Coercive Control: When You’re “Allowed” to Choose, But Pay for It | Lindsay Stoker | S5E04

Coercive Control: When You’re “Allowed” to Choose, But Pay for It | Lindsay Stoker If you’ve ever been “allowed” to do something, then paid for it with pressure, silence, tracking, or fear, this episode names that pattern. Lisa Sonni sits down with Lindsay Stoker, a 20-year stenographic court reporter and author of the forthcoming book The Control Code, to explain how coercive control hides behind permission, concern, and behavior that looks deniable from the outside.

They unpack how control is built in tiny increments—constant texting, stonewalling, isolation, location tracking, and “boundaries” used to punish—until you start self-policing to stay safe. Lindsay frames early love bombing as territory acquisition and control as an engine that extracts compliance at the lowest cost. The key question is not what you were technically allowed to do, but what happened when you pushed back. Recognizing the pattern early matters, because fear itself is part of the abuse—and coercive control is strongly tied to lethality.

Join Lisa Sonni & Dr. Peter Salerno in Boston, MA November 13-15, 2026 here: https://lisasonni.com/unbreakable-and-irreplaceable/

Transcript

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00:00:00:00 - 00:00:08:17
Music


00:00:08:19 - 00:00:17:20
Lisa Sonni
This is Real Talk With Lisa Sonni: Relationships Uncensored, the podcast they don't want you listening to.

00:00:17:22 - 00:00:37:15
Lisa Sonni
One of the most insane topics around domestic violence and abuse is coercive control, and I think that it's what people are not always picturing. I think we hear control and we think he tells you you can't go somewhere, you can't wear your hair a certain way. He who you can be friends with. But coercive control paints a very different picture.

00:00:37:15 - 00:00:59:14
Lisa Sonni
It is built around plausible deniability, and it's built around. I didn't actually do anything to control you. It sort of can include indirect threats and just show up in so many covert and insidious ways. It's something that I experienced, and I used to think that I had never experienced control, despite recognizing that I had been in an abusive relationship.

00:00:59:17 - 00:01:16:00
Lisa Sonni
You know, it's a situation where you can wear what you want and you can have friends, but you just kind of know that you're going to upset the other person. Now, my guest today is Lindsay Stoker, and I want to actually let you introduce yourself because you have a really cool background, actually. And what seems to have brought you into this topic.

00:01:16:00 - 00:01:17:09
Lisa Sonni
So why don't I turn it over to you?

00:01:17:15 - 00:01:54:23
Lindsay Stoker
Thank you. Yes. My name is Lindsay Stoker. So I'm an author of my forthcoming book. It's called The Control Code. I'm still looking, for a publisher for it. And I'm The Control Code on TikTok and Instagram, and I'm uploading all of my material to YouTube. Facebook. And I'm on Substack, and, I have been a stenographic court reporter for 20 years, taking down, verbatim testimony in, kind of a pressure cooker speech environment, where I, you just see the mechanics of control, like, I hear it, and then I read it on the page for 20 years, and I noticed a lot of patterns.

00:01:54:23 - 00:02:15:10
Lindsay Stoker
And then, I experienced that in my personal life and my relationship for 20 years. And, that's, like, all of that experience is what, was the basis, from which I wrote my book and, like, hearing in the support groups I was in, you know, what survivors had to say, and I do. I, see things a little bit differently.

00:02:15:12 - 00:02:19:14
Lindsay Stoker
But, yeah, I'm so passionate about, this topic. I'm so excited to be here.

00:02:19:19 - 00:02:44:07
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. Thank you for being here. Because I know we need more voices in this, talking about it like there's. We're not loud enough. We're not saying it enough. We need more people to know exactly what this is. And I know something that I experience. And I go back to sort of the reason that I didn't recognize that this was control was because my abuser let let me, right?...even look at the language I use, let me go wherever I want it.

00:02:44:07 - 00:03:00:09
Lisa Sonni
I could do what I wanted, where would I want it, spend what I wanted? Like in what world is that control? And it's funny, I always hear like a man's voice in my head being like, see, you're making it up, right? I think it's important for people to hear how this can show up in relationships. And this is just my little story.

00:03:00:09 - 00:03:19:02
Lisa Sonni
But he let me go to dinner with friends out, whatever. But when I did, he would call me or text me 50 times, and if I missed the call, it was always like, oh my God, you can't even give me two seconds. Oh my God, you're so focused on your friends, your life, you're selfish. I can't believe you couldn't even do me this one

00:03:19:02 - 00:03:36:08
Lisa Sonni
solid and answer a quick message, or do me one thing. And it was like, oh my God. So I started keeping my phone on the table face up. So that I could see if a text message came through. And I was always looking down and making sure, checking to see if he was leading me for whatever. And I say needing me.

00:03:36:14 - 00:03:54:03
Lisa Sonni
Really like meeting me for what? Right or right? If I would wear something he didn't like, he would just make fun of me for it. After I was already wearing it out of the house, he would always do something that made me know that he didn't like what I was doing, but he would never say, you can't do that.

00:03:54:03 - 00:04:06:09
Lisa Sonni
So it was always like, you're allowed to do whatever you want. What are you talking about? And I was, but there was a consequence. And I think that's kind of a perfect example, even though there's many of what coercive control it's I just learned.

00:04:06:13 - 00:04:27:17
Lindsay Stoker
Yes, and I relate. Oh my gosh, do I relate to what you just said? And not only that, there's a double standard. He was allowed to do whatever he wanted. And so you look at the symmetry and it's so important for us all to be talking because you might explain something one way I explain something another, you know, somebody else to explain it.

00:04:27:17 - 00:04:54:10
Lindsay Stoker
And like the more that like we are giving our translation, you know, just like there's so many languages, like the more of us that are speaking in our language of like, this is how control operates. The more people are like that person's speech. My language, you know, and yeah, so when I left my abusive relationship, I spent a lot of time, just thinking about what I had learned from the last 20 years and what I had observed and something that I learned.

00:04:54:13 - 00:05:26:19
Lindsay Stoker
And I'm going to write a subset piece on it is, I think that control is a very, rational economic engine. And I really like the concept of economics because it's a predictor of, human interactions, you know, like what... people do in certain circumstances. And something that really bothers me is that, you see in the news, like somebody who showed controlling behaviors the whole time, like what you experienced with your partner, and then, oh, he kills his wife and kids,

00:05:26:19 - 00:05:47:08
Lindsay Stoker
and then the press frames it in is, oh, he just lost control. Like, oh, it was it was just a terrifying and, you know, a horrible, tragic incident. They don't even seem to say terrifying. It was a tragic incident. They frame it as he just, you know, lost it when it's a rational economic engine because it runs on entitlement

00:05:47:08 - 00:06:09:15
Lindsay Stoker
like we know that from Lundy Bancroft. It runs on, “I'm entitled to your labor. I'm entitled to your compliance,” you know, like, “You answering to me like that.” I'm entitled to your body. I mean, you know, to sex, I mean, to a clean house, to me on the page, everything for the least. And in terms of the least is, exposure is expensive.

00:06:09:20 - 00:06:35:07
Lindsay Stoker
So that's why he wants to. Like you said, he wants to frame it in terms of plausible deniability. So, you know, he can say, you know, my crazy, partner is saying I'm controlling and all of this. Or when you leave the relationship and you say, I was severely abused, he can point to his friends and family and supporters, you know, who are all laughing at you? Because what if he never told you not to do those things? But like you said, it's it's the threat not to.

00:06:35:10 - 00:06:56:03
Lindsay Stoker
And it's the reason why we see lethality. It's just that it's so dangerous to leave a relationship because when they lose that labor that, you know, everything that they had gotten in the relationship that they were getting for so cheaply, you know, they're not interested in the relationship. They're not doing the emotional work. They're getting it for cheap with control.

00:06:56:06 - 00:07:17:11
Lindsay Stoker
Now, they will use expensive visual methods to get you back. You know? Okay, okay, fine. I'll pay the price of the relationship. I'll make it better. I'll be a good man. We'll go to therapy. You know, it's bullshit. They just. They want your subsidy back. You know, they want your labor back. And they will always try to get the most for the least.

00:07:17:11 - 00:07:40:20
Lindsay Stoker
That is the most plausibly deniable. And, you know, and so it's like whenever women find themselves in that experience, like you just said, you know, that feeling like in your nervous system where you're always on edge, it's hell. It's like, I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. Yeah. That constant fear that is abuse like that in and of itself is abuse

00:07:40:23 - 00:08:11:11
Lindsay Stoker
and, you know, just weak. And in fact, it's like we are now starting to learn that it is the most dangerous form of abuse that it precedes. Intimate partner homicide at almost like almost every single instance of intimate partner homicide, there was a pattern of control running the entire time. that you yourself don't notice because they pay they will pay full price for the relationship in the beginning because they know that they're going to extract your labor, you know.

00:08:11:11 - 00:08:34:05
Lindsay Stoker
So it's like we talk about the love bombing. I talk I talk about it something different in my framework. I call it territory acquisition because I mean it like everybody like jokes. Like I love being loved bombed and like, love bombing. Like. Sounds like it sounds like, you know, your New Year's Eve Times Square. You know, the confetti. I love home sounds fun. You know, like a bath bomb or something like that.

00:08:34:05 - 00:08:58:18
Lindsay Stoker
It's like, I don't like that term because it allows for the joke to say, I want to be love bomb. Like, that sounds kind of awesome, you know, to some people. But it's not. It's territory acquisition. Because like your brain, if we think about your brain as territory and not like another army, wants to gain access to it in terms of control, they're going to do everything.

00:08:58:22 - 00:09:25:10
Lindsay Stoker
You think about warfare. They're going to learn everything about you. They're going to, you know, what are your weaknesses? What what childhood traumas do you have? You know, how can I give you all of these gifts and all of you know, this stuff? So I show I can extract everything later, and you're in your head thinking, maybe if I do these things, we can just get back to the beginning, Because what you wanted the whole time with that mutuality that existed in the beginning.

00:09:25:12 - 00:09:38:21
Lindsay Stoker
But that was they don't want mutuality. they want it, you know, to be, I'm losing the word. Not asynchronous, is it? Yeah. It's like they want to be over you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they want to be hierarchical hierarchies.

00:09:38:21 - 00:09:40:00
Lisa Sonni
Yeah.

00:09:40:01 - 00:10:06:20
Lindsay Stoker
Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Asymmetrical. Yeah. You know. Yeah. They they want the hierarchy. Yeah a normal relationship implies a give and take that, you know it's not always like perfect 55th. You know some day you're picking up their slack and then they're helping you. But it's it's a constant negotiation. And but you're helping each other along the way. that is too costly because that means they have to listen to your feelings.

00:10:06:20 - 00:10:12:15
Lindsay Stoker
They have to chip in. They have to they don't want all that Yeah, they want it to be a hierarchy.

00:10:12:20 - 00:10:34:02
Lisa Sonni
Just I see it as people that are narcissistic, obviously they see themselves as very grandiose. There's a lot of superiority. And I think that gives them the entitlement to being above you. And to that hierarchy. They feel that they get to treat you that way and they get to have access to you. You even look at the ridiculous example of, I'm out to dinner and he's blowing up my phone.

00:10:34:04 - 00:10:51:08
Lisa Sonni
He is entitled to me even when my attention is somewhere else. And in theory should be. If I'm out with friends, my attention should be on the people with me, as when he's out, his attention should be on what he's doing. And of course, you pointed out this double standard. If he were out and I called him, my phone died,

00:10:51:08 - 00:11:10:15
Lisa Sonni
I couldn't it was loud. What do you expect? I'm out. Why do you need me in the first place? Figure it out yourself. There's always this sort of dismissiveness so that that standard isn't in a relationship. We both have to be available for each other at every second of the day. It's you need to be available to me, and I will not reciprocate that.

00:11:10:17 - 00:11:13:00
Lisa Sonni
You'll never see that go right both ways.

00:11:13:00 - 00:11:36:02
Lindsay Stoker
and I think that's like that is it's such a tell. When like do you like, when you just kind of think about the relationship and it's like if you were to impose on them what they impose on you that that is a tell in and of itself that it's a hierarchy, and that it's, it's dangerous because it's, yeah, it's the entitlement mindset.

00:11:36:02 - 00:12:10:11
Lindsay Stoker
And you always think, like, I always thought, in my situation too, because people see the world through the lens in which they operate. And if you just want something, kind and mutual and loving and all of those things, you just think you make all of these excuses for them. You know, they're just having a bad day. Or maybe if I was better at this and better at this, I'm better than at this. And that's actually a trap because they see that. They see that willingness in you, that love in you.

00:12:10:11 - 00:12:39:15
Lindsay Stoker
And then it's just a test of how far, you know they can extract from you, because it will it will never be like that mutual because they benefit too much from it. I mean, and that's why that's why I kind of think I think about it in terms of economics. It's total. Yeah. That makes I mean, it's something that I would never do because we have empathy and we have compassion and yeah, we don't want to make other people hurt

00:12:39:15 - 00:13:03:02
Lindsay Stoker
and, you know, to be oh checking like into, you know, dysregulated your nervous system. But they like they don't think in in terms of that. It's rational because why would they change it when they get so much. If they don't care if they don't have empathy for anything. And so it that's what you, you think about like the term narcissist and all of that.

00:13:03:02 - 00:13:19:08
Lindsay Stoker
And that's really what it gets to is just that foundational absence of empathy and how it's just the antithesis of entitlement. You can't have empathy when there's entitlement, you know, because. They don't

00:13:19:08 - 00:13:41:00
Lisa Sonni
see you as human. I feel like it requires a level of dehumanization in your partner, which can't help but notice, you know, I know, listen, women can be abusive, but being that the topic here is abusive men, I find the entitlement way greater in abusive men. And I find the control obviously the severity the the quality, the quantity.

00:13:41:00 - 00:14:03:18
Lisa Sonni
It's worse across the board. But coercive control, when it shows up, it's like he thinks that he can control every move you make. It's part of why I really love and hate, but love the phrase gender based violence, because it highlights why the abuse is happening in you're talking about the motivation. They are entitled to control you because you're a woman.

00:14:03:21 - 00:14:24:10
Lisa Sonni
There's so much misogyny baked into this. It's it's allowed me to really learn a lot more about where abusive ness even comes from. When you start looking at the patriarchy and religion and all these things, control is built into the model. If you put men as the leaders, then who are they leading? Their followers, those that are meant to be submitting and compliant to the leaders.

00:14:24:12 - 00:14:42:20
Lisa Sonni
And if you put women in that role, to me, it's a breeding ground for coercive control or just direct control. It becomes okay, the justification seems to be there or the denial of it. Right? Like I never told you that you couldn't. I never stopped you. I nobody held a held a weapon to your head, you know what I mean?

00:14:42:20 - 00:15:00:17
Lisa Sonni
Like you could have. I never said you couldn't have friends. And the thing is, with plausible deniability, like, typically he's not lying. He's right. He didn't say it, but it's sort of like, okay, let's talk about the indirect threats versus a direct threat. It's just indirect control. So you see it that way.

00:15:00:20 - 00:15:28:01
Lindsay Stoker
Yes, I totally do. And there are so many societal and like religious and just just sort of the attitudes that have been passed down for generations that I see, it plays a huge role in it. And I have a lot of people I may not actually not a lot. I've had a couple people, say, hey, you know, you need to say this in gender neutral terms because this happens to me too.

00:15:28:04 - 00:15:54:05
Lindsay Stoker
It is true. And it's horrible. I resist it because I, of course, and I've said a couple times, yes, this happens, both ways. But what I don't like about framing it gender neutrally is, I mean, first of all, I tell them like, this is my platform. If you don't like it you can go somewhere else... you know. Yeah, it's like, this is I'm putting my free time and my free labor into making content.

00:15:54:07 - 00:16:17:08
Lindsay Stoker
But I think it, it it it like gives like this, whitewashing across the board that it makes it seem like that it's, it's the same level and it's not in terms of the severity. And that is sort of abuse in and of itself. Like, this is what his supporters do in terms of the dynamic. Well, what did she do?

00:16:17:12 - 00:16:37:21
Lindsay Stoker
What did she do? And there's no such thing as a perfect abuse victim. Because you're going to react, you know, just like if somebody is like standing behind you at the grocery store and they're just cutting you a little bit, just tiny, tiny, tiny with an exacto knife, you're going to punch their lunch out. It's after telling them to stop

00:16:38:02 - 00:17:00:12
Lindsay Stoker
and everybody can say, yeah, yeah, because there's a, there's a visible scar with this. They're going to ask, what did you do to deserve it? And they're going to point to your reaction as to why you deserved it to begin with. And so I don't like I resist this a bit because I want to focus on where the fire is, which is it is overwhelmingly male against female.

00:17:00:12 - 00:17:27:04
Lindsay Stoker
And I want to focus on it. Like when you're talking to an audience, you want to talk to as many people as possible while being responsible for the message that you're conveying. And I, I personally, I don't want to convey that it is perfectly 5050, that it's a 5050 issue, that the homicide rates are as high for women as it is for men, or that it it is as severe,

00:17:27:04 - 00:17:41:09
Lindsay Stoker
you know, it's like if can we get like this problem sorted out? and then we will take care of the rest, like we resist all of it, you know? But it's like, where's the fire? Where's the emergency? Women die every day, you know, because of this.

00:17:41:11 - 00:18:06:02
Lisa Sonni
yeah, I. You're absolutely right. I think when we look at, you know, the idea of coercive control and you look at why it happens and why they're doing it, I think one thing that kind of has, like, hit me in the face repeatedly is, you know, that they know what they're doing by the fact that they hide it. Because if it was really just like women deserve to be controlled, what's the problem then they would just openly say, you can't go there, Lindsay, you can't do this.

00:18:06:07 - 00:18:28:12
Lisa Sonni
But instead they find these really, you know, creative ways. But if we're asking a better question because you talk about these questions that we get pushed back all the time, what happened before that, which is just a creative way to say, what did she do to deserve it? Of course. But like a better question to me is what happened when she didn't follow what he said, like what happened when she pushes against him?

00:18:28:12 - 00:18:57:07
Lisa Sonni
Because what abusers do is they make the cost of you making whatever choice you're going to make so high or so expensive metaphorically, that you choose what they would choose for your own safety. And I say safety, and I even mean emotional safety, because coercive control isn't just committed by men who will hit you or harm you physically, but the way that they get you to change your choices, and then you're almost policing yourself like you just know not to do certain things because of his reaction.

00:18:57:07 - 00:18:58:13
Lisa Sonni
That's coercive control.

00:18:58:18 - 00:19:40:09
Lindsay Stoker
Yeah we do. It's a self policing system. And, something interesting that I saw is that the prosecutions of coercive control, since they started in England ten years ago, has gone up 25 times. And it's not peak. Yeah. And it's not because we are 25 times more coercive. It's because more and more people are recognizing it or we, you know, we're giving language to what people have experienced the whole time, like, the term sexual harassment, you know, that didn't always exist.

00:19:40:09 - 00:20:03:15
Lindsay Stoker
It was a woman who was, I think she was at Cornell, was sexually harassed, and she, tried to get help. She try, you know, she wanted to, you know, switch departments. They said no, she resigned, and she wanted to get, you know, workers like unemployment. And they said, well, why like why would you why did you quit?

00:20:03:15 - 00:20:26:08
Lindsay Stoker
She didn't have words for it. And now we have words everywhere. And they settled on the term in a like a women's support group that it was also. Yeah. Yeah. And so the more that we share our experience like, yeah, I can meet you. That happened to me too, because this wasn't a thing. You know, ten years ago, I didn't I didn't know what coercive people asked me.

00:20:26:08 - 00:20:56:18
Lindsay Stoker
Like what? What kind of consent do you make them? I talk about I talked about the very beginning threads of control and coercive speech, but how it adds up into coercive control because it's not just the big things that we see, you know, the isolation and, you know, financial domination. You can't see your family, you know, getting you to quit your job because I'll take care of you, you know, constantly nitpicking every little thing that you do.

00:20:56:18 - 00:21:20:21
Lindsay Stoker
So you feel like you can't do everything right. It starts off as threads, that go into chords and then go into the ropes of coercive control. And it's like, the more that we can get people to recognize the threat level where somebody is forcing that hierarchy, where, yeah, they wrap it in plausible, deniable language. you know, to get you to accept it

00:21:20:21 - 00:21:45:12
Lindsay Stoker
because and the kind of plausible, deniable language it is, is it's something that's always like, societally accepted. You know, it's like morality or logic or, religion. People use religion a lot, or authority or something like that. And so you feel like by resisting what they're saying, you are resisting that frame itself. And that's why it's so much harder to see.

00:21:45:13 - 00:22:06:01
Lindsay Stoker
And so that's what I want to teach people, is to see that and then to see the function. It's like, get rid of the wrapping. What is it doing? You know what? How are they elevating themselves? Or sometimes they elevate themselves below you like, oh, I guess, you know, I'm just a horrible partner. So now you can't you can't challenge that because now you're a horrible person.

00:22:06:05 - 00:22:24:15
Lindsay Stoker
And then what is the long term harm? How is this compounding? It's like the sooner you can see the pattern it's just in different wrapping. You know, that's abuse. And and it adds up. It adds up adds up. And it's it was just like, that's the kind of coercion I saw as a court reporter. But that's what they're supposed to do.

00:22:24:19 - 00:22:42:12
Lindsay Stoker
They're doing their jobs like, I don't want to, you know, lawyers are wonderful people. they are just, you know, defending their client they're doing exactly what they were paid for. I don't count that as coercion, because this is an environment where, you know, there's a record, you know, so they can go back. They have my transcript, they can audit everything.

00:22:42:12 - 00:23:00:08
Lindsay Stoker
There's, you know, you have a lawyer that can object you it there's a judge that can rule or they will rule later. It's when they weaponize these tactics in a relationship where you can't defend yourself, the cost of defending yourself is too high. You know, there's no this is why when people record, their conversations are like, am I crazy because of

00:23:00:10 - 00:23:01:12
Lisa Sonni
this? [You just wanna feel sane]

00:23:01:17 - 00:23:32:06
Lindsay Stoker
Yeah. You want to feel safe and you feel they say, I. I didn't say that. You're remembering it wrong, you know, and it's the weaponization of those tactics in the bedroom. Which is why what I experience, I was like, and then after a while, I was like, wait a second, it's like, I think it's the same. Yeah. And it's just like, I think that the more that we can get people to see it at the very early stages, the more you know people we can get out of these situations before it accumulates.

00:23:32:08 - 00:23:45:23
Lindsay Stoker
When it's a lot of women find themselves in these situations where it's like, you have kids with them and, you know, you're financially dependent and you know, the friends and family that you would have relied on in the first place to get, you know, to get help out of that situation. He has conveniently gotten rid of them.

00:23:45:23 - 00:24:03:11
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. There's so there's this idea that, you know, we think control looks a certain way and it's hard to spot, which is kind of the point that when you still technically have a choice, how can you tell that it's control. And I think to me it it's a, it's a nuanced topic and there's a lot of context in it.

00:24:03:11 - 00:24:22:12
Lisa Sonni
Very gray. Like we want black and white answers, but this is kind of gray. How can you tell? It's like I can go out, but if I do go out, which is a decision I'm allowed to make, what's going to happen to me tomorrow? Is he going to stonewall me for three days? Is he going to make snippy comments and make me feel his anger?

00:24:22:15 - 00:24:50:00
Lisa Sonni
Is he going to cancel our dinner date tomorrow because last night I went out is okay? So where do they sort of strip things from you and and your life so you can still make the choice. But they've stripped pieces away of of normal niceties, basic human decency. So again, it's not like he comes home or you come home from being out with your friends and he, you know, hits you or screams at you or directly calls you names or tells you you can't do it again.

00:24:50:03 - 00:25:07:06
Lisa Sonni
There's a consequence attached to the choice. And that's what I mean when I was saying that there's a cost that's too high, you know that you can't do that. It makes it so. Yeah, hard. The way that they punish you is, is different. What have you seen in terms of the punishment that doesn't look like punishment?

00:25:07:11 - 00:25:33:15
Lindsay Stoker
What I see a lot is like not only punishments that don't look like punishment. Yeah. Like stonewalling or, you know, they I'd go out with their friends and then, you know, they don't. I would try to ask my ex for accountability, over the way he was treating me. And he would say, you are such, you know, a monster that I have to go and get a hotel for three days, you know, or something.

00:25:33:15 - 00:26:00:02
Lindsay Stoker
And they would leave and they do that on purpose, like, they like weaponizing, their friends and stuff like that. On purpose to keep you in line. And I think it's also the pattern because there are times when in relationships you have to give a little bit, each person has to give. And that's why it's so confusing is because it's kind of and sometimes that sometimes they will call you like, hey, where are you at?

00:26:00:07 - 00:26:17:16
Lindsay Stoker
You know, like you're you're out with your friends. But like, yeah, I would my it should be out until sometimes the next morning I'd be leaving for a deposition in Los Angeles and he'd be getting home. you know, I just had to, you know, get my sleep. But, like, if I were to call, you know, at 3 a.m., like, where are you?

00:26:17:16 - 00:27:03:18
Lindsay Stoker
Like, don't control me. Why are you being like, you know, like, there is accountability. Like you have to be a level of accountable. But it's like, is there a consistent pattern? Do you see this showing up over and over, you know, like them wielding authority over you in some way? Over and over and over in different environments and I don't even, look at, like, I, I don't like the intent debate, or I don't even like to look into their mind of what they intended, because I think some of these people, especially when we talk about covert narcissists, they might think that their intentions are good, but that doesn't mean that the impact on you is

00:27:03:18 - 00:27:21:00
Lindsay Stoker
non abusive. And that's part of also the disguise. Oh well I was just concerned about you. You know that was just part of the that's part of the rap. And that's why you know I well I don't like these friends that you go out with Lisa. That's why I call you constantly. I think they're a bad influence on you

00:27:21:00 - 00:27:44:20
Lindsay Stoker
that that isolation. And so it's like, dude, screw their intent. You know, it's like, let actually let's give them the benefit of the doubt. Like, okay, I'll just assume that you're a good guy and I'll assume that your intent is good. But the impact on me is that I'm constantly walking on eggshells I don't like. I just decline invitations to go out with my friends.

00:27:44:20 - 00:27:52:06
Lindsay Stoker
Now, you know, I'm narrowing my social circle. I'm narrowing my choices. I'm narrowing my worldview, my agency. That's abuse, If,

00:27:52:12 - 00:28:09:07
Lisa Sonni
you know, I never want interviews abuse know. So it's so connected to what you're describing, right? I'm just. Listen, it's just not safe out there. I don't know if it's safe for you to be out at bars with your friends, so you need to stay home. You know, you shouldn't be out past midnight. I need your location. Turn on your GPS location.

00:28:09:07 - 00:28:26:17
Lisa Sonni
I just care about you. I just want to make sure that I know where you are. Because I love you. I just [right[ I'm taking care of you. That's coercive control. Because the framing of it, which I find kind of interesting, my ex did something similar to that not so benevolent, let's say, but it was like reinforcement of good behavior.

00:28:26:22 - 00:28:43:17
Lisa Sonni
So for me, it was, you know, I'm so glad you're not one of those women that goes out and gallivants around and goes to bars. I love that I know where you are. And I was like, oh, that I'm the I'm a good, good girl. I'm a good woman. Instead of like, wait, what? That's weird. Like, what do you mean?

00:28:43:17 - 00:29:01:06
Lisa Sonni
You love that I'm the type of person that stays home? But plausible deniability. Because what did he really say? Like he likes that I don't go out that often. That's. I don't vote that often. So why is that a problem? But it was training me to want that little metaphorical pat on the head of you're one of these good women.

00:29:01:09 - 00:29:27:10
Lisa Sonni
I sort that out. It only relates to the benevolent abuse topic to me, just in that they're using positivity and sort of positive reinforcement and your kindness or their supposed kindness, but the intent doesn't matter, because when you look at the benevolent abuse piece like, let's again, we're going to fake give these men the benefit of the doubt just for a moment that he really thinks it's unsafe out of the world for a woman.

00:29:27:12 - 00:29:45:12
Lisa Sonni
It's already rooted in misogyny right there, and he just really wants to take care of you. The impact is still that you're being controlled. In order for him to feel like you're safe. So instead of him being a safe man for you and for other women, he becomes a controlling abuser to keep you safe. From who? Other controlling abusers?

00:29:45:16 - 00:29:47:19
Lisa Sonni
I don't get it right. You're not safe in your own home.

00:29:48:00 - 00:30:16:12
Lindsay Stoker
Yes, it's all wearing a care package. That. Yeah. How care can is absolutely consistently weaponized as a frame. And that in and of itself, you see how the hierarchy. Okay. Who's the judge? You know, of what appropriate of what you know, I should be doing? And on a side note, the ironic part is, like they say, that they don't like the girls that go out, that they love them.

00:30:16:14 - 00:30:44:02
Lindsay Stoker
They're the ones that go to bars. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but just hang out with the girls who like to go to bars and then don't, like, keep the other girl at home who do like she'd, you know, do whatever they agreed. But they, they they love that, but but the what? And I think the other thing that they love that is like, they love those kind of free spirited women and they love caging them. But yeah, but it's, it's that that is still a hierarchical move.

00:30:44:08 - 00:31:08:21
Lindsay Stoker
Who are who is he to say that one is better than the other? You know that going out with your friends to a bar is bad. Especially when he goes out with his guy friends. Absolutely. He is not like limiting his behavior or his autonomy or life choices. He just wants to limit yours under a care package. Like, it's just it's it's all it's all the same moves all the same.

00:31:09:01 - 00:31:34:00
Lindsay Stoker
Like wearing a different costume. And it's kind of just like what was ingrained, I think, in them socially growing up, you know, like, this is how I saw other people, you know, I thought this is how I saw my dad controlling my mom. This is, you know, what we're taught in religion. So If they have that proclivity to be controller. Oh, this is what I'm going to do to you because they've seen so many people get along with it.

00:31:34:00 - 00:31:47:23
Lindsay Stoker
And now I feel like us as a generation, we're like, NOOO MORE, you know, because we have so many. we have like so much more like so many more resources at our disposal, thank goodness. Like that. Previous generations didn't have.

00:31:48:02 - 00:32:09:19
Lisa Sonni
I'm so glad that we do. like my own example of not recognizing this for so long. It's because I wasn't directly punished. I didn't get hurt physically for doing things out of line, but there was some kind of consequence. Always. Every time or I was getting that reinforcement of constant approval. And so I never noticed that it was happening.

00:32:09:22 - 00:32:26:15
Lisa Sonni
And I feel like, you know, this is again where the conversation gets so nuanced, because if we use just like a really cheesy example, like he loves long hair, are you allowed to cut your hair short now? For example, I'm in a relationship now, and I know that he prefers long hair, but I also know that he wouldn't end our relationship.

00:32:26:15 - 00:32:46:17
Lisa Sonni
If I cut my hair, I wouldn't be punished. It might not be the thing he wants, but he would accept that I am an autonomous human and I can do what I want. And the same is for him. I prefer him with, you know, a 5:00 shadow. Well, sometimes he shaves his face, but if I punish him every time he shaves his face, that makes me a coercive controller.

00:32:46:21 - 00:33:02:01
Lisa Sonni
But I think, you know, I'm talking about that being even across the genders. Right? But it's not in these relationships. It's always the man detecting the woman. You have to first assume that men are dangerous to want to protect women from men, you know, but not all men, right? Brutal. Right?

00:33:02:03 - 00:33:29:10
Lindsay Stoker
Right. And a big thing you just talked about is like in these relationships, if you want to exercise your autonomy, which you like, obviously there's there's always there's give and take in relationships. But even when you're in a relationship, it is very essential that you still hold on to your autonomy and to like, you're like ability like to be who you are and to just be loved as the person that you are

00:33:29:15 - 00:34:04:03
Lindsay Stoker
and you know, the way that people lose themselves in these relationships is it's what you said. It's the what is the price, okay? You have your freedom, but what's the price of saying no or no? I'm going to do the opposite of what you said. You know, it's like, look one layer deeper and, that's why you can't you can't look at what the intent is because he and his enablers, and the people who are benefiting from this arrangement, they they don't want to look a layer deeper.

00:34:04:03 - 00:34:30:12
Lindsay Stoker
They just want to look at the surface. No, no, you're you're you're allowed. You're allowed to do those things. He didn't abuse you. You know. So this is why it's ignore them because they're they're going to keep acting like that and they're going to keep insisting and taking that abuser side, no matter how much. If you have direct proof, they're going to take their side anyway because they all benefit from this arrangement and from you being small and in a cage.

00:34:30:12 - 00:34:52:10
Lindsay Stoker
And it's no way for a human being to live, you should be able to push back and say, no. like and that gets into, you know, it's the the give and take of a relationship. I, you know, it's like, yeah, I think it's reasonable if I, as, a wife say, no, I don't want you out with your friends until 3 a.m. at bars.

00:34:52:12 - 00:35:14:03
Lindsay Stoker
but, you know, and some people say, well, no, that can be controlling you. It's this is where everybody is allowed to have preferences in relationships. And it's like you find somebody where you both like, give and take. You know, I'm going to self-police my behaviors this way, and I'll do it this way because I care about you. You know, I care about your feelings.

00:35:14:03 - 00:35:35:18
Lindsay Stoker
I care about their relationship. And, you know, if you're going to keep instead, keep threatening a person's autonomy. You know, it's like, this is how boundaries are, like, weaponized all the time. It's one thing to say this behavior doesn't work for me. And I, you know, I'm going to decide to leave the relationship. Because that's just my

00:35:35:21 - 00:35:44:11
Lindsay Stoker
I'm going to police myself. Like, our that's the biggest difference is, like, are they using the boundary to police themselves, or are they using the boundary boundary to police you?

00:35:44:13 - 00:36:05:13
Lisa Sonni
That's the part though, that I think is and actually this happened a couple of years ago, I feel like everyone saw this. I think the Jonah Hill with the surfer girlfriend. Yeah. There was a huge tech around, you know, he's allowed to have this, this boundary and it it really made me think about what some men think of as a boundary versus control.

00:36:05:17 - 00:36:24:05
Lisa Sonni
And I think that most of us who've experienced this were like, that's control. It was so clear the amount of men that kept saying he's allowed to have a boundary. And I'm like, but the boundary would be I don't want to be in a relationship with a woman who surfs in a bathing suit with other men. Now he's acting like she's not wearing a wetsuit, but not the point.

00:36:24:09 - 00:36:47:17
Lisa Sonni
I don't want to do that. Okay, then don't. But now you're in a relationship with a woman who was always a professional surfer, and you just create that boundary out of left field. And what that means is not that you don't want to. Therefore, you're going to end the relationship. You're saying, I'm going to end the relationship if you don't stop doing it, how is that not a threat like that is the literal definition of a threat.

00:36:47:19 - 00:37:05:11
Lisa Sonni
There's a difference between a preference even I prefer, and this is actually a fact about me. I prefer not to be in a relationship with a man who's out at bars at 3 a.m., but. So I don't date one, but is it controlling? Can I say that? No, it's not controlling, it's a preference. And if you reverse, the gender is still a preference.

00:37:05:13 - 00:37:24:01
Lisa Sonni
But where it becomes control is I'm not going to tell him that he can't, but I am going to punish him the next day. Every single time I'm going to be pissy for days and I'm going to make him know how mad I am that he didn't comply with my preference, you know? And then he will learn and he will police himself.

00:37:24:03 - 00:37:26:03
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, that's coercive control.

00:37:26:05 - 00:37:51:02
Lindsay Stoker
it's the weaponization of the abandonment. Yes. You know, and like, triggering like a lot of times childhood abandonment wounds. And that's. Yeah, it's like if he you need to know going, this is why you vet each other and it's perfectly fine during the dating process, say, you're a great person, that you're not for me. You know, we we just because it's like, meet my preferences.

00:37:51:04 - 00:38:10:12
Lindsay Stoker
I don't want a man that watches pornography. I've just. I've experienced too much. It's, you know, when it's like, I. I'll be single, you know, I don't care. I don't, you know, if it's, you know, it's like I'm not going to weaponize that later, you know? It's like, this is just my preference, you know, and it's like.

00:38:10:12 - 00:38:36:10
Lindsay Stoker
And there's always the give and take, you know, where it's like you're willing to, like, maybe, perhaps, like, make other concessions. But this is, this is part of, like, establishing preferences to begin with and like considering the other person's feelings. But in the end, knowing that it's just like it doesn't work for you. So therefore, I'm going to place myself, rather than threatening abandonment to try to police you.

00:38:36:12 - 00:39:00:21
Lindsay Stoker
do. I always think about the edge cases, especially like for people who are, in abusive situations, where if you can't leave and you're like, if you tell your partner, if you don't stop berating me, if you don't stop abusing me, I'm going to leave. And always think about the hierarchy. You know, and what like some people would, you know, sometimes you watch those debate shows and some people would frame that in terms of control.

00:39:00:21 - 00:39:23:18
Lindsay Stoker
It's like, no, the other person just doesn't want to be abused anymore. You know, that's how you explain, the edge case. It's like you always watch who is trying to impose hierarchy over the other. And yeah, Jonah was trying to impose a hierarchy that he love. And that's the funny thing, is that the thing that they hate you for later, they loved you for in the beginning,

00:39:23:18 - 00:39:45:17
Lindsay Stoker
I think there were text messages were Jonah's love that you're surfer... I think you slid into our DMs, you know, and I might be remembering this wrong, you know, and that's how we introduced, like, oh, you're, you know, you're such a bad [censored] or something like that. And then they do because they want the pretty bird, you know, that's like, free because they want, the ego boost of being able to cage that person. all of

00:39:45:17 - 00:40:04:01
Lisa Sonni
you said that. Right? Right from the beginning. They they literally want the free woman and they want to put her in the cage. There are women who prefer these traditional relationships. I mean, it's a dying breed, but there are so many women that want more traditional gender roles and are okay with following the leader and all that crap.

00:40:04:01 - 00:40:23:03
Lisa Sonni
Fine. Do that. Find those women. But no, they want to take free women. Yeah, make them the birds in a cage. That's how they get inside your decision, right? Right. They want you to police yourself. It's the same way that, you know, like a man might punch the wall, but not you to create fear. That's also coercive control, because now you're not afraid.

00:40:23:07 - 00:40:53:12
Lisa Sonni
You know that maybe he'll hit you, but that he'll hit something. Or that maybe you'll be next. Or you get nervous. And fear makes you make different choices, right? Right. You are suddenly afraid of whatever he might do feel, what what whatever anger he might display. Because anger is such a great tool for these abusers, as well as the approval and the positive reinforcement and just the plausible deniability that we're talking about, you start thinking like, right, okay, so let's say you get invited somewhere.

00:40:53:16 - 00:41:20:16
Lisa Sonni
You get invited to a dinner party with your friends before you even think if you want to go, you immediately think, oh, I can't. He's going to be so mad. He's going to be mad that I'm even asking to go, asking to go, you know? And his feeling came first. That's how women lose themselves and then they start just, you know, Lindsay, I, can't make it on Friday, and you come up with an excuse because the alternative is, Lindsay, my husband is really controlling, and I can't go instead of, like, oh, I'm sick.

00:41:20:16 - 00:41:30:08
Lisa Sonni
Oh, I have to work. Oh, my mom needs me. You don't want to admit that you're being controlled. Maybe you can't even admit it to yourself or don't recognize it yourself yet because it's so sneaky.

00:41:30:12 - 00:41:54:22
Lindsay Stoker
Yeah, it's it because it's like it's gradual. Like they start off and you just want to get to the beginning. It's like, so amazing in the beginning. But the beginning is fake. The beginning is just the installation for what's about to happen, you know, and then like, you know, the little the tests come, the little explosions, you know, but you're like, oh, okay, we'll just get back to the beginning, you know, like, that was just a bad day.

00:41:54:23 - 00:42:27:16
Lindsay Stoker
She had a bad day or work wherever. And then it just slowly erodes. But you don't see the slow erosion, because you're like a frog in boiling water. You know, where they they start to slowly, take back that the the love that they gave you in the beginning until you get to the end of their relationship, where a good day is not a day where, like, you're given emotional food or, you know, the things that you need, like to be in a relationship. A good day in an abusive relationship is just the absence of abuse.

00:42:27:18 - 00:42:52:22
Lindsay Stoker
Yeah. Yeah. it's like playing a video game, like playing Mario. And You didn't make a mistake. And that's where they want you to be because it's enormously beneficial if you're tiptoeing around their every whim and every possible and potential and future whim, and you're always catering to their needs. That's all I can see. Yeah, I can see why it's so beneficial.

00:42:52:22 - 00:43:11:14
Lindsay Stoker
And and that's why it's so hard to see when you're in it because it's so gradual. It's just like that slow erosion. And that's why it's like at a point, just take a stock of the relationship, you know, it's like, how do you feel in your nervous system day to day, you know, do you do you see this hierarchy?

00:43:11:18 - 00:43:32:02
Lindsay Stoker
You know, do you see like to get rid of however they're wrapping it, but like...What is it doing. What is that sentence doing? What is that action, what is that behavior doing? Is it changing your agency or getting you to conform in some way? It's abuse. It is abuse. And like we know from the data, we know from the coercive control data.

00:43:32:02 - 00:43:51:15
Lindsay Stoker
We like all of these experts. We know that it's it's extremely dangerous. And it's the biggest, indicator of lethality, it shows up in more intimate partner homicides than previous acts of physical harm itself. Because it's, you know, the physical, it's it's visible. Yeah. How

00:43:51:15 - 00:44:11:05
Lisa Sonni
completely terrifying. You know, I love that, that we're having this conversation and that we know that it's the biggest predictor of lethality because the women that are experiencing it who are thinking, he's not that bad. You know, he doesn't hit me. He it's like, what are the predictors? And we already know the answer, but what are the predictors of when things will get violent to me?

00:44:11:10 - 00:44:29:16
Lisa Sonni
And I know this to be true as a fact, that the guy that will punch the wall is the guy that will punch you eventually. The coercive controller is the guy that will take your life if you stay long enough, and nobody's staying by choice, right? This idea that women stay, they're just choosing to be in these relationships is crazy.

00:44:29:20 - 00:44:48:05
Lisa Sonni
I think most of the time women don't recognize it, and even when they do, I think there's a level of shock that really creates this paralysis. You're like, wait, what? This is abuse. He's controlling. Oh my God. And then you think, oh, well, now she'll leave. No, now she's going to do what we all do, which is say, well, why does he do that?

00:44:48:06 - 00:45:12:23
Lisa Sonni
Why? How can I help him? Would therapy help him? Oh he's entitled. Let me tell him that he's entitled. Let me tell him that he doesn't take accountability and see what he does with that. He's just going to gaslight you and deny it. And then what? Right. Like that you're you're stuck in this relationship, completely stuck. So I think there's a question that we should really be asking is like, how much freedom is left in our decision to do or not do something?

00:45:12:23 - 00:45:28:08
Lisa Sonni
If you're thinking, will I pay for this later? Will he feel rejected? Will this cause a fight? It's terrifying. Yeah, we just need to be able to recognize it. So this conversation is incredible. Is there anything that you want to sort of leave women with?

00:45:28:10 - 00:45:55:20
Lindsay Stoker
I think, like, just what you were saying is that a man who is entitled to either directly or indirectly control every aspect of your life, if they feel entitled to do that, many of them, the statistics show, feel entitled to end your life itself. Everything just it's the the control. It's the same engine operating in both circumstances.

00:45:55:22 - 00:46:30:21
Lindsay Stoker
And, like, I think it's really easy for other people, you know, to pretend to be in their situation and think, you know, we think of like the responses to threat. There's fight or flight or fawn. And a lot of these women have to be in the fawn response, to keep themselves safe. And if you, an outsider, thinks that they would fight back, try like actually putting yourself in their situation and, I bet you, you know, $1 million that like, your your reaction would be different.

00:46:30:21 - 00:46:46:11
Lindsay Stoker
And it's it's not their fault. However, however they're reacting it to try to keep themselves safe. That is a valid reaction. But I encourage you to look at the trend and the patterns and if you can, to make a plan to get out.

00:46:46:15 - 00:46:54:23
Lisa Sonni
People can work with me for that. But find a therapist, a coach, someone qualified to help you get out of this. Where can people find you? Where can people find your book?

00:46:55:05 - 00:47:22:12
Lindsay Stoker
Yes. Okay, so, I'm the control code on, Instagram. It's like the_control_code on like TikTok and Instagram. That's where my biggest audiences are. I'm building on YouTube and Facebook, and I released a, short version of my book to just get the tool so you can diagnose it early, like right now. I wanted to write a way for regular people like you and me to diagnose the very early signs of control

00:47:22:12 - 00:47:40:00
Lindsay Stoker
and that's what I built. And so there is a field, a short field guide manual. But I am, I'm looking for like to get the long form published. So, you know, it's not just existing like for TikTok and Instagram. These audiences like it'd be dream to be in a bookstore. Yeah. So that's there if I'm. Yeah.

00:47:40:02 - 00:47:56:21
Lisa Sonni
Amazing. Well, people please go follow and learn all about coercive control because this is, like we said, a very big predictor of lethality. And really, the more we talk about this, the more we have language, the more we can name it, the more we can get out of relationships. Like this. Thank you so much for being here.

00:47:57:02 - 00:47:59:21
Lindsay Stoker
Yes. Thank you Lisa, this is great.

00:47:59:23 - 00:48:09:08
Lisa Sonni
If this episode gave you clarity. Share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember, you're stronger than before.

00:48:09:10 - 00:48:13:14
Music
Stronger than before.