christine Cocchiola I would love to hear a little bit more about your background. tell our audience who you are and what makes you an expert on coercive control.
00:01:06:23 - 00:01:25:04
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Well, thank you so much for having me. I can't keep track of all that you're doing. You are all over the place doing amazing work. And you know, someone called me yesterday and said, you know, what could I do in the field? I'm like, are you kidding me? We need more people doing this work. unfortunately, as you know, there's a plethora of clients who are suffering this.
00:01:25:08 - 00:01:47:21
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
It's just such an epidemic. I have been doing this work since the age of 19. I've been a domestic violence sexual assault crisis counselor. That's about four decades. I've just aged myself and was a volunteer for the safe haven of Greater Waterbury. An umbrella agency for about 35 years of my life and didn't know what was happening to me because there was one physical incident in the marriage.
00:01:48:00 - 00:02:10:22
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
But I probably I'm pretty sure I pushed them back. I'm pretty sure I was physically aggressive back. and then there was never another one. And so, you know, not all abusers, you started off by like a little bit of a description of coercive control. And it's so important for people to understand it's a trajectory of behavior. You know, people start off with this love bombing in this giving, in this kindness to lure us in.
00:02:11:03 - 00:02:35:21
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
That's how they obtain control. How do they maintain it? They maintain it by diminishing us. They maintain it by creating inequality in the relationship. They maintain it by gaslighting us, by manipulating us. And then over time, we require less. We become smaller and and then and then how do they regain it when we attempt to escape, which is a lot of our work.
00:02:35:21 - 00:02:57:00
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
I know Lisa, right. As like how? Like when they're coming in and they're totally bamboozling our entire like the whole our whole life is ruined as a result of this one relationship. They try to regain it through vexatious litigation. They've probably been stalking us all along and we didn't even know it. Stalking is illegal in all 50 states, yet we never like when it's a partner.
00:02:57:00 - 00:03:17:03
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Nobody ever really calls it out as abusive, right? And so all the things that they do and of course, weaponizing the children, which you know, is my specific niche, but I am grateful because I was mentored by Doctor Evan Stark, who is the advance of the term. And I have been a trauma informed therapist. And attachment theory is really the basis of my work and abusers.
00:03:17:07 - 00:03:40:20
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Frankly, their pathology is very much about a person who has disorganized attachment. They never feel secure and their relationship dynamics as a child. Over time, the best thing to do to survive is to hide how invaluable I feel to the world. And in that I get better at it. I just get better at it. And you know, this is the scary part, right?
00:03:40:22 - 00:03:46:22
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
so that's my work and I've been doing it for a long time, and I, I wouldn't want to do anything else.
00:03:46:22 - 00:04:05:08
Lisa Sonni
So I feel exactly the same way. You know, it's you talk about this experience that you personally have had, but also just advocating for women that get trapped in these relationships. I remember trying to kind of separate my work as a relationship coach and working with abuse victims and the patriarchy and thinking that those are two separate topics.
00:04:05:08 - 00:04:27:09
Lisa Sonni
And as I started really learning more about it, like hello World, living in it, I was like, how do you separate the topics? I don't I can't even remember thinking how they were two separate topics. They're so connected. I think even when you look at this concept of benevolent abuse, it comes from this patriarchal belief that he needs to protect you and that allows a doorway into I just want to know where you are.
00:04:27:15 - 00:04:45:02
Lisa Sonni
It's normal to have locations turned on. And, you know, really one of the specific things here is this sort of tech abuse or digital abuse that we see both in stalking, in location tracking, in, you know, cameras and all kinds of crazy things. But benevolent abuse was a term that I actually only heard maybe this year or last year.
00:04:45:02 - 00:04:56:11
Lisa Sonni
And I just thought like, wow, you know, and I love that all the names that we're all coming up for, with, with these things because it needs to be named so you can see what it is. What has your experience been with Benevolent abuse?
00:04:56:12 - 00:05:11:16
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Wow. So that's like such a loaded question. So I started dating my ex when I was 16 and it was all benevolent abuse. It was all it felt really good. I was a young girl, I was my parents wouldn't let me date. I was like this young guy around the corner. I fell in love with him. He was so in love with me.
00:05:11:16 - 00:05:32:22
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Right. And as we know, with so many of the people we work with, this is their experience. It feels so damn good in the beginning. We feel so important. They mirror us. They want to be more like us. They wish, oh, in their wildest dreams. They wish they could be us and they can't be us. And so the only way to deal with that shame, I believe, is to actually just control us.
00:05:32:23 - 00:05:50:11
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
and, you know, it's like some of us as you know, there's like these diagnoses out there. We call it like some people call this narcissism, right? Where people are like, you know, have these harmful traits. But a lot of this could also be attributed to something called borderline, which I don't believe in. By the way. I'm just going to put it out there as a therapist.
00:05:50:11 - 00:06:30:07
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
The DSM five, in my opinion, is a pile of junk. It's been created by men for men to diagnose people who do not fit societal norms. Yes. Is it helpful to have labels? Sometimes? Of course it is. But overall, when you have a major medical practitioner who's trying to come up with a developmental trauma disorder so that we can stop labeling children with ADHD and oppositional defiant disorder and conduct sorter. And they have 100 people on their team who have done research to prove that so many children who are having these diagnoses have grown up in family systems where they haven't felt safe, and that's developmental trauma disorder, and it is denied by the APA.
00:06:30:12 - 00:06:51:16
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
how in the world can we even, like, pay homage to a book that would deny a child's experiences when they're living in trauma? So that's why I digress. But I think the point is, is that there are some character traits that we can pull from some of these diagnoses. Of course. Right. And you know, a lot of them, by the way, I'll just say, as an aside, a lot of these diagnoses were created without research.
00:06:51:20 - 00:07:11:18
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
They were just behaviors that came up. So there's not even a research based like information that we have in the DSM five, the Bible that we use to diagnose people. It's kind of insane. But abusers have one very significant trait a fear of abandonment. And when we try to escape, if they have a fear in any way that we might do that,
00:07:11:18 - 00:07:31:00
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
they have to start tracking us. They have to, because their biggest fear is that we're going to lead them. And that would be more of a more of a borderline trait, not necessarily entirely. That would be more of a borderline trait. And the other piece that tends to be conflated with narcissism is this splitting where things are either all good or all bad.
00:07:31:00 - 00:07:39:08
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
And you know just as well as I do, that is the moment that we know they're tracking us and we call them out on it. We are now the devil, right?
00:07:39:10 - 00:07:42:17
Lisa Sonni
And if the safety that he's offering you.
00:07:42:19 - 00:07:55:05
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Oh, there we go back to the benevolent. Right. So yeah. And so, I think it's it's intriguing to see how frequently they are able to convince us that this is about us and our safety.
00:07:55:10 - 00:07:56:00
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Yeah.
00:07:56:00 - 00:07:57:18
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
When it's actually about them controlling. It,
00:07:57:20 - 00:08:13:10
Lisa Sonni
it is so often. But I get why we don't like when you're living in a patriarchy, which we all are, right? I know some people deny that, but like, we're all living in this. And when a man says to you, I just want to know that you got there safely. Not to say, of course, I have to say this because you know how people like to twist things.
00:08:13:14 - 00:08:30:10
Lisa Sonni
It's not that every man that says, let me know you got there safe is an abuser. We're talking about abusers that sound like that and that use that. I just want to know that you got there safely, but you get punished if you didn't let him know or you know, when you arrive, you're not texting or you're not responsive because you're I don't know about with friends,
00:08:30:15 - 00:08:49:21
Lisa Sonni
they're not going to tell you I'm surveilling you. They're going to frame it as like, I just want communication. I just, you know, I'm just jealous. That's why I don't want you leaving the house and going anywhere or having male friends or speaking to your male coworkers. Like, where where does it become a nice guy who's checking in on his partner and abuse?
00:08:49:21 - 00:08:51:03
Lisa Sonni
It's really hard to tell.
00:08:51:07 - 00:09:10:06
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
It is. But you know what? We have to really support our clients and understanding his patterns of behavior, right? if you start to see a pattern where someone is angry with you because you forgot to text them one time, or and by the way, if you see a pattern of them over texting you, what does that look like?
00:09:10:06 - 00:09:31:11
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Right? it goes back to somatic experiencing. What are you feeling in your body? Because for God's sakes, your intuition knows when something doesn't feel right. And is this person truly concerned about you or are they more angry with you because you haven't responded? And that's that's a big difference. That's a power differential. That's what that is. That's a red flag. Right?
00:09:31:16 - 00:09:49:09
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. Like if he was if you messaged late, let's say just to keep going on that example and he's like, oh, I'm so glad you're safe. Okay. Or you were supposed to message me when you got there, why didn't you? You got to look for when the request is actually a rule. But what happens when the request is not followed?
00:09:49:13 - 00:09:50:22
Lisa Sonni
Now you controlled.
00:09:50:22 - 00:10:15:09
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
That is a really great way to put it. When the request has now become a rule. And that's the slow diminishing of our ability to have agency. Because if the request often becomes a rule and over it's a pattern over and over again, we continue to accept that rule. The rule now gets bigger and bigger and bigger, and we get smaller and smaller and smaller.
00:10:15:09 - 00:10:36:16
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
And that's exactly the goal of the person. And that's right. Like, do you feel like some of our, the people that we work with are failing to see and it's not their fault. They've been coerced into this narrative, but they're failing to see that there has been a huge shift between what is a request and what is a rule,
00:10:36:22 - 00:10:57:09
Lisa Sonni
When I think of things like even, your location, it seems normal-ish. And I say ish because my actual belief is that if you think that's normal in your relationship, cool. And if somebody else thinks it's not cool, two people have to agree to those things with consent and so, like, I don't share my location with my partner, though
00:10:57:09 - 00:11:17:07
Lisa Sonni
I don't go a lot of places. But he wouldn't ask. But maybe there would be a context where it makes sense. I don't know personally when that would be. But again, if everyone's truly agreeing to it. But the problem is, is you hear some healthy relationship couples say it's normal and then an abuser sees that and goes, it's normal to do that.
00:11:17:07 - 00:11:37:18
Lisa Sonni
So you're being weird for not wanting to share your location with me or you're cheating on me. Why don't you want to share your location? What are you up to? And they flip it on you. It's not a request anymore. It now has become some kind of punishment. And they do all these things with phones and cars and AirTags and Google accounts and family plans, all kinds of things.
00:11:37:19 - 00:12:00:06
Lisa Sonni
I mentioned Google accounts. My ex went into my Google account on my Gmail and found how to track my location so he didn't have my location, but he used my own computer, my Gmail was attached to the phone and the computer and found where I had been. And Google is very specific. I had no idea, but I wasn't doing anything like I was literally at a park right?
00:12:00:07 - 00:12:00:15
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Right.
00:12:00:18 - 00:12:02:06
Lisa Sonni
He was beside himself accusing me.
00:12:02:09 - 00:12:25:09
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Yeah. No, that's a quite a remarkable. I did not know that Google could do that. So now this is wonderful for people to learn this. It's so I don't what I was a year post to Boris and I couldn't figure out how my ex always knew where I was, and he was an admin on my computer, so I had dropped coffee on my computer well, a little bit before I had left and he had given me a new keyboard
00:12:25:09 - 00:12:41:11
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
and of course I had to put in my passcode. He had a passcode watcher. He saw what I put in as my passcode. I never changed it. And so like, this is like, you know, everybody needs to get a new computer, change all their passcodes. It's like something you have to do. You can't have the same phone because you can drop an app.
00:12:41:11 - 00:13:04:06
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
When I walk by you, I can drop an app on your open phone. You don't know that app is there. And I can see every text, everything that you are doing. but the reality is, is that a year after my divorce, my ex was an admin on my computer, like, it was called remote admin. And so how when I, when I the day the divorce was final, he said, have a great time in the Bahamas.
00:13:04:06 - 00:13:27:00
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Now my graduate, my daughter who was hardly talking to me, I had convinced her to take her to the Bahamas for her high school graduation. Hugely like, by the way, I didn't have the money and also like, like expensive gift. I would never in a normal world would have never done something like that. But she wasn't talking to me, and I wanted to bring her someplace nice for positive memories.
00:13:27:00 - 00:13:42:04
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
And believe me, it didn't go very well overall. But anyway. And at the divorce, as soon as it was finally, he's like, he looks at me and says, have fun in the Bahamas. I'm like, how does he know? How does he know? They know? So there's this Nova Scotia case that just came of like this woman who was dating a man for ten years.
00:13:42:04 - 00:13:46:14
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
They were partners for ten years. The block where you actually charge your iPhone,
00:13:46:17 - 00:13:47:06
Lisa Sonni
you
00:13:47:08 - 00:14:04:02
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
could put a camera in there. It was in their bedroom facing them. He was recording all of their sex. She found it on his computer? Yep. And then he got arrested. And he. I think he got. Maybe you can look it up. It's like Nova Scotia. It's not a big place. Three I think he got three months or something like that
00:14:04:02 - 00:14:22:09
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
and he's on probation. It's like everybody's like alarmed at what he received. But like people have to understand. So one day I was at my house visiting my house. So I didn't live there, but I would go on Fridays to see our dog and it was a day I would go with my ex was at work and I would just go and just be in my home like I kind of wanted to do it.
00:14:22:12 - 00:14:40:03
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
There's part of me probably that knew that he hated me being there. I knew that were cameras outside. Well, I went into the cabinet and took for Christmas mugs that my girlfriend had given me. Like four years before. I took all four Christmas mugs and I took them out of the house, and he had snapped a picture of me and sent it to my attorney that I was stealing.
00:14:40:08 - 00:15:02:09
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
He had pictures in my children's picture frame behind me across the hall, so people don't realize they're being tracked with technology all of the time. One time I had my son go get, when my daughter was kind of living with me. Later on, I said she doesn't have any of her stuffed animals, and I go get some of her personal items out of her room.
00:15:02:09 - 00:15:17:13
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
He was able to go to the house and stay there, sometimes in a calm way, with his dad, and he he fills up a black garbage bag, and it took a lot to get him to do it. And he starts dragging the black garbage bag across the loft and he hears a voice, put that bag down. Don't leave with that stuff.
00:15:17:13 - 00:15:28:12
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
It's his father coming through a camera. His father had been stalking them the whole time. People don't. We are being watched. Oh my God, so invasive, so invasive. You know what I
00:15:28:12 - 00:15:51:18
Lisa Sonni
find? Yeah. So interesting. So you're describing all these little really sneaky ways, right? I mean, sometimes it's a doorbell camera, you know, that it's there, but sometimes it's a camera in a charger that you don't know about or a thermostat or, smoke detectors. I mean, I have seen some crazy things, and I'm sure you have to. And then you tell your friends or family, I feel like he's watching me. And people are like, Christine, you're crazy.
00:15:51:20 - 00:16:08:17
Lisa Sonni
Listen, this is happening every day. This is so much more prevalent than people think. And I think it's interesting because when you're in the relationship, even it can start like, oh, I'll help you with that. Give me your password and I'll log in and fix it for you. It's just so easy, right? Yeah. Just use my phone. Use my account.
00:16:08:22 - 00:16:28:19
Lisa Sonni
So easy. Put yourself on Find my Phone or, you know, whatever. Life 360. All these things that seem so normal and benevolent, right? Because he's taking care of you is helping you. But when those things happen, maybe that's the same man that when you split is going to be hiding cameras places because he was used to having access.
00:16:28:19 - 00:16:45:20
Lisa Sonni
Obviously you break up, you're like deleting the GPS locator. You're not sharing anymore. You, you know, take the doorbell camera off his account or whatever, but you don't know about the parts you don't know about it. It's really more common than people think. I don't know if there's I haven't looked up stats on it, but I hear about it often.
00:16:46:00 - 00:17:10:06
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Yeah, I don't know the stats on it, to be honest with you. I think because it's so by the way, always like there's always new stuff, there's always new ways. Like it used to just be a camera, right. And you could see the camera now they have hidden cameras and then they put hidden cameras in blocks like or in my case, my ex like my car was broken down and and not broken down, but I couldn't drive it far, so I left it in a commuter lot.
00:17:10:09 - 00:17:19:02
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
I go to the commuter lot. The car is fixed. The items that he fixed the car with are in the trunk of the car, are in the trunk of the car. How did he know my car was in that commuter lot?
00:17:19:04 - 00:17:19:20
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Oh yeah.
00:17:20:01 - 00:17:36:23
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. I remember taking my car to a mechanic once and I was like, can you just do a sweep and just figure out if there's anything on the car or in the car or anything like it was? It was it's challenging because you just don't know. And I know it seems crazy, right, to go have to admit to a complete stranger that maybe you're being followed or tracked.
00:17:37:04 - 00:17:51:09
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
It's right. Right. And as you could imagine, the narrative was from him. I fixed your mom's car. What are you talking about? I'm tracking her. I fixed her car. She doesn't have to pay money. He didn't want me to spend the money at the dealer to get it fixed. Right. So he was trying to prevent me from doing that.
00:17:51:09 - 00:18:02:12
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
I was wasting all of our family money. You know how it goes, right? So, you know. So. So he shows up at this random commuter lot and fixes my car, saves me $2,500. He's a good guy.
00:18:02:15 - 00:18:09:18
Lisa Sonni
And we're all focused on what a good man he is and not asking. But how did he know where the car was? Like, you can't.
00:18:09:21 - 00:18:13:09
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Let drove by it. Don't you know? At least like he drove by it? He saw it
00:18:13:11 - 00:18:33:21
Lisa Sonni
with all the tools and prepared with time. Like, come on. Yeah. Come on. Yeah. That's crazy. I just feel like there's something very, uniquely cruel about living in a house where technology makes the environment feel like it belongs to your abuser, whether you're in the relationship or out. It's like that feeling of they're all around you. It's really creepy.
00:18:34:00 - 00:18:53:04
Lisa Sonni
They can get into your computers. I have clients that are afraid to even be on, like zoom calls and afraid that he's got something on the computer where he can see everything going on. That's terrifying. Also, as a coach, not a great feeling in the insofar as, you know, if they're hearing the sessions, you have no privacy. They have that.
00:18:53:04 - 00:19:10:00
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Yeah, yeah, I know it's one of the questions I ask. Right. Like, do you feel safe in your environment because one woman just this week I got on the call with her and I said, so is there any way he could be tracking you right now while we're on this call? And she said, well, I you know, he does still have access to the Wi-Fi.
00:19:10:01 - 00:19:28:02
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
You said your Wi-Fi is not safe. Honey, you got to go outside. Come on. You know what I mean? Like like. So this is the thing, right? Like, we assume that just because they're out of the home, too, by the way, in this case, he had left. Just because he's out of the home doesn't mean he's still. And I think to your words, you said, I'm trying to remember exactly how you said it because you said it so well.
00:19:28:02 - 00:19:36:10
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
It's like you're not safe in your own home like you don't. You don't have like, somebody else has ownership over you in the home. Right. They're omnipresent.
00:19:36:13 - 00:19:54:20
Lisa Sonni
Yes. And then how do you ever settle your nervous system in that? I think the answer is you don't really. Right. But you don't feel safe. So it's these sweeps of technology. I'm sure it's expensive. So that's also a factor in being able to get yourself out of a situation like that where you're not being surveilled post separation.
00:19:54:20 - 00:20:12:18
Lisa Sonni
But I think also in the relationship, there's this idea of privacy and to the point I was making earlier, everybody's going to have a different view. I mean, even when you look at something as basic as do you share your phone password with your partner, some people are adamant that you should not do that, and some people are adamant that you should.
00:20:12:21 - 00:20:32:12
Lisa Sonni
Whatever people agree to not get coerced into, but agree to. I'm a I'm of the mindset for my own relationship, not other people's. I'm down to share my password, but I think that also to me doesn't mean that you can sneak into my phone in the middle of the night when I'm sleeping to go through my phone. It just means you have the password.
00:20:32:13 - 00:20:49:01
Lisa Sonni
That's transparency in and of itself. I still have an expectation that if you wanted to look at it, he would say it right. I would never and I wouldn't go through his phone. But we have each other's passwords. That's normal for us. But I also know a lot of survivors that are like, absolutely not. And I always wondered at first years ago, like, why?
00:20:49:01 - 00:21:10:02
Lisa Sonni
What's the big deal? Well, when you've had your privacy so invaded by a perpetrator of abuse, not an ounce of privacy and going through your phone, making up problems or sometimes even planting things. I know a guy that downloaded dating apps on his wife's phone, created dating profiles so that he could be mad at her for being online dating when she wasn't.
00:21:10:03 - 00:21:13:10
Lisa Sonni
It was crazy. It is crazy.
00:21:13:10 - 00:21:36:09
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
That's actually. Wow. That's I mean so that's so malevolent. Think the opposite of being of acting like you're loving and kind, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I think it points to like this idea though. I also want to just be clear, like, I don't think sweeps can also get everything that's the problem. I've heard that, I've had victims who they've had their whole radio compartment taken apart.
00:21:36:10 - 00:21:54:18
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
So, like, literally behind the radio was the tracking device, like, who would what sweep would find that? You know what I mean? Right. So there's just I think it's always and when, when victims tell me that they've moved out, that's a very sad thing because most of my, most of the patients I see, they're not living in the family home anymore.
00:21:54:20 - 00:22:04:19
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
But it's also a blessing because if you have a new space, you know it's safe versus if you have an old space you have. No, I don't know how you are sure that it's safe.
00:22:05:00 - 00:22:05:12
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Yeah.
00:22:05:12 - 00:22:28:01
Lisa Sonni
The idea that you know survivors just want safety and peace. You know you're you're attempting to leave or you've left to get more peace and live your abuse free life as we all deserve. And then you're still having to be tracked or financially abused, financially monitored, controlled in a different way. People talk about being abused in the relationship, but then you leave, right?
00:22:28:01 - 00:22:35:13
Lisa Sonni
Just leave him. But you leave him and you're just being abused. And in some ways, in a different way. It just changes the scope. it does.
00:22:35:16 - 00:22:54:13
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
And that's what we know about coercive control, right? It intensifies post separation. A lot of people like say there's coercive control and post separation. It's like, no, no, no, of course of control is the intensifying into post separation. And it doesn't get easier. And then we're asking victims all the time, as you and I know, to say, you know, well, can you escape.
00:22:54:19 - 00:23:25:01
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
And the reality is some people, they can't. Sometimes it feels safer to stay right now. And that's okay. That's okay. Which means you're being tracked, which means everything's being monitored, which means you have no, like, no agency or very little agency in your life. But if we can strategize around the abuser and kind of alleviate their, their, their have distemper like the like, like how do we alleviate their ability to be so, need to control we make we calm them.
00:23:25:04 - 00:23:49:15
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
And that is not that is not subjugation. That is not I'm acquiescing. That is strategy. Now, if we can shift it from I'm acquiescing and this feels wrong and I'm subjugated, and why do I have to distemper him? Why can't I just be myself to. Oh, this is all strategy. This is all strategy, right? Then we de-escalate things and make our lives just a little bit safer, which is challenging.
00:23:49:20 - 00:23:57:09
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
I did not do that until until after I left. I said, oh, this is how this works. But during it I, I realized I was not, I was feisty.
00:23:57:12 - 00:24:05:16
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, I was feisty too actually. As it turns out, when I look back it's not always the safest thing. I'm not suggesting people be feisty. No I don't think I, I think
00:24:05:18 - 00:24:15:00
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
I think we're suggesting being feisty can be, can actually be problematic. Right. And that being actually strategic is vital.
00:24:15:05 - 00:24:16:13
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Yeah. Yes.
00:24:16:15 - 00:24:37:01
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. It takes a lot of a lot of strategy. First you have to see through it of course, which is definitely the hard part when you look at some of the things that these these abusers do, like I think jealousy is a really interesting one because jealousy is like he's just insecure. He's just jealous. How do you see that being used sometimes to justify surveillance of their partner when they're still in the relationship?
00:24:37:03 - 00:24:59:07
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Yeah. I mean, isn't it like, I love you so much and I just don't want anyone else to have you because you're my soulmate, right? And, you know, for your listeners, I think it's important to understand that the accusation is very typically the confession. And so remember that if you're abusers accusing you of this, it's not your job to explain your or to j justify, argue, defend or explain yourself.
00:24:59:13 - 00:25:16:12
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
But can you calm this person down? Right. But it is a justification for surveillance. And so, you know, could you say like so there's two ways. One way is like, you know, who are you to say you're like, who are you? Like, I'm not cheating on you. And then that only, frankly, can escalate if you're with that person.
00:25:16:17 - 00:25:42:13
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Or can you say, I understand you love me and I understand you care. I promise I'm not cheating. And next time I go out, sure, I'll let you know where I am. Is that acquiescing or is that strategy you have to kind of just consider because, you know, one of the things we don't talk about often enough is the trajectory of this is very often, you know, if I think the savviest of abusers. Listen, now, if I, if I physically assault this person, I'm going to be exposed.
00:25:42:16 - 00:26:00:18
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
But there are many, many abusers who don't have the ability to regulate themselves long enough. And they're like a percolating coffee pot. And when they explode, they become violent. And so how do we keep this De-escalated keep you safe in the most unsafe experience? It's just awful what we do. But we do
00:26:00:18 - 00:26:21:16
Lisa Sonni
it. We do. You're giving such a good message, though, about for people who are not ready to leave, whether that's emotionally, financially, just fear you need planning all the things that we do to get ourselves out. I speak to so many women who kind of feel like they're being manipulative or lying. You know, I just need to be honest and tell him that I'm planning to leave.
00:26:21:19 - 00:26:40:06
Lisa Sonni
That's crazy, I understand it, I understand the desire. Because you're a good person, you're an honest person, and you value that. But in a situation like this, when you just, you know, you don't want to be manipulative, you don't want to stoop to his level. It's not manipulation, it's strategy. I really want to, like harp on that point that you made.
00:26:40:06 - 00:26:57:03
Lisa Sonni
This is what we do to get ourselves out. And sort of it might seem like you're complying, but if it's part of your strategy to get yourself out and if you feel like is it a strategy or is it manipulation, I think a good check is what is your internal intention? Are you trying to, like, pull one over on him, or
00:26:57:03 - 00:27:17:09
Lisa Sonni
are you trying to control someone? Or are you just trying to assert your own autonomy? Is it safe? What if you said, I want to leave you? What would happen? He would freak out, get mad, get violent, beg not let you is the point. Then what choice do you have if you're not free? I think it just speaks to the fact that you're being controlled. In fact.
00:27:17:13 - 00:27:23:19
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
100% now. 100%. If you have to strategize something, you're not living in a safe zone.
00:27:23:21 - 00:27:45:18
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, like that's right. The proof is right there, right? Even, like not being free to spend money. Not because you should be able to split assets, you should be able to go to CVS and not have to bring home a receipt. You know, because I know, it used to be a really popular piece of advice that I learned, at least in the United States, that banks are very transparent where they didn't used to be.
00:27:45:18 - 00:28:06:10
Lisa Sonni
So, for example, depending on your bank, if you go to CVS, you can ask for cash back and it'll show up as a CVS charge. But some banks will actually say $22 spent in store and $40 in cash. And it'll say it right on the bank statement. I don't even need that seat. So women who were able to do that amount of money away.
00:28:06:10 - 00:28:23:12
Lisa Sonni
Now, if he's monitoring you using digital banking or whatever, he'll see. So now that's not an option anymore. Not that $40 is that helpful. But if you're part of a long term strategy plan, trying to like squirrel away a little bit of money, if he's monitoring you, you can't even do that 100%.
00:28:23:12 - 00:28:38:18
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
No, it's a really good point. I did not know that. I didn't know the banks were doing. That's not surprising to me. I think that's the thing is that we are all behind what tech is able to do. And abusers. And I had a I have like quite a few patients who will say, oh, he's not good at technology.
00:28:38:18 - 00:28:57:14
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
I'm like, that's bullshit. They're all good at technology. They are all good at it. And they pretend they're not. Maybe, or just know that they are so far ahead of the curve. They know exactly what the new new tech thing that's coming out. They know how to use it. And, you know, we started off the conversation talking about benevolent, right.
00:28:57:14 - 00:29:13:16
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Like and I think that relates to a lot of what you talk about, Lisa, is this trauma bonding. Because when somebody came to us and they seem like they're caring for us, and let's just talk about childhood wounds for a moment. And the fact that maybe in your own childhood, you didn't have your needs met, you weren't protected in some way.
00:29:13:16 - 00:29:40:02
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
So now you have this person in your life who's looking out for you, but are they taking away your autonomy in life? Are they taking away your ability to, you know, so it may feel benevolent, but ask yourself, is there a pattern of them trying to control me? And in the way to like, assert that or to to affirm that in your mind is to ask the question, is there equality in this relationship dynamic?
00:29:40:06 - 00:29:56:18
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Do I have a voice? Am I able to express myself if I disagree? And I, I think tonight, you know, I'm going out with my girlfriends and I really don't want to get five texts tonight while I'm out. I just want to be able to go and have a good time. And when I come home, I'll give you a kiss on the cheek,
00:29:56:21 - 00:30:07:18
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
like, how do you create the parameters and if you can't? Yeah. This is a problem. It's not fun. It's not benevolent. It's actually it's actually a little shade in benevolence, right?
00:30:07:21 - 00:30:08:06
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Yeah.
00:30:08:09 - 00:30:30:03
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. I think what needs to be pointed out is these, these benevolent abusers. I love that name for them. They believe that it is benevolence. They believe it. So don't try to convince them like, oh, this is benevolent abuse or you're just acting like a good guy, but you're really not. They genuinely believe it for the most part, and it doesn't make them delusional clinically not delusional at all.
00:30:30:03 - 00:30:50:11
Lisa Sonni
They know exactly what they're doing. They know right from wrong. Because think about it. I never suggest to actually do this. I'm being sarcastic openly, but flip it. Surveil him, see how he likes it, right? Suddenly that becomes control and surveillance, but when he's doing it, he's just being a good guy. And I'm sure he'll say it's different, which has to do with gender, which has to do with misogyny and entitlement.
00:30:50:15 - 00:30:53:14
Lisa Sonni
It all kind of comes back full, full circle.
00:30:53:16 - 00:31:20:13
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
yeah. No, totally. I agree with that. And I would say the worst of offenders actually do believe they're lies. They do believe they're only being protective. And that's when it gets very scary because if they truly believe it, what are they willing to do to prove themselves. Right. So, my experience has been with abusive individuals. Is that over time, the healthiest thing for them to do is to believe their own lies, is to truly believe them.
00:31:20:16 - 00:31:36:06
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
To believe that you actually cheated, to believe that you can't be trusted when you go out on Saturday night to truly believe that. And if they believe that, yeah, like, let's get you an escape route. Like always get you an escape route. But now I'm worried about your physical safety on top of your psychological safety.
00:31:36:10 - 00:31:52:07
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. For those that don't know, to coercive control is the number one predictor of lethality. So it's really important for people to understand that a man that does this is a man that could and might certainly take your life. That's a huge risk. 100%.
00:31:52:07 - 00:32:11:22
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
And I think what I would love for the world to recognize, and I do talk about this in my Ted talks, is the idea that coercive control, like, is the underpinning of all abuse. It is, you know, people don't abuse you to just like, you might get a punch in the face by the guy at the bar. He's angry. he didn't like that's not a pattern of behavior.
00:32:12:03 - 00:32:35:20
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
But everybody who's experiencing these relationship dynamics is experiencing coercion and control. And it just depends, again, how far is the abuser willing to control you? Right. What are they willing to do? I mean, we had so many femicides familicides. It's just the femicides. It's it's they're willing some people are willing to do almost anything or willing to throw everything away because they can't control you.
00:32:35:21 - 00:32:56:21
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, control means the world to them. And that's why I feel like the advice that people give. Right. Just change your passwords, okay? I'm not saying don't change your passwords, but hear me out. First of all, it's the same as just leave. Right. And I think your expertise can be particularly valuable here. The mistake that people make is saying that like delete the app, turn off the notification, change all your passwords.
00:32:57:00 - 00:33:16:19
Lisa Sonni
Okay, so the man who is accustomed to having access and being able to track and surveil you, suddenly in the blink of an eye loses everything. It alerts everything to maybe you being about to leave them, or to you doing something differently. They you never know. So obviously if you're going to do that, be out and be safe.
00:33:16:23 - 00:33:29:22
Lisa Sonni
Don't do it when you're still in the relationship. But I think evidence can even disappear when accounts start getting changed that if he gets wind of it, you know what? What can really happen? It's God only knows. Speculate a little bit. But what have you seen?
00:33:29:23 - 00:33:48:07
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Yeah. No, I just actually last night was on a call with a mom. And this is the situation. He is like, they're separated. There's a restraining order. They have a transition spot and everything for the child. And he wants her to say, I love you all the time, and I miss you. That's what he wants her to say.
00:33:48:11 - 00:34:07:14
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
And she's afraid not to say it reasonably so. Because if she doesn't say it, is he going to show up at her door? And I think he's very capable of doing that. He is not a regulated like he is. Not that, you know, the lawyer who shows up in court, he's like a guy who has expressed depression, has expressed feeling isolated, and he hates the government.
00:34:07:18 - 00:34:26:12
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
And, you know, he's, would prefer to live in a tent someplace. So I feel like she's at a very high risk. And so how do we slowly pull her away from needing to interact from him as much? He doesn't use OFW. He calls her all the time. He's like, where were you? What were you doing?
00:34:26:12 - 00:34:50:17
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Etc. and so I helped her with some phrasing around creating a boundary around one of his attempts to interact with her. Not all 21 we start slowly with behavior modification, slowly with it, and and test the waters and move slowly and in. Really what she needs is she lives alone. She shouldn't be living alone. She, you know, lives on a big estate.
00:34:50:17 - 00:35:10:11
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
So there's lots of farmland. And I mean, it's just like it's that she's she's like literally a sitting duck. And so she's moving, which is great. And that will be helpful. But he's dangerous. He's extremely. And she's forced to take her one and a half year old to see him. And he says in front of the one and a half year old, you know, if your mother had her way, she just blow my brains out.
00:35:10:14 - 00:35:20:04
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
I mean, this is a this is a dangerous, dangerous man, right? If he's willing to say that out loud, that that of course, escalates that the lethality. Right?
00:35:20:09 - 00:35:22:01
Lisa Sonni
So it really does.
00:35:22:01 - 00:35:25:13
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
But he wants her to say, I love you. After every call, he wants her to say I love you.
00:35:25:14 - 00:35:45:12
Lisa Sonni
Which there's such an entitlement to that. And I say delusion. I repeat, they're not delusional, but they're like Duluth, who, as the young ones say, it makes no sense. You want to hear I love you so you can tell yourself that she loves you, but you forced her to, so she doesn't. And in fact, she probably hates you or is afraid of you at best.
00:35:45:17 - 00:35:48:01
Lisa Sonni
But you make her say that it's creepy.
00:35:48:05 - 00:36:05:21
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
It's very creepy. And the piece to that is that, you know, if she doesn't say I love you, he's extremely irate and verbally abusive and so it feels safer. And then what would the police say? You know, if anybody knew she was saying, I love you to him, you know? Right. Like, why are you saying I love you to this guy?
00:36:05:21 - 00:36:21:00
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
He's got a restraining order. He's got people with it. So she did ask me at the end of the call, she said to me, can you just tell me, please? I'm not crazy. Can you please just tell me again? I'm not crazy. I'm like, you're not crazy. This is this is this is. You're not crazy, honey. This is the abuse.
00:36:21:00 - 00:36:25:01
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
She said maybe I'm making a big deal about this. I'm like, oh no no no this is a big deal.
00:36:25:06 - 00:36:26:13
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Yeah. So yeah
00:36:26:15 - 00:36:51:11
Lisa Sonni
I love that, that the gaslighting of like it's not that big or you just sort of aren't sure you're constantly like losing grip with reality. But that's what it's like when you are in a marriage or relationship with somebody who is really covert or they don't even have to be that covert, obviously. But when you're with somebody who's abusive and has, over time, conditioned you to not see how bad things are coupled with their entitlement and grandiosity and all these things, whether they're a narcissist or not.
00:36:51:12 - 00:37:11:05
Lisa Sonni
Because I'm with you on like, the labels don't actually do that much to help when it comes to understanding them or diagnosing them. All that matters is how you feel and how you've been impacted, and that you don't have the same autonomy that you ever did. So much of this is just rooted in the entitlement of these abusive men to have you and control you.
00:37:11:05 - 00:37:15:23
Lisa Sonni
All of these behaviors circles right back to entitlement 100%.
00:37:16:02 - 00:37:42:14
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Yeah, yeah. And so that is back to your beginning conversation about patriarchy and misogynistic views that are created in our little boys and little girls who are growing up in a world thinking that these behaviors are okay, right? Instead of being protected. I mean, when you think about an unprotected class, of course it's girls. But how about these little boys who are shamed for having an emotion, who are shamed for not like being aggressive and not winning the ball game or whatever?
00:37:42:16 - 00:37:58:04
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Like all of that is creating a need. Well, if I if I can't actually be loved for who I am, I've got to be something else. And the way to do that is to protect my ego. And if I protect my ego, I'll feel safer. And that's sometimes is control.
00:37:58:06 - 00:38:20:00
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. You're so right. It's we need to all be doing a better job on that. I think, you know, it's 2026 right now. We've we've really normalized such an incredible amount of access in relationships. Technology makes it so easy to do that. And I think most people are not using that abusively on both sides. Nobody's using that as abusively in the in a in a common way.
00:38:20:00 - 00:38:43:01
Lisa Sonni
However, an abuser will use what seems normal in a healthy relationship and kind of make that access feel a lot more like ownership. But you might not notice. And in any relationship you are allowed to have privacy and you're allowed to change your mind. You're allowed to not have somebody track your location and have privacy in your own home, whether you're in or out of the relationship, you're allowed to.
00:38:43:06 - 00:38:52:19
Lisa Sonni
So if you are exercising those freedoms and it's being made to feel like you are, you know, committing a sin, you are probably being coercively controlled.
00:38:52:19 - 00:38:53:09
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Yeah,
00:38:53:11 - 00:38:57:00
Lisa Sonni
for sure. Thank you so much for being here. Where can people find you?
00:38:57:04 - 00:39:21:05
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Thank you. Yes, thank you for having me. It's always an engaging, wonderful conversation. Sadly, sadly, it's a conversation we need to have, at Coercive Control Consulting. And I train professionals and also have a protective parenting program where I give them the tools and the strategies they need to parent these children who are being harmed actively by a course of controller, predatory parent.
00:39:21:09 - 00:39:42:13
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
And, I would love to help more people. Because I think one of the things that we forget is that, you know, my professional training is for anybody doing this work, and it's 12 CEs for therapists, but also that protective parents are their children's greatest healers. And we can do this work. We can. It's just a matter of different parenting.
00:39:42:15 - 00:39:47:03
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
It's it's a it's you never expected to be parenting a child who's actively being abused.
00:39:47:08 - 00:39:51:15
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, but it's so true. Thank you so much for being here and all the work that you do.
00:39:51:20 - 00:39:54:18
Dr. Christine Cocchiola
Thank you so much, Lisa. Have a wonderful day.
00:39:54:20 - 00:40:04:06
Lisa Sonni
If this episode gave you clarity. Share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember, you're stronger than before.
00:40:04:08 - 00:40:08:11
Music
Stronger than before.